LifeChurch is just a big business busy opening branches all over the country. The CEO...I mean pastor...even has a Marketing degree from OCU. Whatever floats your boat.

LifeChurch is just a big business busy opening branches all over the country. The CEO...I mean pastor...even has a Marketing degree from OCU.

My pastor growing up had an engineering degree, so?

Yeah i dont think the degree has anything to do with it.

And hey all you critics of LF (since apparently it's "cool" to hate them here), have you ever been to a service there? Before you tear the place down, perhaps you should at least attend there once to see what it's like. I may not agree with them, but at least i can say i've been there before. I think you'll find yourself viewing the place very differently after you attend a service there.

It's interesting that peple single LF out too. Ever hear of Crossing Community Church? Check out the degrees the pastors there have....they aren't all theology degrees, but we don't tear them down. It's a mega church, but we don't criticize every aspect of their world. They're a single example among many, but the point still stands. Just because people flock to a particular church, doesn't make it the devil or some mega money empire. If you put the same effort into encouraging the business world to act responsibly, maybe we'd have a better world.

I think you're stretching my statement too far here. The Methodist church would agree with you, that the pastor should only be a messenger and your faith should not rely on that person. HOWEVER, for me, the pastor is as much about the church as the congregation. The pastor decides what director the sermons (and the church) take. The pastor is the flock leader. They are human and make bad choices as well, so no i'm not going to follow a pastor blindly over a cliff. One of the main points my pastor (and is true to the nature of Disciples of Christ) is to question and educate yourself. That being said, if the pastor comes into a church and that pastor sucks...that chuch is either going to fall or fire the pastor. So yes, i do feel like the pastor is linked to the success of the church.

It's not really the pastor though, is it? Nowadays, I'm sure those decisions are made by committees or even assistant pastors. At this point, I doubt Groeschel does much more than read a teleprompter. But even if he does have a hand in the message, if it's not a cult of personality, why not do as many churches do and direct your pastors to deliver a sermon on a certain topic? Why the video linkup? LC is a brand that is too dependent on its CEO. If he goes, the whole thing falls apart. Hence it's a cult of personality.


If you knew me at all, calling me "a cult personality" would be laughable. I'm a moderate in basically all aspects of my life, but following blindly has never been something that's part of me....lol.

Maybe I did a bad job communicating that. I didn't call you a cult of personality. I said you have one over at LC. I presume you go there.


The same is true of any movement you know. How the message is presented is as important as what the message is. Politics is a good example. Those with the good ideas are often behind the scenes while the more (at least theoretically) eloquent folks present it. We all experience this. If you see two people standing on the side of the road holding a "hungry" sign, one dressed in a suit and the other dressed in rags, which are you more likely to believe honestly needs the help? 5 minutes earlier, someone might have given the one man a suit while the other might be ripping people off as he climbs into his BMW.

Politics is a better example than you think. LC, from the marketing materials I've seen is a lot like politics in that it tries to tell the most people it can exactly what they want to hear (rather than what they need to know). I think the last thing Christ would have had in mind is people becoming extremely wealthy sharing Christ's message of love, rejection of material wealth, etc. When you look at what Christianity aspires to be and what sort of kid tested/mother approved message LC (or lack thereof) tends to share, the two don't jive at all.

It's interesting how many people seem to rail against the many aspects of religion and are certain they know what Christ would think or do.

Catholic priests make roughly 25-30k a year...which I have no problem with. Then you get into people like...

Ken Copeland - private jet and airstrip, $6 million lakefront mansion. Combined salary with wife is around $700k a year from the "church."
John Hagee - Cornerstone in San Antonio makes around $1 million a year in salary.
Charles Blake - $900k salary and 10,000 sq mansion in Beverly Hills.
Benny Hinn - around $1m a year salary.
Joel Osteen - did make $200k from the "church" but was called out and stops pulling a salary, living off book revenue now in his 17,000 sq ft mansion.
Ed Young - Fellowship in Dallas earns $1 million a year in salary from the "church" and has a 10,000 sq ft $1.5 million home.
Franklin Graham - Earn $1.2 million before saying he would donate more and took the salary disclosure private.

How exactly is this Christ-like?

