Architect: Gathering Place for Tulsa will be world-class park | Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Architect_Gathering_Place_for_Tulsa_will_be_world_ class/20130616_11_A17_CUTLIN753246)

Michael Van Valkenburgh is coming to town.

If the name doesn't ring a bell, it will soon. Van Valkenburgh, president of Michael Van Valkenburgh Associates Inc., and his team of landscape architects are about to transform the face of Tulsa with a world-class park along Riverside Drive.


It's called the Gathering Place for Tulsa, and Tuesday the public is invited to attend the unveiling of the final plan for the 55-acre park.

Van Valkenburgh will be there to share his vision.

"I think the park is remarkably diverse and the kind of place it is hard to imagine people won't come back to," Van Valkenburgh said. "I think the design is incredibly successful in connecting the Blair (Mansion) site to the Arkansas River."

The project is being funded by the George Kaiser Family Foundation at an estimated cost of $100 million to $150 million.

Jeff Stava, who is overseeing the park project for the foundation, said Van Valkenburgh's team has addressed every design challenge thrown at it.

"The result is the creation of a new, dynamic public space capturing not only the city's physical beauty but civic spirit as well - a place all Tulsans will enjoy," Stava said.

Michael Van Valkenburgh Associates was selected to design the park in July 2011, but it was months earlier, on a snowy February day, that Van Valkenburgh and his team first laid eyes on the park property.

"Our breath was taken away with the generosity and the feeling of the Blair site and the challenge of how the rest of the site - which is this wonderful river's edge - could somehow feel connected," Van Valkenburgh said, "because, if you go there now, they feel really separate."

Earlier versions of the park plan, which incorporates input gathered from five public meetings, call for ponds, playgrounds and land bridges connecting the Blair property to the River Parks trails.

The designers knew "that if we could figure out a way to tie that all together, we would have something much more powerful than what you have on the site today," Van Valkenburgh said.

Although the final design won't be made public until Tuesday, the 61-year-old native of upstate New York let it be known that the original design differs somewhat from the final design.

"I think that what we hadn't stressed at all in the early versions of the design was how much Tulsa is into eating outside - sort of the outdoor eating culture of the city," Van Valkenburgh said. "People were like, 'Oh, it would be great to go there and have places to get a beer, barbecue, stuff like that.' So that definitely changed the elements we included."

Van Valkenburgh may be best known for his design of Brooklyn Bridge Park in Brooklyn, N.Y., with its magnificent views of New York Harbor and the Manhattan skyline.

He lives just blocks from the park and never stays away long.

"It is just magnetic to go and to be around that many people having a good time - just having fun, kicking back," he said.

Van Valkenburgh expects the Gathering Place for Tulsa to have the same appeal - not simply because of its amenities, which will be numerous and varied, but because of its borrowed landscape.

"What a gift this site is - the site is incredible already," he said. "That is what reminds me of Brooklyn Bridge Park.

"In Tulsa, the context is different, but it is very powerful - just a great place for somebody to ask you to design a park because it is already so good."

The park, Van Valkenburgh believes, says a lot about the city.

"It is remarkably ambitious," he said. "This level of care and regard for the quality of life in the city is reflected by the magnitude of the project.

"In its own way, it is sort of like Tulsa trying to make its own version of New York's Central Park or San Francisco's Crissy Field."
Public meeting

What: Unveiling of Gathering Place for Tulsa final plans

When: 6 p.m. Tuesday

Where: TCC Center for Creativity, 910 S. Boston Ave.
Michael Van Valkenburgh Associates projects

Brooklyn Bridge Park, New York

Teardrop Park, New York

Hudson River Parks, New York

George W. Bush Presidential Center, Dallas

Mill Race Park, Columbus, Ind.

North Grant Park, Chicago

Allegheny Riverfront Park, Pittsburgh

Lower Don Lands, Toronto

A Gathering Place For Tulsa | Tulsa, OK (http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/)

This park will blow our Central Park out of the water and has private funding which ours will not.....

Model Of 'A Gathering Place For Tulsa' Unveiled To The Public - NewsOn6.com (http://m.newson6.com/story.aspx?story=22626210&catId=112042)

This is going to be really wonderful for Tulsa. I agree with la, it's going to blow our Central Park out of the water.

This is going to be really wonderful for Tulsa. I agree with la, it's going to blow our Central Park out of the water.

Looks nice but what is so superior with this compared to the new Central Park?

Personal preference as much as anything I suppose. I prefer the overall design and scheme of Tulsa's plan. I like that it's along the river. It just has a classier feel to it. A little less manufactured, a little more park if that makes any sense.

Looks nice but what is so superior with this compared to the new Central Park?

The design fits the site. It's better thought out and had more depth.

Cool, a park along a river that looks like crap half of the year. . . can't wait to visit it. Meanwhile, our park will be truly a world class venue that will sit right in the dead center of an urban metropolis if everything goes well with Core2Shore. If the momentum continues, the area our park will be in, will be a one of a kind place in our entire region.

Dallas is building a park along the Trinity river similar to Tulsa's, and I'm sure there are many more like it. However, our central park, should trump anything Dallas has and Tulsa is not even in the same league.

cool, a park along a river that looks like crap half of the year. . . Can't wait to visit it. Meanwhile, our park will be truly a world class venue that will sit right in the dead center of an urban metropolis if everything goes well with core2shore. If the momentum continues, the area our park will be in, will be a one of a kind place in our entire region.

