View Full Version : OG&E Tower




BDP
08-12-2013, 03:06 PM
The problem is that Stage Center with its large setbacks and lack of any economic activity hinders walkability.

Not as much as the lots with nothing on it.

Just the facts
08-12-2013, 03:11 PM
Not as much as the lots with nothing on it.

You can't leap-frog walkability. Make a gap in the urban fabric and pedestrians stop walking. That is why shopping malls put up displays, advertisements, and false walls in vacancy stores instead of just leaving it as is. They know people will stop walking and turn around at the first sign of a vacant store.

BDP
08-12-2013, 04:07 PM
Make a gap in the urban fabric and pedestrians stop walking.

Precisely. And an empty lot or surface parking lot creates a much bigger gap than Stage Center. From a walk-ability standpoint, it's completely inefficient for anyone to be getting out their pick axes when you can impact downtown's walk-ability to a much greater degree in several other spots and skip the whole demo step completely, be open for business sooner, and completely avoid controversy altogether.

Rover
08-12-2013, 05:11 PM
They know people will stop walking and turn around at the first sign of a vacant store.

Yes, even though they really wanted to go to Macy's, they can't bear to walk past that empty spot so they just turn around and leave. They will come back later when that gap is filled. It is an amazing phenomena which can kill a whole wing of a mall. LOL.

Rover
08-12-2013, 06:28 PM
We don't yet know if the new tower base is close to the street and designed properly for pedestrian interaction and interest. It is too early to claim it a failure. What we know is that what is there creates no pedestrian interaction now. Can't be worse.

OKCisOK4me
08-12-2013, 07:12 PM
Maybe Pete or mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm can change the name of this thread to 'Stage Center Tower (Hypothetical)' until renderings are actually released because this thread is as bad as the mystery tower thread with no concrete information.

zookeeper
08-12-2013, 07:48 PM
I just returned from 9 days in Philly. I would presonally pickaxe Stage Center to the ground just to get a block of their 3 to 5 story buildings.

You can't really compare Philadelphia (founded in 1682) with Oklahoma City (founded 207 years later). Of course those buildings are wonderful and we'd have a ton of them if we were 200+ years older too.

As much as I love Philly, for historical reasons as much as any, I wouldn't live there over OKC. No way. They have so many problems that make us look like paradise.

SoonerBoy18
08-12-2013, 09:42 PM
How big would this tower be compared to the Chase tower? I really dont know what 400 ft tower looks like

KayneMo
08-12-2013, 10:00 PM
400 feet is just slightly taller than SandRidge Center, which is 393 feet tall. I would love if the design of this tower was something like neo-Gothic or Art Deco. A favorite of mine is the Wells Fargo Center in Minneapolis, designed by Cesar Pelli as "modern Art Deco."

Just the facts
08-12-2013, 10:27 PM
You can't really compare Philadelphia (founded in 1682) with Oklahoma City (founded 207 years later). Of course those buildings are wonderful and we'd have a ton of them if we were 200+ years older too.

As much as I love Philly, for historical reasons as much as any, I wouldn't live there over OKC. No way. They have so many problems that make us look like paradise.

Most of what people would consider 'cool Philadelphia buildings' were built as part of the City Beautiful movement that started in the 1920's - 30 years after OKC was founded. Just saying.

zookeeper
08-12-2013, 10:45 PM
Most of what people would consider 'cool Philadelphia buildings' were built as part of the City Beautiful movement that started in the 1920's - 30 years after OKC was founded. Just saying.

But JTF, my point is still valid, those buildings probably wouldn't have been built in the '20s if the city didn't have 100 years of momentum behind them.

Just the facts
08-12-2013, 10:52 PM
But JTF, my point is still valid, those buildings probably wouldn't have been built in the '20s if the city didn't have 100 years of momentum behind them.

Well, I'll give you that. The City Beautiful movement was an early response to the dirty industrial city and Philly was certainly a dirty industrial city by 1920. However, OKC had many neo-classical and renaissance inspired building as well by 1930, but we tore many of them down.

If the Stage Center Tower was only 3 stories with good sidewalk interaction and built on the principles of good urbanism I would be more than happy.

Midtowner
08-13-2013, 07:07 AM
Wow, lots of strong opinions on how high this tower 'has to' be. I'm just hoping for something which contributes to the local economy and urban core... and that's pretty much anything compared to a non-functional, way-too-small theater.

catch22
08-13-2013, 07:48 AM
Wow, lots of strong opinions on how high this tower 'has to' be. I'm just hoping for something which contributes to the local economy and urban core... and that's pretty much anything compared to a non-functional, way-too-small theater.

