Heinen's (compare to Reasor's, Uptown Market, etc) in Ohio did it. This is a full service grocery store inside the old AmeriTrust Bank HQ rotunda. The complex's Marcel Breuer tower is condos, where Manziel and countless other celebs and pro athletes live.

http://www.heinens.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Sharkbank-Competition.jpg

Just gotta be creative. The big banks all have shiny new HQ complexes, so the northeast and rust belt cities all have this surplus of banking halls and rotundas. It's become an adaptive reuse category all on it's own, and I've never seen one where it was easy and required zero creativity.

Like!

Teo, the dome is the DEFINITION of the term "functionally obsolete". As we all know, it was built as a bank...when banks operated completely differently than today. It is nearly impossible to elegantly adaptively reuse as anything else, without tearing out everything inside that makes it special. Even if you completely gut it, as mentioned above it is a TERRIBLE fit as a grocery store.

So the real question is, is it important enough architecturally, historically and as a landmark to justify preservation. If it is (and I personally believe this to be the case) then it should be preserved. But the ONLY way to preserve a functionally obsolete building without completely compromising what makes it special is to find income from somewhere else. In the case of some buildings, that comes in the form of a nonprofit/trust, donations, etc.. I still say that if this approach had been taken to Stage Center 30 years ago it would today be a jewel standing in downtown, irrespective of whether a theater group was able to make it work. But we didn't take that approach, and we see where Stage Center is today, on the ash heap.

In the case of the dome - which is nowhere near as unusual or architecturally significant as SC was - the answer is plainly evident. Make the rest of the available, unused and unutilized portion of the property cas flow. Do this and you can put whatever the heck "feels" right in the dome without worrying too much about the money it generates.

But keep lurching around, focusing ONLY on the dome and trying to put square pegs into round holes and at some point an owner will throw up his hands, call the whole thing unworkable and start demolition proceedings. And the economics will surely support that position. This path you are suggesting plays Russion roulette with the future of the building, and I for one think this is unacceptable so long as an easier and better solution is so obvious.

You're still missing the point. I'm not trying to put any square pegs in round holes. Nothing about what you're proposing regarding cash flowing the property is anything other than completely obvious. There's no need to solve the obvious problem of poor land use, it just needs to be done.

The question remains whether or not the Gold Dome is worthy of keeping. And this DOES need to be answered now because if it's not worthy of keeping, we risk haphazardly developing one of the most important parcels in the entire city. This lot needs to be coherent, and its coherence with an extant Gold Dome absolutely hinges on the use of the Dome.

The argument seems very clear to me: If it is going to be a lifeless 20,000 square foot sculpture, then it needs to be razed. If we can't think of a good use for the building in the present (understanding the goal is not to cash flow the Dome itself, because again, that's not a legitimate problem), then chau: raze it and put together a project that will anchor one of the 5-10 most important intersections in the city.

I'm all for preserving the Dome. Trust me. But not if it can't be resuscitated.

No, YOU are missing the point. Again. I'm not suggesting a 20K sq ft sculpture in any way, shape or form. You're obviously not listening to and/or comprehending what I am saying.

What I am saying is that if enough income is properly derived from the rest of the property, the owner would have the luxury of allowing the dome to be literally ANYTHING, without the dome having pressure to perform financially. It allows the dome to truly achieve its highest and best use without qualification. Perhaps that is a really great museum. Perhaps a venue of some sort. Maybe some great restaurant space. Maybe offices for nonprofits with special rent structure. Who knows?

Regardless of what it becomes, properly developing the rest of the parcel would allow the owners to find the right fit for the dome rather than continually lunging at the wrong fit and hastening the building's demise.

What I am saying is that if enough income is properly derived from the rest of the property, the owner would have the luxury of allowing the dome to be literally ANYTHING, without the dome having pressure to perform financially.

This is how I'm sure you're still missing the point: If the Dome is failing to bring people to the area it has failed its most fundamental purpose. It can't be ANYTHING at the intersection of 23rd and Classen. If the Gold Dome were at 28th and McKinley, fine, it can be offices for nonprofits.

Furthermore, if the Dome doesn't interact with its surroundings it has failed its second most fundamental purpose. Its intended function ought to interact with the buildings that will be built on the rest of the lot in order to encourage the area to maximize traffic. If you put a restaurant in the space after the fact, and the new place has a bunch of restaurants too, it's not exactly a creative use for the Dome, and that in and of itself is not bad, but perhaps that building is not the highest and best use for that land.

The purpose of the Dome is not preservation for preservation sake. I'm not saying it has to come to that. I'm not saying things can't work there. I'm saying that the end result of what you're advocating will be haphazard development simply in the interest of preserving the Dome. Especially in Oklahoma City. The block is too important for that. The Dome can't just be used for anything if we're going to save it.

