I start this thread to share experiences with flight delays since air traffic controllers were reduced two days ago as the result of budget cuts.

Professional pilots I know are talking about experiencing delays despite clear weather and light traffic, and being given greater-than-normal separation between other flights. One pilot reported yesterday being given a 30-mile final approach into a Florida airport with 10-mile separation between other aircraft. Another was delayed two hours despite clear weather at destination and departure airports, and all along the route. A third pilot was complaining about not being permitted to board and get the aircraft ready for flight, having to sit in the terminal. No-one was reporting problems, stressed controllers, congestion, diversions, etc. Some expressed their opinions that this was intentional, a game being played to slow things down and make the point that budget cuts will come with pain - to the flying public.

Recall another intentional slowdown with the intent of inflicting pain was caused by American Airlines pilots when the company filed for bankruptcy. Without going into detail, they intentionally slowed down operations in order to make it known how unhappy they were. I just mention this because most of the flying public don't have the ability to see what's going on, and certainly doesn't understand why. All they know is that they missed their connection to Orlando and their vacation plans were screwed up.

So - from the back of the airplanes, what is everyone's experiencing with delays?

Just a few airports today having slow downs due to staffing: OIS (http://www.fly.faa.gov/ois/)

I've heard mixed results. The most impacted cities are definitely either the slot controlled or already congested airports.

Another possible fallout from this situation.

Airlines Seek Permission to Keep Passengers Waiting on the Tarmac for More Than 3 Hours - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/airlines-seek-permission-keep-passengers-225549917.html)

That tarmac crap better not happen. I feel like 1 hour once you pull away is more than enough. If you aren't ready to taxi and take off, then dont pull away....and thus dont force the passengers to sit there. Communication makes a world of difference, and it's something airlines often fail to have with the passengers.

That tarmac crap better not happen. I feel like 1 hour once you pull away is more than enough. If you aren't ready to taxi and take off, then dont pull away....and thus dont force the passengers to sit there. Communication makes a world of difference, and it's something airlines often fail to have with the passengers.

They push from the gate for a variety of reasons, none of them is to "force the passengers to sit there." The crew occasionally explains that its due to ATC sequencing or other reasons, but its far more complicated than that. A detailed explanation wouldn't be understood, or worse, would have a passenger thinking he could make it happen faster. "If I were on the flight deck, by golly, I'd get this thing off the ground."

Sit tight. The crew wants to get moving just as much as you do.

Most don't understand the crews are not getting paid unless they are flying. To think that flight crews enjoy sitting around unpaid is absurd.

Also we need the gates. You are not the only flight to use the gate for the day, sometimes we must have that gate free to keep the operation moving (that is not being affected by a GDP). If we know the flight has 3 hours until it needs to be airborne, we will push the flight out to keep our gates open. If we near the 3 hour limit, we'll hold another flight and bring the other back.

Working airport operations for an airline is a difficult balancing act and a lot of decisions must be made that are not easy to make and we definitely understand the consequences and impact those decisions make. Unfortunately there are limited options in most cases and we have to work with what we have.

Personally and professionally I'm torn on this, so that makes this debate iffy for me. From a personal standpoint don't make me sit on an aircraft on the ramp for that long. If the expectation is that the flight is going to be sitting for 2-3 hours after push, then you delay the flight and move the aircraft out of the way if you need the gate. Easier said than done I know. I start getting jittery already on long flights and being confined. If I'm doing a transcan and I'm also adding on an additional 2-3 hours of just sitting around, then that's where I start to get twitchy.

At some point I feel its going to be revisited and the ramp hold limit will probably come down to 1 or 2 hours, which will equate to airlines straight out cancelling flights. However, this is moreso a situation airlines have put themselves in by over scheduling airports to their peak capacity. Before O'Hare added the new runway, one little cloud would pop up and you could bet on ground stops. Now it isn't nearly as bad, but it still isn't good. At some point we need to start rationalizing capacity at delay prone airports. Does there need to be service every half hour on 50-seat RJs between two cities versus say once an hour on a mainline aircraft?

There has to be a smart and rationalized way to keep traffic volumes in line with realistic capabilities of the airfield. I would argue that a system should be in place that if an airport averages under 85% of flights departing on time (over 15% delayed) over a 3-5 years average, you become slot controlled. However, the slot system needs to protect, to an extent without being overbearing, smaller communities that might just get tossed aside for medium or large hub (FAA classification not "actual" hubs) destinations. So who would this target?

