Can't get too excited about this. This new tower belongs on NW Expressway, not in the middle of the CBD downtown. What an opportunity wasted for such an important piece of property.

And mark my word. Nothing is ever completed as promised. Plans are always cut down. We'll end up with an 8-10 story building downtown and the residential/hotel will be cut from the plans. Just keeping it real.

I really hope they incorporate LED lighting to compliment Devon, the Crystal Bridge and Skydance Bridge.

I like how all three are bathed in Thunder blue on game days and I know there is coordination / synching functionality between the Myriad Gardens and Devon. Need to make sure that any new buildings have the same features.

They better have an advanced ornate LED lighting system. After all, we are talking about an energy company company, right?

The lack of activity on this thread speaks volumes to the quality of this project in relation to its expectations. Its nearly halfway down the first page, and people have literally waited YEARS for this announcement.

The 2 most exciting aspects of the entire project are A. it has "green space" on top of the parking garage, even though its right next to the best park in the city and soon the soon to be Maps park. So....? and B. it may have a urban target at street level. A target... SMH. Going to a target in my life has never made me excited. Ever. I get it will be nice for people living downtown, but the excitement of that will wear off in a few weeks time.

There is basically zero excitement surrounding the actual "tower" aspect.I actually really agree with you now. At first I liked it, but every time I see it, it is just underwhelming. The Stage Center is worth more than this tower. imo.

^This. What would be better, downtown as it is now or take the 11 tallest buildings and replacing them with 10 story buildings but keeping the same amount of space? These 11 building would become 32 buildings all between 100 and 150 feet tall, plus all the other buildings downtown that were not in the top 11. Downtown's tallest would be 101 Park Ave (former Sonic bldg.) at 180' but there would be some awesome street-level density. Think Madison, WI.

I mentioned this before but Stage Center could easily fit 5 towers.Hell no!

I think jccouger has a point.

I think the this new tower would have had to be some type of award winning design for me not to be disappointed by it. O well I guess the Stage Center will soon be added to the building that shouldn't have been demolished along with The Biltmore and The Criterion. O well at least it's not a parking lot. :eek:

Yeah I also tend to agree this project is way below expectations. The more I think about it, the more I am growing cold to it. Its unreal that we waited two years and are demolishing the most unique landmark in the city for a 14 story tower. A lot of people are excited about the possibility of a Target on its first floor, but I would MUCH rather a Midtown Grocery in Midtown. I personally like the tower, don't get me wrong, but I am not sure its worth losing the Stage Center for. It's also rather embarrassing that we've had hundreds of pages of speculation and hype to only end up with a 14 story tower, not much different than the Valiance Bank tower. How about building this as an anchor in the SoSA district which is currently extremely dilapidated and also the missing piece of the puzzle that will tie downtown in with Midtown?

Yes, this site repurposed, plus new bodies going into the present OGE space, is a considerable improvement over DT as it sits today. It fits well with the other changes in the area, and compared to a closed, decaying building ... not even questionable. Even the non-profit that is no longer saddled with a structure too expensive to repair, and dang expensive to let sit and rot, is far better off for having sold the property.

And for comparing to FNB, oh, puhlease, not even an apples and onions comparison. FNB may be a somewhat browned apple that folks keep reaching past for something else, but let's be real. The SC building may have once been all moma nd apple pie, but it's now not merely far far beyond edible, it is out back, at the dumpsters. Even flies were already saying hey, let's go hang out at some long unserviced portapotty rather then hang around the corpse like structure that SC became.

Yeah I also tend to agree this project is way below expectations. The more I think about it, the more I am growing cold to it. Its unreal that we waited two years and are demolishing the most unique landmark in the city for a 14 story tower. A lot of people are excited about the possibility of a Target on its first floor, but I would MUCH rather a Midtown Grocery in Midtown. I personally like the tower, don't get me wrong, but I am not sure its worth losing the Stage Center for. It's also rather embarrassing that we've had hundreds of pages of speculation and hype to only end up with a 14 story tower, not much different than the Valiance Bank tower. How about building this as an anchor in the SoSA district which is currently extremely dilapidated and also the missing piece of the puzzle that will tie downtown in with Midtown?I couldn't agree more, this whole thing is turning out to be a joke. I mean 14 stories????? Really. . . . don't even know why I liked it at all. At least 30 stories would've been alright, but this thing sucks.

