I lived in Kansas for the last two years and I couldn't think of a place more like Oklahoma.

While Lawrence has a little different feel, it's not drastically different. Norman and Lawrence have a lot of similarities. Side question, am I the only one not that impressed with KU's campus? The hills are great, but the buildings and overall layout did not strike me as near as beautiful as OU's campus.

Wow.

Lawrence is a whole city. Not a pocket sized "Campus Corner." KU has vistas that are unique. There was more historic planning thought when first building it.

Wow.

Lawrence is a whole city. Not a pocket sized "Campus Corner." KU has vistas that are unique. There was more historic planning thought when first building it.

I think you are wrong here. I have close friends who have lived in both. They actually prefer Norman, because Lawrence is so damn liberal, even though they are originally from Kansas. Otherwise, they say the 2 are very similar. Lawrence may be more historic, likely because Kansas and Lawrence were a state and city before the civil war.

Norman is known to be one of the more conservative college towns in the nation. I think "Keep Norman Normal" is one of the slogans that they used as a response to the Keep Austin Weird campaign. I wonder why that is? Kansas is almost as dark red as Oklahoma yet their college town is a liberal bastion and Oklahoma's isn't.

I think Oklahoma as a state has a lot more "new money" than Kansas, where if there is money it may be older (at least by comparison). New money tends to believe that they earned it bc they're special, and regards people without money as not special. I don't have to infer how that belief might play out on a political or cultural spectrum...


I think you are wrong here. I have close friends who have lived in both. They actually prefer Norman, because Lawrence is so damn liberal, even though they are originally from Kansas. Otherwise, they say the 2 are very similar. Lawrence may be more historic, likely because Kansas and Lawrence were a state and city before the civil war.

First of all your username is Sooner. Second of all the point is that Lawrence is everything Norman is not including liberal, urban, historic, modern, trendy, cultural, and ok and on including as many contradictions as possible.

Norman is kinda bland and not particularly liberal or cultural. Either way, I was talking about vistas in response to dankrutka talking about architecture, and I'm not sure why you moved us onto politics.

I think Oklahoma as a state has a lot more "new money" than Kansas, where if there is money it may be older (at least by comparison). New money tends to believe that they earned it bc they're special, and regards people without money as not special. I don't have to infer how that belief might play out on a political or cultural spectrum...



First of all your username is Sooner. Second of all the point is that Lawrence is everything Norman is not including liberal, urban, historic, modern, trendy, cultural, and ok and on including as many contradictions as possible.

Norman is kinda bland and not particularly liberal or cultural. Either way, I was talking about vistas in response to dankrutka talking about architecture, and I'm not sure why you moved us onto politics.
Obviously you are a Sooner hater to bring up my user name. Would you prefer I use Poke, or Horn, or Jayhawk, what would be "kosher" for you. Not that I owe you an explanation, but, I grew up in Kansas too, and I love Lawrence. I wasn't moving on to politics, I guess you just aren't "sharp" enough to get what I was saying. You don't seem to get along very well with very many other posters on this site. I'm sorry I even responded to your original post. You're dismissed, I'm through with you.

Obviously you are a Sooner hater to bring up my user name. Would you prefer I use Poke, or Horn, or Jayhawk, what would be "kosher" for you. Not that I owe you an explanation, but, I grew up in Kansas too, and I love Lawrence. I wasn't moving on to politics, I guess you just aren't "sharp" enough to get what I was saying. You don't seem to get along very well with very many other posters on this site. I'm sorry I even responded to your original post. You're dismissed, I'm through with you.HA! Welcome to the show buddy. I have only voiced my opinion and it is clear Spartan hates my guts for some reason.

Obviously you are a Sooner hater to bring up my user name. Would you prefer I use Poke, or Horn, or Jayhawk, what would be "kosher" for you. Not that I owe you an explanation, but, I grew up in Kansas too, and I love Lawrence. I wasn't moving on to politics, I guess you just aren't "sharp" enough to get what I was saying. You don't seem to get along very well with very many other posters on this site. I'm sorry I even responded to your original post. You're dismissed, I'm through with you.

One of the stranger posts lately...

What were you saying I was wrong about, the vistas? Or the wholeness of Lawrence? I'm curious bc whatever it is you backed it up with your friend who likes it better in Norman bc Lawrence is too liberal.

Norman is known to be one of the more conservative college towns in the nation. I think "Keep Norman Normal" is one of the slogans that they used as a response to the Keep Austin Weird campaign. I wonder why that is? Kansas is almost as dark red as Oklahoma yet their college town is a liberal bastion and Oklahoma's isn't.