Dallas is building a park along the trinity river similar to tulsa's, and i'm sure there are many more like it. However, our central park, should trump anything dallas has and tulsa is not even in the same league.

That's funny!

I know right!!!!!!

I absolutely think this is wonderful for Tulsa but I see no reason to compare it what OKC is doing. We don't have a private entity willing to spend $200 million for our park and ours is being built in a cleared urban area. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

We can trash talk all day long about the two parks however, we really need to wait for the finished products in both cities before the actual trash talk can began.

We can trash talk all day long about the two parks however, we really need to wait for the finished products in both cities before the actual trash talk can began.
Yep, both cities have a track record of failed projects like this throughout their histories. Better to wait to see what really happens.

Cool, a park along a river that looks like crap half of the year. . . can't wait to visit it. Meanwhile, our park will be truly a world class venue that will sit right in the dead center of an urban metropolis if everything goes well with Core2Shore. If the momentum continues, the area our park will be in, will be a one of a kind place in our entire region.

Dallas is building a park along the Trinity river similar to Tulsa's, and I'm sure there are many more like it. However, our central park, should trump anything Dallas has and Tulsa is not even in the same league.

Neither of the parks is anything revolutionary. Don't pretend that Central Park is a new idea. And why will the park in Tulsa look like crap half the year? If you're referring to most plants being dormant then wouldn't that same logic apply to Central Park?

Although I really do like the Central Park in OKC, my personal preference, at least from the renderings, is for A Gathering Place in Tulsa. Central Park is too structured and organized looking for my taste. Feels less like a park and more like a garden. I like the more random (although it is not) feel of A Gathering Place. This is just my personal preference, which clearly differs from yours. There's no reason to trash the park planned for Tulsa simply because you like the one planned in OKC better. They are both well-planned and will be great successes if built as planned.

You know what, ljbab is right, you really can't compare these parks as they serve a different purpose really. The park looking like crap half of the year comment was aimed at the river not being full. My question to you is, why does Tulsa not build any kind of locks to channel in the water to keep it looking good? Tulsa is loosing out and fast. Sorry to say to you, a privately funded park and a casino does not signify a good economy. I hope Tulsa has plans in place to upgrade the infrastructure around this park in order to make it appealing to new development.

It may be misconstrued at times that I want Tulsa to fail, but at this time, a reality ought to be recognized that Tulsa is no longer the top dog(if it ever was) and OKC dominates Tulsa. If the cities could share and play nice, that would be great, but it seems at times, a lot of people from Tulsa don't want anything to do with OKC and demean it; it is really bad online too!

I like OKC, but it is a completely different city from Tulsa. Have you looked at development in Tulsa lately? There's a whole lot more than just this park and the casino. The Brady and Blue Dome Districts are continuing to fill out nicely, 70 new apartments were just completed in the Greenwood District, the East End is on the verge of explosion, many of the old buildings in the CBD are being converted to apartments, the list could go on.

Since when does privately funded development signify a bad economy? What new development do you expect to go around this park? The area is filled in with housing built long ago.

I haven't seen Tulsans on here demeaning OKC. It's usually people from OKC demeaning Tulsa and then justifying it by saying that Tulsans don't like their city. Grow up and stop acting like either city needs to cede power or recognize the dominance of the other.

That's not what this thread is about, however. It's a thread about a park in Tulsa, a park which is being built and maintained by the GKFF, not the city. I view that as a good thing as I trust Kaiser more than the city when it comes to upkeep.

Do you have any idea how much it costs to build low water dams? How dangerous they can be? Have you done studies to assess the environmental impact of said dams? Personally I don't understand the obsession with water in the river at all times. Let's just leave it as it is and enjoy the water when it rains. Dams will just add further expense both initially and with maintenance to the city government. Money that be much better spent focusing on land where the major development is occurring.

You know what, ljbab is right, you really can't compare these parks as they serve a different purpose really. The park looking like crap half of the year comment was aimed at the river not being full. My question to you is, why does Tulsa not build any kind of locks to channel in the water to keep it looking good? Tulsa is loosing out and fast. Sorry to say to you, a privately funded park and a casino does not signify a good economy. I hope Tulsa has plans in place to upgrade the infrastructure around this park in order to make it appealing to new development.

It may be misconstrued at times that I want Tulsa to fail, but at this time, a reality ought to be recognized that Tulsa is no longer the top dog(if it ever was) and OKC dominates Tulsa. If the cities could share and play nice, that would be great, but it seems at times, a lot of people from Tulsa don't want anything to do with OKC and demean it; it is really bad online too!


The part of the river where the park is located IS filled with water. The Zink Lake dam has been there for 30 years or more.

I like OKC, but it is a completely different city from Tulsa. Have you looked at development in Tulsa lately? There's a whole lot more than just this park and the casino. The Brady and Blue Dome Districts are continuing to fill out nicely, 70 new apartments were just completed in the Greenwood District, the East End is on the verge of explosion, many of the old buildings in the CBD are being converted to apartments, the list could go on.

Since when does privately funded development signify a bad economy? What new development do you expect to go around this park? The area is filled in with housing built long ago.

I haven't seen Tulsans on here demeaning OKC. It's usually people from OKC demeaning Tulsa and then justifying it by saying that Tulsans don't like their city. Grow up and stop acting like either city needs to cede power or recognize the dominance of the other.