I agree. Lots of childish posts...

Maybe people are forgetting that we are at least getting a new 20 story building downtown.

CuatrodeMayo
08-13-2013, 08:24 AM
Wow, lots of strong opinions on how high this tower 'has to' be. I'm just hoping for something which contributes to the local economy and urban core... and that's pretty much anything compared to a non-functional, way-too-small theater.
I agree. Not to sound too much like Kerry, but the relative "goodness" or "badness" of this project will be how the 1st couple of floors relate to their surrounding urban context and how the inevitable parking structure is handled. I think the overall height relative to the other tall buildings is immaterial.

Pete
08-13-2013, 08:42 AM
Hope to find out more details now that I'm in town and out pressing the flesh. :)

Things seem to be solidifying and we are already a couple of weeks into the 90-day waiting period.

Praedura
08-13-2013, 11:14 AM
Hope to find out more details now that I'm in town and out pressing the flesh. :)

Things seem to be solidifying and we are already a couple of weeks into the 90-day waiting period.

By all means, "press" away. And keep those ears flapping. :)

s.hoff
08-13-2013, 12:06 PM
Is it possible to have the parking garage inside the building? Not that the bottom floors would be a garage, but more like if it was the "core" of the first five floors or so. This would keep it hidden and would require the building to be taller to accommodate the space it is taking up. I just didn't know if there was precedent for this or if it is even a good idea. Would it be too noisy for the offices and stores (or whatever) that are surrounding the garage, or do garages have to be more exposed to the outdoors for ventilation?

Urbanized
08-13-2013, 12:08 PM
Yes, even though they really wanted to go to Macy's, they can't bear to walk past that empty spot so they just turn around and leave. They will come back later when that gap is filled. It is an amazing phenomena which can kill a whole wing of a mall. LOL.
Actually JTF is correct on this one. I know you are representing it as extreme - and using an extreme example to bolster your point - but there is science behind this. I recall in a Main Street or IDA training that I participated in that there is a pretty precise number of feet someone will walk past a gap in street frontage before becoming uncertain about safety or desirability of the area and seeking another route. I think it might have been as little as 200' (in an outdoor, urban area). To some extent, it supposedly has to do with our evolutionary (if you believe in that sort of thing) response to environment. That is, we instinctively feel less safe when exposed in the open in an unfamiliar environment, and we prefer "cover" provided by street wall, which reduces the directions from which danger can approach. This combines with stimuli provided by store windows, activity in them, other people walking, etc., to hold our interest and make us feel like there is something ahead that will reward us for the effort of walking there. Most of it is hugely related to the subconscious.

It is why walking 40-blocks in Midtown Manhattan feels like nothing, but 8-10 blocks in downtown OKC feel almost insurmountable to those not closely acquainted with the area.

I have racked my brain to remember those figures and find the source for them, because I found the whole subject pretty fascinating, but I haven't been able to find them since.

HOT ROD
08-13-2013, 12:29 PM
IIRC, the blocks in OKC are larger than those in Manhattan.

Just sayin.

Urbanized
08-13-2013, 12:38 PM
I'm sure that is possible. My point is, walk a mile there (or in Boston, or Chicago, or in downtown Portland, or a number of other places) and then a quarter mile here and see which is more enjoyable. It has little to do with distance.

Just the facts
08-13-2013, 12:45 PM
IIRC, the blocks in OKC are larger than those in Manhattan.

Just sayin.

Actually, you kind of made my point. It just 'feels' like the blocks in NYC are shorter because it has items of interest on them. In midtown Manhattan the blocks are about 225' X 820'. Downtown Manhattan they are around 300' X 400' - the same size as typical downtown OKC block (not counting the high concentration of super blocks in OKC).

Rover
08-13-2013, 02:59 PM
IIRC, the blocks in OKC are larger than those in Manhattan.

Just sayin.

Not necessarily. Between the numbered streets are much longer in NYC, depending on where you are.