1. Newark - 23.83% delayed last year...much of this to air space congestion. (UA Hub)
2. SFO - 21.78% delayed ... environment being main driver (UA, Virgin America Hub)
3. MDW - 20.1% delayed (WN Hub)
4. MIA - 19.35% (AA Hub)
5. IAH - 19.29% (UA Hub)
6. ORD - 18.82% (UA, AA Hub)
7. DEN - 18.24% ... I think weather has a lot to play in here since they have plenty of room and runways to keep things moving. (UA, F9, WN Hub)
8. IAD - 18.02% (UA Hub)
9. BWI - 17.64% (WN Hub)
10. DFW - 16.67% (AA Hub)
11. JFK - 16.49% (Many large players)
12. LAS - 15.82% (WN, G4 Hub)
13. PHL - 15.78% (US Hub)
14. FLL - 15.35% (NK Hub)
15. LAX - 15.32% (Many large players - UA, AA, WN, DL)

All figures pulled from BTS data through June 2012.

Lately ground delay programs have been incredibly unpredictable. I can recollect several weeks ago we had the capability to keep the plane on the gate and off load all of the passengers. Every indication we had was a wheels up time firmed for 2 hours after schedule. 30 minutes later, a slot opened up and was offered to the flight we were working. But since we had everyone offloaded and nothing ready to go, we had to deny that and keep the later time. It's better to be ready to go sometimes. No situation is the same and a lot of times the safe and comfortable bet can end up being the worst option.

Lately ground delay programs have been incredibly unpredictable. I can recollect several weeks ago we had the capability to keep the plane on the gate and off load all of the passengers. Every indication we had was a wheels up time firmed for 2 hours after schedule. 30 minutes later, a slot opened up and was offered to the flight we were working. But since we had everyone offloaded and nothing ready to go, we had to deny that and keep the later time. It's better to be ready to go sometimes. No situation is the same and a lot of times the safe and comfortable bet can end up being the worst option.

It is situation that needs to be looked at from the passengers perspective and that of the airlines. As a passenger do I want to sit there for 2 hours in the aircraft? Not really. However, I would have liked the option to get out 1.5 hours earlier than initially estimated. Departure point delays are a different animal as well than arrival delays and waiting for a gate. Some of the delays we've seen of aircraft holding hours for a gate have just been flat out stupid.

I don't envy you guys out on the ramp sweating out the summer. I just wish the industry actually still had some common sense around when it came to operating. The last bit of it left when they jumped ship on the turboprops in favor of those amazing regional jets...that have essentially assisted in leading almost everyone to bankruptcy. LOL

Don't forget that crewmembers run the risk of timing out as well. Check in, brief, prep the flight, board the pax, push and then start counting down to bingo time.

Thanks for reminding me of that :rolleyes:

We are in contact with many different departments during irregular operations including ground delay programs. A crew timing out in OKC is much worse for the system than a crew timing out in a hub.

Flight time would have no impact because the aircraft is not flying. Duty time would be the only consideration and they are planned for that anyway. If their duty time (not to be confused with flight time) ends at 2000z. It doesn't matter if they are in OKC or ORD, they are not legal. If a delay pushed the flight beyond 2000z estimated "in" (arrival) time at destination, a new crew must be found to fly the flight.

For example, flight ABC123 service OKC to ORD. Scheduled for a 7am departure and a 9am arrival into ORD. FAA imposes a GDP, departure time is requoted to 2pm with a 4pm arrival. The crews' duty limits expire at 3pm. They are not legal to depart after 1pm. This most likely would be the crew's first segment of the day, and they would be considered timed out with zero flight time. This would be an unlikely situation, but I have seen departure times requoted to that. And in this case, we would most likely already have canceled the flight and sent the crew back to the hotel.

Another scenario, a flight comes in with a crew that has 4 hours of legal time left. (an afternoon turn flight maybe). Flight time is 2 hours. A 3 hour delay is imposed. The flight crew is timed out whether or not they are on board or sitting in the food court. Doesn't matter if the flight is loaded, pushed, whatever. The only way to preserve duty time is to send the crew to the hotel and be on documented rest.

Thanks for your informative posts, catch22. Just curious do you work for AA in OKC?