Well Atlanta's out

I think what G.Walker is meaning to say is a city with a metropolitan area of at least 1.5M people would be considered Tier2. I would think Nashville would be the newest Tier2.

So NYC, L.A. Chicago, Sanfran(maybe) would be "world class" cities, above tier 1, or would they share the same ranks as Houston, ATL, Seattle, DFW, Phoenix, and so on.

BTW, would anyone else exclude places like Las Vegas and Washington D.C. from the tiers and just place them in category of their own, or I am wrong thinking like that???? It just seems they are a special case.

I am annoyed at the insistence that OKC only compares to metros with 600,000-900,000 people.

It is fortunate that our city leaders don't share this myopia, while still being realistic (ie., no Olympic bids like Tulsa or Albuquerque).

A lot of people say this and it usually comes from people who visit the city but don't live here. The fact the real jewels of OKC, like the Plaza district and the Paseo, are kind of hidden I think adds to the perception. People visiting from out of town don't usually see those areas unless they've really done their research. I can say that Little Rock is pretty average for a metro of 700,000 and OKC blows it away in most areas. I think when Midtown is finally completely gentrified and the Tower Theater completed followed by cool development on 23rd St, OKC will be able to stand well against other metro areas of 1.3 million.

The one area I will say OKC really pulls below its weight at is shopping. Though its getting better with the outlet mall, places like Tulsa and Birmingham put us to shame.

Really? OK, I'll take your word. KC is a nice city but it has serious problems, too. I like OKC's position.

I agree with you. OKC is in a really good position to do something wonderful with their city. They are trying, but let's face it. KC is still within a different league when it comes to better amenities, far more urban, a better downtown, better shopping, sports, markets, public transportation etc. I really like what OKC has done so far and I see a really bright future for the city.

OKC competes better with cities like Omaha, Des Moines, Tulsa, Wichita, Little Rock, Memphis, etc. Dallas, Ft. Worth, KC, St. Louis, Denver and cities like that are a bit out of OKC's league for now. OKC does have a serious public image problem and is seen in the media far worse than the city actually is. Hopefully strides to make the city better and more attractive will overcome this image problem.

I agree with you. OKC is in a really good position to do something wonderful with their city. They are trying, but let's face it. KC is still within a different league when it comes to better amenities, far more urban, a better downtown, better shopping, sports, markets, public transportation etc. I really like what OKC has done so far and I see a really bright future for the city.

OKC competes better with cities like Omaha, Des Moines, Tulsa, Wichita, Little Rock, Memphis, etc. Dallas, Ft. Worth, KC, St. Louis, Denver and cities like that are a bit out of OKC's league for now. OKC does have a serious public image problem and is seen in the media far worse than the city actually is. Hopefully strides to make the city better and more attractive will overcome this image problem.

If by "image problem," you mean multiple articles in the NY Times talking about how great OKC is, multiple mentions in Fortune, Forbes, USA Today, Bloomberg, Reuters, etc. for having the best economy of any city over a million people in the US, then, yes, we have an "image problem." It could be the image of OKC was forged in the past, and is hard to overcome, but when TNT shows multiple images of our skyline every time the Thunder plays here, and the New York Times magazine puts our city on the cover and writes the most accurate depiction of our city ever printed in an outrageously positive piece, I think it's fair to say our image has changed, or is changing.

As for Oklahoma, we do send the dumbest and most craven politicians to Washington D.C., and have multiple morons speaking on our behalf who do not necessarily represent the views of Oklahoma City residents. Let's focus on electing good people in OKC; we can't do anything about the electoral whims of rural Oklahomans. Unfortunately, our newspaper seems committed to ensuring the reelection of many of the morons. Can't do anything about that either. It would be nice if people in OKC held Lankford's feet to the fire; for better or worse (worse in this case), he is the "OKC representative" in Washington, and he doesn't care bupkus about urban issues. He is 100% Heritage Foundation talking point generator, with a little bit of Southern Baptist, white, suburban, gun-toting-SUV-driving-Jesus thrown in for good measure.

I agree with you. OKC is in a really good position to do something wonderful with their city. They are trying, but let's face it. KC is still within a different league when it comes to better amenities, far more urban, a better downtown, better shopping, sports, markets, public transportation etc. I really like what OKC has done so far and I see a really bright future for the city.

OKC competes better with cities like Omaha, Des Moines, Tulsa, Wichita, Little Rock, Memphis, etc. Dallas, Ft. Worth, KC, St. Louis, Denver and cities like that are a bit out of OKC's league for now. OKC does have a serious public image problem and is seen in the media far worse than the city actually is. Hopefully strides to make the city better and more attractive will overcome this image problem.

Are we talking about cities or MSA's? Because if we are talking about cities, KC and OKC are far closer than you think. Even KC considers OKC as a "peer city."

You think OKC is the only one with an image problem? Google "Kansas City crime".

If by "image problem," you mean multiple articles in the NY Times talking about how great OKC is, multiple mentions in Fortune, Forbes, USA Today, Bloomberg, Reuters, etc. for having the best economy of any city over a million people in the US, then, yes, we have an "image problem." It could be the image of OKC was forged in the past, and is hard to overcome, but when TNT shows multiple images of our skyline every time the Thunder plays here, and the New York Times magazine puts our city on the cover and writes the most accurate depiction of our city ever printed in an outrageously positive piece, I think it's fair to say our image has changed, or is changing.


