Have to do park and ride for the time being. Build an urban parking garage with street front retail at the park and ride lots. Allow urban development to form around the train and the park and ride garage. It will take a long time to get the trains to be self sustaining on non-park-and-riders if you have the stop open into a prarie.

I am glad you brought that up because there is a difference between a park and ride lot and a TOD train station. It goes back to the whole point that what is good for cars is not good for pedestrians, and vise-versa. If you make people park away from the train station they will just choose to drive all the way to work. Like-wise, if you give the cars parking priority people won't walk there.

Maybe this guy can explain it better

[http://seattletransitblog.com/2013/06/25/we-shouldnt-build-more-park-and-rides/


Today, they’re looking at other station access options, but it’s still taken as a given by many transit supporters that park and rides are good. I used to be one of these, but now I’m not, and I want to explain why.

Have to do park and ride for the time being. Build an urban parking garage with street front retail at the park and ride lots. Allow urban development to form around the train and the park and ride garage. It will take a long time to get the trains to be self sustaining on non-park-and-riders if you have the stop open into a prarie.

I agree. Just because its a park & ride NOW doesn't mean it needs to be one forever.

The transit oriented developments around the DART stations have been wildly successful. The Shops at Park Lane was built on one of the DART Park Lane P&R lots.

http://shopsatparklane.com/

if you made a park & ride lot something like that and less like huge parking lots with some awnings to stand over while you wait for the bus (or a slug) those are fantastic, and become communal places for your "evil" sprawlers

No shock there since most cities have only been truly livable for the past 5-10 years.

My apologies for derailing this thread. Back to your traffic chat.

You must be very young, have never traveled or know little urban history. There have been many livable cities in the US for many years.

No.

Maybe on discussion is based on undefined terms.

Park and Ride station: You park and then you ride

http://streetsblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/3801329165_ba3c5f701e_z.jpg

Mixed-use train station: You can go here and maybe not even ride the train

http://bettercities.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/full-content-width/delmar5.jpg

Neither one of these option reduces congestion on the freeway, so why not pick the one that offers more than just a parking space?

That latter option is awesome. If I lived in Edmond or Norman, which I don't, what a great option that is. You sit on a bus/train for a little bit, get to the station, and why not just grab dinner there before you hop in your car, or, and not to promote drinking and driving, why not have a little happy hour once you get off the train?

You don't even need a car for that last station unless you want one. You can live on-site, across the street, a 1/4 mile away, a 1/2 mile away, or 10 miles away. Heck, if this was in Norman and you lived Edmond, this place might have your favorite restaurant and you can take the train to dinner (especially if you lived in Norman at one time and you still had a circle of friends there).

No one is living within walking distance of the park and ride lot (at least not in any significant number) and no one is ever going to dine or shop there. It will just be infrastructure that gets used a few hours a day by 500 commuters.

Chicago has park & ride lots for the trains that go into the city, and they work well.


Texas has the great "Don't Slow Texas Down" signs on highways encouraging slower traffic to keep right. Not sure how effective they are, but I like them.I love those

Kerry I would say option two is obviously the one to strive for to avoid the acres of black top replacing green space. So if we go by what previous posters have said for the planned "intermodal" facility at OU, we are looking at the parking lot on Brooks St in Norman by the power substation. If we could get an OU sponsor development like that above in the the Brandt Park area just east of the Duck Pond (along the tracks), that could do pretty well for that area. Though part of me also wonders what kind of impact it would have on Campus Corner.

If we wanted to do a more urban design like that, the Boyd Street crossing area would be better located but there is just too many structures that would need to be bought out for it. Lindsey St is probably the best solution for that as there is room to develop and its almost dead center of the main Norman Urban core. Another option would be to have a development similar to that, but in Downtown Norman that could also incorporate a lot of the existing structures there. The problem there is you lose a lot of foot traffic from OU, but you can access to more viable structures downtown.

Depending on how many stations would be added - we need to remember more stops, the longer it will take to get along the rail line and less likely it is for people to use it - we could look at similar developments in these locations...

Moore - S 4th Crossing would help with rebuilding that area. Alternative is just north of S 19th to be close to existing retail, however you move away from the population density being there.

S OKC - Crossroads is the obvious choice. Plenty of parking and heavens knows that mall could use some help.

Downtown - Santa Fe station of course.

N OKC - NW 63rd crossing area near Chesapeake.

Edmond - Probably 2nd street where it crosses.

That is a big gap between 63rd and the Edmond stop, but can't really think of anywhere to stop in between that is near density of any kind.

I think those locations though could support a train station development like that. They are also close enough to some bigger draws that could impact traffic some. However, one line isn't going to do it. It is going to have to be a network to make it worthwhile for anyone.

