That's not what I've read or been told by my friend at Tesla. They've still got a way to go. Initially, the X (SUV) was going to be that mass-market but instead they opted to work out an SUV model and then start bringing price points down.

I keep hearing them say they've not yet developed their 'economy' version. My suspicion is they are still trying to push the battery life envelope further before they build it. The S isn't affordable for most people. When Elon says he wants 50% of the world to be driving Teslas in the next couple of decades, he doesn't think he is going to accomplish that with S price points. They have high hopes to bring the cost down a lot more I believe.

that is great ... i hope they continue to put out a great product ...

Elon will first try to change laws in states where he can sell the greatest number of cars: NY, NJ, CT, CA, TX. Don't expect him spending much time/money lobbying the Oklahoma legislature because Oklahomans won't be buying a lot of Teslas (no offense, mkjeeves!).

I empathize with the plight of distributors of all kinds who stand between the manufacturer and the customer because their days are numbered.

That may or may not be true in the future but...Oklahoma is second behind California for quantity of Roadsters purchased within a state, due in part to our legislature.

That may or may not be true in the future but...Oklahoma is second behind California for quantity of Roadsters purchased within a state, due in part to our legislature.

SERIOUSLY!? I expected that there would be a handful of deliveries in Oklahoma, but I've already seen a handful of Teslas around town. Do you have any numbers showing state-by-state deliveries?

It's your argument. Maybe you can make it with something other than (end of the times) imagination?

I'm not making an argument - I am asking a question. Where is the electricity going to come from to power the ambitious goals of Tesla? I am willing to concede that he literally didn't mean 1/2 the world since 1/2 the world doesn't even have a reliable electric grid.

Also, I just got time to read your whole article - did you read it? The Tesla rapid charge station uses the same amount of electricity as 40 homes. 4 people charging their cars in a Sears parking lot would use more electricity than the entire Sears store.


Let’s look at the actual charging capacities to get a sense of the potential magnitude: In the extreme, Tesla is offering a super high voltage charging opportunity, providing a range of 150 miles to its Model S 85 kilowatt-hour (kWh) battery in about 30 minutes. The charge capability is 480 volt, with a maximum 90 kilowatt (kW) draw. That level of voltage and capacity is quite significant. To put it in perspective, for planning purposes the California Energy Commission assumes the average residential household to have a peak ranging between 1.8 and 2.4 kW. So the supercharge station with 90 KW essentially packs the punch of about 40 households worth of peak demand. Looked at another way, a Sears/Kmart store might have 300 kW of peak demand, just over 3x what a single car battery charge would draw for a short period.

SERIOUSLY!? I expected that there would be a handful of deliveries in Oklahoma, but I've already seen a handful of Teslas around town. Do you have any numbers showing state-by-state deliveries?

I ask about how many are in Oklahoma every time I talk to a Tesla employee. That info about the Roadsters came from the Tesla technician a couple of weeks ago who services Oklahoma. He said he did not know total numbers of Roadsters or Model S cars that have been delivered here but we are number 2 for quantity of Roadsters.

I'm not making an argument - I am asking a question.

Upthread...


The biggest challenge to Tesla (or any electric car) in the long-term is the availability of electricity at affordable prices. Many metro areas already suffer from rolling brown-outs. Could you imagine the energy demand in LA if just 10% of the cars needed to be recharged?

Argument, taking a position, making claims. etc.

Presumably the electric grid will adjust. If we use more electricity, more plants will be built. Right now early adopters of the electric car are few enough that our grid doesn't even notice it. It's a drop in the swimming pool. We clearly aren't equipped for everyone to use an electric car tomorrow. The system can't handle it. But in 20 years we might be okay.

One of the key questions is what percentage of drivers will be using one of these stations at any given time. If 1% of drivers have their cars plugged in a quick-charge outlet, then you need to increase electricity production by X%. If 2% of drivers are plugging in at the same time, you need a 2X% increase in electricity. I can't give you any kind of estimate on those numbers, clearly, because we don't know what driving trends are going to be like in an all-electric world. Presumably the demand for quick-charge stations will be less than that of gas stations, because a large number of people will plug their car into their house each night. So the quick-charge stations will be for people on long trips and dumbasses who forgot to plug in the night before.