I can agree with the fact OKC has been getting much better press coverage as of late than it used to get. Zachj7 is correct though in that most people's perceptions of OKC are still based on old stereotypes. Take a look at the comments section on any national article that mentions OKC. You'll find comment after comment of people bashing OKC and Oklahomans for being boring, cultureless, backwards, full of religious nuts, racist, etc. Go to any national forum and start a thread promoting OKC and you'll get the same kind of comments.

I do disagree with him though that OKC compares with Wichita, Little Rock, and Des Moines. I would say it is a good deal above them.


Are we talking about cities or MSA's? Because if we are talking about cities, KC and OKC are far closer than you think. Even KC considers OKC as a "peer city."

You think OKC is the only one with an image problem? Google "Kansas City crime".

MSA is the only real way to measure a city's importance. If we go by city proper alone, OKC is larger than Atlanta but I don't think anybody can dispute me that Atlanta blows away OKC in just about every measure...thanks to their large MSA. It's the same with Kansas City but on a smaller scale.

... MSA is the only real way to measure a city's importance. If we go by city proper alone, OKC is larger than Atlanta but I don't think anybody can dispute me that Atlanta blows away OKC in just about every measure...thanks to their large MSA. It's the same with Kansas City but on a smaller scale.

Yeah, sure, those other cities have a bigger MSA. But what about TLC, hmm? Don't forget about TLC! :wink:

Here are the top Metropolitan Statistical Areas as of 2012.

The colors represent an effort to classify cities as Tiers 1-4.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/msas2012.jpg

Discussion about peer cities should include the comparative productivity of the economy. Here's a ranking of the economic output of regions, aka MSAs.

List of metropolitan areas in the United States by GMP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_the_United_States_by _GMP)

Our peers in this regard are the Research Triangle, Louisville, Jacksonville, Birmingham, and Omaha. Not bad, in my opinion, although in terms of sectors, I'd rather have the Research Triangle's workforce and sensibilities than the oil patch's. But it's no small thing for OKC to have a leadership position in energy and natural gas.

I like Fort Worth and Kansas City as lifestyle peers. With its cowtown past, historic architecture, forward-thinking urban planning (i.e. its Intermodal Transportation Center) and cultural bona fides (Van Cliburn international piano competition), Fort Worth is a terrific example that a cowtown can be metropolitan in style.

An underrated city for peer status in lifestyle (and aspirational in terms of economy) is Columbus, Ohio, another large, bland-seeming state capital with a single major league team. Its Short North district maximizes the proximity between downtown and the Ohio State campus. It has a vibrant knowledge economy with OSU, a quaint historic ethnic enclave (German Village), and a lifestyle center for shopping (Easton Town Center) for a metro not too much larger than OKC.

Discussion about peer cities should include the comparative productivity of the economy. Here's a ranking of the economic output of regions, aka MSAs.

List of metropolitan areas in the United States by GMP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_the_United_States_by _GMP)

Our peers in this regard are the Research Triangle, Louisville, Jacksonville, Birmingham, and Omaha. Not bad, in my opinion, although in terms of sectors, I'd rather have the Research Triangle's workforce and sensibilities than the oil patch's. But it's no small thing for OKC to have a leadership position in energy and natural gas.

I like Fort Worth and Kansas City as lifestyle peers. With its cowtown past, historic architecture, forward-thinking urban planning (i.e. its Intermodal Transportation Center) and cultural bona fides (Van Cliburn international piano competition), Fort Worth is a terrific example that a cowtown can be metropolitan in style.

An underrated city for peer status in lifestyle (and aspirational in terms of economy) is Columbus, Ohio, another large, bland-seeming state capital with a single major league team. Its Short North district maximizes the proximity between downtown and the Ohio State campus. It has a vibrant knowledge economy with OSU, a quaint historic ethnic enclave (German Village), and a lifestyle center for shopping (Easton Town Center) for a metro not too much larger than OKC.

It's surprising to see Memphis has such a lead on GMP considering in population its not much larger than OKC. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see OKC pass it in population very soon. Memphis isn't growing near as fast and their economy is somewhat stagnant as far as I know. They are for the most part reliant on not only a single industry but a single company (FedEx).

It's surprising to see Memphis has such a lead on GMP considering in population its not much larger than OKC. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see OKC pass it in population very soon. Memphis isn't growing near as fast and their economy is somewhat stagnant as far as I know. They are for the most part reliant on not only a single industry but a single company (FedEx).

Good point and I agree. We will surpass Memphis very soon.

MSA is the only real way to measure a city's importance. If we go by city proper alone, OKC is larger than Atlanta but I don't think anybody can dispute me that Atlanta blows away OKC in just about every measure...thanks to their large MSA. It's the same with Kansas City but on a smaller scale.+1

Really? OK, I'll take your word. KC is a nice city but it has serious problems, too. I like OKC's position.
ALL cities have "serious problems" but some definitely have more than others. I like KC and considered moving there at one time but ended up in Dallas instead.


