It seems John Doherty is leaving ODOT for health reasons and not a moment too soon. I found the 2008-2009 contract between ODOT and Amtrak and it For years he gave Brewer cash from the train's concession stand for leasing the depot and repairs without a written lease. No bills or invoices just cash changing hands. Here's the contract:

heartland contract.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/?y9p6mft84vgzoff)


Wow. No physical bills for the train's diesel fuel from the supplier, just a typed invoice. It must appear on ODOT's regular fuel expenditures, not under the Flyer's operating costs to make it seem less expensive to the legislature.

The contract’s Oklahoma Passenger Incentive says that ODOT will receive $10 per passenger for every passenger over a certain base amount (Page 7). For fiscal year 2009, the base ridership agreed to was 70,000 with any riders above that amount leading to a $10 stipend to the state. In the news it was a record year with over 81,000 riders. Where is the cash from this? There has never been a check written for record ridership.

The Heartland Flyers seating capacity is 201 every day, with 3 passenger cars (Except for OU/ Texas football weekend where there are 2 extra cars). In 2011, the Flyer reported ridership of 84,000. This would mean the train carried 230 people per day. Unless the train is counting round trip tickets as two separate tickets, this would be impossible. It is even unlikely the train is half full every day on the way to Dallas and back (100 tickets sold to go to Dallas and 100 to come back the same day.) Using this accounting method to count riders when they purchase a round trip ticket as 2 is unlawful when state money is involved. It is the same as counting a person twice when they go through a toll booth since they entered and exited it. It is probably the reason why Amtrak is not writing the state any checks for record ridership. There must be a secret agreement on the actual ridership, so no checks are written because of the Oklahoma Passenger Incentive from the contract.

It's nice to have it, but you can't run a state funded operation this way. It's illegal to just give cash to people without receipts and hide spending in other divisions to make your operating costs seem lower.

Round trip tickets are two people.

Not because they got on and got off. It's because they got on twice. Once in Oklahoma City, once in Dallas.

84,000 is accurate, meaning 84,000 trips were taken. It does not mean all 84,000 originated in OKC or Dallas respectively. A one-way would be counted as one rider, because they got on the train once. Round trip would be counted as two because two separate trips were taken. "Round trip" is just an easier way to sell tickets as a package instead of having the person buy two one way tickets through separate transactions, they can purchase a return trip under the same transaction.

It’s time for the state to save money and let Megabus replace the Heartland Flyer.
It’s faster, cheaper, has more frequent service and has better ending destinations that could be moved to even better locations.

It’s time for the state to save money and let Megabus replace the Heartland Flyer.
It’s faster, cheaper, has more frequent service and has better ending destinations that could be moved to even better locations.

You do that, then you kill the dream of connecting OKC with either Kansas City via Wichita or Tulsa or having a direct route through Tulsa to St. Louis. The ultimate goal is for HSR and we'll never get there by wanting to be cheap about it.

Yeah, but are we nobly clinging to our dream of HSR or any of the intermediate goals while hemorraging money?

Since the parent company of MegaBus is Coach USA, which is a wholly owned subsidary of Stage Coach Group, which is the largest private rail operator in the UK the State should contract with them to take over the Heartland Flyer route instead of contracting with Amtrak.

What is Oklahoma's share of the cost to operate the Heartland Flyer as it is? I've read that if extended to Newton, that that cost would be $4.4 million shared equally by the states, so add 2.2 to what Oklahoma's current operating cost is. That's paid by every Oklahoman...which is what? $4 out of your pocket? Big whoop. Keep Heartland Flyer.

I concur with JTF...awesome!

The problem with the flyer is that it's incredibly slow. It takes so much longer to get to the DFW area than by bus, and when you get there, you have to take DART over to actual Dallas, whereas the bus takes you right there.

It's the same old battle we're going to be fighting in OKC with commuter rail. Until it's a FAST rail and can beat the cars there, it's just not going to catch on. With the 50 stops it makes on the way, there's no chance for it to either get up to speed, or beat a car.

Bottom line, the Flyer isn't for commuters, it's for train romancers. It's cool and all...it's just not practical.

or don't want to spend $4 every 18 miles driving to and from Dallas.

OR, maybe for people who don't own a car?

those that want to get to dallas and don't own a car will most likely take the bus

You do that, then you kill the dream of connecting OKC with either Kansas City via Wichita or Tulsa or having a direct route through Tulsa to St. Louis. The ultimate goal is for HSR and we'll never get there by wanting to be cheap about it.

Killing the very slow Heartland Flyer doesn’t kill the dream of HSR…..
If anything spending money wisely enhances its remote possibility for our area.
In the meantime all of those locations and more could be served far more effectively and implemented much quicker by a bus service such as Megabus.

Megabus is a discount bus service. You do realize how many of those have come and gone right?



That’s no excuse to continue spending money that could be spent in much smarter ways….

We could even take some of the money we save to help Megabus with its service by providing low cost bus stops in good locations.
We could use some of the saved money to help build up our local transit systems that would likely transport far higher numbers of people.

those that want to get to dallas and don't own a car will most likely take the bus

Your right…but people can also rent a car or fly......There are options!
Heck, I know people who have hitchhiked to Dallas.

