When I see these Southern or Southwest labels on Oklahoma, I seem them as geographical terms. For the cultural perspective, I agree with you in that Oklahoma was built on the principals of the settlers that came here, which came via the East/Northeast to open land to claim their stake. A majority of those were what, German? Irish? Italian? How many settlers came from the Southeast or Texas? The flair of Oklahoma is a montage of genetic lines that to me came from the Northeast but created their own traditions, quite like the Pilgrims came to America to not be persecuted. That's why Oklahoma will never identify with a certain region based on the styles of life you see today.

I agree that Oklahoma has a unique combination of influences from different parts of the country, but I would still say it, at least from OKC eastward, has more in common with the South than the Southwest. Is Oklahoma more similar in culture to Tennessee or Arizona? Both states are two states away in each direction. I would say definitely Tennessee. Other than Native American heritage, Oklahoma lacks real connection with the true Southwest in my opinion. I've lived in inland Southern California and have spent lots of time in Arizona through my childhood so I know the culture pretty well. Oklahoma is, in my opinion, SOUTHwest, vs Arizona and New Mexico being southWEST.

I agree that Oklahoma has a unique combination of influences from different parts of the country, but I would still say it, at least from OKC eastward, has more in common with the South than the Southwest. Is Oklahoma more similar in culture to Tennessee or Arizona? Both states are two states away in each direction. I would say definitely Tennessee. Other than Native American heritage, Oklahoma lacks real connection with the true Southwest in my opinion. I've lived in inland Southern California and have spent lots of time in Arizona through my childhood so I know the culture pretty well.

Oklahoma may be more similar to Tennessee than Arizona, but its relationship to both of those states is very little. So if OK relates to AZ at 10%, then it relates to Tennessee at 15%. So while Tennessee definitely shares more in common, it is still completely inaccurate to label OK as a remotely southern state. We have more in common with Iowa than we do with Louisiana and about as much with Iowa as we do with Arkansas.

Oklahoma may be more similar to Tennessee than Arizona, but its relationship to both of those states is very little. So if OK relates to AZ at 10%, then it relates to Tennessee at 15%. So while Tennessee definitely shares more in common, it is still completely inaccurate to label OK as a remotely southern state. We have more in common with Iowa than we do with Louisiana and about as much with Iowa as we do with Arkansas.

I would say more like 30-40% to Tennessee. There are cultural differences but Oklahoma does share significant cultural similarities with the upper South. I agree about Louisiana though. However, the western half of Arkansas is very similar to Oklahoma culturally, though its very different geographically.

This map, I believe is a good indicator of the boundaries.

4574

Tulsa should be higher but isn't because they have no plan, no direction, no development, nothing except decline. Declining cities lose points.

Tulsa isn't growing at the same rate as OKC but is not declining either. And there is quite a bit of development going on in the city, either planned or under construction.

I would say more like 30-40% to Tennessee. There are cultural differences but Oklahoma does share significant cultural similarities with the upper South. I agree about Louisiana though. However, the western half of Arkansas is very similar to Oklahoma culturally, though its very different geographically.

This map, I believe is a good indicator of the boundaries.

4574

Link?

Would be interested to see dates on that study, a description and definition of terms, and methodology.

This map, in conjunction with the map you posted is also important in dissecting the correlation of OK to other states:

4575

Finally, I have a hard time accepting that accents are a good method by which to determine cultural proximity in the US. Especially since people in our generation all sound very similar regardless of where they are from. The history of Oklahoma alone keeps it from having very much in common with the South...OK's history is more in-line with Arizona than it is Tennessee. Every Oklahoman can probably identify with the "Wild West" heritage because of the Native American heritage and the "Cowboys and Indians" trope. We can't identify in any way with the Confederacy.

Our culinary predilections are distinctly I-35 corridor: Meat and Potatoes...particularly Steak or Hamburgers...we're Ranchers/Cattle people...something specifically not southern. We're also very much adopting Chipotle/Spicy into our average menu, and that's a southwestern thing.

I just would like at least some sort of cultural comparisons or signifiers for where you're deriving your thoughts. So far it's been "This is what I think" without any sort of tangible reference as to why. I don't see a whole lot of southern culture that we favor...in fact, if something is comparable to the South, it is exactly that: Comparable, but not Alike.

Link?

Would be interested to see dates on that study, a description and definition of terms, and methodology.

This map, in conjunction with the map you posted is also important in dissecting the correlation of OK to other states:

4575

Finally, I have a hard time accepting that accents are a good method by which to determine cultural proximity in the US. Especially since people in our generation all sound very similar regardless of where they are from. The history of Oklahoma alone keeps it from having very much in common with the South...OK's history is more in-line with Arizona than it is Tennessee. Every Oklahoman can probably identify with the "Wild West" heritage because of the Native American heritage and the "Cowboys and Indians" trope. We can't identify in any way with the Confederacy.

Our culinary predilections are distinctly I-35 corridor: Meat and Potatoes...particularly Steak or Hamburgers...we're Ranchers/Cattle people...something specifically not southern. We're also very much adopting Chipotle/Spicy into our average menu, and that's a southwestern thing.

I just would like at least some sort of cultural comparisons or signifiers for where you're deriving your thoughts. So far it's been "This is what I think" without any sort of tangible reference as to why. I don't see a whole lot of southern culture that we favor...in fact, if something is comparable to the South, it is exactly that: Comparable, but not Alike. Oklahoma is not the deep South but considered the upper South. We have neighboring states of Arkansas and to the southeast Louisiana. Texas to the South as well. Our topography of growing magnolia trees, live oaks, crept myrtle are foliage and trees that grow in the South. Hell, Okies even drink sweet tea along with a diet very southern. Oklahoma is considered a state in the upper South according to "Southern Living". Oklahoma is "not" a midwestern state. Lesson 101 Geography!!