OMG Teo this is like talking to a wall. The surrounding buildings should be thoughtfully (even architecturally) integrated with the dome. I'm not suggesting slapping up a tilt-up strip center. It should really be a complex of buildings with the dome serving as its centerpiece. And when I say "whatever" I don't mean some crap use of the dome. I mean whatever as in if the whole complex is financially viable it allows the dome to be something really, really special. It gives you the luxury of adaptively re-using the dome for a great project that you couldn't have accomplished otherwise. It helps unlock the dome's value. This infill approach also allows the dome to better connect to walkable adjacent neighborhoods, and connect those neighborhoods to each other. Once again, this improves potential financial viability of the dome itself.

But again, putting all of the pressure on the dome to alone carry the weight of a terrible and inefficient land use (as it is currently configured) would almost certainly force a use that guts the dome of any of its architectural character. I can't believe you of all people are arguing AGAINST better land use and walkability as tools for economic development. I think at this point you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, because I don't believe for a second that you are even a tiny bit dense; in fact I know that you are super bright. If you can't grasp the big picture that I am painting, so be it. I'm done beating my head against this particular wall. Carry on.

If only it could be the Bartlesville price tower hotel & architecture museum...if only.

Steve and Brianna to think a deal is getting closer for a grocery store in the Gold Dome according to their chats this week.

As I've stated before, my take on it is lets wait and see what they have planned. A grocery store is far more needed in this neighborhood than another bar/restaurant. I question the logistics of having a full-sized supermarket in a space that small. However, if they get creative I am certain it could work.

Depends on the who the operator is and what they plan to do with the interior.

I am more than excited for a new grocery store, but I am looking forward to (hopeful) a farmers market / nutritious food court coming to 23rd street. Not only would this be perfect for the area, but it would be HIGHLY profitable/ideal for all involved, including the surrounding neighborhoods.

^

They have a farmer's market once a month, May through October. I'm sure they'd have if more often if there was more demand.

Farmers Market :: Uptown 23rd District (http://uptown23rd.com/farmers-market/)


Plus, I believe the two grocery stores looking at the Gold Dome are Sprouts and Natural Grocers, two very healthy shopping options.

I really hope it ends up being Sprouts, as I prefer them over Natural Grocers.

I really hope it ends up being Sprouts, as I prefer them over Natural Grocers.

Sprouts would be a better store to go in there, they're just better in every way than Natural Grocers (except on the vitamin/supplement thing). We go to both, but living out in North Bumf*** (NW 164th/May), we go to Natural Grocers quite a bit more (on 164th/Western), even though they're smaller and more like an Akin's. Maybe we'll eventually get to move closer to a Sprouts, one can dream, lol...

Still be quite a strange option for that kind of building, though.

What about an Aldi?

Forbes: ALDI Is A Growing Menace To America's Grocery Retailers (http://www.forbes.com/sites/thehartmangroup/2015/04/14/aldi-is-a-growing-menace-to-americas-grocery-retailers/)
Forbes: The Grocery Wars: Whole Foods vs. ALDI (http://www.forbes.com/sites/phillempert/2015/05/15/the-grocery-wars-whole-foods-vs-aldi/)

I'm not too familiar with these, but I recall people raving about them. Also, they tend to be small. The N Penn location near Quail Springs is just shy of 15k sqft.

Eh, Aldi is a low-cost, warehouse-style (but waaaaaaaay smaller) store that isn't really a good fit for that place, most likely. No personality, nothing really special except cheap goods.

What ever happened with the grocer announcement? For some reason I thought they were suppose to announce something in mid-December.

The longer the wait the better, as I'd much rather see almost anything in there than a grocery store, which should surely rip out every bit of that great interior.

Again I will say that a successful redevelopment and long-term stability of the dome should not depend upon the dome itself but instead on better utilization of the excess land AROUND the dome. Do that and you could do something REALLY cool with the dome.

^

I completely agree but that is never going to happen with a grocery store in the dome.

Kind of my point. Don't ruin the interior of the dome for something that precludes use of the rest of the parcel AND probably won't work long-term, anyway. Total nonstarter for me.

By the way, the cynic in me says that a grocery store is the perfect tenant if your long play is to tear down the dome and redevelop new commercial there. Gut the place in the name of accommodating the tenant and if it works out, great. But if it doesn't, shrug your shoulders and say you need to demolish the place because it obviously can't be successfully redeveloped AND no longer has historic architectural integrity, anyway. Win-win.

I agree. I do NOT want a grocery store in here. Honestly if it was built for a bank it would be neat to see a bank come in for the first floor. I agree that something needs to be done with the land around.