At the same time, we are also seeing a big drop in the price of solar panels. Some power companies are beginning to worry about the decreased demand due to cheaper solar installation. As energy-neutral homes become more available and grow in number, the cost of maintaining the electric grid will be supported disproportionately by the homes that don't have solar panels. This drives up the cost of electricity and makes solar power even more appealing. For example, you provide power to 100 homes. The cost of power generation is split amongst those 100 homes. If 10 of them adopt solar power to the point where they only use the grid as a backup, then the cost of power is now split amongst the remaining 90, and increases prices. This leads to solar being more competitive for the other 90, and the problem increases). This is an issue that worries companies like OG&E because it's a radical change to their business model.

Electric cars could help stablize the traditional power company business model because it means higher demand at night (from people plugging in at home) and quick-charging stations with very high use during the day.

We don't know how this is going to affect urban sprawl. That will be a complex issue that takes into account the range of electric cars (if a $20K car can get 300 miles on a 20 minute charge I think range won't be an issue), charging times, how much utilities will charge for a more robust system out in the boonies, etc. I do think that inexpensive electric cars could negate many of the factors in the New Urbanist equation. But all this stuff still has to shake out, and we don't know how that's going to go yet.

That may or may not be true in the future but...Oklahoma is second behind California for quantity of Roadsters purchased within a state, due in part to our legislature.

yep because a couple of years ago .. you could buy a 110 thousand dollar Tesla roadster .. then come tax day .. the state would give you 55 thousand dollars back and the feds would give you 7500 back ..

are there currently any state incentives or did they all expire? -M

I do think that inexpensive electric cars could negate many of the factors in the New Urbanist equation. But all this stuff still has to shake out, and we don't know how that's going to go yet.

I agree. That think that is why JTF is trying the challenge the idea of the EV...it doesn't fit the New Urbanism narrative at first glance. But NU is more than just an attempt to reduce the use of fossil fuels, so I'm not sure how significant the impact will be. It not like the folks who care about sustainable development are suddenly going to want to move to the burbs because they don't have to pay for gas anymore.

are there currently any state incentives or did they all expire? -M

For this past year, there was a 4,000.00 energy credit. Not sure if it will be there next year.

For this past year, there was a 4,000.00 energy credit. Not sure if it will be there next year.
interesting... when i was pricing things a few weeks ago, i was only figuring in the $7500 federal credit. ugh. -M

yep because a couple of years ago .. you could buy a 110 thousand dollar Tesla roadster .. then come tax day .. the state would give you 55 thousand dollars back and the feds would give you 7500 back ..

That was the primary reason for so many Roadsters in Oklahoma but that's not entirely accurate. If you had $7500 of federal tax liability you could take the federal deduction. Same for state but 55K on a $110K car only if you made a billizillion dollars, had 55K in state tax liability beforehand and had paid in 55K would they send you a check. They did allow you three years to use that up. We used some but not all of it. Some of it expired. We did have to bug the heck out of the OK Tax Commission to get that paid back. They fought the Alternative Fuel Vehicle Tax Credit tooth and nail.

interesting... when i was pricing things a few weeks ago, i was only figuring in the $7500 federal credit. ugh. -M

i think the energy credit was only for installing a home charger ..

That was the primary reason for so many Roadsters in Oklahoma but that's not entirely accurate. If you had $7500 of federal deductions you could take the federal deduction. Same for state but 55K on a $120K car only if you made a billizillion dollars, had 55K in state tax liability beforehand and had paid in 55K would they send you a check. They did allow you three years to use that up. We used some but not all of it. Some of it expired. We did have to bug the heck out of the OK Tax Commission to get that paid back. They fought the Alternative Fuel Vehicle Tax Credit tooth and nail.

so it was a non refundable credit?

that makes a lot more sense ... thanks

I agree. That think that is why JTF is trying the challenge the idea of the EV...it doesn't fit the New Urbanism narrative at first glance. But NU is more than just an attempt to reduce the use of fossil fuels, so I'm not sure how significant the impact will be. It not like the folks who care about sustainable development are suddenly going to want to move to the burbs because they don't have to pay for gas anymore.

Well not really because there isn't going to be an electric economy. We simply can't produce that much electricity at a reasonable cost. Much like ethanol production drove corn prices through the roof, we will do the same to electric prices. Many urban areas already have rolling brownouts every summer so there isn't much unused capacity in the system. As for recharging at night, that was one of the concerns in the article mkjeeves provided. The neighborhood transformers were designed to cool at night but if a few people start recharging their cars those transformers can't cool. Another issue was that most PEV owners plug their cars in as soon as they get home, which also happened to be the time they were using all other electric devices.

Electric cars are great for people who can afford them but a $55,000 tax credit? That is pure crazy. It would have been cheaper to give you free gasoline for life. mkjeeves - did you pocket a $55,000 tax credit?

