Another thread hijacked to preach dogma. Imagine that. Can ANY THREAD stay on subject or is the urge to preach and preach and preach just too much? We all now know about all the evil conspiracies to force cars, busses, single family houses, free choice.....because every thread turns into diatribe about the evils of options and choice. Viva new urbanism.

Haven't you talked about quality construction, just like JTF is doing, in this very thread?

Unfortunately, that is exactly the type of reasoning that keeps better projects from being built. It is a lot safer being lower than average than above average. Without proper standards which are vigorously enforced, gravity could drag the area down and down over time.
Sounds like preaching to me.

There is a difference about demanding quality construction and once again talking about conspiratorial shams by the building industry AGAIN. First, most on here can't talk SPECIFICS about building quality, but resort to broad overreaching dogma and conspiracy theories. Please, lets DO talk about building quality on this project and how we can mobilize to insure it happens. Let's DO talk about what happens in THIS neighborhood at THIS time, not some great generalization that is mostly a matter of opinion and lack of perspective.

When some news about this project happens we will talk about it. Until then we are talking about the general raising of construction standards to ensure things like this don't get proposed/approved in the future (which in reality is about 90% of this thread anyhow - see 'through the wall air conditioning')

So, talk about specifics, not conspiracy theories and bad, bad evil businessmen with hoaxes. I try to point out things that actually CAN be changed and DO matter on THIS project...things that directly affect the building quality. People dismissed my concern for the faux stucco on the level and I pointed out things like staining, and lo and behold, it is already staining and the stucco already shows un-eveness. Let's actually promote things that matter about construction and put some teeth into our codes. Let's not wail about the bogey man or how it would be okay if we were just back to the 1800s. Leave the paranoia and dogma to threads started to discuss overall philosophies, opinions and conspiracies.

The hotel has been canceled.

Can you define 'canceled'? Is dead as in we will see this land up for sale soon - or we will get some new version from the same owner at some point in the future?

I don't know about the land. Just now the developer has withdrawn their submission and cited a general lack of discontent from the neighborhood with their proposal. They felt they were within code but that the neighborhood wouldn't be pleased and so they didn't want to upset the neighborhood by putting in either a use or a design that neighbors would forever be upset about.

Well let me say, good for them. Hopefully they can come back with a different proposal that will not only make them money, but enhance the neighborhood at the same time.

I don't know about the land. Just now the developer has withdrawn their submission and cited a general lack of discontent from the neighborhood with their proposal. They felt they were within code but that the neighborhood wouldn't be pleased and so they didn't want to upset the neighborhood by putting in either a use or a design that neighbors would forever be upset about.

Whoa. Deep Deuce has officially become a force.

Hopefully they can come back with a different proposal that will not only make them money, but enhance the neighborhood at the same time.

They will when they realize that enhancing the neighborhood will make them more money in the long run or it will be someone else who does it.

I'm not anti-development at all, and I don't think people here generally are either. But I think we can agree that no development is better than bad development. I drove through the area (actually looking at The Hill) yesterday, and I was trying to imagine that ugly hotel there and how much it would set the neighborhood back. This is a good thing, IMO. We are now seeing infill throughout the Downtown area, something we were desperate to see just a few years ago. But things have changed. We're no longer desperate for development and investment. Now we can afford to insist on quality development and land use as the last few remaining parcels are being developed and going off the board.

sad that they think that people didn't like the use ... as a hotel would be great for this lot ..

sad that they think that people didn't like the use ... as a hotel would be great for this lot ..

Not trying to impugn them, but this may be their way of suggesting that everyone opposed to their bad design are just a bunch of NIMBYs, which is certainly not the case. If it were, there would not be an Aloft Hotel and a Holiday Inn Express going up in the neighborhood.

Not wanting that hotel design =/= not wanting any hotel on that corner.
Sad if they unable or unwilling to see the difference in the two.

Hopefully, whatever is proposed next will be a far better fit in appearance. As for the lot being a park, that's an easy one. If someone wants prime land to be dedicated to a park, buy it and donate it to the city for that restricted purpose, and if they really want to make a statement, toss on a restricted endowment to maintain it and update its features every few years so it doesn't become a burden to the city or get ignored. Other than that, it ought not be a park.