I completely understand that I will not be able to agree with the views of everyone here, and that’s okay. I can read opposing posts and not be bothered. What I can’t is do is, read post that bash my faith, my church, and our pastor. Especially by those who have never attended a service. Let me start off by saying, I would personally like to invite you to visit any Life Church campus this Sunday. If it’s your first time and you want to sit with someone, please let me know and I will be happy to save a seat. I go to the Oklahoma City campus, it’s at NW 178th and Penn. Two services Saturday evening, four Sunday morning, and one Sunday evening. Pick one and I will be happy to meet you there! If you only come one time, that’s okay. I would prefer some visit our church, see what’s it’s really about, and them make a decision. Once you’ve attended and determine it’s not for you, then post as much as you want about our church.

If you attend the 10:00am Sunday service at the OKC location, you will see Craig “live and in person” which should alleviate the teleprompter notion.

I do not know how much Craig makes, and I don’t believe it’s my business to know that information. It seems that the mainstream non-church goers believe pastors should be destitute, and happy to accept any table scraps from the rest of us, and I don’t understand why that is. It’s unfortunate. I’m not for incredibly high salaries for pastors, but what amount is too much? How much comes from the church? What about their books? I heard Rick Warren tell the story about how he paid back all the salary he had received from his church after the success of his book, A Purpose Driven Life. So how much is too much for a pastor with 6 children.

Instead of talking about “marketing materials”, just come one time.

It seems that the mainstream non-church goers believe pastors should be destitute, and happy to accept any table scraps from the rest of us, and I don’t understand why that is.

I really wanted to stay out of this, and I'm out after this post, but the criticism of these pastors and their churches is not derogation of Christianity. The criticism is founded in the teachings of Jesus found in the gospels.


18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 18:18-25, King James Version

Luke 18:22 Cross References (14 Verses) (http://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-references/search?q=Luke+18%3A22)

and is the practice of criticism found in the teachings of Jesus found in the gospels?

Matthew 7:3 -- Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye but don't notice the log in your own eye?

4"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Matthew 7:4-5

My interpretation of that passage is that it is more an exhortation to address issues within yourself before critiquing others. I don't think the teaching forbids critical examination of others wholesale. That's my layman's interpretation, at least.

Some of the most judgmental people I know are selective about the scripture they quote and take it out of context, quoting it to hold a point in which they need to feel righteous and superior.

Remember, even the devil can quote scripture.

Some of the most judgmental people I know are selective about the scripture they quote and take it out of context, quoting it to hold a point in which they need to feel righteous and superior.

Remember, even the devil can quote scripture.

Well that explains a lot about religious figureheads who use it to attack minorities. Devil in shepherd's clothing leading the flock to slaughter so to say.

That's fantastic. This forum has even found a way to use citing religious texts as a way to criticize religion.

Well that explains a lot about religious figureheads who use it to attack minorities. Devil in shepherd's clothing leading the flock to slaughter so to say.

I am sure that lots of atheists like to find examples and exaggerate them so as to discredit people of faith. We can look for hypocrites in every walk of life and assume all human organizations are led by evil men. Ministers, priests, etc. are human and some are evil. But most serve God in the best way they know how.

Not sure who you are trying to point out as devils attacking minorities. Be more specific please.

I completely understand that I will not be able to agree with the views of everyone here, and that’s okay. I can read opposing posts and not be bothered. What I can’t is do is, read post that bash my faith, my church, and our pastor. Especially by those who have never attended a service. Let me start off by saying, I would personally like to invite you to visit any Life Church campus this Sunday. If it’s your first time and you want to sit with someone, please let me know and I will be happy to save a seat. I go to the Oklahoma City campus, it’s at NW 178th and Penn. Two services Saturday evening, four Sunday morning, and one Sunday evening. Pick one and I will be happy to meet you there! If you only come one time, that’s okay. I would prefer some visit our church, see what’s it’s really about, and them make a decision. Once you’ve attended and determine it’s not for you, then post as much as you want about our church.

If you attend the 10:00am Sunday service at the OKC location, you will see Craig “live and in person” which should alleviate the teleprompter notion.