I'm sure this would never happen in a million years, but sometimes they literally pick buildings up and move them. I wonder if this would be possible with the dome.

When Chase sold the Gold Dome, there was a covenant that no other bank could go in.

The new Chase location is right across Western.

Besaides, banking works completely differently these days, between ATMs, online banking, etc there is little need for lots of drive-thru lanes and virtually zero need for large lobbies. This was already happening when the dome was initially abandoned, and is the reason they moved out in the first place.

Besaides, banking works completely differently these days, between ATMs, online banking, etc there is little need for lots of drive-thru lanes and virtually zero need for large lobbies. This was already happening when the dome was initially abandoned, and is the reason they moved out in the first place.

Well that drive thru thing needs to be demoed or re-purposed either way.

Absolutely agree

Come on guys, what's wrong with the classics?

http://www.therightshine.com/imghost/golddome.jpg

Don't forget the pizza shop and super donut

Come on guys, what's wrong with the classics?

http://www.therightshine.com/imghost/golddome.jpg

12035

Protest to scale.

I wish I had (and was proficient in) Sketch Up. I'd like to show what I am suggesting would work. Better land utilization would drive market-rate rents from the rest of the parcel, which currently earns NOTHING. At that point it's all just simple math.

Apparently per Briana Bailey, negotiations for a grocer are still ongoing. Will be interesting to see who it is and what they have planned.

I doubt Sprouts from what I've been told about them opening more stores locally.

Maybe an Aldi's?

The longer the wait the better, as I'd much rather see almost anything in there than a grocery store, which should surely rip out every bit of that great interior.

I've been over this in this thread before. Why do you cling to this assumption? Why are your expectations always so low?

I'm not "clinging" to anything, merely going on my past experience leasing to grocery stores and knowing their requirements.

You can roll with a grocery store and still insist on high standards. In fact, you can do a lot of things and still insist on high standards. This isn't difficult. Not every grocery store ever built is going to resemble every grocery store to which you ever leased space. In fact, along with the "foodie revolution" (not to mention in 2016 ALL retailers are focusing on selling a healthier, happier you), grocery stores are becoming more innovative.

If east coast grocers like Publix or Wegman's entered the scene here, it would be over for everyone that currently operates, except perhaps Uptown Market which would still need to up its game. The grocery market in Oklahoma, given how far behind it really is, is still probably a huge opportunity. If anyone can be more compelling than Walmart, that is...

Heinen's Grocery Store at E 9th and Euclid in Cleveland:

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8665/16101688694_d4509f0630_b.jpg
http://www.heinens.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Sharkbank-Competition.jpg
http://i.embed.ly/1/display/resize?key=1e6a1a1efdb011df84894040444cdc60&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FB-tDrDYVEAMKp28.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WNeiJ0z.jpg

Constantino's Market on W 9th and Lakeside in Cleveland:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/storyimage/CC/20150319/FREE/150319820/AR/0/AR-150319820.jpg&MaxW=1400&MaxH=1400
http://wksu.org/news/images/42100/heinens-opening-001.JPG
http://zenergyfitness.net/sites/default/files/Images/23.jpg

Constantino's Market at E 115 and Euclid in Cleveland (oh no another grocery store in the round!):

http://www.universitycircle.org/files/locations/detail/-dp120511constantinos02.jpg
http://observer.case.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/IMG_25872.jpg

The same grocer, Constantino's, is putting a location into Dayton's historic Greyhound Station:
https://www.cardcow.com/images/set485/card00917_fr.jpg

Publix in Columbia SC's Congaree Vista neighborhood:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5542-gervais_street_publix.jpg
http://m0.i.pbase.com/u32/lsyd/large/31415700.DSCN5559.jpg
^ Maybe an appropriate annex could be built toward Western?

This building also has a really cool grocery store inside:

http://www.milenorthhotel.com/local-area/assets/images/inset/JohnHancock314x210.jpg

Jungle Jim's in Cincy has its own monorail (retired from King's Island Amusement Park):

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2012/05/06/cb/ff/ncg031112bizjungle_1097990a_1.jpg
http://www.themeparkreview.com/forum/files/325_3.jpg
http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2012/07/16/9e/6d/063012bizjungle02_1150894a_6.jpg

So moral to the story is that grocery stores can think outside of the BOX.

^^^^ They *can* think outside the box, but I have never seen any indication of any grocery store in OKC doing anything remotely close to those (which are wonderful and would be a great addition to OKC if it could happen), so I'm with Pete on this one... OKC is value-engineered, didn't ya know? :)

Would love seeing something like the Cleveland project more than anyone.

Have reason to believe that is not the direction this project is heading.

Well that changes things. If you're hearing specific things, perhaps we should consider the options.