When I see these Southern or Southwest labels on Oklahoma, I seem them as geographical terms. For the cultural perspective, I agree with you in that Oklahoma was built on the principals of the settlers that came here, which came via the East/Northeast to open land to claim their stake. A majority of those were what, German? Irish? Italian? How many settlers came from the Southeast or Texas? The flair of Oklahoma is a montage of genetic lines that to me came from the Northeast but created their own traditions, quite like the Pilgrims came to America to not be persecuted. That's why Oklahoma will never identify with a certain region based on the styles of life you see today.

True. A lot of SE Oklahoma was indeed settled by Italians, while a lot of the first wave of Tulsa's oil barons were WASPs and Irish from NY and Chicago. The only real concentrated movement of southerners into OK were Native Americans and the slaves they brought with them.



Finally, I have a hard time accepting that accents are a good method by which to determine cultural proximity in the US. Especially since people in our generation all sound very similar regardless of where they are from. The history of Oklahoma alone keeps it from having very much in common with the South...OK's history is more in-line with Arizona than it is Tennessee. Every Oklahoman can probably identify with the "Wild West" heritage because of the Native American heritage and the "Cowboys and Indians" trope. We can't identify in any way with the Confederacy.

Our culinary predilections are distinctly I-35 corridor: Meat and Potatoes...particularly Steak or Hamburgers...we're Ranchers/Cattle people...something specifically not southern. We're also very much adopting Chipotle/Spicy into our average menu, and that's a southwestern thing.

I just would like at least some sort of cultural comparisons or signifiers for where you're deriving your thoughts. So far it's been "This is what I think" without any sort of tangible reference as to why. I don't see a whole lot of southern culture that we favor...in fact, if something is comparable to the South, it is exactly that: Comparable, but not Alike.

Never thought about it that way. I've noticed on my visits that most people in the south consume a ton of pork while eating just a fraction of the beef we eat here. Part of that is just the nature of our geography. We had miles of flat, treeless prairie that was perfect for cattle grazing compared to most of the SE. And our cuisine is definitely infused with a lot of southwest/Mexican influences. Fried jalapenos, tacos, guacamole, etc., you really don't see a lot of that deep in the south but everyone I know here eats this stuff almost daily.

I'll add that today's contemporary Oklahoma is definitely influenced by the south. But trust me, if you go to Atlanta or Nashville and ask where OK is, few will say in the Southeast. To them, its: no former confederate state+no SEC team=not southern. But that's fine with me. I frankly love our blend of cultures and influences here.

Tulsa isn't growing at the same rate as OKC but is not declining either. And there is quite a bit of development going on in the city, either planned or under construction.Tulsa is depressing and the majority of people I interact with when I am there, are cocky, stuck up, and have no clue how fast OKC is growing and why it is a million times the city Tulsa will ever be.

Also, please note, I am not trolling on Tulsa, just the past 10 times I've been there, esp. seeing Bcrhis comparing a few of Tulsa's districts, there is nothing at all special to them. The people I've spoken with are just stuck up and snobby. It is like a mega Edmond, to me.

Tulsa is depressing and the majority of people I interact with when I am there, are cocky, stuck up, and have no clue how fast OKC is growing and why it is a million times the city Tulsa will ever be.

I have met quite a few people who have moved from Tulsa to OKC, but haven't met a single person in the year I've lived here who moved or wanted to move to Tulsa.

Oklahoma is not the deep South but considered the upper South. We have neighboring states of Arkansas and to the southeast Louisiana. Texas to the South as well. Our topography of growing magnolia trees, live oaks, crept myrtle are foliage and trees that grow in the South. Hell, Okies even drink sweet tea along with a diet very southern. Oklahoma is considered a state in the upper South according to "Southern Living". Oklahoma is "not" a midwestern state. Lesson 101 Geography!!

Agree with this. Oklahoma is upper-South as opposed to deep South. There is a significant difference in the two cultures. Southern cuisine is probably the dominant cuisine here. Country music, our area's most popular genre, is rooted in the South. Tea is sweet by default. Oklahoma is the capital of the Bible Belt and Southern hospitality. Southern Baptist is the dominant religion here (it's not in the Southwest or the Midwest or even in Kansas). The only thing Oklahoma is really missing compared to the Southern states is its historical tie with the Confederacy and an SEC football team. Oklahoma wasn't a state during the time of the Civil War but if it was, I have little doubt it would have been a part of the Confederacy.

Oh, I mostly agree. I think they're ahead of us in most of those parameters, but not by that much. I just think that if I could choose which of the two cities I'd prefer to live in, it would be no contest. For me, having an NBA team trumps any natural beauty and slight increase in urbanization they have. That's why I rank them equally. And that's one of the reasons I rank some of the other cities below us. I think Omaha has a far better Bricktown-like area in their Old Market, and they've got better retail than we do, for the most part. But, the Thunder give us an advantage that's hard to top. If Jacksonville had a better or more loved NFL team, I'd rank them ahead of OKC for that reason ( and the beach), but they don't.

betts, some may have forgotten this from one year ago.

Lou. mayor visiting Oklahoma City, examining downtown revitalization | WHAS11.com Louisville (http://www.whas11.com/news/local/Mayor-OKC-visit--175255151.html)

Agree with this. Oklahoma is upper-South as opposed to deep South. There is a significant difference in the two cultures. Southern cuisine is probably the dominant cuisine here. Country music, our area's most popular genre, is rooted in the South. Tea is sweet by default. Oklahoma is the capital of the Bible Belt and Southern hospitality. Southern Baptist is the dominant religion here (it's not in the Southwest or the Midwest or even in Kansas). The only thing Oklahoma is really missing compared to the Southern states is its historical tie with the Confederacy and an SEC football team. Oklahoma wasn't a state during the time of the Civil War but if it was, I have little doubt it would have been a part of the Confederacy.