My big tip for people who commute into the city from Edmond and viceversa - Take Eastern (Blvd).

There is a fact that was lost on the residents of Edmond in 1999. Eastern was widened and repaved in preparation for the Broadway extension project. It was to be an alternate route to lighten extension traffic, but it never really caught on. It's still very lightly traveled at all times of the day, and if you don't mind a few stops, it's a relatively quick trip right into the heart of Edmond.

I still use Broadway Extension when it's not busy, but if you're traveling in rushhour, give Eastern a try.

EDIT: Apologies if this has already been posted, I didn't read through this thread.

I followed the N/S track (on Google Maps) all the way from Norman up to Guthrie. I have to say some areas just scream for commuter rail. A station on Boyd Street in Norman would provide access to Campus Corner just a few blocks away. There are some small crappy apartments there that you could replace for your rail station and parking structure. Crossroads Mall gives you a huge amount of available parking and could draw more shoppers to that area. It would also be the only shopping mall in the city with rail access, which is nice for Christmas shopping. Go all the way up to Guthrie and their historic train depot is only a few blocks from their wonderful downtown.

What we really need is one great location (like JTF's second photo) to show developers and communities how it is done. Because left to their own devices, a lot of areas are just going to put a big parking lot there.

I agree. Just because its a park & ride NOW doesn't mean it needs to be one forever.

The transit oriented developments around the DART stations have been wildly successful. The Shops at Park Lane was built on one of the DART Park Lane P&R lots.

The Shops at Park Lane | (http://shopsatparklane.com/)
That was the plan for many of the stops on the Denver light rail lines, the recession and credit crunch killed some of the projects that were just getting ready to start. RTD built garages and in some areas there was TOD slated around them, the station that I stop at closest to my house (the end of the line right now but it is being extended up I-225 to the Medical Campus) has an old strip center across the street with big redevelopment plans that were put on old and now the various owners can't agree on what to do.


No one is living within walking distance of the park and ride lot (at least not in any significant number) and no one is ever going to dine or shop there. It will just be infrastructure that gets used a few hours a day by 500 commuters.
At least on the H-Line (the one by me) there are many older apartment/condo complexes and neighborhoods adjacent to those park-and-rides, I see many people walking to the Nine Mile Station in the morning and that is in an older area (70's) of Aurora. Almost every train that I have been on in the morning leaving the Nine Mile Station is packed and the garage isn't all that big and fills up by 7:15, in the evening I see many walking away from the station across Parker Rd. If they are done right, they can serve areas where ther eis already some density, that is the case all along the H-Line.

I think that is the issue we are discussing bluedogok. If stations are built where there is an existing density then you can get better ridership than building a remote station with nothing around it but a parking lot and open space. TOD stations have parking garages if someone wants to drive to it. Venture79 had some good ideas on where to location stations in Norman that can either take advantage of existing density or be located in a place where development is desirable (OU Duck Pond area). But building a park and ride station at Rock Creek Road isn't it going to do anything but make sprawl more convenient and increase traffic in the area.

Because the follow up question is, is the traffic a problem in isolation or is it a symptom of a larger problem? I think it is a symptom of a larger problem because no matter how much you fight the symptom, it keeps coming back when the medicine (more lanes of traffic) wears off. So we can either spend money, time, and effort fighting the symptom forever, or we can fight the root problem.

Now if someone doesn't think OKC has a traffic problem this thread might not be for them :).

But we don't. This thread is horse sh/t.

I'm going to put you down in the No column Spartan.:)

OKC doesn't have a traffic problem yet.

Our symptoms are the result of poor interchanges and bad drivers.

Bad drivers do not use the road efficiently...waiting until the last second to accelerate to get onto the highway, merging at incredibly slow speeds causing others behind to slow down and compact, slowing down for turns on interstates, coming to near complete stops when turning from a street to a driveway, blocking intersections, blocking the 'fast' lanes at 5mph under the speed limit, etc.

If we had better interchanges and more efficient use of our roadways by having better drivers we would be a lot better.

I think that is the issue we are discussing bluedogok. If stations are built where there is an existing density then you can get better ridership than building a remote station with nothing around it but a parking lot and open space. TOD stations have parking garages if someone wants to drive to it. Venture79 had some good ideas on where to location stations in Norman that can either take advantage of existing density or be located in a place where development is desirable (OU Duck Pond area). But building a park and ride station at Rock Creek Road isn't it going to do anything but make sprawl more convenient and increase traffic in the area.
I know some of the ones on the one line in Austin are that way but most were slated to have TOD development and some did have developers signed up and the August 2008 happened. We had a few projects terminated that were TOD related in Austin because of the credit crisis. Most of those still haven't started back up because the land has been tied up in bankruptcies. For the most part Austin's system is run on former freight track so it wasn't exactly as well directed as the Denver system which was more carved out of highway right of way than existing rail lines. I do agree that if it is located near existing density it makes it a better solution for everyone.