All of 23rd Street should have a historic district overlay...

What your showing is a beautiful room with deli, RTE foods, fish, meat, and cheese counters with a common area for people to have a coffee or enjoy a sandwich. What your not showing is the 3x amount of real square footage required to make it a real store. Corn starch, bread, fruity loops, detergents and chemicals, Kraft singles...the glorious Mexican isle with all the hot sauce and pickled veg!!

That exists at your sample store in abundance. That is not the case of the dome. What would make sense would be to add on space where space is needed like the pump bar or cheevers(done by the family who operated the flower shop to add a house into their store.). But you'll never see that TIF $$$.

I'm hearing the rumors harder than ever that Landrun will be doing a deal with a grocer. So let's hope if they do it, they do it right.

What confidence do we have in landrun? I like the Drake...

Remember the Hale Photo Bldg? Anyone have an update on where that project stands?

The Drake is the modern part of the development. The rest of the storefronts are the original cut marble. The Hale was a disaster due it's partial collapse. I'm not going to bat for landrun here. I'm just making a statement. The rise came out well enough. And in the case of gusto and pump where the tenants were allowed to make their own improvements: they came out as great redevelopments. I just home it's a similar case with gold done.

Here's the thing about the Hale - small, insignificant building - but laden with iconic features. The structure (stable or not) wasn't important, but the ideal would have been something that raises density on that block, while preserving the perfect way that building addressed Automobile Alley.

Come on guys, what's wrong with the classics?

http://www.therightshine.com/imghost/golddome.jpg

LOL! That's hilarious.

Come on guys, what's wrong with the classics?

http://www.therightshine.com/imghost/golddome.jpg

Yeah, you gotta have Marco's/Papa Murphy's/Dominoes and a liquor store. Classic staples of a good ol' American Strip Center...

Donuts, dry cleaners, froyo and vapes as well.

I get that people are clamoring for a grocery store in the core but I just really think its not the right spot for one.

I get that people are clamoring for a grocery store in the core but I just really think its not the right spot for one.

Too bad the Prohibition Room can't be brought back.

Too bad the Prohibition Room can't be brought back.

I'm not sure the Prohibition room would have much success in today's OKC bar scene. We've already seen how the new players have affected Edna's and company.

Yeah, you gotta have Marco's/Papa Murphy's/Dominoes and a liquor store. Classic staples of a good ol' American Strip Center...

Liquor store for sure. Plus, this is 23rd so we will definitely need a pawn shop.

I've heard that the Cox services store in The Rise is a pretty convenient location, we could probably use another one of those a bit down the street.

I'm not sure the Prohibition room would have much success in today's OKC bar scene. We've already seen how the new players have affected Edna's and company.

It could if the original concept was improved on. It could be an awesome speakeasy style jazz club.

I think we could nix the PayDay Loans and just go with a bank and a lane or two for ATM etc. Great exposure on the corner.

and a Sonic Drive In, since they're from OKC. Perfection!!!

So it looks like Natural Grocers might move into the dome?

Natural Grocers plans landmark move to OKC's historic Gold Dome | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/natural-grocers-plans-landmark-move-to-okcs-historic-gold-dome/article/5493371)

While not downtown, its close. Another good shopping choice for you all downtowners. It may not be the place to do all your grocery shopping but it has to be better then the long in the tooth Homeland. Nice for you all if you need a carton of milk or some bread or a head of lettus.

I think the picture on top of the wiki with teemco needs to be changed.

Excellent news for my household. My wife chooses Walmart (which she hates) over the Homeland on Classen because it's in such rough shape. Most groceries are purchased from Whole Foods, even though we live in Heritage. This is perfect.

Hopefully the Homeland will step up their game.

Yes, NG filed their plans with the Urban Design Commission yesterday and I should have them later today.

I was told by the broker involved there are still some key details which may shift. I will find out more.

BUT, this seems like a good resolution, although I'm concerned about preserving the interior and especially the ceiling.

Just read online in Supermarket News that Natural Grocers second quarter sales and earnings were well below what was expected. Some of the reason was due to too many stores within close proximity of each other.

I guess this will be good for the area....it is another option. I live just one block from the one on NW 70 and May. Think I've been in there three times...first to just check it out and look around...other two times I ran in for an onion or vegetable for dinner.
Not my kind of place...way too pricey and the selection is definitely geared toward natural and organic. On the other hand, Sprouts is about 6 blocks away. I'm in there at least a couple of times a week. Their green bell peppers aren't $2.29 each and you can buy a gallon of Hiland or Borden milk for $4.00 instead of the $7.00 a gallon organic stuff at Natural Grocers. Just my opinion. Milk at Aldi--$2.09 a gallon--and it's made by Hiland.