Rover
08-13-2013, 03:03 PM
Actually JTF is correct on this one. I know you are representing it as extreme - and using an extreme example to bolster your point - but there is science behind this. I recall in a Main Street or IDA training that I participated in that there is a pretty precise number of feet someone will walk past a gap in street frontage before becoming uncertain about safety or desirability of the area and seeking another route. I think it might have been as little as 200' (in an outdoor, urban area). To some extent, it supposedly has to do with our evolutionary (if you believe in that sort of thing) response to environment. That is, we instinctively feel less safe when exposed in the open in an unfamiliar environment, and we prefer "cover" provided by street wall, which reduces the directions from which danger can approach. This combines with stimuli provided by store windows, activity in them, other people walking, etc., to hold our interest and make us feel like there is something ahead that will reward us for the effort of walking there. Most of it is hugely related to the subconscious.

It is why walking 40-blocks in Midtown Manhattan feels like nothing, but 8-10 blocks in downtown OKC feel almost insurmountable to those not closely acquainted with the area.

I have racked my brain to remember those figures and find the source for them, because I found the whole subject pretty fascinating, but I haven't been able to find them since.

The original statement, as you point out, is a gross oversimplification. Visual context is extremely important. I object to these absolute statements with no context. They are inane. It is like quoting averages. I grossly exaggerated to make a point. My point was silly, just as the original is silly. Neighborhoods, streets, etc. must be evaluated in context...even as to walkability and desirability. This micro-micro examination and using rigid dogmatic rules of thumb distorts reality and hurts the urbanists argument.

Urbanized
08-13-2013, 03:15 PM
I don't disagree with most of that. However, the fact remains that the desire to bring buildings to the street, minimize gap-tooth street front, and encourage active windows and mixed use come from somewhere. They aren't just feel-good arbitrary notions and dogma; they are based on studies of human behavior, and of existing development, some successful, some failed. For us to get the most bang for our buck when pursuing urban and inner-city development - utilizing significant public resources BTW - we have to be mindful of these truisms.

Bellaboo
08-13-2013, 03:18 PM
Is it possible to have the parking garage inside the building? Not that the bottom floors would be a garage, but more like if it was the "core" of the first five floors or so. This would keep it hidden and would require the building to be taller to accommodate the space it is taking up. I just didn't know if there was precedent for this or if it is even a good idea. Would it be too noisy for the offices and stores (or whatever) that are surrounding the garage, or do garages have to be more exposed to the outdoors for ventilation?

I've seen to buildings where the first 6 floors are parking. They'll have a street level lobby and then you just hit the elevators.

s.hoff
08-13-2013, 04:38 PM
I've seen to buildings where the first 6 floors are parking. They'll have a street level lobby and then you just hit the elevators.

Hmm. Sounds ugly. And if the first two floors are going to be retail, it probably wouldn't work.

CaptDave
08-13-2013, 05:03 PM
I've seen hotels contructed in that manner. It can work fairly well if designed properly.

Teo9969
08-13-2013, 05:50 PM
Stage Center, even in its current form, is not a gap in the urban fabric...it's just not. If anything, it's the SW corner of urban fabric.

Stage Center would be infinitely more interesting, even in its current form, if there were development on all 4 sides. It would garner more attention and provide an interesting juxtaposition to whatever was placed around it. The reason why nobody will walk by Stage Center is because...get this...there's nothing to walk to...

OKC is not fortunate to be a city that receives frequent visitations from around the world so we don't usually think in this mind-frame, but after traveling through Europe for the past month, having been so far to Wien, Salzburg, Praha, Krakow, Warszawa, and Berlin...Stage Center is the exact type of thing that would make me stop in my tracks and soak it in, as would the Crystal Bridge in MBG. I may even decide that I don't actually like the architecture, but it is nothing if not interesting, and that alone makes it a valuable piece to any urban fabric because it is a place maker (the real mistake is that it wasn't somehow tied into MBG along with the south side of the block)

Also: Dense mixed-use development is great and all...but it becomes trite very quickly when it is profuse. It has its advantages, but place-making does not tend to be one of those things. I would prefer it over what we currently have throughout much of downtown, yes, but it's only a part of the puzzle.

windowphobe
08-13-2013, 05:54 PM
In the Manhattan street grid, it's 20 blocks per mile (say, 53rd to 73rd up Second Avenue). However, the avenues aren't evenly spaced (610 to 920 feet apart).

CuatrodeMayo
08-13-2013, 07:34 PM
Stage Center, even in its current form, is not a gap in the urban fabric...it's just not. If anything, it's the SW corner of urban fabric.

Stage Center would be infinitely more interesting, even in its current form, if there were development on all 4 sides. It would garner more attention and provide an interesting juxtaposition to whatever was placed around it. The reason why nobody will walk by Stage Center is because...get this...there's nothing to walk to...

OKC is not fortunate to be a city that receives frequent visitations from around the world so we don't usually think in this mind-frame, but after traveling through Europe for the past month, having been so far to Wien, Salzburg, Praha, Krakow, Warszawa, and Berlin...Stage Center is the exact type of thing that would make me stop in my tracks and soak it in, as would the Crystal Bridge in MBG. I may even decide that I don't actually like the architecture, but it is nothing if not interesting, and that alone makes it a valuable piece to any urban fabric because it is a place maker (the real mistake is that it wasn't somehow tied into MBG along with the south side of the block)

Also: Dense mixed-use development is great and all...but it becomes trite very quickly when it is profuse. It has its advantages, but place-making does not tend to be one of those things. I would prefer it over what we currently have throughout much of downtown, yes, but it's only a part of the puzzle.

Exactly. Thanks for the post.

GaryOKC6
08-13-2013, 08:25 PM
Stage Center, even in its current form, is not a gap in the urban fabric...it's just not. If anything, it's the SW corner of urban fabric.

Stage Center would be infinitely more interesting, even in its current form, if there were development on all 4 sides. It would garner more attention and provide an interesting juxtaposition to whatever was placed around it. The reason why nobody will walk by Stage Center is because...get this...there's nothing to walk to...

OKC is not fortunate to be a city that receives frequent visitations from around the world so we don't usually think in this mind-frame, but after traveling through Europe for the past month, having been so far to Wien, Salzburg, Praha, Krakow, Warszawa, and Berlin...Stage Center is the exact type of thing that would make me stop in my tracks and soak it in, as would the Crystal Bridge in MBG. I may even decide that I don't actually like the architecture, but it is nothing if not interesting, and that alone makes it a valuable piece to any urban fabric because it is a place maker (the real mistake is that it wasn't somehow tied into MBG along with the south side of the block)

Also: Dense mixed-use development is great and all...but it becomes trite very quickly when it is profuse. It has its advantages, but place-making does not tend to be one of those things. I would prefer it over what we currently have throughout much of downtown, yes, but it's only a part of the puzzle.

All I can say about the SC is that it IS interesting but then again we all make mistakes. It was a terrible design from the beginning as far as being functional. Despite all the efforts to repurpose it there is no way to make it happen.

Pete
08-13-2013, 08:43 PM
Heard a rumor today this building will be at least 35 floors.

It's going up!! :)

Not super solid on this info but will certainly have more to share within a week.

Dustin
08-13-2013, 08:45 PM
Oh LAWD... I can't take the emotions...

dmoor82
08-13-2013, 08:52 PM
Heard a rumor today this building will be at least 35 floors.

It's going up!! :)

Not super solid on this info but will certainly have more to share within a week.

The Chase Tower is 36/500ft, so with modern floorplates 35 floors might be between 625- 700' ft????

dmoor82
08-13-2013, 08:53 PM
Btw Pete, what happened to the like button?

Dustin
08-13-2013, 09:03 PM
Btw Pete, what happened to the like button?

like

dmoor82
08-13-2013, 09:12 PM
At least 35 floors, Which means it could be more than that! I hope Pete's info is right, because we still might get that 700'ft tower.

Thundercitizen
08-13-2013, 09:14 PM
"Heard a rumor today this building will be at least 35 floors.

It's going up!! :)

Not super solid on this info but will certainly have more to share within a week."




Thundercitizen likes this post.

hoya
08-13-2013, 10:00 PM
Now that is more like it! And the taller it is, the stronger that indicates our getting the MLP HQ as well.

Reno and Walker
08-13-2013, 10:12 PM
No one has ever contacted me about a GARAGE GOING IN HERE AT RENO AND WALKER..

dmoor82
08-13-2013, 10:16 PM
No one has ever contacted me about a GARAGE GOING IN HERE AT RENO AND WALKER..

Lol, gotcha! Wink,wink

BrettM2
08-13-2013, 10:17 PM
No one has ever contacted me about a GARAGE GOING IN HERE AT RENO AND WALKER..

Hey... Is there a garage going in at Reno and Walker?

Reno and Walker
08-13-2013, 10:18 PM
hey... Is there a garage going in at reno and walker?

no one has ever contacted me about a garage gojng in here..

Reno and Walker
08-13-2013, 10:20 PM
Lol, gotcha! Wink,wink

Had an oil company out of HOUSTON Inquire about the block, but the city or private investor has never contacted me..

Reno and Walker
08-13-2013, 10:24 PM
Had an oil company out of HOUSTON Inquire about the block, but the city or private investor has never contacted me..

I think you guys not need worry about Reno and Walker you need to be concerned about Nick P and his block..I think you are looking in the wrong direction..lol..

I will let you all know once i hear something..

dmoor82
08-13-2013, 10:25 PM
Had an oil company out of HOUSTON Inquire about the block, but the city or private investor has never contacted me..

Ohh HOUSTON you say, any more NOT HINTS you can give us?

Reno and Walker
08-13-2013, 10:29 PM
Ohh HOUSTON you say, any more NOT HINTS you can give us?


lol, see you in the funny papers dmoor.. g'nite

Teo9969
08-14-2013, 04:24 AM
Btw Pete, what happened to the like button?

The like button has never existed in the "Urban Development & Buildings Forum" The old Mystery Tower thread is located in the "Other Urban Development Forum"

Snowman
08-14-2013, 04:46 AM
The like button has never existed in the "Urban Development & Buildings Forum" The old Mystery Tower thread is located in the "Other Urban Development Forum"

I thought it was if the page has a wiki article, then it will not have the like button

Teo9969
08-14-2013, 04:57 AM
I thought it was if the page has a wiki article, then it will not have the like button

Maybe that's it...but all the threads in the UD&B forum have wiki articles and I guess the summary and reference forum as well.

Pete
08-14-2013, 07:22 AM
I thought it was if the page has a wiki article, then it will not have the like button

Correct

OKCisOK4me
08-14-2013, 01:55 PM
The Chase Tower is 36/500ft, so with modern floorplates 35 floors might be between 625- 700' ft????

Assuming the first two floors retail have a minimum 12' clearance and the rest of the floors are 17', you're looking at minimum 585'. I would assume those 35 floors don't include maintenance or a top off of the tower if its not a flat roof so probably over 600 feet.

ourulz2000
08-14-2013, 03:33 PM
Assuming the first two floors retail have a minimum 12' clearance and the rest of the floors are 17', you're looking at minimum 585'. I would assume those 35 floors don't include maintenance or a top off of the tower if its not a flat roof so probably over 600 feet.

Probably a little optimistic, but we can dream.

Pete
08-14-2013, 04:05 PM
The tower height is like the stock market... Rising and falling every day.

Today I heard the number is 33 -- but that's certainly not final.

OKCisOK4me
08-14-2013, 04:24 PM
Probably a little optimistic, but we can dream.

Hey...lol....I'm just helpin the dreamers. :Smiley199

Teo9969
08-14-2013, 04:33 PM
The tower height is like the stock market... Rising and falling every day.

Today I heard the number is 33 -- but that's certainly not final.

Everything regarding the Mystery Tower(s) is like the stock market. OKCTalk emotions are like the stock market on crack.

Urbanized
08-14-2013, 04:44 PM
Stage Center, even in its current form, is not a gap in the urban fabric...it's just not. If anything, it's the SW corner of urban fabric.

Stage Center would be infinitely more interesting, even in its current form, if there were development on all 4 sides. It would garner more attention and provide an interesting juxtaposition to whatever was placed around it. The reason why nobody will walk by Stage Center is because...get this...there's nothing to walk to...
...

Also: Dense mixed-use development is great and all...but it becomes trite very quickly when it is profuse. It has its advantages, but place-making does not tend to be one of those things. I would prefer it over what we currently have throughout much of downtown, yes, but it's only a part of the puzzle.
I don't disagree with any of this - and in fact I'm one of the few fans of Stage Center left apparently - but separately only want to point out that vista terminations, plazas or other elements that provide interesting relief from monotonous repeating street wall are only necessary when, well, when there is existing monotonous street wall. We are so far from having that problem that it is funny to even think about. We need about a generation's-worth of focus on rebuilding the urban fabric using tried-and-true urban design principles before we worry TOO much about getting fancy with the street wall.

Thundercitizen
08-14-2013, 05:38 PM
The tower height is like the stock market... Rising and falling every day.

Today I heard the number is 33 -- but that's certainly not final.Perhaps population/volume is dynamic between this tower and MT2 and/or MT3 (Mystery Tower II/III).


-signed-
Daydreamer

G.Walker
08-14-2013, 06:31 PM
I know , why don't we just take the average of what we heard so far form reliable sources, 20, 28, 33, and 35. That would make it 29 stories, lol....