Again, I would prefer keeping the Stage Center over this. A portion of the money being spent on this could be spent on saving the Stage Center and this thing could go in some underdeveloped lot in Bricktown, Midtown, Film Row, etc. Not in the CBD or C2S

Please point me in the direction of the forum rule book that says all posts must have rainbows and unicorns bursting from them.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TfEcLSNKT0U/T4T1z-6PBKI/AAAAAAAAA38/yO557JREm4I/s1600/apr+10+post+Rainbows_and_Unicorns_by_KosReD.jpg

Listen, I think we can all agree that this tower is an improvement over the stage center. But that does not mean it IS WORTH losing the stage center over. Let me ask you a hypothetical question.

Say a new company decides to move in to town, they release plans to build a giant 50 story tower in downtown Oklahoma City that rivals Devon in beauty, elegance and functionality, butttttt, they bought the land First National resides on and the building must be razed to build their new tower. Sure the new tower would be BETTER than First National but would you be willing to let go of that historic landmark JUST BECAUSE what would be replacing it is better?

Yeah there is no comparison between FNB and the Stage Center.

I couldn't agree more, this whole thing is turning out to be a joke. I mean 14 stories????? Really. . . . don't even know why I liked it at all. At least 30 stories would've been alright, but this thing sucks.

Again, I would prefer keeping the Stage Center over this. A portion of the money being spent on this could be spent on saving the Stage Center and this thing could go in some underdeveloped lot in Bricktown, Midtown, Film Row, etc. Not in the CBD or C2S

Agreed, its not worth a 14-16 floor building in the CBD, there plenty of spaces nearby where this cpuld be better suited and successful'.

There is as much comparison between stage center and fnc as there is a new 50 story devolpment comparable to devon and the building proposed for stage center. Scales, dude. And plus, I was just using just because something is better than something, it doesn't mean you should have to lose the lesser.

Agreed, its not worth a 14-16 floor building in the CBD, there plenty of spaces nearby where this cpuld be better suited and successful'.Yeah, and worse off, I fear we might end with a scaled down version of something like 10 stories. This building is minuscule and not worthy of leveling the Stage Center. I really think we will be sorry one day.

There is as much comparison between stage center and fnc as there is a new 50 story devolpment comparable to devon and the building proposed for stage center. Scales, dude. And plus, I was just using just because something is better than something, it doesn't mean you should have to lose the lesser.

I get what you were trying to say, but no way. Scale or no scale, there is no comparison. No clear thinking person would ever suggest any development, no matter how big or expensive, would be an adequate replacement for FNC. There is no adequate replacement for first national. The stage center on the other hand...

People, calm down, we really need to wait until final designs are complete. I have seen some quality 15-20 story office projects. It's all about the design and programming of the office tower and site. Its about quality not quantity. If this project ends up being a 16 and 12 story LEED certified Silver, Gold, or Platinum high rises, I say its a win.

Exactly how long has downtown been revitalized? Maybe 10 or so years? I believe we haven't given the stage center a chance to be revitalized. There was a longgggggg time where nothing downtown was useful, and that's why the excuse of saying the stage center hasn't been used for a long time is flawed. A LOT of buildings downtown that are useful today weren't useful for DECADES. What makes you people think that the Stage Center couldn't be redeveloped eventually, much like how the Skirvin was? Heck even bricktown? I just don't get tearing down a one of a kind structure that still has plenty of use left.

Yes, this site repurposed, plus new bodies going into the present OGE space, is a considerable improvement over DT as it sits today. It fits well with the other changes in the area, and compared to a closed, decaying building ... not even questionable. Even the non-profit that is no longer saddled with a structure too expensive to repair, and dang expensive to let sit and rot, is far better off for having sold the property.

And for comparing to FNB, oh, puhlease, not even an apples and onions comparison. FNB may be a somewhat browned apple that folks keep reaching past for something else, but let's be real. The SC building may have once been all moma nd apple pie, but it's now not merely far far beyond edible, it is out back, at the dumpsters. Even flies were already saying hey, let's go hang out at some long unserviced portapotty rather then hang around the corpse like structure that SC became.