It's surprising to see Memphis has such a lead on GMP considering in population its not much larger than OKC. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see OKC pass it in population very soon. Memphis isn't growing near as fast and their economy is somewhat stagnant as far as I know. They are for the most part reliant on not only a single industry but a single company (FedEx).
There is more than just FedEx there, not a whole lot more but more. Louisville is very similar to Memphis to me in feel and industry, the big economic engine there is the UPS hub. They have a nice downtown for their size and the UofL campus is pretty nice.

ALL cities have "serious problems" but some definitely have more than others. I like KC and considered moving there at one time but ended up in Dallas instead.


There is more than just FedEx there, not a whole lot more but more. Louisville is very similar to Memphis to me in feel and industry, the big economic engine there is the UPS hub. They have a nice downtown for their size and the UofL campus is pretty nice.

I agree about Louisville. I really like 4th St Live. It really reminds me of the Epicentre in Charlotte being mixed use with bars, restaurants, and retail. Could such a concept work in OKC, with possibly housing above it?

In regards to economic development, I think the city that is just behind OKC is Omaha, the city right with us is Louisville, and city just ahead of us is Nashville.

Steve mentioned yesterday in his chat that OKC lost out on new company headquarters to Nashville, due to the lack of direct flights, I wonder if this was the company?

Aramark to create 1,000 jobs with Nashville business services center - Nashville Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2013/07/aramark-to-create-1000-jobs-with.html?page=all)

Not to sound like a snob, because i'll take any business growth, but that doesn't sound like 1000 skilled or degreed positions.

I think with the new WSKY lounge in Deep Deuce and the announcement of the new Fassler Hall, Dust Bowl, and 80s bar, the gap between OKC and similar sized cities, at least in terms of nightlife, is really starting to close. This, once complete, will almost wipe out any edge Tulsa may have had in this area. The Waffle Champion, if it ever goes 24 hours, will satisfy the need for a trendy 24-hour diner in OKC. Even if it doesn't, its still an awesome place. OKC still needs a music venue though. If only the Tower Theater actually gets renovated. I am not holding my breath on that.

I think the retail market still has a ways to go to catch up with other cities our size, but I now have a lot of hope in that area due to the recent rumors about Costco and H&M. I think within the next five years there will be a lot of changes in this area. I even have hope when it comes to grocery stores, thanks to the two potential Reasor's locations in Edmond.

One thing I wish we would see in OKC is a real theme park. Kentucky Kingdom is currently being revamped and will reopen in Louisville. If Louisville can support a park, I have no idea why OKC couldn't. This is an area where OKC being a very family-oriented city should help.

We just got our first H&M in Denver in late 2011.

The former Six Flags in Louisville looked in bad shape last May when I was there, we stayed right by it.

We just got our first H&M in Denver in late 2011.

The former Six Flags in Louisville looked in bad shape last May when I was there, we stayed right by it.

Yeah that place has been in rough shape for a while. It was not looking good in 2009-2010 when I was at Knox.

I think with the new WSKY lounge in Deep Deuce and the announcement of the new Fassler Hall, Dust Bowl, and 80s bar, the gap between OKC and similar sized cities, at least in terms of nightlife, is really starting to close. This, once complete, will almost wipe out any edge Tulsa may have had in this area. The Waffle Champion, if it ever goes 24 hours, will satisfy the need for a trendy 24-hour diner in OKC. Even if it doesn't, its still an awesome place. OKC still needs a music venue though. If only the Tower Theater actually gets renovated. I am not holding my breath on that.

I think the retail market still has a ways to go to catch up with other cities our size, but I now have a lot of hope in that area due to the recent rumors about Costco and H&M. I think within the next five years there will be a lot of changes in this area. I even have hope when it comes to grocery stores, thanks to the two potential Reasor's locations in Edmond.

One thing I wish we would see in OKC is a real theme park. Kentucky Kingdom is currently being revamped and will reopen in Louisville. If Louisville can support a park, I have no idea why OKC couldn't. This is an area where OKC being a very family-oriented city should help.

I think an expanded frontier city would certainly be viable and could get close to that.

I think an expanded frontier city would certainly be viable and could get close to that.

I agree. All Frontier City really needs is two or three high-profile roller coasters. It wouldn't take much of an expansion to make it a viable park.

Steve mentioned yesterday in his chat that OKC lost out on new company headquarters to Nashville, due to the lack of direct flights, I wonder if this was the company?

Aramark to create 1,000 jobs with Nashville business services center - Nashville Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2013/07/aramark-to-create-1000-jobs-with.html?page=all)

You read that article and they are already well grounded in Tennessee. Probably another case of a business pitting cities against each other to get the best incentives.

I've not been to Kansas City in many years (last time was in 1991 or so), but when I was there my impression was that it was pretty darned cool, much more metropolitan than Okc and a place in which I'd be happy to live. As for the others mentioned in the op-ed piece (Denver, Fort Worth, Indianapolis, Memphis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Oklahoma City, Omaha, St. Louis and Tulsa) other than Tulsa and Ft. Worth, it's been longer still since I was in them. So I'd be hard pressed to make present day comparisons, except for Ft. Worth and Tulsa, and, even then, only as compared to Okc and not to Kansas City.