I do not know how much Craig makes, and I don’t believe it’s my business to know that information. It seems that the mainstream non-church goers believe pastors should be destitute, and happy to accept any table scraps from the rest of us, and I don’t understand why that is. It’s unfortunate. I’m not for incredibly high salaries for pastors, but what amount is too much? How much comes from the church? What about their books? I heard Rick Warren tell the story about how he paid back all the salary he had received from his church after the success of his book, A Purpose Driven Life. So how much is too much for a pastor with 6 children.

Instead of talking about “marketing materials”, just come one time.

If you tithe to your church it is your business to know where the money is going and how much the pastor is making and all financial reports should be open to all members not guests…. It shouldn't be uncomfortable for anyone to know.

Just an observation about this thread in general...

Some of the people posting here need to remember that "people of faith," doesn't equate to "Christian." When some of you talk about "scripture" and so forth, it's amusing that you take that to be the final arbiter on all matters in this discussion. For some of us, who aren't atheists (but don't belong to any organized religion), the Bible is just one of many books written over the centuries that contain nuggets of wisdom. The problem are those who decide "their way is the only way", and say that it's true because, well, "Jesus said so!" I argued with a man from the Islamic mosque near Mayfair once about their own certainties and "truth." Some of us just simply know that life is an incredible happening, the Universe is an unfathomable mystery, and we don't have to know all the answers (certainly not THE answer) to be in awe, and even feel that there's likely more going on than we can begin to comprehend. Some of us go day-to-day thinking and pondering these big questions, that doesn't make us bad people - just thinking ones.

I really think people should decide for themselves what they think is best and follow their heart. Wether there is or isn't a God in this universe, we should all get along and support each others beliefs.

My only beef with LifeChurch is they represent themselves as a Christian church(if I recall right). From what I've seen, it does not follow biblical principles very well. That is just fine, but the people that attend their services should continue to do so upon their own right and freedom as well as knowing what it represents.

I have read parts of the bible and kind of studied different religions. I have never been to church once in my life, and that might change, I don't know. I am not opposed to the idea of going at all.

I really think people should decide for themselves what they think is best and follow their heart. Wether there is or isn't a God in this universe, we should all get along and support each others beliefs.

My only beef with LifeChurch is they represent themselves as a Christian church(if I recall right). From what I've seen, it does not follow biblical principles very well. That is just fine, but the people that attend their services should continue to do so upon their own right and freedom as well as knowing what it represents.

I have read parts of the bible and kind of studied different religions. I have never been to church once in my life, and that might change, I don't know. I am not opposed to the idea of going at all.

Plupan, you should at least give yourself the opportunity of becoming a church goer. You might not like but, then again, you might find that it changes your life. Unless you're going to the Jim Jones compound in Guyana, it shouldn't hurt anyway. :)

I completely understand that I will not be able to agree with the views of everyone here, and that’s okay. I can read opposing posts and not be bothered. What I can’t is do is, read post that bash my faith, my church, and our pastor. Especially by those who have never attended a service. Let me start off by saying, I would personally like to invite you to visit any Life Church campus this Sunday. If it’s your first time and you want to sit with someone, please let me know and I will be happy to save a seat. I go to the Oklahoma City campus, it’s at NW 178th and Penn. Two services Saturday evening, four Sunday morning, and one Sunday evening. Pick one and I will be happy to meet you there! If you only come one time, that’s okay. I would prefer some visit our church, see what’s it’s really about, and them make a decision. Once you’ve attended and determine it’s not for you, then post as much as you want about our church.

If you attend the 10:00am Sunday service at the OKC location, you will see Craig “live and in person” which should alleviate the teleprompter notion.

I do not know how much Craig makes, and I don’t believe it’s my business to know that information. It seems that the mainstream non-church goers believe pastors should be destitute, and happy to accept any table scraps from the rest of us, and I don’t understand why that is. It’s unfortunate. I’m not for incredibly high salaries for pastors, but what amount is too much? How much comes from the church? What about their books? I heard Rick Warren tell the story about how he paid back all the salary he had received from his church after the success of his book, A Purpose Driven Life. So how much is too much for a pastor with 6 children.

Instead of talking about “marketing materials”, just come one time.

Really? You don't think it's anyone's business to know how much money someone makes off the church?

How exactly is this Christ-like?

Anyone??