I think this is being exaggerated a bit. A random "Keep Norman Normal" shirt that someone made to make money is a pretty anecdotal piece of evidence for describing political stances of a town.

Anyway, as others have stated, Lawrence has some amenities and development superior to Norman, but it goes both ways. While KU has a great natural landscape, the architecture on OU's campus, the campus layout, and the proximity to Campus Corner are all preferable in my opinion. I'm absolutely no expert on Lawrence (only been 3 times) so this has been an interesting discussion....

The "Keep Norman Normal" shirts were made by the OU Young Republicans for their club members. It's not some sort of city movement.

HA! Welcome to the show buddy. I have only voiced my opinion and it is clear Spartan hates my guts for some reason.

Spartan hates himself/herself that's why he/she is always so negative about everything.

The "Keep Norman Normal" shirts were made by the OU Young Republicans for their club members. It's not some sort of city movement.
"Keep Lubbock Flat"

Spartan hates himself/herself that's why he/she is always so negative about everything.

And we have a breakthrough

And now for an interesting take on Charlotte. Hmmm...

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4941553


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And now for an interesting take on Charlotte. Hmmm...

15 Reasons Why Charlotte Is The Weirdest (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4941553)


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Charlotte isn't for everybody. The person who wrote that is probably from a much larger city, probably in the Northeast, and was simply underwhelmed and in culture shock in Charlotte. It happens when people move from a large city to a much smaller one without really being prepared for the lifestyle and culture differences. It's kind of like OKC. If you are from somewhere Woodward, OK it feels like you've hit the big city but if you are from somewhere like Charlotte or Dallas it can feel like you've moved to a small town. It's all about perspective.

Charlotte isn't for everybody. The person who wrote that is probably from a much larger city, probably in the Northeast, and was simply underwhelmed and in culture shock in Charlotte. It happens when people move from a large city to a much smaller one without really being prepared for the lifestyle and culture differences. It's kind of like OKC. If you are from somewhere Woodward, OK it feels like you've hit the big city but if you are from somewhere like Charlotte or Dallas it can feel like you've moved to a small town. It's all about perspective.

This is why I am not a big believer in culture shock, at least not for U.S. residents moving from one part of the country to another, or to different cities. Cultural adjustment? Yes. Culture shock? You want real culture shock, move to an eastern European country and then come back and complain about being in a smaller U.S. city. People in the U.S. by and large have demonstrated that they are either unwilling to prepare for a cultural adjustment in another city or have grown so accustomed to their way of life in their locale that when they are plucked away to some place else, they find they cannot establish or emulate there way of life in a new town.

It may come off as culture shock, but it really isn't. People have to be willing to brace themselves for change when they move to cities of different sizes or states in other parts of the country.

And now for an interesting take on Charlotte. Hmmm...

15 Reasons Why Charlotte Is The Weirdest (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4941553)

Oddly enough, sounds a lot like OKC. Just replace banks with oil companies and Elevation with LifeChurch.

Except, of course, we're just not as cool as them.

Charlotte isn't for everybody. The person who wrote that is probably from a much larger city, probably in the Northeast, and was simply underwhelmed and in culture shock in Charlotte. It happens when people move from a large city to a much smaller one without really being prepared for the lifestyle and culture differences. It's kind of like OKC. If you are from somewhere Woodward, OK it feels like you've hit the big city but if you are from somewhere like Charlotte or Dallas it can feel like you've moved to a small town. It's all about perspective.

Somewhere like Charlotte or Dallas? Lol

Have you been down to Dallas yet?

Oddly enough, sounds a lot like OKC. Just replace banks with oil companies and Elevation with LifeChurch.

Except, of course, we're just not as cool as them.

I wouldn't say Charlotte is "cooler" than OKC, just larger and roughly 20 or so years ahead in development. They are also in a better climate if that is something that matters. Charlotte doesn't get a lot of praise from people from Bos-Wash or the West Coast. It lacks the "cool" factor that Austin is known for. It is however a large enough city that it offers more options and personally, I liked the transient feel that the writer of that article dislikes.

Oddly enough, sounds a lot like OKC. Just replace banks with oil companies and Elevation with LifeChurch.

Except, of course, we're just not as cool as them.