That's not what this thread is about, however. It's a thread about a park in Tulsa, a park which is being built and maintained by the GKFF, not the city. I view that as a good thing as I trust Kaiser more than the city when it comes to upkeep.

Do you have any idea how much it costs to build low water dams? How dangerous they can be? Have you done studies to assess the environmental impact of said dams? Personally I don't understand the obsession with water in the river at all times. Let's just leave it as it is and enjoy the water when it rains. Dams will just add further expense both initially and with maintenance to the city government. Money that be much better spent focusing on land where the major development is occurring.Yeah, I've been to Tulsa about three times in the past 4 weeks, it sucked every time. The roads were horrible(yes worse than OKC), the people were alright, the city was bleak; at night it was worse, Blue Dome District and Brady District had tons of vacant lots and no momentum. Midtown has a bunch of vacant lots as well, but at least there are tons of infill projects, I couldn't even begin to list what is coming, there is whole website full of it(oh thats here!!!!!!).

Never said it signifies a bad economy, but when all a city really has to show for is a new park and a new casino, meanwhile we're over here looking at a new-somewhatish-lifestyle center with huge retailer names, 30 story spec tower, streetcar system, two massive urban housing units etc..... That's all I meant by it. There are no urban developments that even come close to what OKC is getting, and C2S will only make that worse.

As for what this thread is about, I understand what this is about and I posted my opinions on it. I can't tell you how many times I've seen Tulsans bash OKC on the internet and in real life. I was at Cazs or something like that, in the Brady district as soon as I mentioned I was from OKC, a group of people I was sitting with went on a rant about the place and how Tulsa was on the rise going to stomp OKC. All I could do was shake my head as any time I tried to defend OKC and set the facts straight, they were like a group of monkeys and started getting loud and stupid. This has happened on multiple occasions with different people. A strong, leading, and dominant city does need to be recognized and that is OKC!

As far as the dam issue, give me a freakin' break man. . . OKC built their locks just fine, I'm sure Tulsa can do it. Are they still having to turn off their highway lights at night due to lack of funding?

Not here to defend Tulsa, because what posters have said about Tulsans just absolutely hating OKC beyond reason is true, but it does have many things going for it. Obviously, OKC is progressing much faster: NBA, complete Downtown reinvention, streetcar, office towers, residential, etc., but Tulsa is a smaller city that has had a leg up on OKC in many ways. I see Tulsa subtly refining itself, while OKC is booming. The phenomena are very different but frankly OKC needs to boom to match some of the quality of life offerings Tulsa has had for much longer.

Economically speaking, though, OKC is reaching critical mass and is far more dynamic than Tulsa at this point. For many years, OKC's economy was almost entirely tied to government employment, but it is now a cradle of private and public sector employment. The cities are not on the same level now, as OKC is quickly moving toward big-league status while Tulsa is still a very nice city, but not one that is among the top tier of cities.

Do you have any idea how much it costs to build low water dams? How dangerous they can be? Have you done studies to assess the environmental impact of said dams? Personally I don't understand the obsession with water in the river at all times. Let's just leave it as it is and enjoy the water when it rains. Dams will just add further expense both initially and with maintenance to the city government. Money that be much better spent focusing on land where the major development is occurring.

We just build some like ten years ago, so we have a good idea of cost. Though I am not sure if it was intentional or not but something thing that ended up working out nice for OKC's is the parks and spaces that encourage people to be near the river are away from the dams and the zone of water that are problematic, and the parts near the dams are generally pretty isolated with little or nothing to draw people to them. It seems like part of the problem Tulsa has had is that a park was constructed right by the worst spot for people go if they are to get in the water; with parking, grand steps/amphitheater down to the bank of part of the danger area and aesthetic features that could give a false sense of security to the area. I am sure people could still do something stupid and die at ours but they would either have to walk pretty far out of the way or swim several hundred meters to a couple thousand meters to do so. It would be an improvement if the corp of engineers would come up with better markers, probably that would even say do not go past them large enough everyone will see that, if it was not for being told by more experienced people what they marked I would not have gotten the clue what they were. Given Tulsa has had more issues with safety at the low water dam there, it is a bit odd that the safety markers there are not at least as far out as the ones here (theirs are like 50ft verses ours at like 300ft). Tulsa and OKC as far as economic impact of building dams are in different situations, the area that borders the river is already built up in Tulsa so new dams would not add as much value added as it did here, here the amount it elevated the property values and lead to new building along it of hotels and commercial property has collected several times what the cost was and still has a lot more developable land, the fact that it makes the areas looks nicer and has added recreational opportunities was just bonuses.

Not here to defend Tulsa, because what posters have said about Tulsans just absolutely hating OKC beyond reason is true, but it does have many things going for it. Obviously, OKC is progressing much faster: NBA, complete Downtown reinvention, streetcar, office towers, residential, etc., but Tulsa is a smaller city that has had a leg up on OKC in many ways. I see Tulsa subtly refining itself, while OKC is booming. The phenomena are very different but frankly OKC needs to boom to match some of the quality of life offerings Tulsa has had for much longer.

Economically speaking, though, OKC is reaching critical mass and is far more dynamic than Tulsa at this point. For many years, OKC's economy was almost entirely tied to government employment, but it is now a cradle of private and public sector employment. The cities are not on the same level now, as OKC is quickly moving toward big-league status while Tulsa is still a very nice city, but not one that is among the top tier of cities.That's a very fair assessment.

The low water dam that creates Zink Lake is right by this park, and will eventually be rebuilt 3-4 feet higher than it is currently and with a gradual step decline to lessen the danger if you happen to go over. That way it will also look less like a dam and more like a natural waterfall. There is a natural fall in the river at this location as well as a rock jetty that creates rapids below the dam that will be preserved for kayakers. Also as part of a funding package that will go to voters in November the pedestrian bridge will have two levels, one for joggers below and one for bikes above that will tie into the Midland Valley trail that goes to downtown and the river trails on both banks, all of which have been updated with dual lanes for bikes and joggers.

You cant compare the North Canadian/Oklahoma River to the Arkansas, as they are very different. It is much easier and cheaper to build dams on the Oklahoma because it is less than half the width and flows are much less, while the Arkansas in a quarter mile wide and drains a large part of the region.

The design of the park is meant to connect with the river while also creating a public green space out of what has been a private piece of property for many years. It includes plans to connect to the surrounding area through a new trail along Crow Creek to Brookside a half mile to the east and eventually includes a plan to build a childrens museum, in addition to the new building already planned. Wiliams and ONEOK have already commoted over $25 million to the construction of these structures so it's not entirely privately funded by GKFF.

Good for Tulsa and its residents. It definitely seems more naturally-fitting than the OKC Core to Shore park. If realized, it will be successful off the bat with a ready population of across-the-street users. It will be close Utica Square and Brookside in the tony Midtown part of Tulsa.

I'll say this for OKC, though: the Core to Shore park won't have the ready-made user base, but it does provide an opportunity to placemake from scratch. It's an absolute necessity to build dense neighborhoods to surround the park with a local users, but we can do it with a greater variety of housing types and killer, walkable commercial districts on either side of the park. Whereas A Gathering Place for Tulsa will vastly improve how Midtown Tulsa interfaces with the river, the Core to Shore park will have a greater POTENTIAL to be a game-changer for the city. We just have to execute a bold vision well.

I am just going to say that despite Panda's claims that many, many Tulsans have been giving him the business about OKC....Panda was the one bringing the heat to this thread, in the Tulsa forum, and then complaining that we Tulsans are the problem. Nevermind that he doesn't know what he is talking about in regards to almost every statement he has made about the City of Tulsa or what is going on here.

I think there is another general assumption that is taking place with this larger discussion, which is that Tulsa is looking to emulate OKC. It's just not true. I can say it as one who is highly involved in these things here...OKC only comes up in discussions about distributions of capital, and bias in the State offices (i.e. Department of Transportation, State Legislature.), and State entities like The State Board Of Regents or the OU Board of Regents. It's normal stuff. Most states have this kind of competition because resources are limited. I digress... The concept that we are jealous of OKC's growth is a red herring. Tulsa's goal is not to be an "NBA City". Our identity isn't tied to that kind of recognition. Our identity is going to be attached to our inherent quality of life capacity, our support for the Arts at all levels, our thirst for culture, our acceptance of diversity, opportunities for quality education at all levels, and of our support for entrepreneurship. We think those things will ultimately result in the best kind of economic strength...an organic, interconnected community that accepts and attracts and retains talented people and supports families of all kinds.

So you all who say OKC and Tulsa are growing in different directions are right. We are growing differently, and it's more by design than you are giving credit for.

I am just going to say that despite Panda's claims that many, many Tulsans have been giving him the business about OKC....Panda was the one bringing the heat to this thread, in the Tulsa forum, and then complaining that we Tulsans are the problem. Nevermind that he doesn't know what he is talking about in regards to almost every statement he has made about the City of Tulsa or what is going on here.Keep telling yourself that. I'll let the actions speak for themselves. Let's see where Tulsa is in 15 years vs. OKC.

BTW, I frequently visit Tulsa, and the place is turning into a dump, really fast. Bring some leadership and vision to your city, and I'll respect it. To add, that, just completely forget that I have mentioned I sincerely hope it works out for Tulsa and that they benefit from this. Forget that I have posted several threads in this section in concern for Tulsa and their projects.

I speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and if that is too much for you handle, I don't know what else to say there, ol' chap.

Keep telling yourself that. I'll let the actions speak for themselves. Let's see where Tulsa is in 15 years vs. OKC.

BTW, I frequently visit Tulsa, and the place is turning into a dump, really fast. Bring some leadership and vision to your city, and I'll respect it.

What he said was true. Your snarky comments aren't needed. Tulsa is not quickly turning into a dump, I have absolutely no idea where you get that impression. Honestly, I can't think of quickly degenerating areas.

Please take your rude demeanor and commentary elsewhere or keep it to yourself. It is not constructive nor deserved by any posters in this thread.

What he said was true. Your snarky comments aren't needed. Tulsa is not quickly turning into a dump, I have absolutely no idea where you get that impression. Honestly, I can't think of quickly degenerating areas.

Please take your rude demeanor and commentary elsewhere or keep it to yourself. It is not constructive nor deserved by any posters in this thread.What he said was an opinion.

This will be my last post on this issue. During my past visits to Tulsa, the whole city seemed depressing. Tulsa has no leadership and no vision. The freakin city can't even afford to keep some of their highway lights on at night. Open your eyes and look around; Tulsa sucks right now. Get some momentum going for your city, pass something like MAPS and get the ball rolling. If you have a problem with my opinions on things, tough. I'm not going to cater to you and your feelings and lie about what I truly think of the city, sorry. Criticism won't always be constructive and that is life.