Well no doubt about it OU48A. There is definitely a built-in subsidy to driving yourself that rail transit has a hard time competing against. Maybe if rail manufactures got all of the favorable tax benefits auto manufactures got and we had a network of 2.5 million miles of taxpayer funded tracks rail might be a better alternative. Then throw in a military industrial complex ready to kill anything that drove up the price of a train ticket and who knows what we could have.

Bottom line - there is a lot more cost that goes into driving a car (or bus) from OKC to Dallas than what is in the gas tank. Personally, I think we spend too much tax money keep the current system alive when a cheaper alternative is availble - but that is just me.

Your right…but people can also rent a car or fly......There are options!
Heck, I know people who have hitchhiked to Dallas.

no i agree .. my point is if the heartland flyer ended it wouldn't stop people from getting to dallas without a car

Well no doubt about it OU48A. There is definitely a built-in subsidy to driving yourself that rail transit has a hard time competing against. Maybe if rail manufactures got all of the favorable tax benefits auto manufactures got and we had a network of 2.5 million miles of taxpayer funded tracks rail might be a better alternative. Then throw in a military industrial complex ready to kill anything that drove up the price of a train ticket and who knows what we could have.

Bottom line - there is a lot more cost that goes into driving a car (or bus) from OKC to Dallas than what is in the gas tank. Personally, I think we spend too much tax money keep the current system alive when a cheaper alternative is availble - but that is just me.

And yet, almost all those countries with more developed highway systems are the wealthier countries and those with less developed systems are poorer.

Highways paved (per capita) statistics - Countries compared - NationMaster (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tra_hig_pav_percap-transportation-highways-paved-per-capita)

We have benefited from great movement of goods from and to a wide area where assets can deploy near their most efficient locations. Rail system development BY ITSELF doesn't insure better economic growth. While moving raw goods by train is certainly efficient, there is still a network of roads needed to move goods to more defined places. So, development of more railways doesn't eliminate the need or cost of also having roads. This is not a either or issue.

Your crusade seems to be to eliminate cars, trucks, roads, streets. It is NEVER going to happen.

This just in - people with 90" TVs are wealthier and people with 19" inch TVs are poorer.


Your crusade seems to be to eliminate cars, trucks, roads, streets. It is NEVER going to happen.

The car culture will kill itself. It doesn't need my help. I would just like another transportation system in place when it dies.

This just in - people with 90" TVs are wealthier and people with 19" inch TVs are poorer.



The car culture will kill itself. It doesn't need my help. I would just like another transportation system in place when it dies.

it might or it might not .. but we won't know for another 100 years

The problem with the flyer is that it's incredibly slow. It takes so much longer to get to the DFW area than by bus, and when you get there, you have to take DART over to actual Dallas, whereas the bus takes you right there.

It's the same old battle we're going to be fighting in OKC with commuter rail. Until it's a FAST rail and can beat the cars there, it's just not going to catch on. With the 50 stops it makes on the way, there's no chance for it to either get up to speed, or beat a car.

Bottom line, the Flyer isn't for commuters, it's for train romancers. It's cool and all...it's just not practical.

Tell me you wouldn't take a one way trip to Dallas via Fort Worth for $27. There are tons of people on that train more than you know, varying ages too. You should try it sometime and find out for yourself how many people on the train are not romancers. Also, there are tons of people where that situation may be ideal and practical for them.


Killing the very slow Heartland Flyer doesn’t kill the dream of HSR…..
If anything spending money wisely enhances its remote possibility for our area.
In the meantime all of those locations and more could be served far more effectively and implemented much quicker by a bus service such as Megabus.

Just the Facts put it nicely, which is why I agreed with him. How bout we just add your Megabus as another mode of transportation. Isn't the all out course to have as many modes available as possible? I mean, if you're really in a hurry to get down there, wouldn't it just be easy to take that regional flight down to DFW? Just cause slow isn't practical for you doesn't mean no one wants it. Now if your gripe is taxing taxing taxing based on the federal government subsidizing this service then I get it, but come on...

"For years he gave Brewer cash from the train's concession stand for leasing the depot and repairs without a written lease". This is false and the contract shown is the one between Amtrak and the State. The Brewers gave the State and Amtrak free rent for over 10 plus years to help with a subsidized service for the citizens. Now the city wants to condemn
the property for just a streetcar stop and a "study" that might not ever materialize on future passenger rail. This facility is currently being used as a transportation hub. If the city needs a streetcar stop build it into the redesign of EK Gaylord.
You don't need this facility for just a streetcar stop. This is the only project that has money at this time. Everything else is blue sky.

Now if your gripe is taxing taxing taxing based on the federal government subsidizing this service then I get it, but come on...

If taxation was his concern than anything that used I-35 would be out of the question.

"For years he gave Brewer cash from the train's concession stand for leasing the depot and repairs without a written lease". This is false and the contract shown is the one between Amtrak and the State. The Brewers gave the State and Amtrak free rent for over 10 plus years to help with a subsidized service for the citizens. Now the city wants to condemn
the property for just a streetcar stop and a "study" that might not ever materialize on future passenger rail. This facility is currently being used as a transportation hub. If the city needs a streetcar stop build it into the redesign of EK Gaylord.
You don't need this facility for just a streetcar stop. This is the only project that has money at this time. Everything else is blue sky.