Maybe on discussion is based on undefined terms.

Park and Ride station: You park and then you ride

http://streetsblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/3801329165_ba3c5f701e_z.jpg

Mixed-use train station: You can go here and maybe not even ride the train

http://bettercities.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/full-content-width/delmar5.jpg

Neither one of these option reduces congestion on the freeway, so why not pick the one that offers more than just a parking space?So you just hate cars???? lol ;)

Why can't it be mixed with a good bus system???? Have a few park and rides and then have a few stops in urban areas like DD.

I'm with Plutonic, you really have to have both and all. You can't only put in density related stations because then you're forcing the outliers to drive to get to density to then get on the train. You really need to have all options available, from the most dense station downtown (or wherever you chose to have the lines cross the most) to a remote station with the large lot.

D.C. is a great example of how a system can work in a diverse environment....and across state/district lines, which requires a LOT of cooperation. You've got the large lot stations in places like Bathesda, MD where the "locals" drive and park and then ride into the core. Then you've also got the stations with zero parking like on the Mall. The same system is also above and below ground depending on where you are in the system. It's fast, reliable, CLEAN, and safe.

I'm with Plutonic, you really have to have both and all. You can't only put in density related stations because then you're forcing the outliers to drive to get to density to then get on the train. You really need to have all options available, from the most dense station downtown (or wherever you chose to have the lines cross the most) to a remote station with the large lot.


That doesn't make sense. Outliers are going to have to drive to get on the train no matter what. Dense developments can still have parking, but they shouldn't be just parking.

So you just hate cars???? lol ;)

It isn't that I hate cars but I believe they are an enabler of things that have had a bad impact on our country, society, and environment over the last 60 years. We have simply become so dependent on them that everyone has to own one to participate in life. Kids can't walk to school or walk to a corner market, teenagers struggle to get to work, the poor have to resort to spending hours on buses, the elderly get abandoned and survive on "meals on wheels" programs, parents spend hours commuting, road rage, aggressive driving, and drunk driving kill 10,000+ people a year (not to mention all the people who are injured and don't die), people spend almost as much on transportation as the do on housing (and in some cases more), we have to maintain a global military to keep the oil flowing at affordable prices, sprawl has divided us by race and income at levels of precision previously unthinkable, many of our cities have air quality so poor that people can't go outside for days at a time, we build entire disposable neighborhoods, etc... etc... etc...

You know, maybe I do hate cars :). Al Gore called them the most destructive force on the planet and being a good right-winger I dismissed that as crazy talk from a loon, but I think now he was right about that.

Anyhow, let's not try to get to far off the topic at hand (a lot of that is going around lately).

Maybe this is a stupid question but what time does the Sooner Express arrive/depart the Sooner Express Parking lot?

Missed this the other day. Sooner Express runs from Campus through Norman and then runs as an express to DT OKC. It has stops inside OKC from DT into HSC and on to State capitol area before returning into DT and over to the transit Center. It then is express back to Norman and on to Campus. While inside either community, a tug on the rope signals driver you want off at next stop. That may be a marked stop or it may be just past an upcoming intersection.

Departing Norman, I only board at the Homeland off NW24 / W Robinson. Most times I step off at the first DT OKC stop and stroll to where I am going. On return trips, I pick it up at the Transit Center and either pop off at the Homeland, or if I did not have my car awaiting, I'll pop off in DT Norman, say W Main / Webster and stroll to somewhere nearby to eat, the Library, Post Office or pop in on a friend who offices near the P.O.

Using the Homeland Stop as the focal point:
Norman to OKC buses depart at 6:35, 7:00 and 8:30 a.m. with afternoon runs at 2:05 and 4:35.
OKC to Norman buses depart transit center at 9;25 a.m. and afternoon runs at 2:55, 4:55 and 5:30

If there was a noonish bus and later eve service or weekend service, I'd gladly make use of it. There are times I drive to the city because it is unlikely I'll be done in time for the 9:25 return bus but I know I'll be done long, long before the 2:55 bus. Wrapping up at 10-11, and having 3-5 hours to kill or find a spot to work out of isn't often practical.

However, I admit some days it does make for a leisurely visit to the library, a nice stroll and ample time to enjoy lunch, DT or otherwise if on/near a bus route. Fortunately, a decent amount of what I do involves a laptop or a cell phone. So as long as I can find a quiet private location and have battery power, work can proceed.