There's definitely an historical tie with the Confederacy. Indian Territory was very much part of the Confederacy and flew her flag. General Stand Watie, a Cherokee, was the very last Confederate general to surrender to the Union forces. There were about 125 Confederate troop engagements in present day Oklahoma.

Read about the Battle of Honey Springs, the largest and most important battle fought here at the Honey Springs Battlefield near Checotah Oklahoma. Just this year the Honey Springs Battlefield was made a part of the National Park Service, but the battlefield website is down because of the government shutdown. Phase one of a new $1 million, 6,000-square-foot visitors center and museum has been completed.

INFO:

Honey Springs Battlefield - National Park Service (http://www.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/68honey/68honey.htm)
Honey Springs | Oklahoma Historical Society (http://www.okhistory.org/sites/honeysprings)
The Battle of Honey Springs (http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/h/ho025.html)
Honey Springs - The Gettysburg of the West (http://www.exploresouthernhistory.com/honeysprings1.html)
Civil War Traveler: Oklahoma Battlefields (http://www.civilwartraveler.com/TRANS/OK/battlefields.html)
Oklahoma in the Civil War (http://oklahomainthecivilwar.blogspot.com/)
Battle of Honey Springs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Honey_Springs)
Honey Springs Battlefield Visitors Center | adgmcdonald.com (http://adgmcdonald.com/our-work/public/honey-springs-battlefield-visitors-center)
2013 Honey Springs Reenactment (http://www.okhistory.org/sites/hsb2013.php)

There's also the Cabin Creek Battlefield:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cabin_Creek
http://www.okhistory.org/sites/cabincreek
http://www.civilwar.org/civil-war-discovery-trail/sites/cabin-creek-battlefield.html

YouTube Video About Honey Springs:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-MK9bnirVQ

Okay, back to topic, but I couldn't let that one go unanswered. Do they teach Oklahoma history in school anymore?

Oklahoma is not the deep South but considered the upper South. We have neighboring states of Arkansas and to the southeast Louisiana. Texas to the South as well. Our topography of growing magnolia trees, live oaks, crept myrtle are foliage and trees that grow in the South. Hell, Okies even drink sweet tea along with a diet very southern. Oklahoma is considered a state in the upper South according to "Southern Living". Oklahoma is "not" a midwestern state. Lesson 101 Geography!!

Y'all are driving me insane. And btw, describing our TOPography by our TREES...I can't help but laugh. Y'all ever been to El Reno and further west?

This makes it pretty clear how confusing OK is. (https://www.google.com/search?q=United+States+Regions&sa=X&pws=0&biw=1126&bih=569&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=OppXUrzpN-nEyQHpwIDQDg&ved=0CCsQsAQ)

And these:

457645774578

And if the best you all got is Magnolia trees, and sweet tea (that is never served sweet, unless you ask...), then I think it's time to give up the fight.

We share no longstanding economic ties to the South
Our agriculture is distinctly Plains (which is closer to Midwest than South)
Our politics are different because, again, we share no longstanding economic ties with the South
Our weather is our own
Our history is distinct and without specific or major ties to any one part of the country
Our food is simply not Southern. (And that claim ought to be offensive to both Okies and to genuine Southern food)

Big Oil, which is the only reason this state is not in total obscurity, is also the biggest reason this state should never be considered the South or the Southwest, and why the only state with which Oklahoma has any genuine tie is Texas.

There's definitely an historical tie with the Confederacy. Indian Territory was very much part of the Confederacy and flew her flag. General Stand Watie, a Cherokee, was the very last Confederate general to surrender to the Union forces. There were about 125 Confederate troop engagements in present day Oklahoma.

Read about the Battle of Honey Springs, the largest and most important battle fought here at the Honey Springs Battlefield near Checotah Oklahoma. Just this year the Honey Springs Battlefield was made a part of the National Park Service, but the battlefield website is down because of the government shutdown. Phase one of a new $1 million, 6,000-square-foot visitors center and museum has been completed.

INFO:

Honey Springs Battlefield - National Park Service (http://www.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/68honey/68honey.htm)
Honey Springs | Oklahoma Historical Society (http://www.okhistory.org/sites/honeysprings)
The Battle of Honey Springs (http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/h/ho025.html)
Honey Springs - The Gettysburg of the West (http://www.exploresouthernhistory.com/honeysprings1.html)
Civil War Traveler: Oklahoma Battlefields (http://www.civilwartraveler.com/TRANS/OK/battlefields.html)
Oklahoma in the Civil War (http://oklahomainthecivilwar.blogspot.com/)
Battle of Honey Springs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Honey_Springs)
Honey Springs Battlefield Visitors Center | adgmcdonald.com (http://adgmcdonald.com/our-work/public/honey-springs-battlefield-visitors-center)
2013 Honey Springs Reenactment (http://www.okhistory.org/sites/hsb2013.php)

There's also the Cabin Creek Battlefield:

Battle of Cabin Creek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cabin_Creek)
Cabin Creek Battlefield | Oklahoma Historical Society (http://www.okhistory.org/sites/cabincreek)
Cabin Creek Battlefield (http://www.civilwar.org/civil-war-discovery-trail/sites/cabin-creek-battlefield.html)

YouTube Video About Honey Springs:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-MK9bnirVQ

Okay, back to topic, but I couldn't let that one go unanswered. Do they teach Oklahoma history in school anymore?

There is a book titled Rifles for Watie about this. Also, there is a okctalk member named riflesforwatie.

I would say more like 30-40% to Tennessee. There are cultural differences but Oklahoma does share significant cultural similarities with the upper South. I agree about Louisiana though. However, the western half of Arkansas is very similar to Oklahoma culturally, though its very different geographically.