There are definitely a few parallels, but you are right, banks are better than oil companies and we would never be lucky enough to have an upscale mega church as awesome as Elevation. Life just pales in comparison in nearly every way. It's just another example of developers in OKC making an elaborate proposal and under delivering at an unprecedented level... I mean, life church even sold out and gave its coffee shop space to the Starbucks mega chain, Elevation uses locally roasted coffee. Who does that? (Other then in OKC).


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Charlotte's downtown gentrification is 20-25 years ahead of OKC's. They are larger city so they have a much greater range of amenities from better grocery stores to upscale shopping. NC has much more sensible liquor laws. Their climate is more stable and their severe weather is much more manageable. They are an older city so they have more history, but like OKC they destroyed more than their share in urban renewal. Its a more diverse, transient city which can be good or bad depending on your preference. Those are facts about Charlotte. Everything else a matter of personal preference.

Just because you are a larger city, doesn't mean you will have better amenities.

Just because you are a larger city, doesn't mean you will have better amenities.

True, Detroit is larger than Seattle but we all know which is the better city. Charlotte though, like Dallas, is currently in a league that's beyond direct comparison with OKC. That's all I'll say about it.

If we looked at each city currently as it is and with no expectations, then yes. However with the growth and success that OKC has been having, there is no reason to say OKC won't be the next great city in the US and experience and Austin type boom. No warning came for Charlotte or Austin and they boomed and surpassed way past predictions.

I'm no climatologist, but I'm pretty sure that OKC is MAYBE a couple degrees warmer than Charlotte throughout the year. It's hardly different enough to say that Charlotte has a better or more stable climate. Charlotte definitely has less severe weather, but I would say the actual climates are about as similar as it can get.

Also I just want to add that, while I know everyone has certain things that they desire, I don't understand how OKC's lack of grocery stores or upscale shopping is enough to warrant constant criticism as one of your (or anyone's) biggest negatives about a city. Unless you are living the lifestyle of a teenager from "Laguna Beach", there is no way that a lack of upscale shopping (or any shopping) impacts your daily quality of life in any noticeable way. Grocery stores are a little different, but even if you're getting your groceries at Walmart/Target you're still purchasing healthy edible food. You may not be getting all the fresh organic brands that you want, but you're still able to buy pretty much anything you need. Of course I'm also barely out of college, so my culinary skills are about as bad as it gets! :tongue:

PWitty, I agree with most of your post. In terms of climate, I am mostly talking about severe weather but also rainfall. Charlotte gets about 5 in more per year but that 5 inches is enough to go from scrubby oaks and cedars to 100 ft tall pines and maples. Oklahoma has its own beauty though, especially out west of the city in the late spring when the wildflowers are in bloom. Severe weather in Oklahoma is a pretty big deal and hopefully 2014 is a little more moderate than 2013 was. I also agree that lack of upscale shopping isn't really an issue or a negative worth constantly complaining about. With Von Maur and possibly H&M coming to town, any complaints about OKC not having upscale retail appropriate for a city its size may be soon obsolete. Grocery stores on the other hand are a different story. That problem could be fixed very easily simply by Homeland being bought by a company that actually cares. I also believe a time is coming though when that will no longer be an issue in OKC but have no idea how long it will be.

Charlotte has the Atlantic Ocean 180 miles away while OKC is 500 miles from the Gulf. That has a big impact on the local climate and types of trees and plants that grow in North Carolina compared to Oklahoma. As you said average rainfall is not that much different with OKC averaging 36 in. and Charlotte averaging 42 in. about the same as Tulsa and eastern part of the state. Both are hot and humid though Charlotte seems to not have as many prolonged dry days in July-August as OKC usually does, as they get more pop up storms in the summer (like the rest of the southeast).

A big difference is the farther east you go, the more reliable rainfall is and the closer you are to your annual average in any given year. In Oklahoma its feast or famine with rainfall. In North Carolina the rain comes in smaller amounts but more often and is pretty consistent throughout the year. The extended dry spells in July and August I am sure are very hard on a lot of trees and plants and that's why you don't see certain stuff until you get to at least central Arkansas.

PWitty, I agree with most of your post. In terms of climate, I am mostly talking about severe weather but also rainfall. Charlotte gets about 5 in more per year but that 5 inches is enough to go from scrubby oaks and cedars to 100 ft tall pines and maples. Oklahoma has its own beauty though, especially out west of the city in the late spring when the wildflowers are in bloom. Severe weather in Oklahoma is a pretty big deal and hopefully 2014 is a little more moderate than 2013 was. I also agree that lack of upscale shopping isn't really an issue or a negative worth constantly complaining about. With Von Maur and possibly H&M coming to town, any complaints about OKC not having upscale retail appropriate for a city its size may be soon obsolete. Grocery stores on the other hand are a different story. That problem could be fixed very easily simply by Homeland being bought by a company that actually cares. I also believe a time is coming though when that will no longer be an issue in OKC but have no idea how long it will be.