Well not really because there isn't going to be an electric economy. We simply can't produce that much electricity at a reasonable cost. Much like ethanol production drove corn prices through the roof, we will do the same to electric prices. Many urban areas already have rolling brownouts every summer so there isn't much unused capacity in the system. As for recharging at night, that was one of the concerns in the article mkjeeves provided. The neighborhood transformers were designed to cool at night but if a few people start recharging their cars those transformers can't cool. Another issue was that most PEV owners plug their cars in as soon as they get home, which also happened to be the time they were using all other electric devices.

Electric cars are great for people who can afford them but a $55,000 tax credit? That is pure crazy. It would have been cheaper to give you free gasoline for life. mkjeeves - did you pocket a $55,000 tax credit?

The article I cited says there's not a significant problem in the near future. (I noticed you haven't cited anything remotely saying otherwise.) We'll adjust. Maybe we'll stop building so much oil infrastructure and fighting oil wars in the longer term. EV technology will improve as will renewables. The end is not near. Sorry about your doomsday fiction!

This is one of those things that gives me hope for the future.

Beat me to posting that Sid! I am more impressed with Tesla with every development. Maybe I should become the OKC Supercharger Station manager!!

Beat me to posting that Sid! I am more impressed with Tesla with every development. Maybe I should become the OKC Supercharger Station manager!!

Ha. Ditto!

It's almost too good to be true. You've got a billionaire investor who is powering through every barrier to electric cars with the brute power of cash. I'm not confident they can profitably make supercharging stations free forever. I just don't understand how that would work. It is probably easy right now, to spur development. But in the future?

The battery swap is a pretty good idea but it has some issues. However, we are a long way off from those issues so no worries.

You guys got to get up earlier! ;)

I was just walking into a 7am business meeting in Edmond at the time you posted that. I only get up before 5:30AM for plane fights and fun.

On topic - I knew they were working on battery swaps. I'm the most impressed they have at least a demo working on the Model S.

Where might I be able to see one of these beautiful machines? Maybe even go for a ride? My needs are met and I don’t want too many things, but I really want one of these! :D

Once you get rid of the combustion engine the number of things that can go wrong with a car goes way down. I know this is will be a stupid question and a google search would probably give me an answer but what kind of transmissions do these cars have?

Once you get rid of the combustion engine the number of things that can go wrong with a car goes way down. I know this is will be a stupid question and a google search would probably give me an answer but what kind of transmissions do these cars have?

The Roadster has a single speed gear box made by BorgWarner, 0 to 125 and no shifting. Took much development, several designs and companies to get there. It was also one of the delays in the early development. I assume they are using the same or similar in the Model S, future models and in the drivetrains they are selling to Daimler and Toyota.

Whether there is a mass market acceptance or not of electric cars there are going to have to be upgrades in the grid and electrical generation as the population grows and electricity demand is on a constant growth path. At this point the main reason for brownouts is the grid and not just generating capacity.

White House Petition to allow Tesla to sell directly to consumers in all 50 states. We need 95,000 more signatures by July 5th! Support Tesla and consumer choice:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/allow-tesla-motors-sell-directly-consumers-all-50-states/bFN7NHQR

White House Petition to allow Tesla to sell directly to consumers in all 50 states. We need 95,000 more signatures by July 5th! Support Tesla and consumer choice:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/allow-tesla-motors-sell-directly-consumers-all-50-states/bFN7NHQR

I would sign it but i disagree with the method for getting done what i want done. I feel that this would be the Federal Government stepping directly into a state issue. and i would strongly oppose a Federal Government mandate for this, Even though i do wish that each stat would allow for this

furthermore, i don't think it's appropriate to make special rules just for tesla... if forcing the dealership model is wrong, then it's wrong for everyone. -M

I would sign it but i disagree with the method for getting done what i want done. I feel that this would be the Federal Government stepping directly into a state issue. and i would strongly oppose a Federal Government mandate for this, Even though i do wish that each stat would allow for this

I understand that - I was surprised to see it. I really do not think Tesla needs the help. Their products are great and intriguing even to "non-car" enthusiasts.

I would sign it but i disagree with the method for getting done what i want done. I feel that this would be the Federal Government stepping directly into a state issue. and i would strongly oppose a Federal Government mandate for this, Even though i do wish that each stat would allow for this

I wonder if an Interstate Commerce challenge is possible? Will Amazon.com be challenged by book stores, consumer electronic stores, etc? Don't know, but this will be interesting to see how it is resolved.