Main route - major points (but note: South Oval is presently closed and buses in Norman terminate at a Brooks Street transfer point not shown on the map, but adjacent to south oval on the east side at the ROTC/Armory building if I recall correctly.)
http://gometro.publishpath.com/Websites/gometro/Images/Route%20Schedules/Route%2024_web.pdf

Thanks Kevin - I was trying to line up the stops on the route guide with the timetable but I couldn't find an entry for Sooner Express Parking lot which on the map looks to be at the corner of Robinson and 24th.

Thanks Kevin - I was trying to line up the stops on the route guide with the timetable but I couldn't find an entry for Sooner Express Parking lot which on the map looks to be at the corner of Robinson and 24th.

Along the south side of the Homeland lot is where folks park and the bus stops. It pulls off 24th onto Westport Drive then does a short loop around to the south to go back on 24th to Robinson to the Interstate.

That doesn't make sense. Outliers are going to have to drive to get on the train no matter what. Dense developments can still have parking, but they shouldn't be just parking.


I think you missed the exaplanation. The "large lot" stations are the suburb stations where you drive there to hop on the train for the rest of the ride. The whole point of what i said was, you have to have ALL options in a successful system.

I think you missed the exaplanation. The "large lot" stations are the suburb stations where you drive there to hop on the train for the rest of the ride. The whole point of what i said was, you have to have ALL options in a successful system.

I don't see why. What is the difference between a parking lot that holds 500 cars and a parking garage that holds 500 cars, and sits next to a walkable shopping area.

This story was on our local Jax news a few nights ago. I am at a loss for words to explain it. Why can people not see the obvious cause and effect right in front of them?

Local|Action News - Jacksonville News, Weather & Sports - ActionNewsJax.com (http://www.actionnewsjax.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=4160428)

^

Ha! Oh, the hyperbole of local news stations: MAJOR! problem; TRAFFIC NIGHTMARE TO GET WORSE!

And always interviewing one random person on the street like that is in any way remotely relevant.


How long after widening that road (looks a lot like NW Expressway) before traffic clogs it again?

I can tell you from first hand experince the traffic in that portion of Orange Park is some of worst localized traffic I have ever seen. The off-ramp backs up 5 miles across the St Johns River everyday between 3PM and 7PM (that is not a joke - the off-ramp lanes start just after you get on the Buckman Bridge and the bridge itself is just over 3 miles long). Once you are on Blanding forget it - it goes nowhere.

We have lived in Jax for 11 years - that area has always been under construction. As soon as they get done they have to start again. When we first started looking to move here we found lots of homes in that area the were very affordable and big. We drove over on a Saturday and traffic was mind blowing. We didn't even make it to the model home in the subdivision. I just turned the car around and we looked in a different part of town.

The sad part is there is an exsiting railroad right-of-way that travels through the area, passes the largest employer in Jacksonville (NAS JAX) and goes right downtown while passing close to several historic high density neighborhood. It would be perfect for commuter rail. Sadly, we were told last night that The Better Jacksonville Plan which was supposed to pay for that kind of stuff was broke. We have 9 years left on the temporary tax and the money has all been spent.

I timed it today leaving work. It took me 6 minutes from when I got in my truck until I was on the interstate, almost to the second. That's not bad for "rush hour" traffic. From then on I was able to speed on the interstate.

I timed it today leaving work. It took me 6 minutes from when I got in my truck until I was on the interstate, almost to the second. That's not bad for "rush hour" traffic. From then on I was able to speed on the interstate.

I live 7 miles from work. At 4am it takes 11 minutes, at 1230pm it takes 17 minutes going back. Not bad at all for a city of our size.

I travel I-35 northbound between Norman and South OKC each morning around 6:30-7. From 19th steet in Moore to i-240 it's pretty much constant stop and go during this time frame. A couple of years ago I could travel this and not run into any stops. Now it's pretty much an everyday occurence and I've had to adjust when I leave my house to get to work. I know OKC don't really have "bad" traffic problems compared to other cities but has anyone else noticed the volume of traffic has increased greatly in this corridor in the last year or so?

This thread has more traffic than okc...pft...

No traffic to speak of in OKC. I just got back from Paris, they have 18 different rail lines (subway and above) and still have a traffic problem. It took almost an hour to get to the airport from the Arch of Triumph during NON rush hour this past Monday. They have a traffic problem, we don't. They also have an estimated 10 million people.

That is proof again the rail doesn't solve traffic congestion - for those that choose to sit in traffic.

We would have taken the train to the airport, but were told that it takes a couple of hours because of all the stops. It would have been much cheaper though, we paid 80 bucks for the taxi. Ouch

We did take the Blue Line in the Tube from Heathrow in London, that wasn't bad at all, and much less than a cab. But I hate dragging bags up and down stairs in the connections.