I give credit where credit is due, and the only thing I can give Tulsa credit for a citizen having the comity pride to spend $100+ million on a park for the city, congrats. As I've said, we'll see where OKC is in 15 years and then we'll take a look at Tulsa, good luck to you man, and perhaps even the two cities can one day work with one another to better themselves.

I would just ignore Plutonic Panda. He obviously has an ax to grind and doesn't contribute anything constructive to this thread.

Some more renderings:

Aerial
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Page77-1000x772.jpg

Final Schematic Design Plan
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Page10-1000x772.jpg

Lakeview Lawn
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/g1024_Lakeview-Lawn-1000x666.jpg

Turtle Island/Crow Creek Trail connecting the park to Brookside
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/g1024_Turtle-Island-1000x666.jpg

Swing Hill
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/g1024_Swing-Hill-1000x739.jpg

The Lodge (Williams donating $16 million to the construction)
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/g1024_Lodge_entry-994x800.jpg

Four Seasons Garden
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/g1024_Four-Seasons-Garden-1000x666.jpg

Boathouse (ONEOK donating $10 million to the construction)
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/g1024_Boathouse-Entry-1000x666.jpg

Blair Pond
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/g1024_Blair-Pond-Copy-1000x666.jpg

What he said was an opinion.

This will be my last post on this issue. During my past visits to Tulsa, the whole city seemed depressing. Tulsa has no leadership and no vision. The freakin city can't even afford to keep some of their highway lights on at night. Open your eyes and look around; Tulsa sucks right now. Get some momentum going for your city, pass something like MAPS and get the ball rolling. If you have a problem with my opinions on things, tough. I'm not going to cater to you and your feelings and lie about what I truly think of the city, sorry. Criticism won't always be constructive and that is life.

I give credit where credit is due, and the only thing I can give Tulsa credit for a citizen having the comity pride to spend $100+ million on a park for the city, congrats. As I've said, we'll see where OKC is in 15 years and then we'll take a look at Tulsa, good luck to you man, and perhaps even the two cities can one day work with one another to better themselves.

PluPan, I luv ya, but...

I do have to disagree with you. Tulsa may not be a bright shining star right now but, man oh man, it sure does have a lot that OKC doesn't...like nice hotels along the highway (for example east of Yale along the south side of I-44), they actually have a master trails system for jogging/cycling that morphs what OKC has. The city is beautiful from the distance no matter where you are (due to the rolling Green Hill country and a REAL river). Tulsa is actually working on building a low water dam south of the Creek Turnpike which will cover up those sandbars. The south sides of Tulsa have very nice streets for traffic flow (I remember when I was a kid and 71st between Yale and Lewis was only a two lane wide road)! Last but not least Tulsa has an enriched art scene and community. I give Tulsa props personally.

I like where the fit and finish seems to be going on this project more than ours.

Keep telling yourself that. I'll let the actions speak for themselves. Let's see where Tulsa is in 15 years vs. OKC.

BTW, I frequently visit Tulsa, and the place is turning into a dump, really fast. Bring some leadership and vision to your city, and I'll respect it. To add, that, just completely forget that I have mentioned I sincerely hope it works out for Tulsa and that they benefit from this. Forget that I have posted several threads in this section in concern for Tulsa and their projects.

I speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and if that is too much for you handle, I don't know what else to say there, ol' chap.


You are right. I am an old chap. Old enough to know that the course of history isn't written in just 15 years. This is a great time in OKC's history. Enjoy it. It's not often that one is able to recognize the golden years while they are happening. Usually we realize they were golden in hindsight, after they are gone.


What is incomprehensible is how you can claim to be a frequent visitor to Tulsa and say its on the decline. That is false. It just is. It ruins your credibility as a critic...and just makes you a troll.

Edit: By the way, the park is going to be amazing. It's an amazing location and site, and Michael Van Valkenburg, who is the designer, is a rock star in Landscape Architecture circles. (http://www.mvvainc.com/news.php) The best on planet earth. Thanks to GKFF, The Tulsa Community Foundation and all of the other individual donors to the park. Hopefully we can be thanking the taxpayers for some of the $$ after November 12 too.

Tulsa's new golden years are ahead of us. But not as far away as everyone thinks.

You are right. I am an old chap. Old enough to know that the course of history isn't written in just 15 years. This is a great time in OKC's history. Enjoy it. It's not often that one is able to recognize the golden years while they are happening. Usually we realize they were golden in hindsight, after they are gone.


What is incomprehensible is how you can claim to be a frequent visitor to Tulsa and say its on the decline. That is false. It just is. It ruins your credibility as a critic...and just makes you a troll.

Edit: By the way, the park is going to be amazing. It's an amazing location and site, and Michael Van Valkenburg, who is the designer, is a rock star in Landscape Architecture circles. (http://www.mvvainc.com/news.php) The best on planet earth. Thanks to GKFF, The Tulsa Community Foundation and all of the other individual donors to the park. Hopefully we can be thanking the taxpayers for some of the $$ after November 12 too.

Tulsa's new golden years are ahead of us. But not as far away as everyone thinks.

OKC and Tulsa need golden years to last. I hope that's what we're seeing now. Tulsa is getting better as is OKC. We're improving every day. This is great for Oklahoma.

Tulsa's park is going to be way more amazing than OKC's. It's already in a natural setting along the REAL Arkansas River (which is dammed below the old railroad bridge/trails bridge) along with historic neighborhoods to the east of it. OKC's park is going to be properties and streets bulldozed, dirt formed and built with wooded sections, prairie sections, grand lawn sections, lake sections, trails sections in an area that is nothing like what Tulsa already has and there will be nothing around it but crappy neighborhoods (people that don't care about upkeeping their properties) and empty lots expected to be filled with core-to-shore development.

Tulsa's is going to be far more grand in the short run than OKC's because there's not anything already in place. Don't get me wrong, I hope one day ours is surrounded by all kinds of urban residential developments that are also filled with retail spots and I hope the Lower Park is lined by a restored and reinvigorated Hub Cap Alley.

Cheers to Tulsa though for the foresight on this park!

Tulsa's park is going to be way more amazing than OKC's. It's already in a natural setting along the REAL Arkansas River (which is dammed below the old railroad bridge/trails bridge) along with historic neighborhoods to the east of it. OKC's park is going to be properties and streets bulldozed, dirt formed and built with wooded sections, prairie sections, grand lawn sections, lake sections, trails sections in an area that is nothing like what Tulsa already has and there will be nothing around it but crappy neighborhoods (people that don't care about upkeeping their properties) and empty lots expected to be filled with core-to-shore development.

Tulsa's is going to be far more grand in the short run than OKC's because there's not anything already in place. Don't get me wrong, I hope one day ours is surrounded by all kinds of urban residential developments that are also filled with retail spots and I hope the Lower Park is lined by a restored and reinvigorated Hub Cap Alley.

Cheers to Tulsa though for the foresight on this park!

Honestly, what I think would have been better for OKC would have been to develop a riverside park going along the Oklahoma River instead of perpendicular to it. We're just insisting on this C2S stuff, but that's what I personally would have preferred. Of course, we ran I-40 parallel to it so we'll go with it, but it could have been done better.

Actually I agree with the sentiment that the only thing these two projects have in common is that they are open space. But I don't look at it as Gathering Place>Core2Shore. They just serve different purposes from an urban development standpoint....I WISH Tulsa's downtown had better connections to the river. But our founding fathers had the foresight to found the town on high ground....so its about 3/4 of a mile away if you take Denver Ave into downtown from Riverside. Core2Shore is a really smart thing to do...how often does a city get an opportunity to create open space like that in its business district?

If I ever gave the impression that C2S sucked...that was not my intent.

Lol, I never read that from your posts, nor do I hope anyone reads that out of mine. I just know that development around our park is going to take much longer than people expect and it won't be a true gathering place for the masses as envisioned until there are residential units built around it for people that care.

Lol, I never read that from your posts, nor do I hope anyone reads that out of mine. I just know that development around our park is going to take much longer than people expect and it won't be a true gathering place for the masses as envisioned until there are residential units built around it for people that care.

You are right. Core 2 Shore, as totally envisioned, probably won't be in full swing until 2025 or maybe even 2030. The park is definitely part of a long term plan. It's my hope that it is completed during a decent economy so we can more quickly start to see residential towers go up surrounding it.

As far as OKC vs Tulsa, I think OKC should be more willing to recognize areas where Tulsa is obviously ahead and learn from them. There are many, and I am not going to list them but its not anti-OKC to say Tulsa is better in this or that area. With the right investment and good luck, OKC could catch up to and surpass Tulsa in almost every area they are ahead within five years. Likewise, it would be cool if more Tulsa residents would acknowledge OKC's recent successes and stop seeing them as a threat to Tulsa's cultural superiority and getting defensive about it. Tulsa may be the arts/cultural capital of the state but OKC isn't that far behind. It's not like OKC is completely devoid of any culture or creative class like some Tulsa civic boosters try to say it is.

When comparing OKC and Tulsa, the part of the equation many people leave out is history and where each city started at. OKC pre-MAPS was not a good place to live. It was somewhat of a miniature southern Detroit without the posh suburbs to prop it up. Tulsa, at its worst, was merely an OK place to live but never fell into the type of despair OKC did in the 1980s. The transformation in OKC has been nothing short of monumental considering where it started.

We need to stop comparing OKC and Tulsa. They are different cities, both doing well. When one recognizes the essence of what Tulsa is and how it is different from OKC, one understands that Tulsa is perfectly content with not growing by leaps and bounds. The development community is more content by making waves with lots of small pebbles rather than just a few large boulders, and they are doing it independently of the stink that is their political leadership, because it is a beautiful city worth loving and investing in regardless of whether you get meaningful city hall connections out of it.

OKC is different, more conservative, more capitalist, more landrun, more diverse, more big city. It's a city that strives for the spotlight and for as much growth as soon as possible. OKC is striving to become Dallas whereas Tulsa likens itself as more of a Savannah or Asheville.

Work has started on the park. It's just utility relo so far, but it is a start.

You are right. I am an old chap. Old enough to know that the course of history isn't written in just 15 years. This is a great time in OKC's history. Enjoy it. It's not often that one is able to recognize the golden years while they are happening. Usually we realize they were golden in hindsight, after they are gone.


What is incomprehensible is how you can claim to be a frequent visitor to Tulsa and say its on the decline. That is false. It just is. It ruins your credibility as a critic...and just makes you a trollSay whatever you want to say. I go to Tulsa every other week and the place sucks. I do not enjoy being there. It is depressing and I can't wait to leave. Can't tell you why that is, I just don't like the vibe at this point in time. To me it is like Austin and Memphis.... you drive through Austin and you see everything going on around you and you think "man, this city is booming!", then you drive through Memphis and you eager to just get out of the city.

That being said, do I want Tulsa to succeed? Hell yes I do! I wish nothing ill on any city, especially one in Oklahoma. I see great things ahead for Tulsa as long as their leadership changes, which I believe will happen. If I ever make it big time, there some large developments I would like to put in T-town. They have the potential and they need to utilize it. Tulsa has one of the best skylines for any city it's size and it is beautiful; it also about to get bigger within the next 5-8 years.

Don't take what I say and make it my final overall opinion of the place. There things I like about Tulsa, believe it or not.... it just won't ever be the city OKC is.

Update on the park:


Williams to showcase A Gathering Place for Tulsa model

For the next seven weeks, One Williams Center will showcase a large model of A Gathering Place for Tulsa, the philanthropist-led park development to be located along Riverside Drive.
At a news conference Friday, Williams announced naming commemorations for the park and unveiled the 23- by 10-foot model. It will be on display in the atrium from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. weekdays until May 28.

“Williams is proud to support A Gathering Place for Tulsa, and we welcome everyone to come see the model,” Williams CEO Alan Armstrong said. “We are committed to making Tulsa a great place to live. This park is going to do great things for our city’s economic and social sustainability.”

Williams was the first major donor to partner in the park development with a 10-year, $16 million pledge announced last year. Fittingly, the Williams Lodge will be the park’s primary welcome and gathering center for visitors.

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Some more details:


This legacy will continue with certain park elements carrying the Williams name. The main entry street on Riverside will be named for John H. Williams, who believed in the project and its benefits for the city.

The community room, housed in the Williams Lodge, will carry Joe Williams’ name. The community room will be a space to host gatherings, receptions, dinners and events.


Phase I of A Gathering Place will be constructed from 26th to 31st streets on the east side of Riverside Drive and from 26th Street to 33rd Place along the west side.


The official groundbreaking is scheduled for late June or early July. Construction is scheduled for completion in late 2017.


Phase I of the project is estimated to cost $300 million, including $50 million to purchase the land. The Kaiser Foundation bought the acreage and has committed another $125 million toward construction of the park.

Read more from Tulsa World here: http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/williams-to-showcase-a-gathering-place-for-tulsa-model/article_073e8600-bc56-11e3-8221-001a4bcf6878.html

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This will be an awesome asset to Tulsa and likely one of the best regional parks around. This park easily beats any park I've seen even in Dallas. Can't wait to explore it in person.

Here is the website and some more renderings!

Lodge Concept
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/2012.05.23_Public-Presentation_FINAL_Page_76-1000x772.jpg

Lodge and water play concept
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/2012.05.23_Public-Presentation_FINAL_Page_81-1000x772.jpg

other renderings
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/2012.05.23_Public-Presentation_FINAL_Page_52-1000x772.jpg
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Some other layout plans

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Overhead layout

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Some other useful graphics and charts

http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/2012.05.23_Public-Presentation_FINAL_Page_15-1000x772.jpg
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The conceptual presentation with tons of more pictures, concepts, and the overall goal for the park: CONCEPT PRESENTATION | A Gathering Place For Tulsa (http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/park_gallery/test/)


A Gathering Place For Tulsa | Tulsa, OK (http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/)

A few more renderings:

http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/g1024_Adventure-Playground-Copy-641x800.jpg
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/g1024_Great-Lawn-1000x739.jpg
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/g1024_Sky-Garden-1000x739.jpg
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/g1024_Lakeview-Lawn_fireworks-1000x666.jpg

(I tried not to post pictures that have already been posted, if I did, sorry in advance and please let me know or request they be removed)

View more renderings here(there are tons of them):

Gathering Place Unveiled June 2013 | A Gathering Place For Tulsa (http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/park_gallery/gathering-place-unveiled-june-2013-gallery/)

Unveiled Presentation 6/18/13 | A Gathering Place For Tulsa (http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/park_gallery/new-gallery-one/)

Existing statues being moved for this project...


13 River Parks sculptures to be moved out of A Gathering Place construction path

Thirteen pieces of art along River Parks trail system will be relocated to accommodate construction of A Gathering Place for Tulsa park on Riverside Drive.

The George Kaiser Family Foundation, which is constructing the park with financial assistance from corporate and philanthropic organizations, will provide a grant to River Parks to cover the cost of the relocations.

"We are hoping to find a home for most of them —— if not all of them —— in River Parks. That would be our first choice —— or at least in the public setting," said River Parks Executive Director Matt Meyer.

River Parks includes 26 miles of asphalt-surfaced trails stretching along the east bank of the Arkansas River from 11th to 101st streets and along the west bank from 11th to 71st streets. River Parks also oversees the Katy Trail between Sand Springs and Tulsa and the dirt trails on Turkey Mountain.

Jeff Stava, project manager for A Gathering Place, said there is no way to leave the art pieces in place over the three to four years it will take to construct the park. "River Parks has chosen to relocate the sculptures to other areas of the park," Stava said.

- Read more here: 13 River Parks sculptures to be moved out of A Gathering Place construction path - Tulsa World: Local (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/river-parks-sculptures-to-be-moved-out-of-a-gathering/article_edf37710-2446-5ea9-a5ff-1a090948e192.html)

Kaiser Foundation donates A Gathering Place to River Parks Authority - Tulsa World: Newshomepage3 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/newshomepage3/kaiser-foundation-donates-a-gathering-place-to-river-parks-authority/article_6091fc55-f5ed-52e2-b381-bed1abd8d474.html)

Big news

Wow. I am actually jealous of Tulsa with this. What a nice park.

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This is nicer than any park I've seen in Dallas. F#ckin awesome!!!!!!

- http://www.tulsaworld.com/photovideo/slideshows/photo-gallery-see-the-gathering-place-playground-d-model/collection_9feab976-3b83-5827-9426-1aed2265daa7.html

Sorry, but all of the big pencils sticking up out of the ground don't do anything for me.

Sorry, but all of the big pencils sticking up out of the ground don't do anything for me.

Hahahahaha. I hope you are kidding..lol thats good!

I'm not really sure how to feel about this one. The overall idea seems like it's a good one, but it all feels very disconnected...and full of crap. They say they are trying to tie it all together through landscaping, but it seems to me that if you want to have different areas serve different purposes, then that's fine....in fact make it VERY clear that they are different areas. It's like they dont really know which way they want to go.

The play areas look like they will be a blast for the kids though. So many places are so worried about lawsuits and crap that they dont get creative with their equipment anymore. I'm glad to see something different being done. If the thing is done the way that it's shown here, i would imagine that it will be full of families all the time. Not knowing what materials they are going to use, the look of it makes me concerned that storms will cause significant damage though. There are a LOT of pieces there. Maintenance will be a pain in the rear and will take a lot of money.

I also like the fact that they are trying to incorporate some adult activities like the water features. Movie in the park things always fizzle out, but at least that area could be used for other things like Shakespeare in the Park, or some local concerts, etc.

This is what the Myriad and the Central park SHOULD be trying to do with each other.....activities for all in a place that allows everyone to do more than one thing (unlike most smaller parks).

I'd have to say, if built as planned, it seems much more inspired/imaginative than the latest OCK renderings we've seen.

Good God plutonic panda, I don't even know where to start.

As a kid growing up in OKC (not edmond, or moore, or norman, but okc), I remember when our downtown was a pile of empty buildings and would imagine what it would look like if we got another tower. We have alot of NEW momentum going for us, yes, but lets not act like it has been that way forever. Tulsa for a long time has had the money to get past there ****ty city government, and you need to look no further than Utica park. OKC has nothing like that and quite frankly we never will. We can try to turn Classen curve into it, but its not. You cant build the look and feel of a well aged outdoor mall. Next you should drive around areas like swan lake, brookside, and all the neighborhoods in between. Aside from manuvering around an art museum that visually puts any in OKC to shame (philbrook) you will notice that those areas of town have been well kept for years.

Also, I just moved to Tulsa from OKC and have never experienced any of the animosity you speak off. Quite frankly the way you approached this thread in an attacking manner leads me to believe that you may have been the instigator in those conversations. OKC has PLENTY of really rough areas you and any other person from the OKC area need to convince your city government fix out before you worry about the problems of tulsa (10th street, lyerwood, segments of NE and SW okc). I imagine though that you tend to avoid those areas.

Both cities are great, and have positives that out weigh each other. OKC is fortunate to be the capital of the state and have a major university just 20 minutes south as well as 2 minutes east, and Tulsa is one of the most philanthropic cities in america (much more so than okc, just check out the united way campaigns). How about we build each other up instead of tear each other down?

I'm actually just about to leave to drive to Tulsa right now. I go there all the time. It is a crappy city man. I'm sorry to have to say it, but the place absolutely sucks.

I give credit where it is due, and while Tulsa has a few(and I use that word strongly) nice venues, nearly the whole city is littered with horrible streets and parking craters.

I'm not going to get into another pointless debate about this. Tulsa will grow and is already looking at a few nice developments. Hopefully it works out for them.

Groundbreaking ceremony for 'A Gathering Place for Tulsa' scheduled for Sept. 20 - KJRH.com (http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/groundbreaking-ceremony-for-a-gathering-place-for-tulsa-scheduled-for-sept-20)

Gathering Place groundbreaking is Saturday - Tulsa World: Gatheringplace (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/gatheringplace/gathering-place-groundbreaking-is-saturday/article_bac048aa-2dd9-5a3b-b20f-310d1187be8c.html)

Proposed facility for A Gathering Place has some residents upset - Tulsa World: Gatheringplace (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/gatheringplace/proposed-facility-for-a-gathering-place-has-some-residents-upset/article_9b273d5f-b801-5b80-8370-641f5ce49ec1.html)

Construction begins on Tulsa's newest park - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/27313667/construction-begins-on-tulsas-newest-park)

Dirt-moving begins for Gathering Place - Tulsa World: Gatheringplace (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/gatheringplace/dirt-moving-begins-for-gathering-place/article_7356487d-ab43-5b7c-a898-ecc73b0a78c0.html)

What kind of development is going to be catalyzed around this site? Tulsa has limited growth opportunities...

What kind of development is going to be catalyzed around this site? Tulsa has limited growth opportunities...Are they going to develop around the park? I thought they were going to try and keep it secluded at least somewhat.

So Tulsa continues to flounder on development.