This map, I believe is a good indicator of the boundaries.

4574

Have you been to the Ouachitas and Ozarks? Eastern Oklahoma and western Arkansas share these geographic regions and look very similar.

Have you been to the Ouachitas and Ozarks? Eastern Oklahoma and western Arkansas share these geographic regions and look very similar.

Agreed. The Ozarks taper off though pretty quickly once you cross into Oklahoma from Arkansas. The Ouachitas are probably the most beautiful part of Oklahoma but they are sparsely populated. That part of the state reminds me a lot of north Georgia.

Louisville also does a great job of maintaining streetwalls even with their garages...something we aren't as good at doing here.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MYlZazxeE4M/UkZ9Ij7iEmI/AAAAAAAE3_A/WtOKtSOkzMk/w751-h563-no/IMG_20130927_170334.jpg

Yeah, streetwalls are important for maintaining a feel of density and urbanity. I would love to see more of the surface parking in OKC replaced with garages that have retail/restaurants on the bottom floor. I personally don't see a need for surface parking downtown when the parking issues can be solved in other ways.

Tulsa is depressing and the majority of people I interact with when I am there, are cocky, stuck up, and have no clue how fast OKC is growing and why it is a million times the city Tulsa will ever be.

Also, please note, I am not trolling on Tulsa, just the past 10 times I've been there, esp. seeing Bcrhis comparing a few of Tulsa's districts, there is nothing at all special to them. The people I've spoken with are just stuck up and snobby. It is like a mega Edmond, to me.

Maybe it's you Panda. I go there quite often for live music and people are always friendly and welcoming. Nice town.

Maybe it's you Panda. I go there quite often for live music and people are always friendly and welcoming. Nice town.

One thing that is indisputable is that Tulsa is able to get much better live music acts than OKC is, especially the more indie stuff. Comparing urban districts is subjective and any edge Tulsa may have had gets smaller every year. Tulsa also has better retail. Hopefully that changes in the near future. The momentum though is all on OKC's side.

Maybe it's you Panda. I go there quite often for live music and people are always friendly and welcoming. Nice town.They're friendly, but if you mention anything about OKC, it gets bad, real fast. I would actually like Tulsa to do well, I just want OKC to be better. OKC is and needs to be the top dog in the state.

I would say more like 30-40% to Tennessee. There are cultural differences but Oklahoma does share significant cultural similarities with the upper South. I agree about Louisiana though. However, the western half of Arkansas is very similar to Oklahoma culturally, though its very different geographically.

This map, I believe is a good indicator of the boundaries.

4574

I know I'm a little late to the party but I think there are much better things you can look at when comparing cultural similarities than accents, especially when trying to use this map. I didn't have to look at it for more than 5 seconds before I saw that it has West Virginia and Northern Virginia color coded the same, and those two areas are about as big of polar opposites as you're going to get when comparing cultures.

I also very much agree with Teo's point on the type of food OK consumes when compared to the rest of the South. I'm from Kansas (KC) and when I was in OKC I felt like I was still back home (food selection wise) because all of the dining options are the same. I spent a summer in NW Louisiana as an intern a couple years back, and even that far north all anybody ever talked about eating was crawfish and seafood. Much different than the steak and potatoes type of food that I was used to back home because of the proximity to the gulf.

I also don't know why so many people use country music as a major tie to the south. Yes, country music did originate in the south and is still popular there. But I would argue that the Hip Hop scene is just as big if not bigger than country in the south, and the hip-hop scene doesn't seem particularly big in any part of OK. Country music is the most popular style of music in KS too but I don't hear anyone in KS trying to say that we're a southern state.

Just my $0.02, but being in OK doesn't feel any different than being back home in KS except for the Native-American/Western heritage. That would make me group OK in with TX and the SW long before I grouped them in with the true south.

They're friendly, but if you mention anything about OKC, it gets bad, real fast. I would actually like Tulsa to do well, I just want OKC to be better. OKC is and needs to be the top dog in the state.

Yeah, Tulsans seem to have a hatred for OKC that is irrational and they regurgitate stereotypes that were true 20 years ago to try to make Tulsa appear as above OKC. Despite this, I have met so many people from Tulsa who are now living in OKC. Most of them that I know really like it and talk about how Tulsa doesn't have as much going on. I really hope OKC is able to catch up to and surpass Tulsa in terms of retail development in the near future. I can see Tulsa as always being the live music capital of the state though unless OKC gets with the program and revitalizes the Tower Theater. Austin is indisputably the live music capital of Texas even though San Antonio, Houston, and Dallas are much larger.

I know I'm a little late to the party but I think there are much better things you can look at when comparing cultural similarities than accents, especially when trying to use this map. I didn't have to look at it for more than 5 seconds before I saw that it has West Virginia and Northern Virginia color coded the same, and those two areas are about as big of polar opposites as you're going to get when comparing cultures.

I also very much agree with Teo's point on the type of food OK consumes when compared to the rest of the South. I'm from Kansas (KC) and when I was in OKC I felt like I was still back home (food selection wise) because all of the dining options are the same. I spent a summer in NW Louisiana as an intern a couple years back, and even that far north all anybody ever talked about eating was crawfish and seafood. Much different than the steak and potatoes type of food that I was used to back home because of the proximity to the gulf.

I also don't know why so many people use country music as a major tie to the south. Yes, country music did originate in the south and is still popular there. But I would argue that the Hip Hop scene is just as big if not bigger than country in the south, and the hip-hop scene doesn't seem particularly big in any part of OK. Country music is the most popular style of music in KS too but I don't hear anyone in KS trying to say that we're a southern state.

Just my $0.02, but being in OK doesn't feel any different than being back home in KS except for the Native-American/Western heritage. That would make me group OK in with TX and the SW long before I grouped them in with the true south.