Oklahoma ice storms also take its toll on soft and large trees. Hard clay undersoil also limits root growth and roots grow down to water.

And btw, H&M is not an upscale retailer. It is a great chain, and one we should have, but the prices are very, very affordable and stores are attractive, but not "upscale". It is a cool euro store and would be a great get if we land one here.

And btw, H&M is not an upscale retailer. It is a great chain, and one we should have, but the prices are very, very affordable and stores are attractive, but not "upscale". It is a cool euro store and would be a great get if we land one here.

Some people I've met don't really understand the difference between trendy, mid-market and upscale. It's kind of funny seeing people here refer to Kroger as an upscale, snooty grocery store. Kroger isn't referred to as such in any market that actually has their stores. It is however a decent grocery store and is larger and significantly nicer than all but a few stores in the OKC metro. Their prices are right in line with Homeland for anybody who isn't familiar. Same deal with Trader Joe's. As for H&M, it is decidedly midrange yet trendy. It will be a huge deal if they open in OKC and will show that this market can get the trendy stores. Just because a store is trendy doesn't mean its upscale and I think as OKC continues to grow and gets some of the retail it should already have, more people will realize that.

Many people in OKC, from my experience, tend to refer to anything above Wal-Mart as being "upscale." .

Words cannot even begin to describe how dumbfounded I am. Please, find me a single person that considers anything above Walmart to be "upscale". You are truly your own worst enemy.

Words cannot even begin to describe how dumbfounded I am. Please, find me a single person that considers anything above Walmart to be "upscale". You are truly your own worst enemy.

So, Target is upscale?

So, Target is upscale?

It's not Target, its Tar-ghey

So, Target is upscale?Target is Upscale compared to Walmart. In the world of super stores, I would say Target is nicer part of them.

If anyone here has ever been to a Wegmans, you wouldn't want any other grocery store but that one.

If anyone here has ever been to a Wegmans, you wouldn't want any other grocery store but that one.

Wegmans is awesome but I find it to be completely overwhelming (and pretty expensive). That might actually be a store that offers too much IMO.

Target is Upscale compared to Walmart. In the world of super stores, I would say Target is nicer part of them.

Me too, but the last word I would use to describe Target is upscale.

Some people I've met don't really understand the difference between trendy, mid-market and upscale. It's kind of funny seeing people here refer to Kroger as an upscale, snooty grocery store. Kroger isn't referred to as such in any market that actually has their stores. It is however a decent grocery store and is larger and significantly nicer than all but a few stores in the OKC metro. Their prices are right in line with Homeland for anybody who isn't familiar. Same deal with Trader Joe's. As for H&M, it is decidedly midrange yet trendy. It will be a huge deal if they open in OKC and will show that this market can get the trendy stores. Just because a store is trendy doesn't mean its upscale and I think as OKC continues to grow and gets some of the retail it should already have, more people will realize that.

Some in OKC might be shocked to know that many consider Krogers to be competitive with Wal Mart in pricing.


"Best budget grocery shopping: Kroger vs. Wal-Mart"


Cheapism.com sets out to compare grocery stores Kroger and Walmart with an objective to name the better store.

Budgeting and savings: Tips and planner advice to save money - MSN Money (http://money.msn.com/budgeting-savings/)

Wegmans is awesome but I find it to be completely overwhelming (and pretty expensive). That might actually be a store that offers too much IMO.

Just the fresh produce section alone is worth the trip. You are right -- the stores are enormous, but everything is top rate. Wegmans is the grocery store everyone has is mind when they aren't quite sure what to make for dinner so they make a trip to the store for some ideas. In many cases, you can just walk out of there with your entire meal (delicious, healthy sides included) already prepared.

Words cannot even begin to describe how dumbfounded I am. Please, find me a single person that considers anything above Walmart to be "upscale". You are truly your own worst enemy.
Walmart is "upscale" to the dollar store crowd.....


Some in OKC might be shocked to know that many consider Krogers to be competitive with Wal Mart in pricing.


"Best budget grocery shopping: Kroger vs. Wal-Mart"


Cheapism.com sets out to compare grocery stores Kroger and Walmart with an objective to name the better store.

Budgeting and savings: Tips and planner advice to save money - MSN Money (http://money.msn.com/budgeting-savings/)
We find the prices to be comparable between King Soopers (Kroger owned) and Walmart, some variations in prices and neither is consistently cheaper. We shop at King Soopers probably 90% of the time. We go to WMNH, Albertson's or Safeway to get items that King Soopers doesn't have, we do miss HEB. King Soopers is a little higher than HEB except on Blue Bell ice cream, they are about double the price of HEB but I think that has more to do with distribution cost differences between Central Texas and Colorado. Blue Bell is still building out their plant and distribution here.

One thing we have that is definitely better than Charlotte...
m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5038668


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why do we have to be better than someone? I swear there is a serious inferiority complex in this town.

I guarantee no one is talking about Oklahoma City outside of Tulsa and maybe Wichita..

I moved here from a larger metro area on the east coast and it is definitely different. you love it or hate it and with some honesty were about 20 years behind the rest of the country in cultural and civic development. Let it be, no one is 'better' or 'worse' were just okc.

why do we have to be better than someone? I swear there is a serious inferiority complex in this town.

I guarantee no one is talking about Oklahoma City outside of Tulsa and maybe Wichita..

I moved here from a larger metro area on the east coast and it is definitely different. you love it or hate it and with some honesty were about 20 years behind the rest of the country in cultural and civic development. Let it be, no one is 'better' or 'worse' were just okc.

Yes, so far behind. We're the worst in all the land.

OKC may be 20 years behind Charlotte, but we are significantly ahead of Augusta, Tallahassee, and Columbia, SC. In some ways OKC is ahead of Jacksonville, though we are behind them in other ways. Same with Birmingham.

Drawing comparisons is healthy for cities -- I don't see that as an inferiority complex. Our own MAPS brand is in fact a reaction to the quality of life found in other places. Therefore it's good from time to time to look around and see what others are doing and to incorporate some of those ideas if they are desirable and workable. This thread is not about who is "better" than OKC, or how many years some other place is ahead developmentally; it's more about defining who our peers are. Naturally, people want to discuss related things such as development and retail here and in other places.

OKC may be 20 years behind Charlotte

Wow, is this a new concept you've just come up with? I've never read anything anything remotely similar from you before.:beaten_fi

Wow, is this a new concept you've just come up with? I've never read anything anything remotely similar from you before.:beaten_fi
Yes, apparently living in OKC for some people is like being sentenced to Siberia. The vast majority of people I know are very happy in OKC/Oklahoma. Those that aren't probably need to move on to their place of nirvana.

No one is talking about OKC.

"Denver, San Antonio, Charlotte, Nashville, Oklahoma City, Dallas, Phoenix, Seattle saw population growth more than 1.5% 2Xs national average" - Richard Florida (@Richard_Florida)

why do we have to be better than someone? I swear there is a serious inferiority complex in this town.

I guarantee no one is talking about Oklahoma City outside of Tulsa and maybe Wichita..

I moved here from a larger metro area on the east coast and it is definitely different. you love it or hate it and with some honesty were about 20 years behind the rest of the country in cultural and civic development. Let it be, no one is 'better' or 'worse' were just okc.

That's a pretty lofty guarantee. Can you back that up?

That's a pretty lofty guarantee. Can you back that up?

Maybe jonathan knows everyone who doesn't live in OKC, Tulsa, and Wichita and monitors all of their conversations? :)

Maybe jonathan knows everyone who doesn't live in OKC, Tulsa, and Wichita and monitors all of their conversations? :)

this.

But let's be honest here this thread has undertones of who is better. I'm just pointing out the obvious and when you get down to it were not on anyone's radar when you do these metropolitan comparisons. The whole thing comes off as sad.

this.

But let's be honest here this thread has undertones of who is better. I'm just pointing out the obvious and when you get down to it were not on anyone's radar when you do these metropolitan comparisons. The whole thing comes off as sad.
Actually that isn't being honest and OKC has been on numerous radar screens in the last few years. Maybe you are just not recognizing what has been happening.

I compare OKC and other cities because I like comparing and contrasting things. It has nothing to do with an inferiority complex; we can learn from many similar sized cities and make a better OKC. If they fail, that's something we can learn not to do. If they succeed, that's something we could possibly try in the future.

I'm not going to comment on the misapplied cliche of OKCians having an inferiority complex as I haven't been following this thread closely enough to pick up on the "who is better" undertone.

