The following is actual data on the AVERAGE cost to do a 6 story hotel IN OKC. This is professional data, not someone's opinion. This is why we should be worried about the indicated cost of construction of this project. This cost does not include furnishings, etc. So, let's hope the cost for permitting purposes is grossly understated or is just an error.

It is time we quite getting hysterical just about whether it is 6 or 10 feet from the curb and actually start requiring quality construction that will still be here in 50 years and still be solid. We have to quit judging by skin-deep evidence. Let's get smart OKC.




Construction Cost Estimates for Hotel, 4-7 Story in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

The following analysis estimates the cost to build a hotel, 4-7 story for Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Costs are derived from a building model that assumes basic components, using union labor for a 135000 square foot building.

NOTE: This cost estimate uses 2013 RSMeans data.

Hotel, 4-7 Story Construction Cost Assumptions

Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Stories: 6

Story Height (L.F.): 10.00

Floor Area (S.F.): 135000

Basement Included: No

Data Release: Year 2013

HOTEL, 4-7 STORY SQUARE FOOT COST ASSUMING FACE BRICK WITH CONCRETE BLOCK BACK-UP / R/CONC. FRAME

Cost Estimate (Union Labor)
Total Cost Per SF: $111.66
Cost: $15,074,100 (not including architectural fees or GC fees)


Cost Estimate (Open Shop)
Total Cost Per SF: $102.97
Cost: $13,900,700 (not including architectural fees or GC fees)

Ugh. I'm certainly not uniformed about this developers past projects and what building costs are. If they are going to come up with something amazing at $50/sq/ft then I'll be pleasantly surprised. In the mean time, this city has a history of really crappy urban design and I'm investing too much time and money in Deep Deuce to see it ruined by someone wanting to make a fast buck. It has zero to do with message boards. This city has spawned a generation of citizens fed up with cheap talk.

If Steve is informed, I sure wish he'd share. I asked for documents and haven't gotten them yet. It'd be nice to act as an 'informed' citizen rather than a citizen who flinches every time a developer raises their hand.

Bingo.

Given Rover's estimates above, the $61/sqft HAS to be a typo or we're overlooking something, right? It just doesn't seem possible to build something at that price unless it is pure, utter horse****.

Bingo.

Given Rover's estimates above, the $61/sqft HAS to be a typo or we're overlooking something, right? It just doesn't seem possible to build something at that price unless it is pure, utter horse****.

If it was 3-4 stories...MAYBE if it is built of wood. I am positive a 6 story building cannot be built for that SF cost since it will have to be steel or reinforced concrete.

Estimate above was reinforced concrete, cinderblock, with brick facing. $110 per foot

Keep in mind that there are often multiple building permits, so the application filed may only be for a part of this project.

However, we'll know more once we actually see the plans and none of us want to wait until the committee meeting -- where they often approve projects on the spot -- before getting all the information.

Well if nothing else, it seems years of perseverance have finally paid for those of us wanting to raise the bar on downtown construction. I am with mkjeeves in hoping that we don't set the bar so high that it starts excluding people wholesale.

Well if nothing else, it seems years of perseverance have finally paid for those of us wanting to raise the bar on downtown construction. I am with mkjeeves in hoping that we don't set the bar so high that it starts excluding people wholesale.

I'm fine with setting the bar as high as possible for Deep Deuce right now. I personally think the brand equity of Deep Deuce right now and over the next 5 to 10 years is as high as it is ever going to be. So making sure that it's done in a way that is of the highest quality we can attain so that in 30 years it's still in great shape when the preference is for MidTown, C2S, and even the Flat Iron districts.

Well if nothing else, it seems years of perseverance have finally paid for those of us wanting to raise the bar on downtown construction. I am with mkjeeves in hoping that we don't set the bar so high that it starts excluding people wholesale.

We are WWWAAAYYY far away from setting the bar too high. We don't even set it at average yet. Problem is, too many people don't even know what a reasonable bar is, so everything looks great.

Maybe they'll fix Perry St. railroad crossing considering more traffic will be here with a hotel...

From Steve's chat today:

Comment From Nick
There seems to be a bit of backlash to the proposed hotel in Deep Deuce at 1st and Perry. What are your thoughts? Are people getting too upset at the cost per sq. foot by reading too much into it or is cheap BT hotel construction headed north?