A White House petition isn't going to do anything. From what I understand is that if you hit 100,000 signatures, all the Obama administration has promised to do is to take a look at it. Remember a while back they had a petition to build a Death Star. All the WH did was say "no, we can't afford it".

A White House petition isn't going to do anything. From what I understand is that if you hit 100,000 signatures, all the Obama administration has promised to do is to take a look at it. Remember a while back they had a petition to build a Death Star. All the WH did was say "no, we can't afford it".

That one was pretty funny. I wonder who really started this one. I cut and pasted the exact language I found posted.

I don't expect it to go anywhere if they do get the signatures, other than education and awareness of the issue. Pretty inexpensive way to chip at that.

It wouldn't be converted to legislation just for Tesla and have no doubt that's not the real intent.

I don't believe it's a reason for the feds to step in now, but on the one hand we have the feds promoting electric car technology (having supported Tesla in particular) in part, as a matter of national security, securing our energy future. While at the state level, we have archaic special interest laws fighting against that. There may be a time when the feds will take a position on interstate commerce issues or otherwise, because of the more important ramifications.

Tesla's loan was made possible by The Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Independence_and_Security_Act_of_2007

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Technology_Vehicles_Manufacturing_Loan_Pr ogram

i don't want to be that guy, but how many of you that think this law is wrong and should be changed are actually going to talk to a legislator about this? i'm not calling anyone out for posting their dissatisfaction... but don't expect things to change if the extent of your actions is limited to a message board. -M

You have such a minimalist idea of the impact of this board. Surely these dealers or Tesla will see the error of their ways based upon the content of this thread. Surely Ed Shadid will reconsider his mayoral bid and the tribes and the OWRB will start singing Kumbaya because of the 50 page Hefner thread.

Telsa wins one ...

Tesla wins in North Carolina, paves the way for direct-to-consumer sales (http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/27/tesla-victory-north-carolina/)

Elon Musk > Preston Tucker

You have such a minimalist idea of the impact of this board. Surely these dealers or Tesla will see the error of their ways based upon the content of this thread. Surely Ed Shadid will reconsider his mayoral bid and the tribes and the OWRB will start singing Kumbaya because of the 50 page Hefner thread.

i wouldn't make light of the hefner thread... it may be the only thing keeping okc from building that evil pipeline from sardis lake which will most certainly anger the great spirit and wake him from his thousand year slumber. evidently, water rights is his thing. -M

Hold on a second. I thought is was currently illegal for Tesla to sell cars in NC directly to consumers. Was the NCAD's just trying to make it illegal?

Looking at the article linked to above that guy Joshua Turner makes a good point in the comments section. Dealerships provide the point where price competition is established. Get rid of it and you have to find another place for it. So where is the new price competition established if everyone can only buy a Tesla from Tesla?

Earlier this month Elon Musk said he wants to get profit margins on his cars above 50% (which is more than Porsche). This seems like a good way to go about that.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-05/musk-says-tesla-s-gross-margin-can-approach-porsche-over-time-.html

By comparison, Ford made a 4.5% margin per car in the first quarter of 2013.

http://ycharts.com/companies/F/profit_margin

Hold on a second. I thought is was currently illegal for Tesla to sell cars in NC directly to consumers. Was the NCAD's just trying to make it illegal?

Looking at the article linked to above that guy Joshua Turner makes a good point in the comments section. Dealerships provide the point where price competition is established. Get rid of it and you have to find another place for it. So where is the new price competition established if everyone can only buy a Tesla from Tesla?

Earlier this month Elon Musk said he wants to get profit margins on his cars above 50% (which is more than Porsche). This seems like a good way to go about that.

Musk Says Tesla Gross Margin to Approach Porsche?s - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-05/musk-says-tesla-s-gross-margin-can-approach-porsche-over-time-.html)

By comparison, Ford made a 4.5% margin per car in the first quarter of 2013.

Ford Motor Profit Margin Quarterly (F) (http://ycharts.com/companies/F/profit_margin)

Even without any local dealers there is still competition between the different automakers. Apparently Tesla is winning at profit per car metric but that is comparing apples to oranges, Tesla serves a niche market with practically no other comparable electric vehicles. Ford has several compedetors on every product, and is selling volumes of three times more cars sold per day than Tesla sold all of the last year. If they want to have Porsche margins then they will not have Ford sales volume.

Tesla has a great business plan to get started, and to successfully develop electric cars. This does not mean that they have a great business plan to compete against Ford and GM, or whatever the future electric versions of Ford and GM will be. Right now they've found a way to make money by selling an apparently high quality product to a very small market. This should develop the technology and make it more accessible for all.

I don't think they're going to get the same sort of return on, say, a Kia Rio-style car as they are on something that competes with a Mercedes. Hey, if they do, good for them. But I wouldn't count on it. The important thing to me is not Tesla Motors itself, it's the idea of pushing technology forward. If they can make the electric car affordable and convenient, then it doesn't really matter what happens to them. Kids playing X-Box today don't lament the loss of Atari.

Even without any local dealers there is still competition between the different automakers. ... Tesla serves a niche market with practically no other comparable electric vehicles.

There in lies the problem. No competition in their market on price or product. When competition on price is attempted Tesla opposes it. This is a tough one to decide which side to be on.

Hold on a second. I thought is was currently illegal for Tesla to sell cars in NC directly to consumers. Was the NCAD's just trying to make it illegal?

Looking at the article linked to above that guy Joshua Turner makes a good point in the comments section. Dealerships provide the point where price competition is established. Get rid of it and you have to find another place for it. So where is the new price competition established if everyone can only buy a Tesla from Tesla?

Earlier this month Elon Musk said he wants to get profit margins on his cars above 50% (which is more than Porsche). This seems like a good way to go about that.

Musk Says Tesla Gross Margin to Approach Porsche?s - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-05/musk-says-tesla-s-gross-margin-can-approach-porsche-over-time-.html)

By comparison, Ford made a 4.5% margin per car in the first quarter of 2013.

Ford Motor Profit Margin Quarterly (F) (http://ycharts.com/companies/F/profit_margin)

You are comparing gross with net.

Part of Tesla's plan is to control the entire Tesla customer experience. That's hard to do when you have a bunch of different dealers, service and parts centers with different marketing, sales and service styles. I don't think it's any one's business to tell them they can't do that.

Hand and hand with that, they want the profit off of servicing the cars they make. That goes mostly to the dealers now and is a higher margin than manufacturing. That should reflect in their bottom line with numbers higher than other manufacturers in the long run who have given that up.

Smart business on both counts IMO.

Green vehicles: Being green doesn't pay in Virginia. Under part of a state transportation funding bill passed this spring, owners of hybrid and electric vehicles will have to pay a new $64 annual fee on top of car registration fees. Supporters of the tax argued that drivers of these green cars use the roads, but escape paying the gas taxes that help fund road repairs.

The problem is the gasoline tax and $64 annual fee greatly underfund the cost of highway construction and maintenance.

Part of Tesla's plan is to control the entire Tesla customer experience. That's hard to do when you have a bunch of different dealers, service and parts centers with different marketing, sales and service styles. I don't think it's any one's business to tell them they can't do that.

Hand and hand with that, they want the profit off of servicing the cars they make. That goes mostly to the dealers now and is a higher margin than manufacturing. That should reflect in their bottom line with numbers higher than other manufacturers in the long run who have given that up.

Smart business on both counts IMO.

Yea, I can see that side of it. If they provide a quality service at a level people are willing to pay and they can make a positive return then where is the problem.

Electrics and hybrids typically cost more than their counterparts. Tag, title and tax is based on car value. So there's that too, FWIW, until it changes.

FWIW, the state and federal gasoline taxes in Virginia are .386 per gallon. So if your car averaged 24mpg and you drove 12,000 a year the gas taxes paid would be $193.

A Tesla service tech told me OKC is getting a service center soon. Searching for more info I did find that on the Tesla site too. He might have indicated it would be in the next few months but I don't remember for sure exactly what he said about when.

Oklahoma City | Tesla Motors (http://www.teslamotors.com/service/oklahomacity)

A Tesla service tech told me OKC is getting a service center soon. Searching for more info I did find that on the Tesla site too. He might have indicated it would be in the next few months but I don't remember for sure exactly what he said about when.

Oklahoma City | Tesla Motors (http://www.teslamotors.com/service/oklahomacity)

Looks like they have us listed on the website too. It is kind of odd, it looks like they will have more service centers than showrooms.

Every computer is a sales and showroom. I haven't looked at their numbers lately but the same guy said they wanted to sell 20,000 cars this year. They have sold 15,000 and it's the first of August. One would think they would have to have showrooms but do they really?

Tesla S all-electric sports car delivers high tech, high speed for a high price | News OK (http://newsok.com/tesla-s-all-electric-sports-car-delivers-high-tech-high-speed-for-a-high-price/article/3870376)

Didn't see the posted, but I guess this guy is local. I see one in Deep Deuce all the time.

I can't wait to see what the $35000 Tesla will be like.