Actually that isn't being honest and OKC has been on numerous radar screens in the last few years. Maybe you are just not recognizing what has been happening.

I just skimmed through the thread and just joined the board a few weeks ago. But you have to be kidding a little bit. I know this isn't a popular opinion and the group think here is strong but relenting opinions do exist.

I'm just writing this as a resident of 2 years transplanted from the east coast.. When people start talking about the next 'boom city' it sounds delusional.

I just skimmed through the thread and just joined the board a few weeks ago. But you have to be kidding a little bit. I know this isn't a popular opinion and the group think here is strong but relenting opinions do exist.

I'm just writing this as a resident of 2 years transplanted from the east coast.. When people start talking about the next 'boom city' it sounds delusional.

I foresee a lot of truly meaningful contributions coming from you in the future.

And you're right, all the national media that write about OKC are completely off base. I don't know why they didn't think to have you proofread their stories so that you could tell them how horribly wrong they are.

this.

But let's be honest here this thread has undertones of who is better. I'm just pointing out the obvious and when you get down to it were not on anyone's radar when you do these metropolitan comparisons. The whole thing comes off as sad.

Kansas City has routinely written about comparing itself to OKC in the past. But since you're from the east coast I'm sure nobody cares about Kansas City either.

I see where Jonathan is coming from. Civic boosters in a lot of cities and towns often tout their locale as being America's next boomtown and many times that boom never comes to fruition. Also, if it wasn't for the Thunder, there wouldn't be much talk about OKC on the coasts, period. Most people on the coasts view flyover country as simply one large monolithic wasteland. Kansas City suffers from many of the same misconceptions OKC does to people on the coasts even though the city is twice as large and more cosmopolitan. OKC is also not a boomtown and as someone who has lived in a true boomtown, it doesn't quite feel like one yet here. However, a 15% per decade growth rate is no small potatoes. In a decade, OKC has gone from the place that was at the bottom of every national list and the place everybody made fun of to actually getting positive media recognition. OKC residents have much to be proud of and given the city's economy more people are moving here. If this city continues on its present course, it could become a boomtown. Like anywhere else though, its not guaranteed until it happens but unlike a lot of places, it is possible here. So it's not as much delusion as it is people being impatient and getting ahead of themselves.

I was just in Dallas over the weekend and I was at Southlake at their town center thingie (lifestyle center) and I was just wondering why OKC didn't have anything remotely like that. I remember reading that they were going to try to make University Northpark like that but they feel sadly short of anything like that. It's like nobody cares about that sort of thing up here sadly. Hopefully, one day we will have something like that.

I just skimmed through the thread and just joined the board a few weeks ago. But you have to be kidding a little bit. I know this isn't a popular opinion and the group think here is strong but relenting opinions do exist.

I'm just writing this as a resident of 2 years transplanted from the east coast.. When people start talking about the next 'boom city' it sounds delusional.

I suggest you find the thread "OKC in the Press" so you can truly see what the nation thinks of us.

I was just in Dallas over the weekend and I was at Southlake at their town center thingie (lifestyle center) and I was just wondering why OKC didn't have anything remotely like that. I remember reading that they were going to try to make University Northpark like that but they feel sadly short of anything like that. It's like nobody cares about that sort of thing up here sadly. Hopefully, one day we will have something like that.

Sadly retail is still a huge sore spot for OKC. As much progress as has been made in downtown street life and living options, retail offerings and shopping centers in this city are still a joke for a city this size. Part of it can be blamed on the 2008 recession. There were multiple projects proposed and approved that if completed would have likely brought OKC more in line with other cities its size. Unfortunately they were all canned or greatly scaled down during the financial crisis, as is the case of UNP. Chisolm Creek could finally end up being the development that OKC has needed for more than a decade. Looking back at Tuscana and Quail Springs Village, I have an "I'll believe it when I see it" attitude regarding Chisolm Creek. It would be nice though if that development did actually happen as envisioned.

I suggest you find the thread "OKC in the Press" so you can truly see what the nation thinks of us.

come on now no one is attacking you just offering an outsiders view point. That thread was cool but monolithic if you look at what people in the city are posting to a city centric message board you're in the bubble.

Sadly the social politics are the most prominent thing most people think about Oklahoma City because of greater Oklahoma. I don't necessarily get that vibe around town but I don't seek it out either. It's just a lot more conservative than what I think the majority of the country probably feels comfortable with.