^ This - a few of these other post on this page sound like buyers remorse. How about all the naysayers here pool their money, buy out Rainy Williams site, and do something different.....welcome to the real world.

Regarding the disappointment in the lack of height for this project, it's understandable.

98% of the people in OKC don't care about street interaction or other urbanism concepts but all can see and appreciate a tall building as a clear sign of progress, growth and vitality. Absolutely everyone I know in town knew about Devon Tower and virtually no one knows about the Parkside Building. It's just the way it works.

A city's face is it's downtown skyline. Every single article about OKC shows downtown; every NBA telecast focuses on Devon and the other tall structures.

So, when you are hoping for a 30-story or taller structure and you are giving up a building that many deeply admire and all this fronts on the city's main park that has been built and improved with hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars, you have to respect the backlash when you see renderings of a building no taller than several on NW Expressway.

I'm disappointed, too. It's a missed opportunity to grow, modernize and balance our skyline. It's also the first big development after Devon, where we had all openly proclaimed "the bar has been raised!" with excited references to what happened in Charlotte when their first very tall building was erected.


I like that the project fully utilizes the block and that we may get as many as three mid-rise buildings out of this, but I doubt many people -- even the most ardent urbanist -- would rather have that than one 40-story, iconic building that still relates well to everything around it. Tall and engaging at street level are far from mutually exclusive concepts.


Now that I've digested this for a few days, I do have one other pretty big gripe: There is very little for the public here. One restaurant space on the ground floor? That's it??

Many don't like that Devon is set back from the street but they do provide a very nice public park, an excellent dining patio, tons of fountains and beautiful hardscape, all the open common space in the rotunda and garden wing, Nebu & Aravalli and the dining areas on the ground floor, Vast and the related banquet facilities on the 49th & 50th floors. They have installed amazing Christmas decorations and have hosted all kinds of events (Saturday with Santa going on today, in fact) IN their facilities.

So -- unless this project changes drastically -- we'll have a ground floor restaurant or two looking out on the street with a glimpse of the park behind. You can bet the conference center (fourth floor and over looking the park) will not be open to the general public. Hope I'm wrong on that, but I doubt I am.

No big open public space indoors, no grand lobby or rotunda... Perhaps the green roof will be open but I wouldn't count on that. And in any event, the park view will be completely blocked by the OG&E building.


So, what does the community get in exchange for bulldozing an at least somewhat respected and loved piece of architecture? A pretty much private HQ for OG&E and maybe (maybe!) some other smaller buildings, which in any case will not face, provide views of or interact with the park.


None of this is the end of the world but if any of us were going to draw up what we wanted from this project, almost nothing -- other than street interaction, and even that is not fantastic -- looks to have been satisfied.

The stage center needs to be removed but there needs to be a real skyscraper built there. This 14 story building should be over by Regency if they want to stay in the area or move it to the Expressway area. It's crazy to think that everybody waited all this time for a 14 story building to be built on prime land in downtown. Hard to get excited about this.

There were other groups bidding to purchase this land. Do we know what their plans were? Maybe they should sell this property before they make a huge mistake and build this small building there.

<3

That brought a tear to my eye, Pete. IF we are losing an Oklahoma City Icon, WE DESERVE BETTER. I've said this many times before, I do not mind losing the stage center if we would be replacing it with something of huge magnitude. This project does not even come close as is. Even if you do not enjoy the Stage Center personally you should love thy neighbor, respect your OKC brothers and sisters, and understand that losing the stage center for this project as it currently stands would be a complete failure of the lessons we have had to learn from our tragic past. Lessons are for exams, and if allowing the stage center to be torn down for this was the exam we would all get an F.

You know, sometimes life isn't all about what is best monetarily. Sometimes you need to slow down and smell the roses and enjoy the beauty in life. I graduated college with a business degree, so I understand money runs the world. That does not mean it is the most important thing to life. I probably will have zero say in the eventual outcome of this situation, but this is a message board and I'm going to post my opinion whether its popular or not.

Honestly, let's not let Sonic be one of the only headquarters in Bricktown. Move this project over between Sheridan and Reno on the west face of Lincoln. Get rid of that collision auto center and anchor East Bricktown with a 14 story headquarters. This project would look better there and keep the SC site open for REAL skyward development. Anything that is taller than 5 stories is going to block the sun from the MBG especially if its a wide structure as currently proposed. Might as well seek a tall and slender project on that site that is worthy of destroying what many think is an icon.