Interesting. I have a friend living in Kansas and he said whenever he comes to visit me in Oklahoma that it feels notably and distinctly different than KS.

Interesting. I have a friend living in Kansas and he said whenever he comes to visit me in Oklahoma that it feels notably and distinctly different than KS.

Hmm that's interesting. What part of KS is he from? I don't know if it would matter, but being in the KS burbs of KC honestly doesn't feel any different than being in North OKC/Edmond.

Hmm that's interesting. What part of KS is he from? I don't know if it would matter, but being in the KS burbs of KC honestly doesn't feel any different than being in North OKC/Edmond.

Well, he's originally from MN, but he's living in Lawrence. The only part of OK he has seen is 35 down to Norman where he's stayed for a few days. It could've just been the neighborhoods he's seen but I know he at least feels strongly on this between a Norman & Lawrence comparison.

I have always considered Kansas City on a higher level than OKC and not really a peer. This article is interesting as is the metrics they use. It's not how most people would compare the mentioned cities.

Kansas City is with Charlotte, Indianapolis, Tampa, Denver, St. Louis, etc. OKC is with Tulsa, Memphis, Wichita, Omaha, Jacksonville, and Louisville.

As a native of OKC who has lived in Kansas City for the past 11 years... There is no way Kansas City is on a higher level than OKC unless you value violent crime and poor service. And it's noticeably more expensive to live here than in OKC.

As a native of OKC who has lived in Kansas City for the past 11 years... There is no way Kansas City is on a higher level than OKC unless you value violent crime and poor service. And it's noticeably more expensive to live here than in OKC.

I think it depends on what you are looking for in a place. In terms of urban metrics, KC wins easily in virtually every category. When it comes to actual quality of life and raising a family, the match gets much closer, especially if you don't require big city amenities.

I think it depends on what you are looking for in a place. In terms of urban metrics, KC wins easily in virtually every category. When it comes to actual quality of life and raising a family, the match gets much closer, especially if you don't require big city amenities.

I'm not familiar enough with KC to be sure but I would tend to trust the opinion of someone who has lived there for the last 11 years.

As a person from the Midwest and lived 6 years in Mississippi I can tell oklahoma is in no ways the Midwesmparisons. Also In someways I find that people here acts more deep.south than Mississippi

I think it depends on what you are looking for in a place. In terms of urban metrics, KC wins easily in virtually every category. When it comes to actual quality of life and raising a family, the match gets much closer, especially if you don't require big city amenities.

KC does have a much more urban feel to it's downtown, but its population is also pretty sprawled out. It's not like you're going to feel like you're in a bustling urban area when you're in downtown KC. The KC metro area is actually larger, area wise, than the OKC metro which leads to their population densities being more similar than you would think. Yes it does come in at just over 2 million, but a large majority of those are cities/suburbs on the KS side of the metro and as many have pointed out the KS suburbs almost operate as an entity of their own with the job competition.

I'll also add that it seems like people judge cities based on their skylines far too much. Just because a place has a nice developed skyline or a built up core doesn't mean that the city as a whole is better or offers more than a city that doesn't. In some places that comparison holds true, but that is not always the case. It is one thing if you're only comparing the urban feel of a city, but I see too many people that will say one city is better than another overall and their only reasoning is because one is more urban.

I found this great video article on Louisville and some of the developments happening there.

Louisville's Hip Emerging Scene | Video - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/video/louisvilles-hip-emerging-scene-15198876)

Lawrence and Norman feel very different. Lawrence is liberal college town feel while Norman is pretty conservative. KC burbs KS and OKC/Edmond not so much difference. I'd say OK has lot more in common with KS than it does with the Deep South.

Interesting. I have a friend living in Kansas and he said whenever he comes to visit me in Oklahoma that it feels notably and distinctly different than KS.

I lived in Kansas for the last two years and I couldn't think of a place more like Oklahoma.

While Lawrence has a little different feel, it's not drastically different. Norman and Lawrence have a lot of similarities. Side question, am I the only one not that impressed with KU's campus? The hills are great, but the buildings and overall layout did not strike me as near as beautiful as OU's campus.

Lawrence has three things that IMO are better than Norman: 1) a full river running through the city with bike/jogging paths, 2) a much larger and more vibrant downtown area along Mass St including several new urban loft developments and 3) the hills around the KU campus. Otherwise they are pretty similar with Norman being closer to a large city so it has more suburban/bedroom community-type growth. Lawrence doesn't have a Campus Corner right next to campus, and it doesn't have the same classic layout and large number of pretty buildings as OU does.

Other than that Kansas geographically is fairly similar with rainfall increasing as you go east from treeless plains to forested hills. Oklahoma has more varied topography though with desert mountains like the Wichitas and forested mountains like the Ouachitas, and far more large lakes. And of course OKC and Tulsa are larger cities than Wichita if you don't count the KC metro due to it being split into two states. Kansas also has a completely different history with settlements long before any in Oklahoma, and more of a farming-based economy while Oklahoma has more ranching and is dominated by the energy industry.

Lawrence has three things that IMO are better than Norman: 1) a full river running through the city with bike/jogging paths, 2) a much larger and more vibrant downtown area along Mass St including several new urban loft developments and 3) the hills around the KU campus. Otherwise they are pretty similar with Norman being closer to a large city so it has more suburban/bedroom community-type growth. Lawrence doesn't have a Campus Corner right next to campus, and it doesn't have the same classic layout and large number of pretty buildings as OU does.

Other than that Kansas geographically is fairly similar with rainfall increasing as you go east from treeless plains to forested hills. Oklahoma has more varied topography though with desert mountains like the Wichitas and forested mountains like the Ouachitas, and far more large lakes. And of course OKC and Tulsa are larger cities than Wichita if you don't count the KC metro due to it being split into two states. Kansas also has a completely different history with settlements long before any in Oklahoma, and more of a farming-based economy while Oklahoma has more ranching and is dominated by the energy industry.