Steve Lackmeyer: I think people are uninformed and need to wait and see what is proposed first. This is a typical example of the downside of online message boards.

The oracle hath spoken. I too would like to find out information about the project. Where I take issue with Steve's condescension is that it's never too early to begin discussing these types of projects. How many times have projects just kind of sneaked past us before the citizens had the opportunity to mount opposition (when opposition was appropriate; not a default stance)?

I'm going to say Steve is still a little peeved at OKC Talk. Getting antsy over this project was factually-based; this is $60/sf construction. That should concern anyone, and should also be a part of journalistic coverage to this point.

I hugely disagree with anyone who suggests that people wait to give the developer's army of lawyers time to get the first word in. The first word in, every time, should be that there are standards in place and we will see if their development meets those or doesn't meet those.

I went to protest SandRidge's development a week before its official hearing and the DDRC stopped me, told me I was too early, and suggested I should come back later. I will never forget that, and we know how that ended up. These commissions are established just to rubber stamp bad downtown developments, and it IS important to beat them to the punch with PR, before the Oklahoman editorial board runs a piece entitled, "Free market is booming downtown with latest downtown hotel."

I just looked at the Hilton Garden Inn costs, and they're spending $250 a square foot (If I did the math correctly, which is not a 100% assumption). So, either this is a permit for part of the construction only (hope so!) or there's a dramatic falloff in quality of materials and/or construction costs.

And the Hilton Garden Inn is STILL a through-the-wall HVAC setup, something that probably should be banned on a go-forward basis for downtown and the immediate proximity.

This now seems to be the design standard (Hampton Inn, Homewood Suites, Holiday Inn Express, etc.) the one exception of new construction being the Aloft.

Enough already with this cheesy approach. That is best suited for I-40 and Meridian, not the urban core which is the primary face of our city.

So.....thoughts on the railroad crossing on Perry? Still think they'll fix that with this hotel going in??

The fallacy and what's really insulting is that these discussions are only happening on 'online message boards'. That's just not true. It's pretty normal coffee shop discussion around here.

I've tweeted many things I've overheard people say during my walks in and around Bricktown.

Things like... "Susan said it was just up a few blocks. We didn't know the blocks here are a mile long!" and "I feel like Brickdown just doesn't have any kind of plan".

Visitors, not just locals, aren't as uniformed as we may think. I chatted with a lady and her daughter from Germany today at the coffee shop in Bricktown. They were trying to find things to do. They were getting hot and I said yeah, it gets hot and humid in these parts. Do you know what they said? "In the pictures it looked like there were more trees".

Talk is cheap. I'll err on the side of action (and over-reaction if that's what it takes) to remind our leadership that a couple neighborhoods in OKC are supposed to be different. Markedly different.

Another thing is that it doesn't make sense for Steve to come down on advocates who are outspokenly informative. Those are the people who get their friends to read Steve's blog, articles, etc. I really don't think he of all people wants the "silly online message boards" to pipe down and let the big boys get this project passed...

I suspect there's a little bit of being upset at the competition. This site is very powerful now, and we often hear of future events on this board before ANY news outlet can run a story. Obviously what can be posted on this site by anonymous posters who may be in the know, is much different than a journalist running a story before being given permission or doing other background work. Just the nature of these two different outlets and I am sure it is frustrating for things to get a head start on this forum before a story can be run. I rarely visit the Oklahoman anymore (or any other news outlet) because often information here is faster and a lot of times can be very accurate and more detailed -- if you know what posters are credible and ignore the rest.

But...that is the nature of the game.

I didn't see Steve's comments as harsh, or even especially critical of this board or anything else. I saw them as observational. His description was "...an example of the downside of online message boards." That's fair. Just as there is an upside, there must be a downside. In the case of this board, it is that we often jump onto something without all of the facts. Don't be offended by the "uniformed" comment; while it seems jarring it is absolutely accurate. Witness all of the posts where we are trying to get a handle on things, mostly by guessing. A better description (but perhaps more offensive to some) might even have been "ignorant." We often DON'T know the full details, but are still willing to castigate a project based on early, incomplete information. I think he was just acknowledging that.