Even with the excellent progress that Okc has made and is making, and just basing this comparison on distant memories of most of those cities and recent ones of Tulsa and Ft. Worth, and as much as I like my town, and just from gut reaction and nothing scientific, I'd have to rate Okc vs.the others, head to head, as follows:

Denver & Minneapolis: Denver and Minneapolis win hands down. Not only are they larger, they have (at least, had) much better public transportation, cultural attractions, natural beauty, and downtown districts. I wouldn't say that Okc is one of their peers, at least, not yet. Today, we are not in their class.

Kansas City: I'd give Kansas City the nod largely because it hasn't chosen to destroy its downtown history like Okc did. When in downtown Kansas City, I had the sense of being in a very established city with deep roots and ties to its past, something that Okc, aside from a few buildings, can no longer lay much of a claim to. As Bob Berry Sr. used to say when calling OU football games and by analogy, Okc lost that potential as the result of "self-tackle-ization" with the Pei Plan. However, I do see Kansas City as a peer city with Okc.

Milwaukee & Omaha: I don't have sufficient impressions about either city to offer any opinions.

Memphis & Indianapolis: Okc is probably a peer city with both. Memphis is rich in history and culture but the impression that I have is that it has allowed its core to deteriorate rather badly. I never thought that highly of Indianapolis, it striking me as pedestrian, mediocre, and uninteresting (and much the same complaint could be directed to Okc after the Pei Plan and before MAPS 1). I give Okc the nod with both of these guys.

Ft. Worth: Many see Ft. Worth as being much like Okc, and I see Ft. Worth as a peer city. But Ft. Worth's old downtown hasn't been significantly destroyed but combines its old stuff with a vibrant amount of public and private downtown investment, not to mention its renowned cultural attractions, e.g, art and natural history museums. Plus, one can get on Dart and be in downtown Dallas in a flash, or regular train with ties to many areas around the country. Okc's train service begins and ends with daily round-trip schedules to Ft. Worth, and we are lucky to have that. My nod goes to Ft. Worth.

Tulsa & St. Louis: Probably I'd call both peer cities. When I was last in St. Louis, probably 40 or so years ago, I was struck by (what seemed to me) to be vast areas of downtown and near-downtown decay. Maybe that has changed, or maybe I was mistaken. But it's not a place I'd presently choose to live. I've never been jealous of St. Louis. But, back in the day, I was jealous of Tulsa with its natural beauty, rolling hills, skyline, riverfront, shopping, and cultural things. But, something went wrong in Tulsa, perhaps around the same time that things started going right in Okc with MAPS 1. I don't pretend to understand to know what happened in Tulsa ... yes, I understand it suffered a series of blows from exiting energy companies ... but Tulsa can't seem to come and get it together to do what is needed to right the ship. Okc gets my nod with both.

My above useless opinions aside, perhaps the most notable item in the op-ed piece, as far as we are concerned, is that Kansas City today deems Oklahoma City to be its "peer." To me, such an admission is pretty remarkable, and it is certainly a testament to the forward-thinking public-private approach that Okc has embraced, beginning with MAPS1. I know that it's corny, but what comes to mind is, "If you build it, they will come."

Have to disagree about Tulsa Doug. Went to the Steely Dan show at the Brady Theater Wed eve. The joint was hopping. There was obviously a show happening at Cains as well. The town is a music hub. Restaurants busy, a new Mediterranian place, McNellies packed as usual. Looked look swank new housing downtown. Drillers' game well attended at the new park. Brady district a vibrant artistic place. Tulsa got started later but looks like they're on a good path. they've had bad luck with energy companies moving and failed incentive plans, but is it really fair to compare OKC and Tulsa on this metric when 5 of the top 6 employers in the OKC metro and state and federal jobs- oh the irony.

Have to disagree about Tulsa Doug. Went to the Steely Dan show at the Brady Theater Wed eve. The joint was hopping. There was obviously a show happening at Cains as well. The town is a music hub. Restaurants busy, a new Mediterranian place, McNellies packed as usual. Looked look swank new housing downtown. Drillers' game well attended at the new park. Brady district a vibrant artistic place. Tulsa got started later but looks like they're on a good path. they've had bad luck with energy companies moving and failed incentive plans, but is it really fair to compare OKC and Tulsa on this metric when 5 of the top 6 employers in the OKC metro and state and federal jobs- oh the irony.

I agree. Right now Tulsa still has the upper hand in a few key areas, vibrant urban districts being one of them. I would be willing to bet the situation will be different two years from now. Things are starting to happen that will create the type of vibrant urban districts here similar to what they have in Tulsa. I really do hope it all unfolds as planned. While Tulsa is still ahead in some areas, OKC however is improving at a much faster rate. Even though Tulsa also had a bust, I dont think things were ever as bleak there as they were in OKC in the 1980s. One area I don't think OKC will ever be able to compete with Tulsa in is their world class museums.