How does their river and biking/jogging paths compare to our river and biking/jogging paths?

I lived in Kansas for the last two years and I couldn't think of a place more like Oklahoma.

While Lawrence has a little different feel, it's not drastically different. Norman and Lawrence have a lot of similarities. Side question, am I the only one not that impressed with KU's campus? The hills are great, but the buildings and overall layout did not strike me as near as beautiful as OU's campus.

I make a point to visit college campuses whenever I'm near one. The University of Virginia and Berkley top my list of beautiful public universities. But OU, in my opinion, ranks up there as one of the more beautiful public universities.

I lived in Kansas for the last two years and I couldn't think of a place more like Oklahoma.

While Lawrence has a little different feel, it's not drastically different. Norman and Lawrence have a lot of similarities. Side question, am I the only one not that impressed with KU's campus? The hills are great, but the buildings and overall layout did not strike me as near as beautiful as OU's campus.

I've never been to Norman so I can't honestly compare the two, but Lawrence is a pretty gorgeous campus. It's beauty really comes out in the late summer/early fall and the early spring seasons when all the trees start blooming and the sun is shining and the fountains are on, at least up on main campus. AFH is all that is needed to make the SW part of campus beautiful yearround. :cool: I haven't been to a lot of other campuses so I can't speak with certainty, but Jay Bilas and the Gameday crew always harp on and on about the KU campus when they're here in the winter and I figure they've been to quite a few college campuses.

As for the biking/running trails down by the river, I can't really comment. Most students won't ever go north of the river from downtown because Mass St., campus, and all the nice/new apartments or dorms are all south of that. I honestly didn't even know there was biking/running trails down there, but then again I am more of a KU Student Rec guy :p

How does their river and biking/jogging paths compare to our river and biking/jogging paths?

In OKC? Pretty similar though the Kansas River is much more scenic than the industrial and riprap-lined Oklahoma River. Norman doesn't have anything like this along the Canadian, though there are long range plans to build a trail along Imhoff Creek. Tulsa has one of the better river trail systems in the region.

Lawrence has three things that IMO are better than Norman: 1) a full river running through the city with bike/jogging paths, 2) a much larger and more vibrant downtown area along Mass St including several new urban loft developments and 3) the hills around the KU campus. Otherwise they are pretty similar with Norman being closer to a large city so it has more suburban/bedroom community-type growth. Lawrence doesn't have a Campus Corner right next to campus, and it doesn't have the same classic layout and large number of pretty buildings as OU does.

Being an OK-native but having previously lived in Lawrence, KS for 8 years, I agree with your points. In general I find Lawrence to a bit more aesthetically pleasing than Norman, but that's just a personal preference. The river is a big asset if you like to be outdoors, and they are currently planning to extend downtown Lawrence north of the river with a large riverfront development in the area behind Johnny's Tavern. Downtown Lawrence has also had some great developments over the past 6 or 7 years, and there are a number of 4+ stories in the works now as well, so from an urban standpoint I think it is a slightly more impressive town as well. The more jarring difference between the two, to me, is that Lawrence is very liberal and has a lot more "weird" types, while Norman is conservative and feels very suburban to me. Overall, though, I think Norman has a significantly stronger economy, is much more affordable (median home price of $160k in Norman compared to $220k in Lawrence), and is obviously a lot closer to OKC than Lawrence is to KC. Those are huge assets for the overall health / vibrancy of the town.

Oklahoma is the southern plains .. it has some of the culture of the southwest and some of the south .. but it doesn't fit with either .

I couldn't agree more with this. When I was in high school, we moved from Moore to Pine Bluff, Arkansas for a short time. Talk about culture shock! Having lived in OKC just about all my life, I had never been exposed to true southern culture, and it took quite a while to get used to.
Years later, I became a truck driver and got to travel the country and experience the a lot of the differing cultures of our country. From my experience, and this is just my personal opinion, so you can take it, leave it, or line your bird cage with it, but Oklahoma seems to be to me, a combination of all of those cultures (I think this is probably a side effect from all the land runs of the late 1800's.....yes it still effects us today, because quite a few folks can still trace their families back to when the first one arrived for one of the runs) and at the same time, none of them, and this really makes our state quite unique.

I agree. In fact, this is one of the ways Louisville's downtown is simply nicer. It isn't that there is a ton more there to see and do. They've just maintained it better. It is a very, very pleasant walk. Incredibly wide sidewalks, lots of outdoor seating, and a nice streetwall. It really does it for them. Kudos to the leadership there for having that vision.

I completely agree. The thread about Russell Claus leaving OKC and his contributions to placemaking got me thinking about Louisville. Downtown Louisville is simply a much nicer experience than OKC is currently, and that's because the city simply "gets" walkability and it "gets" placemaking. Just compare Louisville's 4th St Live to Lower Bricktown, and they didn't even have a canal to work with. OKC is just now starting to understand this and I hope the loss of Mr. Claus doesn't ruin it. Its going to take some time for OKC to get there but I think it can happen within 10 years as long as the city doesn't blow it. What Louisville really lacks, which is why they are behind OKC in terms of national visibility, is a national cheerleader like OKC's Mick Cornett.

I completely agree. The thread about Russell Claus leaving OKC and his contributions to placemaking got me thinking about Louisville. Downtown Louisville is simply a much nicer experience than OKC is currently, and that's because the city simply "gets" walkability and it "gets" placemaking. Just compare Louisville's 4th St Live to Lower Bricktown, and they didn't even have a canal to work with. OKC is just now starting to understand this and I hope the loss of Mr. Claus doesn't ruin it. Its going to take some time for OKC to get there but I think it can happen within 10 years as long as the city doesn't blow it. What Louisville really lacks, which is why they are behind OKC in terms of national visibility, is a national cheerleader like OKC's Mick Cornett.
I mentioned this previously but the Louisville leaders obviously thought they could learn something from OKC in October of last year.