I usually bite my tongue around here on discussions like this (the ones where I feel people have their torches and pitchforks out despite incomplete understanding), but will say something in this case: Pete has pointed out what is the likely scenario; this is probably the first of more than one building permit. I will go a little bit further and say there is ZERO possibility that the number in that permit represents the finished cost of this project. It is literally impossible at that price. If it ends up being the hotel flag previously discussed, I would guess the finished cost at easily north of $15 million, or more.

Now, I will be the first to admit that I am as ignorant as the rest of us on the full details of this project, and that I am anxious to hear more. I will also say that I feel it is very appropriate to watch it like a hawk. I share the same frustration when lousy projects get "too far down the road to stop" due to details emerging to slowly. I also agree that we need to begin holding projects in the core to a higher standard (and in fact should have done so long ago). But I am willing to believe that there is a lot more to this particular story (mostly based on the fact that there is no chance in hell that the number involved is final), and hopeful that details will emerge soon.

The vilification of Steve on this forum is pretty worn. The dude is not anti-OKCTalk and I get the impression that his biggest problem with OKCTalk is the constant discord going on between him and a variety of posters that is driven by over-the-top rhetoric and proves to be anti-conversational. How about someone, you know, ask Steve why he thinks certain things (again, w/o unnecessary sharp rhetoric) and let him expound when you disagree. No need to call him out...just ask questions.

He's not perfect but he's given way more than enough to deserve the benefit of the doubt and a charitable approach to disagreement. Certainly, trying this approach being used against an established, prominent OKC journalist in a public forum behind (for most here) an anonymous screen name is a great way to get him to be less active in the valuable discussions that go on in this forum. At some point, you get tired of defending yourself.

sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo.............................. ....................................

still no one thinks that the railroad crossing on Perry will be fixed?

Geez, do I need to register a new screen name?????????????????

I don't think this hotel alone is going to create enough impetus to fix it. However, add in the new hotel and apartment complex at the metal fabrication site, as well as pressure from the Hill and I think you may see more street improvements and sidewalks.

I agree Sid. This one is worth watching very closely.

Also, despite evidence to the contrary, I DO know the proper usage of to/too/two.

I'll take worry over indifference any day. I looked at pictures of his other hotels online, and while he may have bought rather than built them, we may have to say "Welcome to the neighborhood and the constraints of building in viewing distance of the CBD."

I usually bite my tongue around here on discussions like this (the ones where I feel people have their torches and pitchforks out despite incomplete understanding), but will say something in this case: Pete has pointed out what is the likely scenario; this is probably the first of more than one building permit. I will go a little bit further and say there is ZERO possibility that the number in that permit represents the finished cost of this project. It is literally impossible at that price. If it ends up being the hotel flag previously discussed, I would guess the finished cost at easily north of $15 million, or more.

Well, which happens more often... official planning documents are extremely inaccurate, or developers propose something shoddy downtown.

That's a rhetorical question, because I know you to be tired of ever-dropping building standards as well. Developers get away with way too much. As far as I'm concerned, the fact that the pitchforks come out as soon as a project is announced falls back on the city for allowing so much crap to pass muster. This is an indictment of the city, not an online message board comprising of the city's most informed discussions.

And why would a developer build to a higher standard when their tenants can make the same money (because people will go there with their wallets regardless) and have less overhead? Why especially would a developer build to a higher standard when something incredibly cheap might, and most likely, WILL be built right across from you? There is NO confidence in the city's building standards, no confidence in boards of review or design commissions, and no confidence in the longevity of real estate investments as long as such low building standards are truly in place.

As for what Steve said, you're right that what he said wasn't technically wrong. But he said that we need to sit back and wait for a certain point in this process for our comments to be valid, and that absolutely incenses me. Everyone knows I almost always come out to defend Steve, but I just can not defend anyone who wants people to wait before expressing concern. WAITING is exactly how we have lost every single one of these battles.

The vilification of Steve on this forum is pretty worn. The dude is not anti-OKCTalk and I get the impression that his biggest problem with OKCTalk is the constant discord going on between him and a variety of posters that is driven by over-the-top rhetoric and proves to be anti-conversational. How about someone, you know, ask Steve why he thinks certain things (again, w/o unnecessary sharp rhetoric) and let him expound when you disagree. No need to call him out...just ask questions.

He's not perfect but he's given way more than enough to deserve the benefit of the doubt and a charitable approach to disagreement. Certainly, trying this approach being used against an established, prominent OKC journalist in a public forum behind (for most here) an anonymous screen name is a great way to get him to be less active in the valuable discussions that go on in this forum. At some point, you get tired of defending yourself.

There is more to this than meets the eye. Steve is not a perfect innocent angel shining the beacon of truth. He can dish it out but is quite sensitive to even valid criticism and reasonable questions, which he quickly labels as attacks.

sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo.............................. ....................................

still no one thinks that the railroad crossing on Perry will be fixed?

Geez, do I need to register a new screen name?????????????????

This is the area OKCisOK4me is talking about. The area has no sidewalks, no street markings, and isn't lit. I don't know how much longer the City can ignore this area but as Betts said, with construction starting soon all along this road it will improve along with those developments.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/walk2_zps0ceff7c5.jpg

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/walk1_zps8c8fc5c7.jpg

But, Kerry. I can see some nice, worn down areas in the grass. Surely that's good enough.

Yep, but as I told my oldest son today - a worn path in the grass is the number one way to tell a sidewalk is needed.

Yep, but as I told my oldest son today - a worn path in the grass is the number one way to tell a sidewalk is needed.

LOL, you didn't see the smile on my face while I was typing that.

LOL, you didn't see the smile on my face while I was typing that.

Actually, I did envision you with a smile. For a little back story, I went riding bikes with my son (14 years old) yesterday and he noticed a path worn through the grass at an intersection. He said they need to put a sidewalk there because people are obviously walking there. In my book that makes him smarter on walkability than 99% of the traffic engineers.

Anyhow, it is good to know that this area will be receiving the kind of upgrade it needs. That path is pretty worn and it makes me wonder who is walking there. There are still not a lot of people living at the Hill and it goes into a kind of vacant part of Bricktown.

This street is slated for improvements. I believe it will be funded with TIFF 2 funds and from what I've been told, it should be soon.

Really?

That entire street section needs to be rebuilt the right way.

One of the greatest ideas I've seen from this forum is to turn this stretch of Perry into an urban trail (maintaining vehicular access but combining it with separated running and bike trails) that connects Deep Deuce to Boathouse Row.

One of the greatest ideas I've seen from this forum is to turn this stretch of Perry into an urban trail (maintaining vehicular access but combining it with separated running and bike trails) that connects Deep Deuce to Boathouse Row.

Brilliant!

From Steve:

Criticize First, Ask Questions and Gather Facts Later? | OKC Central (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2013/05/30/criticize-first-ask-questions-and-gather-facts-later/)

Includes some pictures of the construction drawings.

From the drawings shown in Steve's blog, this is in fact another through-the-wall-HVAC project.

Where do we draw the line here? The huge majority of new hotel projects in and around downtown have this feature and the city is going to be left with this legacy for decades.

From what I can see of the site plan it is okay. It does have surface parking but at least it is hidden behind the building AND only has 22 parking spaces - of which 2 are handicap spaces. It includes on-street parking with curb kick-outs and is built pretty close to the street. I wish it had more massing at the corner instead of just the guest drop off but maybe they can put a fountain there (anything would be better than a patch of grass or flower bed). All in all, it looks like it only needs more brick. It will be interesting to see what kind of signage is proposed.

And BTW, Steve's entire premise for this blog post is misguided.

The whole point is to ask questions and gather information as early as possible, which is what we are doing here and he is dong as well.

And in fact, if we hadn't raised these issues I seriously doubt he would have gone through the trouble to collect the information and photos that he did. First time I've ever seen him go down to the planning department and take photos of drawings. I hope he'll do more of this, rather than wait for them to be released to the public 2 days before the approval meetings.


So, please explain how "this is a typical example of the downside of online message boards". I think this situation is exactly the opposite.

There is no doubt that anything being built downtown is going to get a lot more scrutiny than it did in the past. People are going to have to get used to that. If people who care about downtown have a predisposed notion that anything being proposed will be of low quality it is because there is good reason for that - a lot of it has been low quality and most of that was provided as a direct result of the City itself. Let this be a notice to all developers - if you are coming downtown you better bring your A game.

I'm not even sure what we were doing was criticizing. When you see a building permit that appears unreasonably inexpensive and you have looked at the other hotels he owns, I consider that airing concerns. It's quite clear that people in OKC need to be involved enough to express concern, as we've seen prior developers trying to get away with cost savings that are not good for the neighborhood. I am not sure why we should allow any synthetic stucco on a hotel that small.

I've not taken a position on this as yet. On one hand, I think that Steve is clearly correct that some in this thread ... and I'm not naming names ... have jumped to hasty and quite possibly incorrect conclusions. On the other hand, I see nothing wrong at all with citizens raising concerns which they deem critical and doing some math from the preliminary (at least) cost information which has been made available ... if the cost is only a piece of the total cost, it would have been easy enough for the developer to have stated what the total projected cost might be and such disclosure may well have made a good bit of the discussion in this thread irrelevant ... but the developer didn't do that, one would hope.

Now, in the long run, if the total projected cost doesn't turn out to be a great deal more than the preliminary cost data provided by the developer then the nay-sayers will have made their point in spades. But if the total projected cost turns out to be much much greater than the preliminary data, then Steve will have made his point in spades.

One way or another, someone is going to wind up looking kinda silly.

So there.

I don't think anyone is going to look silly, as it has been clearly stated in this thread that the one building permit might not represent all the planned construction.

What in heaven's name is wrong with getting out in front of these issues and trying to get information ASAP?

Even Steve is drawing all types of conclusions in his blog post (amount of stucco, for example)... Does that represent uninformed jumping-of-the-gun??


There is absolutely nothing wrong and there is zero downside to publishing information as it becomes available and having discussion around it. In fact, there are massive benefits.

As has been stated many times, by the time the public gets a pretty full picture of what is planned, it's way too late to do anything about it. There have been many instances where this site and the people that post here have shared information long before it was released to the general public, and how that has led to getting people involved in making the community a better place. The Boulevard is one example but there are hundreds more.

well said pete

Well luckily the forum has enough time to self-implode at least three times between now and 7/18 so bring on those renderings!

Nice prediction. Clearly some people have temporary memory loss and should read this entire thread again.

Sorry, but Steve's blog read read as a very defensive piece. Instead of saying that the interest and concern shown on OKCTalk shows that OKC is interested in establishing and forcing high standards for all of downtown he chose to say "I'm better than those people at OKCTalk because I take a superior position of waiting til its over". He just doubled down on his insult of those with a sincere interest. I am disappointed in Steve. His job as a reporter is to keep digging and keep clarifying and to present all sides fairly.

We all hope we are wrong and this turns out great...and is great for many many years. Right now, and justifiably so, there is a pit in our stomachs. So Steve, please quit lecturing or positioning and go get us actual facts so we are not the "uninformed" downside of social media you apparently look down on.

Remaining your uninformed friend,

Sid

That's funny Sid.

Glad your an actual engaged Deep Deuce citizen. You keep up the good work. People like you will help ensure this is a preferred development.

I hate the constant debate in semantics and innuendo that often plays out here.

I don't think anyone is going to look silly, as it has been clearly stated in this thread that the one building permit might not represent all the planned construction.

What in heaven's name is wrong with getting out in front of these issues and trying to get information ASAP?

Even Steve is drawing all types of conclusions in his blog post (amount of stucco, for example)... Does that represent uninformed jumping-of-the-gun??

There is absolutely nothing wrong and there is zero downside to publishing information as it becomes available and having discussion around it. In fact, there are massive benefits.

As has been stated many times, by the time the public gets a pretty full picture of what is planned, it's way too late to do anything about it. There have been many instances where this site and the people that post here have shared information long before it was released to the general public, and how that has led to getting people involved in making the community a better place. The Boulevard is one example but there are hundreds more.

Pete, if you can read every post in this thread and honestly say that some posters have not already reached at least some conclusions (whether that be square ft. cost, quality of the developer, quality of the project, or something else) and/or that others don't already have a predisposition against this project for one reason or another, we had different junior and senior high school as well as college English teachers (ha ha ... as we obviously did).


You said, "I don't think anyone is going to look silly, as it has been clearly stated in this thread that the one building permit might not represent all the planned construction." I do agree that the point has been mentioned by you, if not at the outset but eventually, but the inference by some who have posted seems to ignore that possibility (that more than one permit may be involved). Just because you, individually, have taken that position doesn't mean that other posters followed your lead, once you eventually stated it. If anyone winds up looking silly, it will be those who jumped to judgment in one way or another as some in this thread have already done, in my opinion.


You said, "What in heaven's name is wrong with getting out in front of these issues and trying to get information ASAP?" Nothing at all. That activity is right as rain. But, that's not the only activity that has occurred in this interesting thread, IMO.


You said, "Even Steve is drawing all types of conclusions in his blog post (amount of stucco, for example)... Does that represent uninformed jumping-of-the-gun??" To that (and some other comments in this thread which strike me as forum-defensive), I say that Steve is not the only one who might be said to have a thin skin. I am a friend of Steve's yet I'll agree to the critique ... but the same critique fits some of the posters in this thread, as well.


I think it might be good for everyone to take a few steps back ... true for Steve as well ... and take a few deep breaths ... and avoid reaching conclusions all the way around. We are all friends here who want the best for our city, are we not?

It might be good for everyone to chill for a bit ... advice that I give to my friend Steve, too ... at least until some NEW data becomes available. Maybe the data will come via Steve, maybe it will come via Sid as he sniff's out the plans, maybe from the developer, or maybe from somewhere else. When it does become available, the new data can be thrown into the pot and analyzed, one piece or a whole bunch of new pieces simultaneously provided at a time.

By the way, having just re-read all of the posts in this thread, the collective posts made by Just the facts strike me as coming the closest to matching the above description. Of course, that is only my opinion which, I don't think, in any reasonable way, can rightly be challenged by anyone.

:laughing_

I've just read through all the posts as well, and I think the discussion is fine. Lots of people are expressing the hope that the permit is a partial one or a misprint. There is some concern, which I think is justifiable, having looked at all the other hotels Dr. Patel owns. Most of the drama seems generated by discussions about the thread, rather than the thread posts. But, having participated in a variety over the years I've learned that message boards are not for the faint of heart. This one is pretty tame, relative to others I've read.

Jill, also my friend, you weren't exactly silent about stating some conclusions earlier in this thread. In your 1st post in this thread, you said, "That's about $50 a square foot for construction. Is that what we would expect for a nicer hotel? I would think that being in Deep Deuce, the level of construction required would be at a minimum that required of the Hampton Inn and Hilton Garden Inn. "

Did you not make any assumptions in the above?

I say thing same as I said before ... everyone needs to chill until new data is available.

I've just read through all the posts as well, and I think the discussion is fine. Lots of people are expressing the hope that the permit is a partial one or a misprint. There is some concern, which I think is justifiable, having looked at all the other hotels Dr. Patel owns. Most of the drama seems generated by discussions about the thread, rather than the thread posts. But, having participated in a variety over the years I've learned that message boards are not for the faint of heart. This one is pretty tame, relative to others I've read.You are not kidding. Even the moderators step waaaaay over the line on other forums and I had a moderator tell me, quote "stick my head up my ass and keep my questions in OKC(whatever that means)", from the Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum. Pete and MMM are some of the most open and most reasonable people I've seen anywhere. The OKCTalk community is great and self moderating 99% of the time. How many other discussion boards can the same be said for? I can't think of one, and like you, I've been to many.

I'm certain that all would concur that OkcTalk is a superior board, has superior moderators, and that none of the posts in this thread are out of line in the sense that you allude to. None, other than you, have even raised such an issue.

I'm certain that all would concur that OkcTalk is a superior board and that none of the posts in this thread are "out of line" in the sense that you mention. None other than you have even raised such an issue.I never said any post on this board were out of line.

Ok, so what was your point, in the context of this thread?

I was simply responding to a part of a post made by Betts, that said that this board, OKCTalk, is a great and mature board, and I agreed with her. Is that a problem?

No, even though it is off topic.

ummm okay, there is a lot of off topic posts made and you come after me???? Anyways, never mind. Just wanted to make a quick reply, didn't think that was going to make anyone mad, in fact, I thought some would understand what I mean't by saying this is a great board with a great moderator and owner.

Jill, also my friend, you weren't exactly silent about stating some conclusions earlier in this thread. In your 1st post in this thread, you said, "That's about $50 a square foot for construction. Is that what we would expect for a nicer hotel? I would think that being in Deep Deuce, the level of construction required would be at a minimum that required of the Hampton Inn and Hilton Garden Inn. "

Did you not make any assumptions in the above?

I say thing same as I said before ... everyone needs to chill until new data is available.

I did make an assumption, but I don't think that's the same as a criticism, nor was it strident. I didn't understand that sometimes building permits can be partial and so was alarmed when i did the math. I've built 3 houses and the permit always included everything. So, I stand corrected. And I'm now watchfully waiting, as I like to think I am an amateur steward of the neighborhood, along with many others.

To make sure this thread stays on topic and proper, should it be closed until we are better informed? From now on, we shouldn't discuss things until everything is known?....which is NEVER.

Look at every thread and you will see assumptions and conclusions with NOBODY having full information...even after projects are finished. We have assumptions, opinions and perspectives.

If Patel doesn't want the skepticism publicly discussed he could quickly change the discussion by releasing just a little more information like expected total budget and project scope.

And, if Steve is so offended by the uninformed discussion, he should refrain from giving partial information. He may consistently be scooped and be relegated to being a historian vs. journalist, but he could at least live on the high road.

I've not taken a position on this as yet. On one hand, I think that Steve is clearly correct that some in this thread ... and I'm not naming names ... have jumped to hasty and quite possibly incorrect conclusions. On the other hand, I see nothing wrong at all with citizens raising concerns which they deem critical and doing some math from the preliminary (at least) cost information which has been made available ... if the cost is only a piece of the total cost, it would have been easy enough for the developer to have stated what the total projected cost might be and such disclosure may well have made a good bit of the discussion in this thread irrelevant ... but the developer didn't do that, one would hope.

Now, in the long run, if the total projected cost doesn't turn out to be a great deal more than the preliminary cost data provided by the developer then the nay-sayers will have made their point in spades. But if the total projected cost turns out to be much much greater than the preliminary data, then Steve will have made his point in spades.

One way or another, someone is going to wind up looking kinda silly.

So there.

Who cares? Some people get their panties in a wad trying to prove they're right. In this thread, I didn't see that -- I saw people asking reasonable questions about a proposed project because THEY DON'T HAVE ALL OF THE INFORMATION but have reason to be concerned BASED UPON PUBLICLY AVAILABLE FACTS. Making someone look silly has nothing to do with it. Not sure why these innocuous inquiries raised Steve's ire.

To make sure this thread stays on topic and proper, should it be closed until we are better informed? From now on, we shouldn't discuss things until everything is known?....which is NEVER.

Look at every thread and you will see assumptions and conclusions with NOBODY having full information...even after projects are finished. We have assumptions, opinions and perspectives.

If Patel doesn't want the skepticism publicly discussed he could quickly change the discussion by releasing just a little more information like expected total budget and project scope.

And, if Steve is so offended by the uninformed discussion, he should refrain from giving partial information. He may consistently be scooped and be relegated to being a historian vs. journalist, but he could at least live on the high road.
Rover, I see that my plea to take a few deep breaths and pause until new data becomes available made no impression on you, and that's fine. You certainly do not need my permission to continue to blast away if you are inclined and compelled to do so. I do agree that Patel could have made much of the discussion in this thread irrelevant by a full disclosure of the intended project, which I think that I already said.

Your remarks about Steve are really gross ... I'm quite surprised that you would write those words. I doubt that you would say them to them to him face to face.

Of course I would say it to his face. I think he is great, but for some reason he handled this poorly. Doesn't mean he doesnt handle other things in a great way. He's the best they have at the Oklahoman, but he is human. Not sure why you feel you need to be his bodyguard though. It isn't necessary. He's a pro.

I think it is great that people are passionate about seeing things developed the right way. We continue to be told how great some of these projects are, and frankly, when you know construction you know they just aren't. With no other announcements about this project, with the history of the developer, with the information Steve has given us, and with the lax attitudes exhibited before, why WOULDN'T we be asking these questions and making these assumptions?

Some of us have taken deep breaths, stepped away, and still would like evidence to show our concerns are unfounded. I don't think we keep trusting and waiting, and then when it too late we keep saying, "maybe next time".