I agree. Right now Tulsa still has the upper hand in a few key areas, vibrant urban districts being one of them. I would be willing to bet the situation will be different two years from now. Things are starting to happen that will create the type of vibrant urban districts here similar to what they have in Tulsa. I really do hope it all unfolds as planned. While Tulsa is still ahead in some areas, OKC however is improving at a much faster rate. Even though Tulsa also had a bust, I dont think things were ever as bleak there as they were in OKC in the 1980s. One area I don't think OKC will ever be able to compete with Tulsa in is their world class museums. Oh gosh. Another Tulsa vs OKC rivalrly, Lol. Looking at it from an objective view, Tulsa has OKC beat in it's topography and hills, more greener. However, I feel the buck stops here. First OKC is way more metropolitan than Tulsa, OKC is the states Government hub and the states financial hub. OKC river has hosted world class venues in rowing, kayaking home to the US Olympic Office for these respected sports. What has Tulsa hosted on their river?? Crickets, lol. World class boathouses, new zip line, soon to be whitewater course, how about Tulsa? Not mention more jobs, cultural amenities (World class Armstrong Auditorium), Dale Chihuly at the OKC MOA. I really feel that OKC has a much brighter future. Tulsa just stays the same. I have been to Brookside and Midtown Tulsa, it is nice but nothing super special.

One area I don't think OKC will ever be able to compete with Tulsa in is their world class museums.

OKC is very under-appreciated in this area:

National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum
Oklahoma History Center
Oklahoma City Museum of Art
Science Museum Oklahoma
Oklahoma City National Memorial & Museum
Oklahoma Heritage Museum
Fred Jones Museum of Art (OU)
Sam Noble Oklahoma Museum of Natural History (OU)

Plus, a whole host of others:
National Softball Hall of Fame
45th Infantry Division
American Banjo Museum
Harn Homestead
Oklahoma Railway Museum
Overholser Mansion
Oklahoma Contemporary

Coming soon:
American Indian Museum & Cultural Center


I know Tulsa has the Philbrook & Gilcrease, but Oklahoma City has plenty to offer in terms of museums.

Right now, the National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum and Fred Jones both have world class collections. The American Indian Museum will also be world class when complete.


And I would add that the OKC Zoo is by far the biggest attraction in the state, although it's in a slightly different category. It's a bigger asset and far more people make use of it than any museum.

I agree. Right now Tulsa still has the upper hand in a few key areas, vibrant urban districts being one of them. I would be willing to bet the situation will be different two years from now. Things are starting to happen that will create the type of vibrant urban districts here similar to what they have in Tulsa. I really do hope it all unfolds as planned. While Tulsa is still ahead in some areas, OKC however is improving at a much faster rate. Even though Tulsa also had a bust, I dont think things were ever as bleak there as they were in OKC in the 1980s. One area I don't think OKC will ever be able to compete with Tulsa in is their world class museums.

I thought that one time long ago too, until the lady on the plane next to me straightened me out about how the OKC museums had a lot more going for them than some of Tulsa's do. She was a board member of some Arts council and I believe a director to the Cowboy HOF......don't really remember too well, I've been to the Gilcrease and the Philbrook in Tulsa, and the only thing I recognized was about 1/2 dozen old Masters religious paintings at the Philbrook from the 11th and 12th century that was superior. The OKC Museum of Art Chihuly Collection beats anything else in Tulsa hands down...... now the music scene, you'd have to pay me to go, but as for the Thunder, I pay thousands a year for the entertainment. Depends on the interest I guess. Plus I get over 40 games...try going to over 40 concerts a year..that'd be tough.

Also, the Sam Noble Museum of Natural History in Norman is world class in it's own right.

Have to disagree about Tulsa Doug. Went to the Steely Dan show at the Brady Theater Wed eve. The joint was hopping. There was obviously a show happening at Cains as well. The town is a music hub. Restaurants busy, a new Mediterranian place, McNellies packed as usual. Looked look swank new housing downtown. Drillers' game well attended at the new park. Brady district a vibrant artistic place. Tulsa got started later but looks like they're on a good path. they've had bad luck with energy companies moving and failed incentive plans, but is it really fair to compare OKC and Tulsa on this metric when 5 of the top 6 employers in the OKC metro and state and federal jobs- oh the irony.

On any given night, Bricktown has many times the number of people out and about than anywhere in Tulsa. Do you realize Bricktown has FIFTY bars, restaurants and clubs??? Plus a AAA baseball stadium, bowling, a huge movie theater, canal rides, live music, etc., etc. And Bricktown has been thriving for 20 years.

Why this is always overlooked when comparing OKC to other cities is simply baffling.


Midtown in OKC will soon be bigger and better than anything in Tulsa; Deep Deuce is getting close and the Plaza District now has three cool places.

Not taking anything away from Tulsa but people that live in OKC too often overlook what we already have and don't seem to comprehend what is coming.

OKC is very under-appreciated in this area:

National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum
Oklahoma History Center
Oklahoma City Museum of Art
Science Museum Oklahoma
Oklahoma City National Memorial & Museum
Oklahoma Heritage Museum
Fred Jones Museum of Art (OU)
Sam Noble Oklahoma Museum of Natural History (OU)

Plus, a whole host of others:
National Softball Hall of Fame
45th Infantry Division
American Banjo Museum
Harn Homestead
Oklahoma Railway Museum
Overholser Mansion
Oklahoma Contemporary

Coming soon:
American Indian Museum & Cultural Center


I know Tulsa has the Philbrook & Gilcrease, but Oklahoma City has plenty to offer in terms of museums.