They will when they realize that enhancing the neighborhood will make them more money in the long run or it will be someone else who does it.

Here is the deal, Deep Deuce (and the rest of downtown for that matter) is still a ground floor opportunity. The quality of the development dictates how high that opportunity will go. While driving around Vero Beach, FL looking at the multi-million dollar beach front homes and developments my father-in-law points out all the projects he could have bought into over the years at the ground floor - but didn't. Downtown OKC is at this stage right now. Lay a quality foundation and the sky is the limit. Imagine being able to transport back to 1890's Boston and constructing a hotel in the newly populated Back Bay district - cha ching.

The problem with this and many other commercial construction projects is that buildings are (literally) built to be disposable. I read somewhere a while back that the average lifespan for a new commercial structure is less than 20 years, and that standards have thus been adjusted to reflect this. In other words if the building ISN'T EVEN GOING TO BE STANDING in 20 years, - MUCH LESS OWNED BY ME - why do I want to invest any more in it than I absolutely have to?

It's of course very shortsighted and in many cases inaccurate. I understand cheaping out on a McDonalds in the 'burbs, but a hotel built in downtown SHOULD be a different animal. I will agree with JTF in his pining over older architectural styles in that THOSE buildings were built in the expectation that they would last for generations, be handed down through families, etc. That is rarely the case today, as many take pride only in what they extract, and not in what they leave.

I read somewhere a while back that the average lifespan for a new commercial structure is less than 20 years, and that standards have thus been adjusted to reflect this

I'll have to see if I can find it but I recently saw a very similar stat for homes. The life expectancy of a new house is under 50 years (barely long enough for the original owner to pay off the first mortgage). Then of course they will own a home in an area where most homes will be gone or dilapidated.

The problem with this and many other commercial construction projects is that buildings are (literally) built to be disposable. I read somewhere a while back that the average lifespan for a new commercial structure is less than 20 years, and that standards have thus been adjusted to reflect this. In other words if the building ISN'T EVEN GOING TO BE STANDING in 20 years, - MUCH LESS OWNED BY ME - why do I want to invest any more in it than I absolutely have to?

It's of course very shortsighted and in many cases inaccurate. I understand cheaping out on a McDonalds in the 'burbs, but a hotel built in downtown SHOULD be a different animal. I will agree with JTF in his pining over older architectural styles in that THOSE buildings were built in the expectation that they would last for generations, be handed down through families, etc. That is rarely the case today, as many take pride only in what they extract, and not in what they leave.
Agree a hunnert percent. There will be very little construction left behind that shows that we were here. I wish construction now days were like it was 100+ years ago. That it was built to last. Built to be a testament to who we were.

My house (built with ICFs) will likely be here in 100 years or more. If that type of construction is really only 10% higher than wood construction and is far more tornado proof, I don't know why people aren't using it more for custom homes. Since my utilities are between 10 and 20% of what they were in my wood-framed houses, I've paid off the additional construction costs in a few years. I hate to think of all those trees being cut down, only to end up in a landfill in 50-75 years.

The application to the Downtown Design Review Committee for this project has been withdrawn.

They could always re-apply, but for now it's completely off the table.

Well I hate to think that future developers think we do not want a hotel. We just didn't want THAT buildings design and quality.

Patel still owns the property and is prolific hotel builder and operator, so I'm sure he'll come back at this and probably sooner rather than later.

I think it's a good sign that this particular design has been withdrawn. Hopefully, if he comes back it will be with something entirely different.

Patel still owns the property and is prolific hotel builder and operator, so I'm sure he'll come back at this and probably sooner rather than later.

I think it's a good sign that this particular design has been withdrawn. Hopefully, if he comes back it will be with something entirely different.

It struck me while reading this that it might be better to include the full name in these kind of references as we have multiple Patels doing development in the area (although it's perfectly clear here because of context).
"Patel" is like the Iranian equivalent to "Smith" or "Jones" as far as being a very common last name. :)

It struck me while reading this that it might be better to include the full name in these kind of references as we have multiple Patels doing development in the area (although it's perfectly clear here because of context).
"Patel" is like the Iranian equivalent to "Smith" or "Jones" as far as being a very common last name. :)

You mean Indian.

You mean Indian.

Oops. Yes, you are correct. Indian (i.e. from India)

the height and hotel part IMHO are fine ...

the materials and street interaction for this site are not ..

I don't know too much about the balance of the materials, but I was preparing a bid on the structural materials (for Key Constr)
and as far as a seven-floor structure, on a square foot basis, the materials were very expensive.

I've supplied structural products for hotels 4 to 6 stories for HE Expresses, Amerisuites, Embassy Suites and other Spring Hills and this
building was perhaps 30 % heavier than other hotels. It is possible the building permit number had no relationship in reality to what
the true construction cost would have been had the project moved forward.

The application to the Downtown Design Review Committee for this project has been withdrawn.

They could always re-apply, but for now it's completely off the table.

The "Save-A-Tree" Movement would like to thank the applicant for its withdraw. ;-)

I don't care if they withdrew. Hopefully this is the begging of the "raising the standards" movement in OKC lol, and the developers will realize that it's time to up their game.

New slogan: "we've upped our standards...now, up yours!"

Yeah, we really didn't need this development, either. It's not even as if additional development in Deep Deuce at the moment would have been ideal.

I'm sure all the residents there will feel like they've been spared even more construction while a lot of the new housing is still being finished.

I don't care if they withdrew. Hopefully this is the begging of the "raising the standards" movement in OKC lol, and the developers will realize that it's time to up their game.*beginning

Surprised no one has posted this yet:

Controversial Springhill Suites Project Being Moved from Deep Deuce to Bricktown? | News OK (http://newsok.com/controversial-springhill-suites-project-being-moved-from-deep-deuce-to-bricktown/article/3865354)

It's the whole working for a living thing.


Surprised no one has posted this yet:

Controversial Springhill Suites Project Being Moved from Deep Deuce to Bricktown? | News OK (http://newsok.com/controversial-springhill-suites-project-being-moved-from-deep-deuce-to-bricktown/article/3865354)

Interesting.

The property he owns in Bricktown is bigger so that will allow more flexibility in design.

But, if it looks anything like what he proposed for DD, it will be just as out of place anywhere downtown.

Exterior wise, it seems the same concerns would remain for east Bricktown as for the earlier location.

It's the whole working for a living thing.

Bazinga...

The exterior is still a hot mess regardless of location except maybe lower Bricktown. Sadly, it would fit in there.

The exterior is still a hot mess regardless of location except maybe lower Bricktown. Sadly, it would fit in there.

Haha...I'd just call it a "mess". At least a hot mess is trying to look good.

If anything, the design standards for Bricktown are more stringent than those of DD.

Hopefully, this will turn out a lot like the Holiday Inn Express.

Good luck denying him a large surface parking lot when one was allowed right across the street.

The exterior is still a hot mess regardless of location except maybe lower Bricktown. Sadly, it would fit in there.

I agree. It might actually benefit Lower Bricktown if it meant the end of some of the canal-side surface parking.

No one will care about his design if he just goes and builds out on 15th & Meridian ;-)

I agree. It might actually benefit Lower Bricktown if it meant the end of some of the canal-side surface parking.

I don't know, I think I'd take the canal surface parking over this...

I don't know, I think I'd take the canal surface parking over this...

As much as I really really hate the sea of parking south of Bass Pro ... yeah, ok.

Well if they allowed crappy Candlewood, now they have to allow this. They should have made a stand for building codes...

Well if they allowed crappy Candlewood, now they have to allow this. They should have made a stand for building codes...

They can be totally capricious if they choose -- and if they feel enough pressure to deny this. This is like a giant game of Whack-a-Mole.

Noticed they are putting up fence poles around the perimeter of the property. I assume they are using it as staging for construction of the Steelyard project. Can anyone verify?

Noticed they are putting up fence poles around the perimeter of the property. I assume they are using it as staging for construction of the Steelyard project. Can anyone verify?

Nothing has come through design review for this site.

And although it's the same owners as the Bricktown SpringHill Suites site, the same group owns the property directly to the east so I would think they would use that for staging.