Grocery stores are such a red herring anyway. When I lived in the 63rd and May area I lived further from a decent grocery store than I do living downtown, at least after the two supermarkets at that intersection closed. I'd venture that more than half the people in Edmond, Norman, etc. live further from a supermarket than those in downtown do from Homeland at 18th & Classen.

Grocery stores are such a red herring anyway. When I lived in the 63rd and May area I lived further from a decent grocery store than I do living downtown, at least after the two supermarkets at that intersection closed. I'd venture that more than half the people in Edmond, Norman, etc. live further from a supermarket than those in downtown do from Homeland at 18th & Classen.

Agreed. Since Wal-Mart saturated the market with supercenters, the grocery stores that used to be on every corner are almost gone. I wish Homeland would remodel the 18th and Classen store to be like Britton and May or N Bryant in Edmond.

Agreed. Since Wal-Mart saturated the market with supercenters, the grocery stores that used to be on every corner are almost gone. I wish Homeland would remodel the 18th and Classen store to be like Britton and May or N Bryant in Edmond.

And why don't they? I just don't understand it. While most people living downtown can't walk to that Homeland, it's certainly closer to me than most grocery stores are to suburban dwellers. It's nice to walk and pick up groceries, but not mandatory, IMO. I love Native Roots, but for my Rice Krispie fix I have to go to Homeland. If that Homeland were remodeled, I bet business would increase substantially. I bet Whole Foods gets a lot of the Heritage Hills and Mesta Park business that might otherwise go to a nice Homeland.

I blame both Walmart and the mismanagement that lead to the collapse of Fleming is what killed the grocery market in this city. I know Buchanan's and a few others sold out to Fleming out of fear of Walmart putting them under. The rest dug their heels in and were ready to fight. The collaps of Fleming took out the rest of stores because they couldn't find suppliers that would allow them to continue to operate and still make a comfortable living.

Fleming? Wasn't that like 10 years ago?

our grocery market here sucks, it is one of the top things I hate about here compared to when I lived back home in Houston, but that's for another thread.

our grocery market here sucks, it is one of the top things I hate about here compared to when I lived back home in Houston, but that's for another thread.

They say every time a Wal-Mart Supercenter opens, at least two neighborhood grocers close their doors. I don't think any other city has as many Supercenters per capita as OKC. The only way a national chain is going to come in and try to compete in a market so dominated by Wal-Mart is if they can sell wine or liquor. As is, even if they were successful the profit margin would be so thin I don't think companies see it as worth the investment.

I blame both Walmart and the mismanagement that lead to the collapse of Fleming is what killed the grocery market in this city. I know Buchanan's and a few others sold out to Fleming out of fear of Walmart putting them under. The rest dug their heels in and were ready to fight. The collaps of Fleming took out the rest of stores because they couldn't find suppliers that would allow them to continue to operate and still make a comfortable living.


They say every time a Wal-Mart Supercenter opens, at least two neighborhood grocers close their doors. I don't think any other city has as many Supercenters per capita as OKC. The only way a national chain is going to come in and try to compete in a market so dominated by Wal-Mart is if they can sell wine or liquor. As is, even if they were successful the profit margin would be so thin I don't think companies see it as worth the investment.

So, how did we get to be so Walmart heavy? Did Fleming Foods provide a distribution for local grocers that was the only possible way for a local grocer to compete with Walmart? How does Crest do it? Is there a replacement to Fleming Foods? How about the Allied Grocer people out by the airport? Why did Fleming Foods die? Was Walmart complicit in their failure?
I know there's a lot of chicken and egg-type questions here, but I had completely forgotten about Fleming Foods and just thought that our Walmartization was something normal and natural in the evolution of grocers. I'm not so sure, anymore. Any ideas on that?

So, how did we get to be so Walmart heavy? Did Fleming Foods provide a distribution for local grocers that was the only possible way for a local grocer to compete with Walmart? How does Crest do it? Is there a replacement to Fleming Foods? How about the Allied Grocer people out by the airport? Why did Fleming Foods die? Was Walmart complicit in their failure?
I know there's a lot of chicken and egg-type questions here, but I had completely forgotten about Fleming Foods and just thought that our Walmartization was something normal and natural in the evolution of grocers. I'm not so sure, anymore. Any ideas on that?

My co-worker was with Fleming for over 20 years. I asked why they died, and he said lots of reasons, but it started by buying Scrivner. Over extended with debt, they institued the 'FFMP', Fleming Flexible Marketing Plan, in which vendors were charged delivery charges by the mile, putting a big squeeze on mom and pop vendors that were farther from the distribution centers... He also stated when they moved to Lewisville, they centralized purchasing for the entire country.....it didn't work, people in New Hampshire didn't want the same amount of refried beans that people in Arizona did. In the end, he said it was basic greed and the change at the top in the last couple of years that did them in.

They say every time a Wal-Mart Supercenter opens, at least two neighborhood grocers close their doors. I don't think any other city has as many Supercenters per capita as OKC. The only way a national chain is going to come in and try to compete in a market so dominated by Wal-Mart is if they can sell wine or liquor. As is, even if they were successful the profit margin would be so thin I don't think companies see it as worth the investment.

Is that what "they" say?

I wonder the best way to go about petitioning Homeland to renovate their location on Classen?

That would represent a huge amenity for those in the central core without having to lure an entire new operator/location.

I wonder the best way to go about petitioning Homeland to renovate their location on Classen?

That would represent a huge amenity for those in the central core without having to lure an entire new operator/location.

Well, they say they're employee owned, so maybe ask a cashier?

(sarc)

So, how did we get to be so Walmart heavy? Did Fleming Foods provide a distribution for local grocers that was the only possible way for a local grocer to compete with Walmart? How does Crest do it? Is there a replacement to Fleming Foods? How about the Allied Grocer people out by the airport? Why did Fleming Foods die? Was Walmart complicit in their failure?
I know there's a lot of chicken and egg-type questions here, but I had completely forgotten about Fleming Foods and just thought that our Walmartization was something normal and natural in the evolution of grocers. I'm not so sure, anymore. Any ideas on that?

I'm not familiar with Fleming or anything about them. I do know these two things though.

1) OKC was a test market for Wal-Mart to see how much of the grocery market they could capture. They called it their market saturation strategy. Other markets such as Austin, another market Wal-Mart was going to attempt this in, have fought back after seeing what happened in OKC.

2) The major chains i.e. Albertson's that were here prior to the Wal-Mart onslaught were offering Oklahomans an inferior product compared to what they were offering in other states. That have people little incentive to shop there over Wal-Mart.

Parts of this thread reminds me about the billboard for a subdivision in Edmond that was, until very recently, at the corner of Kelley and 33rd. The "Kelley Pointe" billboard had a picture of two adorable little boys and read "Kelley Pointe is not downtown, but neither is your family!" For some reason, that billboard always rubbed me the wrong way...it was as if it suggested that it is impossible to have a family downtown. And the billboard is located on a section that has been vacant for quite some time, which makes me wonder how successful their slogan is!

I hope the couple figures out what they want. I think it's important to try different homes out, especially before having kids, to figure out what you want as a couple. So, whatever their reasoning, I applaud their decision. Personally, I would love to move back downtown soon. Unfortunately, I have two 50-pound dogs, so renting is pretty much out of the picture. Once I sell my house and make enough profit to afford a decent condo, I'll be living where I have never felt happier--downtown.

The only way a national chain is going to come in and try to compete in a market so dominated by Wal-Mart is if they can sell wine or liquor.


This is the big reason. It's a shame, because the Kroger in Flower Mound where I shopped when I lived in North Texas was awesome. I like Buy for Less here though, it's about the closest to what we had in Texas, minus the alcohol. I can't stand Crest stores.

Over expansion by the other national chains created large amounts of debt to be serviced and really destroyed many of those chains. Even when I worked at Skaggs Albertsons/Skaggs Alpha-Beta in 80-82 the margins on food were very slim, the drug side of the store is where the profit was. Many of those companies were public companies as well with the unrealistic expectations of shareholders in a very competivie market sector. The demands of shareholders encouraged more debt to expand and when economic cycles hit these chains were not in a financial position to weather them. The privately held chains seem to have handled the ups and downs and competition better, look at Crest and HEB in Texas as examples of this working. I wish HEB (and their Central Market concept) would expand in this region, that is one of the things we miss about Austin and my dad really liked the store when he came down to visit. We stocked up on some HEB stuff while we were in Midland. King Soupers (the name of the Kroger stores here in the Denver area) are better than Safeway or WMNM but still not HEB.

There is also more competition than just Wal Mart, Walgreen's and CVS (previously Eckerd) also had strategies to add food for the convenience shopper to eliminate the need to stop at the grocery store.

Crest doesn't hold a candle to HEB, unfortunately.

Safeway I believe still owns Randall's/Tom Thumb.

Kroger, to me, and all their variations, are the top.

Yes, Safeway still owns Tom Thumb/Randalls, my preference in Dallas was Tom Thumb (or their Simon David store at Skillman & Audelia) but that was before they were bought by Randall's and before Safeway. Tom Thumb was better before Randall's. There was a Jewel/Osco (and later Skaggs) down the street and Minyard's was still around.

Crest is still one of the better ones in the OKC area, nowhere close to HEB but better than most there. In Austin we had HEB/Central Market and Randall's, all the Albertson's closed, we rarely went to Whole Foods (downtown was the closest one at that time), Sunflower was the closest to our house there. The closest grocery to our house here in Aurora is Albertson's, we still choose to go to King Soupers. I have probably been to Safeway three times since moving up here in October 2011.