Louisville should be allowed to control its destiny - Louisville - Business First (http://www.bizjournals.com/louisville/print-edition/2012/10/26/louisville-should-be-allowed-to.html?page=all)


A group of more than 100 business, government and civic leaders got an up-close view of the transformational power of a local option tax this week during a two-and-a-half-day visit to Oklahoma City.


When Louisville takes on important community projects such as Louisville Slugger Field and the KFC Yum! Center, they often are funded by bonds that will take years to pay off. Oklahoma City is doing great things without burdening future generations with the bill.

One thing that kind of dawned on me when I was talking to some of my buddies the other day was how impressive OKC's growth has been when you consider all the local competition it has for college grads. It has both Tulsa and Dallas within a short drive that give local college grads viable alternatives to live while still staying close to home. That's something that I'm not used to thinking about, because growing up around KC everyone just assumes that they are going to be staying in KC after graduation. The only other alternative to KC would be St. Louis, which even around KC has a bit of a stigma because of East St. Louis's crime reputation. There is always a handful of people who venture further off to the BIG cities (Chi most often, but also LA and NYC), but here we are less than a full year since our graduation and a lot of the people I know who moved off to those cities have already moved back to KC after realizing it wasn't as glamorous of a life as they had anticipated. But for the most part, almost everyone I knew from KU/KSU ended up staying in KC. There are quite a few engineering buddies of mine who ended up in Houston, but that is really the only other city where a lot of people moved.

I'm obviously not from OKC, but I've seen people mention how Dallas/Tulsa have drained local college graduates from the area in the past. It seems to me like OKC's progression and growth will only speed up as more and more local graduates continue to stay in OKC as it becomes a better place to live. I can't even imagine what the effect would be on Kansas City if Chicago was suddenly only 3 hours away and Kansas City had to compete for the local graduates.

I don't see Tulsa as being much of a factor today when it comes to stealing college grads away from OKC. If anything, OKC is draining talent away from Tulsa. Dallas and Austin are probably OKC's real competition. I can definitely understand somebody wanting to spend their twenties down there, especially Austin, over OKC.

I don't see Tulsa as being much of a factor today when it comes to stealing college grads away from OKC. If anything, OKC is training talent away from Tulsa. Dallas and Austin are probably OKC's real competition. I can definitely understand somebody wanting to spend their twenties down there, especially Austin, over OKC.

I know Tulsa's influence is pretty minimal currently, I guess in the present I am mainly referring to Dallas. There is just nothing even close to a Dallas anywhere around KC, so KC retains pretty much every regional college grad unless they are willing to travel quite a ways.

I would agree that Austin is a threat, but they're a threat to everyone not just OKC. They're also a bit further away than the general proximity I had in mind.

I know Tulsa's influence is pretty minimal currently, I guess in the present I am mainly referring to Dallas. There is just nothing even close to a Dallas anywhere around KC, so KC retains pretty much every regional college grad unless they are willing to travel quite a ways.

I would agree that Austin is a threat, but they're a threat to everyone not just OKC. They're also a bit further away than the general proximity I had in mind.

I can imagine Omaha also being competition somewhat for KC but I could be wrong. Kansas City though seems like its large enough, diverse enough, and has enough amenities that there is less of a need to move unless you just want to for the experience.

Many 20-somethings that I personally know, have expressed the want/"dream" of moving to Dallas and living a young professional life there. I understand why (DAL beats OKC in most categories). However, it always makes me sad. I know Dallas is leagues ahead of us, but I wish more young people in OKC wanted to be a part of the renaissance here. I try my personal best to encourage each of them to take part in the growth here in their current city and get involved because they will not only have a great place to live and grow, but they will have been a part of the start.


I have noticed that it is weirdly "cool" to bash OKC as a cowtown, even for locals that have lived here for up to the entirety of their lives. I often wonder if other cities (sans Detroit) experience this same oddity?

Many 20-somethings that I personally know, have expressed the want/"dream" of moving to Dallas and living a young professional life there. I understand why (DAL beats OKC in most categories). However, it always makes me sad. I know Dallas is leagues ahead of us, but I wish more young people in OKC wanted to be a part of the renaissance here. I try my personal best to encourage each of them to take part in the growth here in their current city and get involved because they will not only have a great place to live and grow, but they will have been a part of the start.

From my personal perspective, Dallas wins hands down when it comes to the "young, single professional" work hard/play hard lifestyle advertised in the media. OKC seems to be more family-oriented. People in the first group may not want to wait around for OKC to offer the lifestyle they seek being that there is a world-class city so close that already offers it. One advantage of a small city like OKC though for young people is less competition, be it for employment, entrepreneurship, or the creative arts.

I'm no authority on the subject or anything, but all of my friends at OU generally like Oklahoma City and the state of Oklahoma. One friend is from Iran and he loves it here. Says the people have been really welcoming and loving, a stark contrast when people told him that he would be slapped when Oklahomans found out he was Muslim. Another friend from France has really, really enjoyed it here. Told me he'd like to stay here possibly. (he's a petroleum engineering major)

I know, just one person's opinion, but hey it's something! Not saying OKC is better than Dallas or anything, but not everybody hates it here.

Let me just say as someone who is from Dallas, lived in OKC and Norman for nearly 9 years now, and may possibly be moving back to the DFW area in the next month or so, the two areas are far more alike then they are different. I don't know if young people "dream" of moving to Dallas rather than just seeing it as a place to start or advance themselves for an opportunity and just so happens to be close to OKC, which is sort of my situation. It happens in a lot of mid sized cities that are fairly close to larger cities (i,e. Indy to Chicago) I don't think young professionals are streaming out of here as near as much as people on here like to suggest, and I tend to agree with Pwitty that OKC is now at a point where it holds it own against other competing cities, although some improvement is always needed.