Right now, the National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum and Fred Jones both have world class collections. The American Indian Museum will also be world class when complete.


And I would add that the OKC Zoo is by far the biggest attraction in the state, although it's in a slightly different category. It's a bigger asset and far more people make use of it than any museum.Pete, unfortunately I have to say the Science museum sucks now. It used to be cool, but the whole place is in disrepair. I would love to see the place renovated and turned into an aviation museum! They should build a new science museum-like the one in Dallas-built along I-40 somewhere in the C2S area or perhaps Bricktown. Maybe even East of Bricktown across I235 would be a great thing to get that area going.

The Science Museum will be investing $30 million in upgrades over the next five years.

$30 mil is a massive amount and you will soon see major improvements.

On any given night, Bricktown has many times the number of people out and about than anywhere in Tulsa. And Bricktown has been thriving for 20 years.

Why this is always overlooked when comparing OKC to other cities is simply baffling.


Midtown in OKC will soon be bigger and better than anything in Tulsa; Deep Deuce is getting close and the Plaza District now has three cool places.

Not taking anything away from Tulsa but people that live in OKC too often overlook what we already have and don't seem to comprehend what is coming.

I agree about Midtown. After Fassler Hall/Dust Bowl will be huge for the area and I expect it to simply snowball after that.

As for Bricktown, I think the urban design disaster that Lower Bricktown turned into has somewhat tarnished the district's reputation with urbanists like many on this site. It also doesn't offer much for the hipster/artsy/intellectual crowd that prefers districts like the Plaza or Paseo Districts in OKC or Brady/Blue Dome in Tulsa. I think Bricktown is awesome though for what it does offer and I think things are headed in the right direction for it, with more attempts to promote the canal.

The Science Museum will be investing $30 million in upgrades over the next five years.

$30 mil is a massive amount and you will soon see major improvements.

This is good news. With that much investment, I am hoping it becomes top notch. When I lived here back in the 90s and it was the OmniPlex I thought it was pretty cool. I went back last year and couldn't believe the disrepair.

I would really like to see it moved downtown.

The Science Museum will be investing $30 million in upgrades over the next five years.

$30 mil is a massive amount and you will soon see major improvements.I really hope so. That is great news!!! I went a few months ago and a huge portion of the upper floors were decorated with this weird and cheap cardboard, the equipment and exhibits were not in good shape and the gardens were really bad with it looking like it was almost abandoned. A huge section where they had old planes and what not, was empty. Really sad to see.

I would prefer a new one to be built, but that won't happen if they are investing that kind of money into this. None the less, that is great news still and I never even knew. Any idea when we'll see the first improvements start???

Bricktown proper is simply stellar. If you have any doubt about that, take someone from out of town down there and witness their envious reaction.

There are always tons of people out and about, plenty of restaurants of all types, a bunch of hopping clubs, several live music venues, etc.


Qualifying districts by the type of people it appeals to is a completely different and subjective discussion.

But if we are going to compare urban districts between cities, I'll stack Bricktown up against anything from any city even close to the size of OKC.


And BTW, is there another city the size of OKC with as many large-scale residential developments (Level, Mosiac, Maywood Apartments, 4th Street, Metropolitan, East Bricktown, The Hill, The Edge, etc.) underway or about ready to start downtown? Or the number of downtown hotels?


People tend to over value other cities because it's new to them; and at the same time under value the city in which they live. It's why people in OKC completely dismiss and often don't even think about Bricktown.

ACM is also Big in Bricktown..........ACM @ Bricktown is still in it's infancy, let's watch it grow up.

Another thing I've noticed, that on Friday evenings in Bricktown during OU home football games, which most opposing teams with Hotel in downtown OKC, there is always a big crowd in from out of state. I doubt Tulsa gets that.

ACM is also Big in Bricktown..........ACM @ Bricktown is still in it's infancy, let's watch it grow up.

Another thing I've noticed, that on Friday evenings in Bricktown during OU home football games, which most opposing teams with Hotel in downtown OKC, there is always a big crowd in from out of state. I doubt Tulsa gets that.

Yes, both great points. Last time I was in for a game against Texas Tech, they had their cheerleaders and small pep band going from restaurant to restaurant. It was a lot of fun.


And remember, Bricktown is getting ready to add 3 or maybe even 5 hotels plus a ton of housing and other things.

Also, with all the big new residential developments just across the tracks in Deep Deuce, this district is only going to get livelier.

Edgar - I hope your goal in life is not to stir the pot as a teenager....cause you're trying awful hard with mis facts and inuendo. LOL

Yes, both great points. Last time I was in for a game against Texas Tech, they had their cheerleaders and small pep band going from restaurant to restaurant. It was a lot of fun.


And remember, Bricktown is getting ready to add 3 or maybe even 5 hotels plus a ton of housing and other things.

Also, with all the big new residential developments just across the tracks in Deep Deuce, this district is only going to get livelier.


I remember years ago, Oregon was staying at the Renaissance, I sat in a club with several of their fans who were wearing 'Ted Bundy was a Husky' T-shirts...