Over expansion by the other national chains created large amounts of debt to be serviced and really destroyed many of those chains. Even when I worked at Skaggs Albertsons/Skaggs Alpha-Beta in 80-82 the margins on food were very slim, the drug side of the store is where the profit was. Many of those companies were public companies as well with the unrealistic expectations of shareholders in a very competivie market sector. The demands of shareholders encouraged more debt to expand and when economic cycles hit these chains were not in a financial position to weather them. The privately held chains seem to have handled the ups and downs and competition better, look at Crest and HEB in Texas as examples of this working. I wish HEB (and their Central Market concept) would expand in this region, that is one of the things we miss about Austin and my dad really liked the store when he came down to visit. We stocked up on some HEB stuff while we were in Midland. King Soupers (the name of the Kroger stores here in the Denver area) are better than Safeway or WMNM but still not HEB.

There is also more competition than just Wal Mart, Walgreen's and CVS (previously Eckerd) also had strategies to add food for the convenience shopper to eliminate the need to stop at the grocery store.

It wouldn't surprise me to see H-E-B expand here if the liquor laws ever changed. I remember reading somewhere they weren't opposed to opening in OKC but it wasn't happening any time soon. I don't see CVS/Walgreens as a huge competition as other cities have just as many of them and they don't really sell more than just the basic staples. Bottom line - it's Wal-Mart's saturation strategy that killed the grocery market here.

When I lived in Little Rock there were Krogers about every square mile. I will say they are better than most grocery stores here, but they aren't near as impressive as H-E-B or Harris Teeter.

I know the food capacity was doubled at the NW 23rd & May Walgreen's store after the floor slab was already in place and shell construction was underway. It was a change order that Walgreen's wanted because of area demographics, that was the only store that I did which had that change. At the Walgreen's architect meeting in Chicago they stated they were looking to do more food as a competitor between a convenience store and a grocery store. Some stores have a significantly larger food section, most of the downtown stores have a larger food section than the suburban stores.

HEB has a Mexico division (in a joint venture) that has been their focus of growth in recent years. I used to work with an electrical engineer in Austin who was doing a lot of HEB Mexico work, he worked for HEB facilities for a lot of years before going into private practice. I don't think beer/wine in OK is a make or break proposition for them but might be a bit of an enticement. I do remember Little Rock being blanketed with Kroger's there was one not far from my friends apartment.

I still think debt and poor management did the stores in more than Wal Mart, it was perfect timing for WM to enter the grocery market here during that.

It's easy to point the finger at Wal-Mart, but you're right, there are other issues.

See Albertson's in Houston in the early 2000's. My mom has worked in the grocery business for 30+ years on the broker side, and my uncle is part of the ownership group of another successful independent chain in the Houston area. Albertson's built a huge distribution center, and then seemingly used the method of "pin the tail on the donkey" to determine new store locales. They built huge flagship stores in some questionable areas in Houston, where low overhead independents already had a good hold of the market. People in those areas didn't need what Albertson's was bringing in, and not long after that they closed the doors of their DC and all Houston area stores. I helped do set ups in many of those new stores, and where they were located just didn't make sense.

There is also more competition than just Wal Mart, Walgreen's and CVS (previously Eckerd) also had strategies to add food for the convenience shopper to eliminate the need to stop at the grocery store.

I certainly have no data on this, but I think that Dollar General and Family Dollar also are playing a part in keeping the grocery market from getting out from under Walmart's thumb here.

Parts of this thread reminds me about the billboard for a subdivision in Edmond that was, until very recently, at the corner of Kelley and 33rd. The "Kelley Pointe" billboard had a picture of two adorable little boys and read "Kelley Pointe is not downtown, but neither is your family!" For some reason, that billboard always rubbed me the wrong way...it was as if it suggested that it is impossible to have a family downtown. And the billboard is located on a section that has been vacant for quite some time, which makes me wonder how successful their slogan is!



I'm so glad someone else saw that nasty billboard and had the same reaction to it! I drove by it a few times and was just appalled the first time I read it. The fact that a suburban developer would have to openly insult downtown living? Disgusting. Just shows their insecurity - and as you correctly pointed out - it was on a vacant lot to boot!

To each their own - some people love buying cookie cutter houses in Edmond and talking about what a great deal they got. I (and I'm sure many others on this board) have other priorities. If I ever move to a house out of the downtown core, it'll be somewhere around 20th and Classen. What a great neighborhood of reasonably sized, reasonably priced, unique houses with some character and history behind them.

I'm so glad someone else saw that nasty billboard and had the same reaction to it! I drove by it a few times and was just appalled the first time I read it. The fact that a suburban developer would have to openly insult downtown living? Disgusting. Just shows their insecurity - and as you correctly pointed out - it was on a vacant lot to boot!


Haha! Haven't been in that area in a while but that is pretty funny. Working downtown=abandoning your children! LOL, quite the leap. I guess you gotta do what you gotta do to lease up your drab, bland office buildings in the middle of a field.

Can't really see them getting anything besides what's already in Edmond. A dentist, lawyer, accountant, realtor, and maybe the occasional oil and gas firm, i.e. things that are already serving the local population would be the only thing interested in something in that area.