It's not really the pastor though, is it? Nowadays, I'm sure those decisions are made by committees or even assistant pastors. At this point, I doubt Groeschel does much more than read a teleprompter. But even if he does have a hand in the message, if it's not a cult of personality, why not do as many churches do and direct your pastors to deliver a sermon on a certain topic? Why the video linkup? LC is a brand that is too dependent on its CEO. If he goes, the whole thing falls apart. Hence it's a cult of personality.



Maybe I did a bad job communicating that. I didn't call you a cult of personality. I said you have one over at LC. I presume you go there.



Politics is a better example than you think. LC, from the marketing materials I've seen is a lot like politics in that it tries to tell the most people it can exactly what they want to hear (rather than what they need to know). I think the last thing Christ would have had in mind is people becoming extremely wealthy sharing Christ's message of love, rejection of material wealth, etc. When you look at what Christianity aspires to be and what sort of kid tested/mother approved message LC (or lack thereof) tends to share, the two don't jive at all.

Actually, i've made it quite clear that i do NOT go there, nor do i neceessarily agree with their way of doing things. i just dont make a huge leap to making them the bad guy.

What was Jesus Christ's salary/profit sharing plan?

Really? You don't think it's anyone's business to know how much money someone makes off the church?

Sure...it is the congregation's right...they determine the worthiness. It is not the right of those who are just looking for ways to discredit the person or the faith from a perch away from the flock.

What was Jesus Christ's salary/profit sharing plan?
Surely you know the ignorance of this question?

Maybe not.

Just trying to compare it to some of these megachurch pastors.

Surely he was a frazillionaire.

Anyone??

I figured it was a rhetorical question.

ok. let's try this again. How is this Christ-like?


Ken Copeland - private jet and airstrip, $6 million lakefront mansion. Combined salary with wife is around $700k a year from the "church."
John Hagee - Cornerstone in San Antonio makes around $1 million a year in salary.
Charles Blake - $900k salary and 10,000 sq mansion in Beverly Hills.
Benny Hinn - around $1m a year salary.
Joel Osteen - did make $200k from the "church" but was called out and stops pulling a salary, living off book revenue now in his 17,000 sq ft mansion.
Ed Young - Fellowship in Dallas earns $1 million a year in salary from the "church" and has a 10,000 sq ft $1.5 million home.
Franklin Graham - Earn $1.2 million before saying he would donate more and took the salary disclosure private.

If you tithe to your church it is your business to know where the money is going and how much the pastor is making and all financial reports should be open to all members not guests…. It shouldn't be uncomfortable for anyone to know.

[QUOTE=Midtowner;704129]What was Jesus Christ's salary/profit sharing plan?[/QUOTE

Death to pay for mine and your sins.

ok. let's try this again. How is this Christ-like?


Ken Copeland - private jet and airstrip, $6 million lakefront mansion. Combined salary with wife is around $700k a year from the "church."
John Hagee - Cornerstone in San Antonio makes around $1 million a year in salary.
Charles Blake - $900k salary and 10,000 sq mansion in Beverly Hills.
Benny Hinn - around $1m a year salary.
Joel Osteen - did make $200k from the "church" but was called out and stops pulling a salary, living off book revenue now in his 17,000 sq ft mansion.
Ed Young - Fellowship in Dallas earns $1 million a year in salary from the "church" and has a 10,000 sq ft $1.5 million home.
Franklin Graham - Earn $1.2 million before saying he would donate more and took the salary disclosure private.

Thou shall not covet

Death to pay for mine and your sins.

My sins? I wasnt alive then..

All of you are just talking past each other at this point.

My two cents on the matter is that (i) there are obvious discrepancies between the gospel of Jesus and the mega-church model, but at the same time (ii) these churches, especially those that emphasize service and the duties enumerated in the gospels, serve an exceedingly valuable purpose, especially in the current climate of slashing government services to those in need.

My sins? I wasnt alive then..


He knew you

He knew you

He didnt know me that well because I would have told him not to do it.

Groeschel doesn't preach prosperity but he does endorse TBN and the PTL Club and all of the prosperity/charismatics on TBN. The BGCO (Southern Baptist) are appalled at Lifechurch and there is one SBC Church in OKC that if you mention Lifechurch, you get shunned. Their reason for disliking Lifechurch is because most people ages 18-45 have left that traditional SBC Church for a more faster/upbeat non traditional service.