If this was 16 stories with a fantastic atrium/rotunda with tons of restaurants and retail and an urban Target and other cool things for the public that helped activate the awesome Myriad Gardens, then the height would be less important.

But this is amounting to a private HQ for a public utility company, and not a very tall or grand one at that. A company that requires privacy in a building with a one-level, small lobby and no other real public space.

I hope whoever is involved in the final design is reading this thread because they are getting ready to go to battle for the demolition permit and I don't see a lot people getting excited about this proposed project that will go in it's place. And this from a bunch of urban development fanboys! :)

Lots of people think that a grass lot would be an improvement over the stage center

Does anyone on here know anyone that will grant approval to this project? Email them this thread--but be sure to tell them to start at page (whenever the first dismal announcement was made and read on from there).

I was just thinking about how many times I've been into First National Center, Leadership Square and Devon Energy Center. Way too many to count, because they all offer lots of interior gathering spaces and restaurants and services.

Now, how many times have any of us been in the Kerr McGee / SandRidge Tower? I've been in a total of one time, and that was a specifically arranged private tour by their PR people about a year ago.

Heck, I don't even live in OKC and I've been in Devon dozens of times: lunch and breakfast at Nebu, coffee and gelato at Aravalli, just stopped in to use their restrooms and look around, had drinks at Vast, held my class reunion on the 50th floor, sat in the park, met with friends.

How many times will I ever go into this project?? Perhaps if it has a good restaurant but whatever they put in the ground floor could never compare to the settings at Vast, Flint, Park House or even Nebu.


Yes, of course it will be good to have this property developed and get more tax dollars but that would happen no matter what is built here. Other than that basic benefit, what is in this for the community??

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, so glad to see the SC building go and something more "aesthetically" pleasing in it's place. Stage Center is not worth preserving and has to many structural and damage to make it feasible to rehabilitate. In addition, the outside of the building is quite ugly. Stained concrete, sheet rock colored metal, nothing polished or pleasing to the eye. I could care less about the height or structure of the OG&E building as this is not a deal breaker. It has great curb appeal and street interaction. Besides, that corner needs a more "polished" modern look. No love lost for the Stage Center as far as my opinion, however, I know many want the structure saved but it is not economically feasible and too cost prohibitive.

Yeah, and worse off, I fear we might end with a scaled down version of something like 10 stories. This building is minuscule and not worthy of leveling the Stage Center. I really think we will be sorry one day.

I am afraid this may end up happening. When has a building ever been scaled up from the initial rendering? It is usually scaled down. Even the Devon Tower, which is an awesome skyscraper, was scaled down from what was originally envisioned. We may end up losing the Stage Center for an 8-10 story gray box.

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, so glad to see the SC building go and something more "aesthetically" pleasing in it's place. Stage Center is not worth preserving and has to many structural and damage to make it feasible to rehabilitate. In addition, the outside of the building is quite ugly. Stained concrete, sheet rock colored metal, nothing polished or pleasing to the eye. I could care less about the height or structure of the OG&E building as this is not a deal breaker. It has great curb appeal and street interaction. Besides, that corner needs a more "polished" modern look. No love lost for the Stage Center as far as my opinion, however, I know many want the structure saved but it is not economically feasible and too cost prohibitive.

Was the Century Center really more aesthetically pleasing than the Baum Building and the Criterion theatre? Maybe by the standards of 1970s modernist architecture, but looking back on it we can see it was a monumental mistake that OKC is still paying the price for 40 years later. I am afraid 30 years from now people will be saying the same thing about the Stage Center.

<3

That brought a tear to my eye, Pete. IF we are losing an Oklahoma City Icon, WE DESERVE BETTER. I've said this many times before, I do not mind losing the stage center if we would be replacing it with something of huge magnitude. This project does not even come close as is. Even if you do not enjoy the Stage Center personally you should love thy neighbor, respect your OKC brothers and sisters, and understand that losing the stage center for this project as it currently stands would be a complete failure of the lessons we have had to learn from our tragic past. Lessons are for exams, and if allowing the stage center to be torn down for this was the exam we would all get an F.