Let me just say as someone who is from Dallas, lived in OKC and Norman for nearly 9 years now, and may possibly be moving back to the DFW area in the next month or so, the two areas are far more alike then they are different. I don't know if young people "dream" of moving to Dallas rather than just seeing it as a place to start or advance themselves for an opportunity and just so happens to be close to OKC, which is sort of my situation. It happens in a lot of mid sized cities that are fairly close to larger cities (i,e. Indy to Chicago) I don't think young professionals are streaming out of here as near as much as people on here like to suggest, and I tend to agree with Pwitty that OKC is now at a point where it holds it own against other competing cities, although some improvement is always needed.

I come from right around the point where the exodus was ending, the majority of the people I knew who really had a desire to go elsewhere it seemed was as much because they wanted to get away from parents as anything else. There were others that just ended up having to taking jobs elsewhere or married someone in an out of state college, though the people from these groups tended to be more likely to move back.

The brain drain from OKC has slowed, but it was a very real problem 10-15 years ago. I am one of the biggest gripers sometimes but OKC today is awesome compared to back then when the hottest nightspots in town were Varsity and Mamasita's. Back then it was get an education and either move to Tulsa or out of state. This city does still have some ground to cover compared to its peer cities, but it's easy to take for granted how much nicer it is today than it was in the late 1990s when it was basically Lawton with traffic.

The brain drain from OKC has slowed, but it was a very real problem 10-15 years ago. I am one of the biggest gripers sometimes but OKC today is awesome compared to back then when the hottest nightspots in town were Varsity and Mamasita's. Back then it was get an education and either move to Tulsa or out of state. This city does still have some ground to cover compared to its peer cities, but it's easy to take for granted how much nicer it is today than it was in the late 1990s when it was basically Lawton with traffic.

You are finally coming around

I will be graduating with my MS from OSU in December, and I am proud and EXCITED to be starting my career in OKC. I would guess that the people in my program are pretty evenly split as far as preference for OKC, Tulsa, and Dallas.

I will be graduating with my MS from OSU in December, and I am proud and EXCITED to be starting my career in OKC. I would guess that the people in my program are pretty evenly split as far as preference for OKC, Tulsa, and Dallas.

What was the split on people from OKC metro, Tulsa metro, rest of Oklahoma and from Texas. They were all pretty similar sized groups in my undergrad program.

I don't know for sure, but I would guess they are all pretty similarly-sized groups.

I wonder if most people prefer to return to their hometowns after college or if they want to try something different? For instance, if somebody grew up in OKC are they more likely to prefer OKC? There is also the allure of the big city for young professionals so I can see that drawing people to Dallas.

I would say most people stay in a general region of the country, but maybe not the exact city they call home. I feel like even those who leave for the coasts eventually return to the area they are from, unless they go into an industry that takes them away from home to begin with. I think the one exception would be people who go to a university that is already away from home, then I think they are more likely to stay and work in that area with the friends they made in school instead of returning back to the area they're from. For instance, I had some friends I met at KU who were from Boston/Denver but ended up staying in KC after graduation instead of returning home. The same applies to quite a few people I have met from OU/OSU who were originally from Dallas and stayed in OKC after graduation. Of course, I consider OKC and Dallas to be in the same region (as I mentioned above) so that is obviously not the same as staying in KC from Boston/Denver, but still. I, on the other hand, went into a field where most of the jobs that I would be looking for are not going to be in KC. So staying in KC was never really part of the plan to begin with.

For instance I think if someone is from the Northeast they will probably stay in the Northeast. So if they're from the NYC area, they may not end up in NYC but I think they will probably end up in Boston/DC/Philly etc.

I would say most people stay in a general region of the country, but maybe not the exact city they call home. I feel like even those who leave for the coasts eventually return to the area they are from, unless they go into an industry that takes them away from home to begin with. I think the one exception would be people who go to a university that is already away from home, then I think they are more likely to stay and work in that area with the friends they made in school instead of returning back to the area they're from. For instance, I had some friends I met at KU who were from Boston/Denver but ended up staying in KC after graduation instead of returning home. The same applies to quite a few people I have met from OU/OSU who were originally from Dallas and stayed in OKC after graduation. Of course, I consider OKC and Dallas to be in the same region (as I mentioned above) so that is obviously not the same as staying in KC from Boston/Denver, but still. I, on the other hand, went into a field where most of the jobs that I would be looking for are not going to be in KC. So staying in KC was never really part of the plan to begin with.

For instance I think if someone is from the Northeast they will probably stay in the Northeast. So if they're from the NYC area, they may not end up in NYC but I think they will probably end up in Boston/DC/Philly etc.

I think you are spot on here. Most of my circle of friends here in OKC are people from Tulsa but who went to school at UCO or OU and have chosen to stay in OKC. You can't put a price on family and even if you don't live in the same city as your roots, generally people live in the same region so they can have the benefit of easy trips home. That's pretty much why I am in OKC even though I strongly prefer the coasts to flyover country. The exception is people who have a lifelong dream to live in LA, NYC, SF, etc. Even then, as you said many people who leave for the coasts will return eventually.

I've known some district employees who left OCPS and later decided that they wanted to return. Five of whom I gave good recommendations; they are stuck in California. The district has an unwritten rule that once you leave, don't think about returning. Several employees I would have loved to rehire.

People sometimes fail to realize how good they had it here in OKC. My relatives in California are all retired, settled and with home mortgages paid--drawing teacher retirement or social security benefits.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif