I have heard people refer to the Hideaway on Broadway and 8th as downtown and the whole 9th Street District as downtown. I consider downtown to be where the Crosstown used to be on the south, EK Gaylord on the east, Classen on the west and 6th Street on the north. Everything else, I refer to as Midtown, Bricktown, Deep Deuce or just general cross streets. What does everyone else consider to be downtown?

The area you describe is the Central Business District.

The Downtown OKC Inc. website lists the following as Downtown Districts (in addition to the CBD): Deep Deuce, Arts District, Automobile Alley, Bricktown, Film Row and Park Plaza.

A song by Petula Clark.

^^^ (excellent)
Oh . . . i dunno . . . how about between Broadway/EK Gaylord on the east to Western on the west and from 10th St. on the north to the former crosstown on the south (sheridan, reno, whatever).

re: Petula Clark quip . . . and any place contained within those geographical boundaries where one might stop into an intimate, smoky club and encounter Bobby Darin singin' . . . "when the snark bites . . with his teeth dear . . . etc." =)

A song by Petula Clark.

Dang!!! You beat me to it. :mad:

Anyway... I like to consider downtown a place where the "lights are much brighter". A place where you can "forget all your troubles, forget all your cares..."

:wink:

I tend to refer to anything within the following borders as 'downtown' - works for me and nobody has ever questioned it.

North: NW 12

South: The river

East: Centennial Exp

West: Western

All the districts are fine when someone wants that sort of detail, but I find most people have no idea beyond downtown, Midtown and Bricktown.

I tend to agree with you Brian on your boundaries. My office is in Midtown and I usually refer to it as such, but all of my employees (most of whom live in the burbs) refer to it as downtown.

I consider downtown as anything that is in the CBD, but honestly from where I live in NW OKC, anything down there in a 2 mile radius from the center of downtown is downtown...lol.

Dang!!! You beat me to it. :mad:

Anyway... I like to consider downtown a place where the "lights are much brighter". A place where you can "forget all your troubles, forget all your cares..."

:wink:

Downtown can be a feeling too.;)

I love this topic. Everyone in my office lives in Edmond or Piedmont, and they refer to my house as being 'downtown.'

I live at 23rd and May.

My mental boundaries are 10th, Reno, Gaylord, and Walker, I'd say.

And I was actually thinking about this the other day--I consider 10th to be the southern boundary of 'midtown,' in contrast to Kansas City, where I consider 39th to be midtown. Then I wondered if I could somewhat accurately compare the sizes of cities relative to where midtown begins.

And I was actually thinking about this the other day--I consider 10th to be the southern boundary of 'midtown,' in contrast to Kansas City, where I consider 39th to be midtown. Then I wondered if I could somewhat accurately compare the sizes of cities relative to where midtown begins.

I'd love to overlay a KC on an OKC and see how they compare to one another.

I love this topic. Everyone in my office lives in Edmond or Piedmont, and they refer to my house as being 'downtown.'

I live at 23rd and May.

My mental boundaries are 10th, Reno, Gaylord, and Walker, I'd say.

And I was actually thinking about this the other day--I consider 10th to be the southern boundary of 'midtown,' in contrast to Kansas City, where I consider 39th to be midtown. Then I wondered if I could somewhat accurately compare the sizes of cities relative to where midtown begins.

Ditto, except Classen on the west side.

i would use the Urban Neighbors boundaries ...

river on the south 13th north 235 east and Classsen on the west

I think of OKC downtown as being a very compact area, basically a 1 or 2 mile radius...presumably the CBD???

I think of OKC downtown as being a very compact area, basically a 1 or 2 mile radius...presumably the CBD???
I think you're in the small minority when it comes to how most people in the metro think of it.

I think you're in the small minority when it comes to how most people in the metro think of it.

That's what I said too...basically.

I think of OKC downtown as being a very compact area, basically a 1 or 2 mile radius...presumably the CBD???

1 or 2 mile radius? The CBD is like 4 blocks east to west and 8 blocks north to south

Definitely what Boulder said.

235/13th/Classen and then either Boulevard or the River.

You know you're in downtown if you see a streetcar gliding smoothly past...

Oh wait, can't use that definition yet. :(

You know you're in downtown if you see a streetcar gliding smoothly past...

Oh wait, can't use that definition yet. :(

Awwwwwwwwwww shucks :mad:

Hey, that could be a Foxworthy-esque routine.

"You know you're in downtown if...."

Obviously it's

"Where all the lights are much brighter"
"Waiting for you tonight"
"Where the neon signs are pretty"
"Where you can forget all your troubles and forget all your cares"
"Where everything's waiting for you"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abOzcjxNJ30

i would use the Urban Neighbors boundaries ...

river on the south 13th north 235 east and Classsen on the west

Yeah, this.

I guess I have a broader sense of downtown, but it's definitely more than just the CBD which honestly doesn't even register that much with me.

1 or 2 mile radius? The CBD is like 4 blocks east to west and 8 blocks north to south

I didn't look at a map to check out how big the CBD is and didn't mean to imply that downtown was only the CBD, but that it included it (sorry if that was unclear)...when talking about a very compact area I was thinking along the lines of a 1 to 2 mile radius (in agreement with OKCisOK4me) in relationship to the 620+ square miles (mol) that comprise OKC...as spread out our city limits are, that doesn't extend to what most would consider to be Downtown...but there are going to be different opinions on that as evidenced by the posts in this thread.

The compactness of our downtown was brought up in the MAPS 3 Streetcar "downtown circulator" discussions. Since it IS so small, do we even need such a thing?

the CBD is compact right now but downtown OKC is not compact as it includes numerous districts that surround the CBD. Therefore, it is essential for there to be some sort of reliable (and predictable) transit to connect the districts; hence the streetcar component of MAPS III to which an overwhelming supermajority of the voters of OKC approved.

I don't get why there is a minority trying to back out of it when all of the above is true. Anyways, I consider the CBD to be more than just where the skyscrapers are TODAY:

CBD: N 4th/5th - RR tracks - Crosstown alignment - Hudson/Walker/Dewey depending on the section
Entire Downtown: N 13 - I-235/Lincoln - River - Classen

The compactness of our downtown was brought up in the MAPS 3 Streetcar "downtown circulator" discussions. Since it IS so small, do we even need such a thing?

Would you walk from Walnut and Sheridan to 13th and Dewey? If you were going to the Peake for an event, would you park at the garage (to be built) on 10th between Broadway and Robinson and walk there? In the rain? In August when it's 110 degrees? In the winter? Most people in OKC would not walk those distances, especially in weather like I've described. If the streetcar is a downtown "circulator", then the eastern boundary is walking distance to the east of Walnut, the west of Dewey, the south of the boulevard and the north of 13th.

I'm not sure Larry has the frame of reference to answer those questions. He's been pretty open in the past regarding the fact that he doesn't interact with downtown that often, either for business or pleasure. I think his question was sincere.

Larry, I'm not a regular promoter on here of the streetcar or even someone who spends significant time reading the streetcar thread or updating myself much on the details of the project. But to answer your question - which stated another way asks whether it is convenient or likely for people to circulate throughout downtown on foot - the answer is that it is not. Downtown is compact as far as downtowns in large-ish cities go, but it is pretty unlikely that people will regularly walk, for instance, from Midtown to Bricktown, or from 9th Street to the CBD, etc. Especially in the conditions described above, which are regular in OKC.

The more appropriate question might be whether such pedestrian circulation is needed for a healthy downtown, and whether a healthy and thriving downtown benefits the city and taxpayers at large. I think the answer to both questions is yes. The next question is whether government (and taxpayer) intervention is a reasonable approach to achieve this. Again, I (and a majority of voters) believe that it is. Finally, the question is whether the streetcar is the best way to accomplish the aforementioned pedestrian circulation, and again, the voters have spoken.

Whether you or I agree with that at this point is immaterial. It was voted for, and it should be built to the highest level that the budget will allow. I believe this of every MAPS project. The will of the people should be the end of the debate on WHETHER something should happen. Now is the time to discuss HOW it happens.

Now, back on thread topic: I agree with the 13th/235/river/Classen definition of downtown's boundaries, and also agree that if you talk to the OKC general populace you'll get wildly-ranging definitions, including lumping everything south of 23rd or even 36th into it. You'll probably also find quite a few who will call everything in the 13th/235/river/Classen boundaries "Bricktown."

the CBD is compact right now but downtown OKC is not compact as it includes numerous districts that surround the CBD. Therefore, it is essential for there to be some sort of reliable (and predictable) transit to connect the districts; hence the streetcar component of MAPS III to which an overwhelming supermajority of the voters of OKC approved.
What??? While it is true the in the City's unscientific internet MAPS 3 Survey, Mass Transit received the "super majority" of suggestions, MAPS 3 barely passed at the ballot box. In school board elections where a super majority is required for passage, the rate is 60% approval. While some incarnations of MAPS have received super-majority, MAPS 1 & 3 didn't even come close.

Betts & Urbanized: Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I was NOT saying that the Streetcar should be scrapped. Simply pointing out that there were those on the Council (think it was Pete White) that noticed the compactness and questioned if there was even a need for a downtown circulator. I also agree that the time to debate that was BEFORE it was presented to voters, not after. Others had posted in one of the threads at the time, they could walk from one end of downtown to the other in 20 minutes or less? As Betts has correctly pointed out at another time, other cities (daughter in Chicago?) with weather just as extreme as ours and with downtowns less compact think nothing of walking the distances that Okies balk at. Right or wrong, good or bad, totally different mindset here than some other places.

I also agree that after the voters have spoken, any attempt to divert from what voters were told (even if it didn't appear on the Ballot or Ordinance) should be met with strong resistance. Yes, even for the projects that didn't have majority support like the Convention Center. We weren't given the option of which items we wanted. It was all-or-nothing. My employer is just off Penn between Reno and 10th. We don't consider ourselves to be "Downtown" (been at the same location since the 60s or 70s), but "near Downtown". But that's just my perspective and answering the thread question. Some agree and some don't.

maps 3 well more than "barely passed" (and that was with a very vocal opposition)

the chamber polling showed that transit would carry the maps 3 ballot ...

maps 3 well more than "barely passed" (and that was with a very vocal opposition)

the chamber polling showed that transit would carry the maps 3 ballot ...

Correct. However, Larry believes a 6-8 point margin at the polls is a very close vote, so you probably won't convince him. In today's divided electorate, getting anything more than a four or five-point win is a decisive win, IMO. It's just a matter of perspective. Larry's is clearly different.

FACT: MAPS 3 passed by almost exactly the same percentages as MAPS...even when you look at the ward-by-ward breakdowns of the 2 elections, the results were very similar. it wasn't just me, the media reported it as "barely passing" back then too...think even Mayor Norrick at the time said something to that effect...reportedly, the Chamber polling showed that the Convention Center very nearly pulled the entire thing down too.

FACT: MAPS 3 passed by almost exactly the same percentages as MAPS...even when you look at the ward-by-ward breakdowns of the 2 elections, the results were very similar. it wasn't just me, the media reported it as "barely passing" back then too...think even Mayor Norrick at the time said something to that effect...reportedly, the Chamber polling showed that the Convention Center very nearly pulled the entire thing down too.

Maps passed by 54%. Norrick agreed it was a "squeaker".

Chapter 12

Voices of Oklahoma: RON NORICK (http://www.voicesofoklahoma.com/ron_norick.html)

A good site.

I posted some time back about WHY the MAPS vote was actually very close. On a national scale an 8 point win would be a huge win. A local race not so much. Here's my explanation from another post. This seems to come up a lot, so for those who don't think it was close, please read what I wrote back in April.

You can't talk about margins being small or large unless you know the total numbers. These days with millions of votes, or even hundreds of thousands, an 8 point margin is huge. With tens of thousands or thousands, it's a small margin. For example, if you had 1,000,000 voters, a 540,000 to 460,000 is fairly significant, with 10,000,000 voters, a 5.4 million to 4.6 million is considered a large victory. Now the other extreme you have 100 voters and it's 54 voters to 46 voters, that's very darn close, 50 voters and it's 27 votes to 23, extremely close even with the 8% margin. With city council and runoff elections you're dealing with numbers to where the total vote at an 8% margin is actually a close election.

If you're still skeptical about the linguistics and math of "good" "bad" "close" etc., turn the margin into interest on a CD. Is 8% interest great? At $100 you make $8, not so great. At $100,000.000 it's $8,000,000, pretty darn great. It's all methodical and definitive, but still relative depending on the total investment dollars. Or, with total number of voters.

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Fixed!

One thing is for sure, when people talk about all the investment "downtown" they're not talking about in neighborhoods as far north as 36th street or as far west as Linwood. Most people equate "downtown" with the CBD and bordering districts. I think BBates had a pretty good boundary map.

Fixed!

One thing is for sure, when people talk about all the investment "downtown" they're not talking about in neighborhoods as far north as 36th street or as far west as Linwood. Most people equate "downtown" with the CBD and bordering districts. I think BBates had a pretty good boundary map.

You'd be surprised how many people, especially from outlying rural/exurban areas, stretch out the borders of downtown to include everything as far west as 44 and as far north as 36th.

In New Orleans, "downtown" includes the CBD, plus all the neighborhoods downriver along the Miss River including Treme, Bywater, Lower 9th Ward, etc. So its not out the question for DT to go out that far.

With that in mind, I tend to agree with the established boundaries here, with a possible addition of Heritage Hills and Mesta Park.

I call it Bricktown, the Myriad, and the surrounding mile or two. I include Deep Deuce in this-- I don't include Paseo.