And we also have one of the top 2 basketball players in the world moving to DD also.

Tulsa has more g'mnt workers than you think, they actually have a division of the Oklahoma State Tax Commission, which is involved in Bankruptcies and legal.

They also are the state HQ for the U.S. Corps of Engineers....many G'mnt workers based there.

Something I've somewhat observed about the Tulsans that pronounce Tulsa as supreme or soon-to-be-supreme-again is that they're not really aware of all that's going on in OKC and just how fast everything is changing here. I love Tulsa and what it has to offer, but it's quickly fading in the review mirror.

OKC is very under-appreciated in this area:

National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum
Oklahoma History Center
Oklahoma City Museum of Art
Science Museum Oklahoma
Oklahoma City National Memorial & Museum
Oklahoma Heritage Museum
Fred Jones Museum of Art (OU)
Sam Noble Oklahoma Museum of Natural History (OU)

Plus, a whole host of others:
National Softball Hall of Fame
45th Infantry Division
American Banjo Museum
Harn Homestead
Oklahoma Railway Museum
Overholser Mansion
Oklahoma Contemporary

Coming soon:
American Indian Museum & Cultural Center


I know Tulsa has the Philbrook & Gilcrease, but Oklahoma City has plenty to offer in terms of museums.

Right now, the National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum and Fred Jones both have world class collections. The American Indian Museum will also be world class when complete.


And I would add that the OKC Zoo is by far the biggest attraction in the state, although it's in a slightly different category. It's a bigger asset and far more people make use of it than any museum. Speaking of Oklahoma Contemporary, they will be relocating from the fairgrounds into a new facility once fundraising is completed which will add more space and allow for more Art acquisitions! OKC Zoo has always been rated in the top 10 zoological parks in the country! Much better than the Tulsa Zoo in my opinion. Heck, even the OKC zoo is far superior to the Dallas Zoo!

The 45th Infantry Museum on 36th and MLK is one of the better smaller museums you'll find - If you've ever heard of Adolph Hitler - go take a look at the collection of Hitler memorabilia they brought back from WWII...Incredible - from his death cape to Eva Brauns Hand mirror, A copy of Mien Kemp (sp?), his gold service dinner sets, luger and much more.....plus the museum is a free bee.

I bet very few of you have been to the Oklahoma History Center as well. It's an amazing place and resource.


And the Oklahoma Heritage Museum is very under appreciated:

NewSpin360.com | Virtual Tour (http://host.newspin360.net/oklahomaheritagemuseum/)

Bricktown proper is simply stellar. If you have any doubt about that, take someone from out of town down there and witness their envious reaction.

There are always tons of people out and about, plenty of restaurants of all types, a bunch of hopping clubs, several live music venues, etc.


Qualifying districts by the type of people it appeals to is a completely different and subjective discussion.

But if we are going to compare urban districts between cities, I'll stack Bricktown up against anything from any city even close to the size of OKC.


And BTW, is there another city the size of OKC with as many large-scale residential developments (Level, Mosiac, Maywood Apartments, 4th Street, Metropolitan, East Bricktown, The Hill, The Edge, etc.) underway or about ready to start downtown? Or the number of downtown hotels?


People tend to over value other cities because it's new to them; and at the same time under value the city in which they live. It's why people in OKC completely dismiss and often don't even think about Bricktown.

I agree. It's the typical "grass is greener on the other side" type of thing. I am from the KC area and I will add that there are nowhere near the number of residential properties the quality of the ones that are already built or being built in downtown/midtown OKC. All of my friends who still work/live in the KC area all live in the suburbs, on the KS side, and they always talk about how they wish there was more to do nightlife wise. That's why I get so confused when I see others hype up places like KC and talk about how far below them OKC is.

Edit: Or maybe I'm just undervaluing my hometown like you said. Who knows.

I agree. It's the typical "grass is greener on the other side" type of thing. I am from the KC area and I will add that there are nowhere near the number of residential properties the quality of the ones that are already built or being built in downtown/midtown OKC. All of my friends who still work/live in the KC area all live in the suburbs, on the KS side, and they always talk about how they wish there was more to do nightlife wise. That's why I get so confused when I see others hype up places like KC and talk about how far below them OKC is.

Edit: Or maybe I'm just undervaluing my hometown like you said. Who knows.

The Power & Light District in Kansas City is pretty awesome, indisputably above anything in OKC in my opinion. Their CBD also seems a bit more polished than OKC is. It really reminds me of downtown Charlotte in many ways. It has to be taken into account though that its metro is more than twice the size of OKC's at 2.6 million. It's not really a fair comparison. That's definitely interesting and unexpected though that they aren't experiencing the type of residential growth downtown there that OKC is. One thing that is different about OKC's downtown construction vs places like Charlotte is that here, it seems to be mostly apartments vs it being condos out there. Is that the case in Kansas City? Condos tend to sit empty longer and are unaffordable for a lot of young professionals starting out.

Power & Light shows 37 restaurants/bars/clubs opposed to 50 in Bricktown. And I seriously doubt they have as much in the pipeline as does Bricktown.

Keep in mind the MSA for KC is close to a million people larger than OKC.