You know, sometimes life isn't all about what is best monetarily. Sometimes you need to slow down and smell the roses and enjoy the beauty in life. I graduated college with a business degree, so I understand money runs the world. That does not mean it is the most important thing to life. I probably will have zero say in the eventual outcome of this situation, but this is a message board and I'm going to post my opinion whether its popular or not.

I completely agree with this. I don't particularly like the Stage Center, but it is unique and iconic. I would be supportive of replacing it if the replacement was worthy, but this project falls short, very short. The way OKC always seems to be eager to destroy its architectural landmarks is one of the reasons so many people perceive this city as a cultural and characterless wasteland.

Lots of people think that a grass lot would be an improvement over the stage centerLots of people don't know what they're talking about either.

IF this is built exactly as in the renderings it should be ok, but only ok not great. But if we get the far too common overpromise / underdeliver pattern of OKC development, we have a big problem. I hadn't thought about it essentially being an OG&E bunker until Pete's post and that has tempered my initial impression of the design. I am not crazy over Stage Center but acknowledge it is an architecturally significant structure so we should expect its replacement to contribute the private AND public environment.

How about moving the private OG&E structure to the north or west side of the block and putting a hotel or something remotely publicly accessible facing the park??

Devon went to tremendous lengths to make their HQ (and Colcord!) open and inviting and the very next project on the park is the complete opposite?


Remember, the whole Project 180 pitch was focused on spending hundreds of millions of public money to attract NEW companies downtown. This project does not represent that, in fact OG&E was looking for a new downtown HQ before Project 180.

So, now their employees get to benefit from the massive investment in the park (and downtown elementary school) and everyone else is effectively cut-off from what was a public art space previously?


This has gone from a huge private development with lots of promise to what appears to be a private HQ for a public utility with little else for the community.

I am not a Stage Center lover but considering that will be sacrificed, I don't think this is good enough.


And if this is going to be significantly better/different than proposed, you have to think they would have included the best-case scenario when seeking a demolition permit.

Even if there is a 8-12 story residential or hotel building included (which seems far from assured), that's the best we can hope for, with absolutely no view or interaction with the park.

That's why I hope the previously released renderings are just conceptual and nothing more. They're going to need to up their game and come out with real renderings to deem the stage center even close to being demolished.

Can us public go to this meeting in January and give our input? I'd really hate for the city to make a huge mistake because they're blinded by the ambition of the mega corporation...

Great points Pete. The "proposed" hotel/residential structure seems slapped on as an afterthought almost. If the design is revised to encourage more public interaction, the somewhat low overall height becomes less negative. Just hard to know either way from these initial conceptual drawings. It could turn out far better, or much worse. But once the Stage Center is demolished to make way for construction, the likelihood of significant improvements goes down and revisions on the negative side become more likely I am afraid.

Also, unless the Cox Center is demolished -- far from a certainty -- this is only one of TWO available spots on the park, the other being directly south.

The Convention Center is going to take everything else.

So we only have two shots to interact with the park and leverage the massive amount of public investment there. And this is what we get? A company already located downtown who was going to stay down there anyway long before the P180 stuff or the announcement of the elementary school.

No views of the park at all from this development, at least none that will be seen by non OG&E employees.

And it's directly across from the school which you think would be part of an awesome incentive package to get a NEW company with NEW jobs to build in this spot.


I'd be more understanding if this was at least for Enable, because they are new and could potentially bring tons of new jobs to OKC.

I am afraid this may end up happening. When has a building ever been scaled up from the initial rendering? It is usually scaled down. Even the Devon Tower, which is an awesome skyscraper, was scaled down from what was originally envisioned. We may end up losing the Stage Center for an 8-10 story gray box.

Wrong. Initial reports from Devon were that it would be around 30-35 stories.

If OKC development history is any indication, we may end up with a 10 story OG&E gray box with no character at all, no green roof, no hotel/residential and no street interaction.

Before you say I am just being negative, compare the initial concept designs for Lower Bricktown and the Belle Isle Shopping Center to what was actually built.

Wrong. Initial reports from Devon were that it would be around 30-35 stories.

When they first unveiled the model and made the official announcement, Devon was to be 55 stories.

They later cut it down because they decided to keep some IT functions outside of downtown.

Wrong. Initial reports from Devon were that it would be around 30-35 stories.

Was there ever a rendering showing that though? The initial reports were that this building would be at least 20 stories, possibly 30 and right from the get go we are looking at a tower that is half that.

I wonder what the other groups that were bidding on this site wanted to build?

Wrong. Initial reports from Devon were that it would be around 30-35 stories.

Yes, it was thought to be 30-35 stories, which was great because Chase is 36 and we knew the floor heights would be built taller. Then when the model came out with the 925' height, we were all blown away. Then ya lose 81' but by then it doesn't matter cause its still taller than anything else downtown.

This project just leaves a bad taste in your mouth...

I think the point here is the proposal we are seeing is somewhat of a best case scenario.

We know the office tower won't be much taller and it could be shorter. Nothing is remotely definite on anything other than a parking garage.


Remember, all this came out as part of the application they filed for the demolition of Stage Center. I'm sure this is all the committee is going to see before making their decision.

I am bit surprised to see how negative the reactions have turned on this, in just 2 days no less.

It had pretty good street interaction, now it doesn't?

Height wasn't a big deal, now it's too short and should be on Memorial or NWX?

The plans are fluid and could change, now we can definitely say it will be trimmed back?

I'm really confused. What has changed here?

^

For me, time to reflect and think about the bigger picture.

Also, the realization this will be little more than a private building for OG&E.

I am bit surprised to see how negative the reactions have turned on this, in just 2 days no less.

It had pretty good street interaction, now it doesn't?

Height wasn't a big deal, now it's too short and should be on Memorial or NWX?

The plans are fluid and could change, now we can definitely say it will be trimmed back?

I'm really confused. What has changed here?Same thing as Pete. I have had time to really think about it and all the hype kind of got to me and I thought it was good enough, but now I realize it is not nor is anywhere close.

There are tons of vacant lots all over downtown, seriously, a building like this has plenty of possible homes, not right in the CBD next to an awesome park. We need a building of at least 35 stories(I would like to see 60+, but I'm trying to be realistic), that compliments the area, not this 14 story HQ that might have a grocery store and a restaurant. If that is the selling point and people accept it, then that is really sad.

Lots of people think that a grass lot would be an improvement over the stage center

And every single one of those persons is being nothing less than asinine. That might be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum.

I think some candor and honesty are needed here.

Nobody really knows what else was proposed here for the Stage Center. There is a thought process on here that someone was proposing building the next Burj Khalifa on this site and lost out. I have my doubts (btw whoever said some have gotten emotionally attached to this devlopment are spot on). And given the nugget that this building was going to be taller because it was going to be about half spec space and yet they couldn't make it work makes me have my doubts that there is a crushing need for class A office space downtown. No doubt it is a healthy market and space is tight, but most companies DT are smaller firms and are looking for a floor or two worth of space. At the risk of sounding like an Ayn Rand fanboy, you can only build what the market allows.

And this notion that everything downtown's prime spots need to be at least 35 stories....I guarantee you if this thought process takes hold in city hall that will be the beginning of the end of any sort of large scale urban development in the CBD. At 35 stories, that would easily be the second tallest building in the city. Would NYC limit development in Manhattan to a height no less then the Empire State Building? This isn't about "settling for less", certainly not suggesting that any old crap just be put anywhere. But in mid sized cities there are a plethora of midrise office buildings that add to the fabric of their CBD's. The question should be does a development give back to the general area in terms of interaction.

The concern on whether this will be just a private HQ building is a fair one. So far I am impressed with the conceptual drawings, but I will withhold judgement until plans are finalized.

I don't think it's fair to base development in OKC to development in NYC...just sayin'.

My biggest problem is I have no reason to trust that things are going to turn out well for this project. The problem started when Williams couldn't stand by his own word about further announcements on the project, and that when he finally did come through 2 months behind his own established schedule, his first announcement had previously oversold this current delivery.

Maybe downtown is not ready for a $250M+ development yet, and that's fine, but we need to avoid using prime spots to do these. Not a single person would be complaining about this project if it were on 4th and Hudson. Everyone here would be balls to the wall excited, even if it was originally sold as a 30 story building and was scaled back down to this. Literally just about any other site in OKC, I don't think anybody would have any qualms.

As several have said, this is one of the most important pieces of property in downtown OKC, and while this project has some nice urban principles and has a chance to be something enjoyable for OKC, it is closer to the "total failure" end of the spectrum than it is to the "world class" end. To be sure it's well between those two, but if Rainey Williams and OKC think this fits any rational definition of world-class (his words), then we are so much further behind than I ever imagined.

I think some candor and honesty are needed here.

Nobody really knows what else was proposed here for the Stage Center. There is a thought process on here that someone was proposing building the next Burj Khalifa on this site and lost out. I have my doubts (btw whoever said some have gotten emotionally attached to this devlopment are spot on). And given the nugget that this building was going to be taller because it was going to be about half spec space and yet they couldn't make it work makes me have my doubts that there is a crushing need for class A office space downtown. No doubt it is a healthy market and space is tight, but most companies DT are smaller firms and are looking for a floor or two worth of space. At the risk of sounding like an Ayn Rand fanboy, you can only build what the market allows.

And this notion that everything downtown's prime spots need to be at least 35 stories....I guarantee you if this thought process takes hold in city hall that will be the beginning of the end of any sort of large scale urban development in this city. At 35 stories, that would easily be the second tallest building in the city. Would NYC limit development in Manhattan to a height no less then the Empire State Building? This isn't about "settling for less", certainly not suggesting that any old crap just be put anywhere. But in mid sized cities there are a plethora of midrise office buildings that add to the fabric of their CBD's. The question should be does a development give back to the general area in terms of interaction.

The concern on whether this will be just a private HQ building is a fair one. So far I am impressed with the conceptual drawings, but I will withhold judgement until plans are finalized.

Steve Lackmeyer did drop hints that he is tracking another tower and a possible third tower in development. If these two other towers are building out spec space, then it is likely that competing projects reduced the scope and size of the Rainey Williams development. So downtown office space is likely still pretty hot in demand if what Lackmeyer is saying pans out. I am personally not disappointed with this development. Why? Because I would like to see as much mid rise development as I would high rise. We lost a lot of beautiful mid rises during the wrecking-ball spree of the 1970s, so I would like to see some of that return to our skyline, be it 14 or 20 floors. I have no doubt we will see at least one 30+ story tower before the decade is finished.

And this notion that everything downtown's prime spots need to be at least 35 stories....I guarantee you if this thought process takes hold in city hall that will be the beginning of the end of any sort of large scale urban development in the CBD.

This site, given the massive public investment on both sides and the fact it will occupy only one of two prime spots left on the garden's perimeter, should bring at least ONE of these aspects:

1. Be tall enough to add to the skyline (25+ stories) in a way that impresses citizens and visitors alike that OKC is growing and moving up in the world
2. Have a fantastic interaction with the park and a good amount of truly public space that will benefit the entire community, draw and engage more people into the park, etc.
3. Bring a new company and new jobs to downtown


This has NONE of those things. I think most people would have settled for any one and truthfully, given what the City is losing and what has been invested all around, there is a strong argument for requiring all three.

Otherwise, hold the property until these things can happen. OCURA could buy it; it was only $4.275 million and they are running around buying up far less important properties near the not-even-built Central Park. Stage Center has been sitting largely vacant for decades, what is the big rush here?


Let's put it this way, if from the beginning it was obvious that Stage Center was going to be demolished for a company that is already downtown and not planning to grow in any significant way, that the building will be virtually private and that it be no taller than 16 stories, do you think anyone would have been behind this project from the outset?

Or, don't you think people would all say: "No, we need something better in this special spot before we destroy something unique and valuable."


Frankly, this just isn't good enough in virtually any aspect -- not for this site.

Go build it at Hudson & Kerr and people would probably be okay with it.

So, are there any ordinances or other legal means to enforce this, or is this all just opinions, valid as they may be?

So, are there any ordinances or other legal means to enforce this, or is this all just opinions, valid as they may be?

There is a public process here where 1) they have to receive approval to demolish Stage Center; and 2) where the final design has to be approved by the Downtown Design Review Committee (same group that will review the demo app).

Citizens are welcome to contact the committee members and attend and speak at the meetings.

Also, there is a big "Save the Stage Center" initiative where they are collecting signatures on a petition and will certainly present a coordinated opposition to the demo.

Here is the Save the Stage Center petition:

http://www.change.org/petitions/oklahoma-city-downtown-design-review-committee-preserve-stage-center

OK, but without written standards, any blockage of what I see in the renderings seems to stand a huge chance of being found arbitrary and capricious.

OK, but without written standards, any blockage of what I see in the renderings seems to stand a huge chance of being found arbitrary and capricious.

Yes, from a design standpoint.

Not necessarily true in terms of demolition.

OK, thanks for the clarification.

I think some candor and honesty are needed here.

Nobody really knows what else was proposed here for the Stage Center. There is a thought process on here that someone was proposing building the next Burj Khalifa on this site and lost out. I have my doubts (btw whoever said some have gotten emotionally attached to this devlopment are spot on). And given the nugget that this building was going to be taller because it was going to be about half spec space and yet they couldn't make it work makes me have my doubts that there is a crushing need for class A office space downtown. No doubt it is a healthy market and space is tight, but most companies DT are smaller firms and are looking for a floor or two worth of space. At the risk of sounding like an Ayn Rand fanboy, you can only build what the market allows.

And this notion that everything downtown's prime spots need to be at least 35 stories....I guarantee you if this thought process takes hold in city hall that will be the beginning of the end of any sort of large scale urban development in the CBD. At 35 stories, that would easily be the second tallest building in the city. Would NYC limit development in Manhattan to a height no less then the Empire State Building? This isn't about "settling for less", certainly not suggesting that any old crap just be put anywhere. But in mid sized cities there are a plethora of midrise office buildings that add to the fabric of their CBD's. The question should be does a development give back to the general area in terms of interaction.

The concern on whether this will be just a private HQ building is a fair one. So far I am impressed with the conceptual drawings, but I will withhold judgement until plans are finalized. Agree! Thanks for an "objective" point of view. Some people seem to have gotten to emotionally attached concerning this development. These same people would gripe and complain if it was an iconic 60 story tower with stunning views and architecture. Living in Dallas, there are several mid rises either breaking ground or proposed and the residents are not complaining at all. Once again, i dare say, tear down that ugly, hideous structure of Stage Center!!!

As several have said, this is one of the most important pieces of property in downtown OKC, and while this project has some nice urban principles and has a chance to be something enjoyable for OKC, it is closer to the "total failure" end of the spectrum than it is to the "world class" end. To be sure it's well between those two, but if Rainey Williams and OKC think this fits any rational definition of world-class (his words), then we are so much further behind than I ever imagined.

Completely agree. To me, this is shaping up to be another development fail in a long string of them in this city that includes Lower Bricktown, Belle Isle, Classen Curve, Tuscana, etc, etc, etc. I do not trust that the final product will even be anything close to the rendering we have today. These things are always SCALED DOWN. It's time for OKC to stop accepting the bare minimum. You may say this project, as shown in the rendering is already above the bare minimum and is actually a quality product. That's when the location comes into play. This project would be amazing in the extremely dilapidated south Midtown area or at 4th and Hudson. Not at the Stage Center site which should be reserved for something iconic. Again, I do not trust that the rendering is what we will actually end up with, so we may be destroying the Stage Center for something that makes the current rendering look attractive. It's time for OKC to move beyond "anything better than crappy makes us happy."

Completely agree. To me, this is shaping up to be another development fail in a long string of them in this city that includes Lower Bricktown, Belle Isle, Classen Curve, Tuscana, etc, etc, etc. I do not trust that the final product will even be anything close to the rendering we have today. These things are always SCALED DOWN. It's time for OKC to stop accepting the bare minimum. You may say this project, as shown in the rendering is already above the bare minimum and is actually a quality product. That's when the location comes into play. This project would be amazing in the extremely dilapidated south Midtown area or at 4th and Hudson. Not at the Stage Center site which should be reserved for something iconic. Again, I do not trust that the rendering is what we will actually end up with, so we may be destroying the Stage Center for something that makes the current rendering look attractive. It's time for OKC to move beyond "anything better than crappy makes us happy."

Will you ever be satisfied then?

What if someone proposed a 60 floor building, would you support the project? You probably wouldn't because you would be afraid financing would fall through after the Stage Center was demo'd.

People need to remove their emotions from this. This thread has gotten ridiculous. Also proves a point that this forum largely has a one track mind, if there appears to be a motion to go a different direction, everyone will suddenly change their minds and go that way, whatever that direction is.