Groeschel doesn't preach prosperity but he does endorse TBN and the PTL Club and all of the prosperity/charismatics on TBN. The BGCO (Southern Baptist) are appalled at Lifechurch and there is one SBC Church in OKC that if you mention Lifechurch, you get shunned. Their reason for disliking Lifechurch is because most people ages 18-45 have left that traditional SBC Church for a more faster/upbeat non traditional service.

I don't disagree that many have left more traditional services to attend the "concerts" at Lifechurch; however, I do disagree with your premise that churches don't like them because of that. I highly doubt that any SBC church institutionally shuns a member for mentioning LifeChurch. I do believe there are members in every church that might do so.

btw, which church are you accusing of shunning?

Well it came out of a former member of that congregation and said they heard it more than once. Not sure what to tell you there.

I would say he was probably asleep when he thought he/she heard that then! :)

I don't disagree that many have left more traditional services to attend the "concerts" at Lifechurch; however, I do disagree with your premise that churches don't like them because of that. I highly doubt that any SBC church institutionally shuns a member for mentioning LifeChurch. I do believe there are members in every church that might do so.

btw, which church are you accusing of shunning?

If you dont think the loss of part of their flock is part of why the SBC doesn't like places like LC, you're kidding yourself. They only have themselves to blame for their close-minded ways....they lost the flock on their own accord. And for those of you that disagree with my view on what the pastor means to a congregation, there's a good example of why the leader of the lock makes a difference (in a bad way like this, or in a good way like Mr. G at LC). The flock grows/falls along with the pastor.

But last time I checked, both sides were worshipping the same God. Whether you're SBC, Catholic, Methodist, DoC, etc. i'm pretty sure at the end of the day, we're just all choosing a different method to worship the same Lord. The finger pointing and uppity ways of claiming who is right and wrong in how they worship, are the kinds of activities that serve no purpose but to stoke the fires of conflict. But last I checked on that, man also didn't get to judge that, and only the Lord was able to. You might have a personal opinion, but that doesn't make you the decider....

Groeschel doesn't preach prosperity but he does endorse TBN and the PTL Club and all of the prosperity/charismatics on TBN. The BGCO (Southern Baptist) are appalled at Lifechurch and there is one SBC Church in OKC that if you mention Lifechurch, you get shunned. Their reason for disliking Lifechurch is because most people ages 18-45 have left that traditional SBC Church for a more faster/upbeat non traditional service.

I'm not going to dive into this thread to defend or oppose LC, but I do want to at least offer something in response to this particular post.

I am an active long-time member of a Southern Baptist church, and to say that the BGCO is "appalled" at Lifechurch isn't fair or accurate. In fact, our own pastor has affirmed that many of the basic doctrines of LifeChurch are entirely consistent with those of the SBC, and I certainly have heard nothing of "shunning" LifeChurch. There is no overarching SBC notion of "shunning." Each church works as an autonomous entity. I cannot speak to what any one church might or might not be doing. I can't even fathom of my church being involved in anything remotely resembling a "shunning." So I would respectfully ask that we be very careful in any notions or implications of ascribing to the broader convention what any one church might or might not be doing. Many folks don't understand that the structure of the SBC is decentralized - that each church is, as I noted, autonomous.

If you have a specific reference or link where you could post that the SBC has released a formal position on LifeChurch, I would very much like to see it.

There is no question that the nature of the services at LC versus what would be deemed "traditional" are different. I'm for whatever gets the message of Christ out to the world; however, I think the concerns of what might be considered "old timers" like me is the degree to which an event that is intended to be a worship service becomes an entertainment event just to get people in the door. That's a fuzzy line, not a bright white one. If the flock grows too dependent on the personality of the pastor, that's a real risk for a problem.

But, as I said, no judgment of LC here at all from me, personally, or from the SBC-member church I attend. So, with all the respect I can muster, please allow me to ask you to be very careful in telegraphing the idea that there is this formal, corporate dislike for LC. That's all.

Never been to Lifechurch.TV so for those that do go, is it pretty legit? Or is it a place for "Snobby" people.