Power & Light shows 37 restaurants/bars/clubs opposed to 50 in Bricktown. And I seriously doubt they have as much in the pipeline as does Bricktown.

Keep in mind the MSA for KC is close to a million people larger than OKC.

Yeah, according to Wikipedia their metro area is 2.6 million. That is double the size of OKC.

Yeah, according to Wikipedia their metro area is 2.6 million. That is double the size of OKC.Hopefully that will change soon, as in OKC getting bigger. It will take a long while if it ever happens, but hopefully we can grow fast.

The 45th Infantry Museum on 36th and MLK is one of the better smaller museums you'll find - If you've ever heard of Adolph Hitler - go take a look at the collection of Hitler memorabilia they brought back from WWII...Incredible - from his death cape to Eva Brauns Hand mirror, A copy of Mien Kemp (sp?), his gold service dinner sets, luger and much more.....plus the museum is a free bee.

Mein Kampf

(I don't like to correct small things on this forum, but since I'm in Germany right now I had to)

The Power & Light District in Kansas City is pretty awesome, indisputably above anything in OKC in my opinion. Their CBD also seems a bit more polished than OKC is. It really reminds me of downtown Charlotte in many ways. It has to be taken into account though that its metro is more than twice the size of OKC's at 2.6 million. It's not really a fair comparison. That's definitely interesting and unexpected though that they aren't experiencing the type of residential growth downtown there that OKC is. One thing that is different about OKC's downtown construction vs places like Charlotte is that here, it seems to be mostly apartments vs it being condos out there. Is that the case in Kansas City? Condos tend to sit empty longer and are unaffordable for a lot of young professionals starting out.

I agree that P&L is cool, it just has the feeling of one big bar instead of multiple ones because they're all open to the middle area. That makes it fun for large events like the Big 12 Tourny and summer concerts though. I don't know for sure about the condos. I will add that, from my point of view at least, it seems like most of the growth in the KC metro is happening in the burbs. That is one reason all my buddies live in Overland Park and Lenexa is because that is where a lot of the engineering and technical types of jobs are all at. Whereas with OKC all of that growth seems to be happening closer to downtown.

You could be right about the condos, I just feel like if the condo developments were on a large scale like a lot of the projects in OKC we would hear about them still.

I will agree that walking around the downtown core of KC has a more urban feel. But KC is a much older and more developed area, so that is to be expected with all the older construction.

Yeah, according to Wikipedia their metro area is 2.6 million. That is double the size of OKC.

MSA is a little over 2 million, vs, 1.2 million for OKC. You are quoting the CSA.

In any event, KC is most definitely a Tier 2 city and OKC is Tier 3.

And we STILL have a bigger and faster growing urban district.


And Tulsa has absolutely nothing that even holds a candle.

Being a fresh college graduate, I guess I would just expect KC to have a large number of neighborhoods or areas close to downtown where young professionals would be drawn. This seems to be the case in most large cities. Unfortunately, at least to my knowledge, that isn't really the case. It seems like most of the young professionals get scattered around all the different suburbs of KC. That's one of the big positives in my mind about OKC, is the rise of areas like DD and Midtown.

You also have to remember that Kansas City was an architecture and business center of westward expansion after the Civil War. They had a big head start over most cities in the middle of the country.

MSA is a little over 2 million, vs, 1.2 million for OKC. You are quoting the CSA.

OKC is a shade under 1.3

And as I have stated many times, cities built on navigable water were developed in a much more focused and dense way than those that were not.

KC probably has many times the amount of urban structures than OKC has ever had.

Being a fresh college graduate, I guess I would just expect KC to have a large number of neighborhoods or areas close to downtown where young professionals would be drawn. This seems to be the case in most large cities. Unfortunately, at least to my knowledge, that isn't really the case. It seems like most of the young professionals get scattered around all the different suburbs of KC. That's one of the big positives in my mind about OKC, is the rise of areas like DD and Midtown.

Crossroads District, River Market and Westport are all incredible places for young people. Crossroads is easily my favorite place in KC. Crown Center and the Plaza also draw young people, but they are more expensive.

I will add that, from my point of view at least, it seems like most of the growth in the KC metro is happening in the burbs. That is one reason all my buddies live in Overland Park and Lenexa is because that is where a lot of the engineering and technical types of jobs are all at. Whereas with OKC all of that growth seems to be happening closer to downtown.


Interesting you say that. I was reading an article in the NY Times a few months ago about the ridiculous incentive "border war" between MO and KS. Lots of companies have been, for the most part, bribed into moving into Kansas. It doesn't seem like it is having a positive effect on their overall economy. Last time I looked KC is growing much slower than OKC and is under-performing compared other "I-35" metros. Which stinks because they do have a ton of engineering and R&D-type firms.

That is one thing I really like about OKC. City and suburbs here may compete on some level here, but when it comes to big economic development projects everyone falls in line for 'the greater good'. Also, even at its worst, downtown and surrounding districts have always had the largest concentration of jobs in OKC, which is still true to this day.

As far as the P&L district, when I went there it was alright, but seemed a bit contrived. OTOH, I really did like the Country Club Plaza area. There are also some nice areas like Brookside and Westport.