Plus the major public universities in Oklahoma were established between the 1800's and 1909. Which was decades before migration from urban cores even started in large numbers, let alone the flight from the cores several years after that and there really was an association between race and the core of the city.

As a (white) child of the Great Depression who reached majority in the early 1950s, I obviously was raised in a highly racist culture. Most of the towns in which I lived as my family shuttled around Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana (my father was Civil Service and we rarely stayed in one area more than a year) were such sunset towns. Those that weren't were totally segregated. Consequently I had hardly any contact with blacks -- even OU had not been integrated except at the graduate level by the time I graduated in 1952.

However, I quickly learned in Korea that the color of a person's skin has nothing to do with the color of his/her character. Our battalion surgeon was a graduate of Howard University; we trusted our lives to his skill and he never let us down. Sure, we had a few low-lifes in the outfit; some were black and some were white. Their lack of character had nothing to do with the quality of anyone else's!

By the time the shooting stopped and I came home -- to an improved, but still highly segregated, culture in OKC -- I had at least shed most of the unconscious prejudice I had carried on the trip out. I probably still do have a few vestiges of it, though, as do all of my contemporaries. I did try to raise my sons to be color-blind -- but unfortunately the reverse racism that I mentioned in an earlier post affected them greatly, and they reacted accordingly. I fear for my grandchildren and the one great-granddanghter, who will grow up in a more violently racist world than the one I knew in the 30s and 40s!

Race couldn't have been a factor in not locating a university downtown. That's a totally silly notion. Universities were totally segregated and there was no plan in sight for integration when that happened, so I don't see how race would have anything to do with it.
I'm willing to accept that there were other factors involved. Rural politicians surely wanted to get their "fair share" of tax payer resources (Oklahoma continues to be a net receiver of Federal dollars to this day). Puritanical anti-urbanism had heavy sway in this part of the country, another trend that continues. But state capitols have generally been considered a safe haven by minorities, so to say that race played no factor is plain denialism.

to say that race played no factor is plain denialism.Are you aware of the extreme Jim Crow laws that were in effect regarding all Oklahoma public schools, including the state colleges and universities, up until the 1950s? Blacks were allowed only Langston; they were never even allowed to attempt to enroll at the other state schools. I assume, of course, that by "race" you refer primarily to blacks -- Indians, though considered by many to be a separate race and a minority, have always been welcomed in state institutions. That's partly because so many of them became prominent in business and politics, including at least one state governor and a former president of Phillips Petroleum, not to mention Will Rogers...

It's not denialism; it just was never a consideration with regard to higher education because state law enforced segregation at the time these schools were established.

Are you aware of any reasons to live in a college town besides going to college?

I'm willing to accept that there were other factors involved. Rural politicians surely wanted to get their "fair share" of tax payer resources (Oklahoma continues to be a net receiver of Federal dollars to this day). Puritanical anti-urbanism had heavy sway in this part of the country, another trend that continues. But state capitols have generally been considered a safe haven by minorities, so to say that race played no factor is plain denialism.

The University of Oklahoma was established in 1890 which was the same year that Oklahoma City was incorporated. To portray this as some kind of rural versus urban issue shows a decided lack of knowledge of history.

Are you aware of any reasons to live in a college town besides going to college?

Yes, I grew up in a college town and it wasn't because any of my family was there to go to college.

Are you aware of any reasons to live in a college town besides going to college?

Seriously? Do you honestly think Norman, Stillwater, Edmond, Ada, Chickasha, etc., etc., etc. exist only due to the university's presence?
Sure, I did my grad level studies at OU, as did my lovely. We initially stayed in part because of our work, which we each enjoyed. We stayed for the people, the setting, and the proximity to things that make life enjoyable, and a right fair education system for the children. We may leave someday, but we're in no hurry to do so (very much contrary to game plan one, which had us out of here on grad day.)

The University of Oklahoma was established in 1890 which was the same year that Oklahoma City was incorporated. To portray this as some kind of rural versus urban issue shows a decided lack of knowledge of history.
Exactly. At the time theses universities were founded, there was no such thing as urban areas. Every present-day city was essentially a rural town at that time. I'm guessing you didn't attend primary school in Oklahoma?

The original territory Capitol and then state Capitol was Guthrie. In a political coup it was moved to OKC two years after statehood. OU site selection was finished decades before OKC even became the Capitol.

During the political process that eventually established the state and its initial state infrastructure, there was a lot of haggling/"horse trading" that went on during the territorial days that established Norman as the site of the state college. Some of that wheeling and dealing locked OKC, Guthrie, and everybody else out of any state funded competition in those early days. That had to do with the economic impact of the university. Always follow the money trail.

There are many reasons to live in a college town other than attending college. Surely folks must be aware of the fact that a sizeable part of this nations research and development is carried out at companies and organizations located in college towns. Norman is a great example of this... It's the third largest city in the state and has a lot going on from a weather sciences standpoint, among other things.

This thread just needs to die. The protagonist is only going to see one way, and he's hanging on to a basis that has merit in any other discussion but this one.

Y'know, I don't think I've ever seen a more racist and class-struggle post anywhere on this board
Class struggle and racism are opposites. As Warren Buffet said, if there was a class war, my class won. Racial fear is what is used by the elites to divide the working class along ethnic lines, thereby sabotaging class warfare, which is innate to functioning democracies.


I can understand the desire to have a campus downtown but you have to understand the history of why universities and colleges are located in most states to understand why the urban university in the major city of most states is relatively new.
Good post.

Landrun...I'm happy to hear reasons for why putting a college downtown addresses OKs/OKCs needs. You have as of yet to provide any sort of specific reasoning. You can't throw out tautologies and expect us to just go along with you.
There are 14 non-medical public universities in Oklahoma while over 1/7 of the state's population (over 500,000) live in the city limits. Therefore it is a failure to meet demand by the State Regents.

combined into 1 post

ditto

Of course, what were we thinking. A public community college and an associate degree is "always" the most advantageous choice for students. LOL

There is no doubt that is good decision for many but to say that is the most advantageous is far fetched.
Not really, it can be the most cost effective route...take care of the 1st 2 years and get your associates, then transfer to finish it up at the higher priced place.



I'm willing to accept that there were other factors involved. Rural politicians surely wanted to get their "fair share" of tax payer resources (Oklahoma continues to be a net receiver of Federal dollars to this day). Puritanical anti-urbanism had heavy sway in this part of the country, another trend that continues. But state capitols have generally been considered a safe haven by minorities, so to say that race played no factor is plain denialism.
Reportedly that is untrue. For decades, Oklahoma was considered a "donor" state, sending more in taxes to the feds than they ever got back. That recently changed and I would guess it has a lot to do with mega-expensive highway projects like the I-40 Crosstown relocation as anything. Even with the recent shift, I would imagine that it might take decades before we "break even".



The original territory Capitol and then state Capitol was Guthrie. In a political coup it was moved to OKC two years after statehood. OU site selection was finished decades before OKC even became the Capitol.

During the political process that eventually established the state and its initial state infrastructure, there was a lot of haggling/"horse trading" that went on during the territorial days that established Norman as the site of the state college. Some of that wheeling and dealing locked OKC, Guthrie, and everybody else out of any state funded competition in those early days. That had to do with the economic impact of the university. Always follow the money trail.
There are many reasons to live in a college town other than attending college. Surely folks must be aware of the fact that a sizeable part of this nations research and development is carried out at companies and organizations located in college towns. Norman is a great example of this... It's the third largest city in the state and has a lot going on from a weather sciences standpoint, among other things.
I presume you are talking about the "stealing" of the State seal in the middle of the night which makes for a great story but isn't the case on how the Capitol was moved. It was moved after a statewide vote of possible locations. OKC won.
Was the Oklahoma state seal stolen, or just the true story? (http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-6080-was-the-oklahoma-state-seal-stolen-or-just-the-true-story.html)

There are 14 non-medical public universities in Oklahoma while over 1/7 of the state's population (over 500,000) live in the city limits. Therefore it is a failure to meet demand by the State Regents.

My goodness you are such an eager beaver 99%er! Most of our public universities were placed where they are as part of a political process. This had much more to do with rural legislators (and remember, our population was once much more rural) getting their way than it had to do with making good public policy. Why did OKC have two OKC-adjacent universities (UCO and OU) and Tulsa got nada? Why was the prison located where it's located and the schools for the blind and deaf located where they are? It was about bringing home the bacon, not suppressing racial or political minorities.

At the time, no one had to worry about suppressing anyone because hey, check that box, it was done. Blacks were segregated, they had their own 'side of the tracks,' couldn't attend the same schools, etc. Political minorities? The State was run entirely by Democrats. The Republican Party at this time was something which was still pretty unpopular in the South due to the recent War of Northern Aggression.

Since then, we've moved to correct a few of those issues. OKC has added Rose State with about 13,000 students and we have OSU-OKC, boasting 8,000 students. OU and OSU are both expanding services in Tulsa. UCO isn't very far away and it has 16,000 students and Norman has about 24,000. UCO has also opened up ACM in Bricktown. Where there's a need, our institutions of higher ed are responding. You truly are getting worked up over nothing.

We are opening up a law school downtown soon. That location really makes sense for those students and will offer them greater access to the courts and to jobs.

There's no shame in claiming membership in the 99%. In contrast, private interests have been using totally fictive arguments and deceptive methods to convince people to buy into consumerism and complacency since WWI, which also happened to be the first time propaganda was used. The topic is well covered in a book called Captains of Consciousness.

To the topic of the tread, one of the characteristics of blue collar work environments I've been a part of is indirect suppression of dissent. What has happened in this thread should be proof enough OKC continues to be blue collar.

There's no shame in claiming membership in the 99%. In contrast, private interests have been using totally fictive arguments and deceptive methods to convince people to buy into consumerism and complacency since WWI, which also happened to be the first time propaganda was used. The topic is well covered in a book called Captains of Consciousness.

To the topic of the tread, one of the characteristics of blue collar work environments I've been a part of is indirect suppression of dissent. What has happened in this thread should be proof enough OKC continues to be blue collar.

LOL, well of course. Because of some undisclosed experience you have had in a blue collar work environment in OKC it is suppression of dissent and the fact that most disagree with you here is proof of why OKC is blue collar.
OK, now that that is settled, we can move on to the next topic.

I presume you are talking about the "stealing" of the State seal in the middle of the night which makes for a great story but isn't the case on how the Capitol was moved. It was moved after a statewide vote of possible locations. OKC won.
Was the Oklahoma state seal stolen, or just the true story? (http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-6080-was-the-oklahoma-state-seal-stolen-or-just-the-true-story.html)

I love how everyone assumes the other guy is a dumbass on the Internet. No, there's nothing at all political about what you just posted.