The city doesn't want it for a "stop". It is the future transit hub. And it will be aquired

It is already a transit hub. Just don't want another Indian Cultural Center situation to happen.

It is already a transit hub.

All the more reason. For the city to own it

I applaud your confidence in our city and state leaders. The way things have been going make me nervous.

I applaud your confidence in our city and state leaders. The way things have been going make me nervous.

The AICC was built from the ground up with today's construction costs. The Santa Fe Terminal is already built. Now, if you have seen the plans, there is site work and construction that will be done but this will have more local traffic than your boondoggle tourist trap south and east of town you're so concerned about.

I applaud your confidence in our city and state leaders. The way things have been going make me nervous.

Please show me something the city has started building and stopped part of the way through

There are alot of moving parts that have to come together to make this transit dream a reality. I would hate to see a takeover of a private asset be neglected because of not being able to reach the goals outlined in the "study" and only just having it as streetcar stop. Currently, thats all we have money for. It not for certain that we will receive the multimillions that would be needed to make it any more than this.

An interesting update on the Heartland Flyer which, despite the headline, indicates that not all is bad.

Heartland Flyer loses more than $43 per rider in 2012, report finds | News OK (http://newsok.com/heartland-flyer-loses-more-than-43-per-rider-in-2012-report-finds/article/3760428)

A program that is subsidized by $4M and loses almost $3M looks pretty bad.

A program that is subsidized by $4M and loses almost $3M looks pretty bad.

Its a lot freakin better than their food sales!

"For years he gave Brewer cash from the train's concession stand for leasing the depot and repairs without a written lease". This is false and the contract shown is the one between Amtrak and the State. The Brewers gave the State and Amtrak free rent for over 10 plus years to help with a subsidized service for the citizens. Now the city wants to condemn
the property for just a streetcar stop and a "study" that might not ever materialize on future passenger rail. This facility is currently being used as a transportation hub. If the city needs a streetcar stop build it into the redesign of EK Gaylord.
You don't need this facility for just a streetcar stop. This is the only project that has money at this time. Everything else is blue sky.


He wasn't doing it out of the goodness of his heart. The secret agreement was to give him a cut of the snack money. There was no lease until 2010, but John would give him some cash to help pay for things without the legislature finding out as it would be counted as part of the actual cost of operation, much like the fuel bill, which is just put under ODOT's truck fuel division to hide costs. Here is the contact:

Heartland Contract (http://www.scribd.com/doc/128129008/Heartland-Contract)


If he was just in it to help the city, he wouldn't have locked the doors during the busiest week of 2010 to hurt the Flyer, because he felt he wasn't getting enough money after a million dollar grant:

Oklahoma agency gains control of Santa Fe Train Depot with new lease | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-agency-gains-control-of-santa-fe-train-depot-with-new-lease/article/3525506)

It's also great for smuggling drugs from DFW to OKC. If you ever see the people getting off on Sundays nights, a lot of them hop off with big bags and get into Escalades with the gigantic rims. Kind of makes you wonder...

Here is the problem with Amtrak - they have got drop the long distance trains in favor of regional routes connecting city pairs. The California Zephyr lost $62.6 million last year. That money would be better served building ridership between cities that are too close for air travel.

Yes the Heartland Flyer lost $2.7 million last year but a big part of that is only having it make 1 trip a day. They aren't operating it enough to cover the fixed cost of having it (the train cost the same amount of money whether it is sitting on a siding or moving people). It needs to be making no less the 4 round trips a day between OKC and DFW. In fact, the only reason it goes to Ft Worth one time a day at all is so it can tie into the long distance trains that are losing so much money. Amtrak needs to free the local trains from the shackles of the long distance ones.

Just the Facts put it nicely, which is why I agreed with him. How bout we just add your Megabus as another mode of transportation. Isn't the all out course to have as many modes available as possible? I mean, if you're really in a hurry to get down there, wouldn't it just be easy to take that regional flight down to DFW? Just cause slow isn't practical for you doesn't mean no one wants it. Now if your gripe is taxing taxing taxing based on the federal government subsidizing this service then I get it, but come on...
Amtrak's Heartland Flyer lost $43 per rider and when you add the train fare in to the figures it becomes very obvious how ridiculously expensive the Heartland Flyer is.

We can get far more bang for our buck in other ways. It would be cheaper to give a small amount od state money to Megabus who is faster and more frequent service; it’s significantly cheaper and has better destinations in our area and they could easily be improved.
The Heartland Flyer is wasteful spending when we already have more efficient transportation options.

Since the Heartland Flyer will no longer be eligible for federal funding to the tune of about 20 percent this becomes even more unpalatable to be spending State money in such a stupid wasteful way.

My guess is that you're against the streetcar as well. Do you work at ODOT?

Does WRWA only survive on rent, parking, and landing fees?

Do the interstates in Oklahoma survive only on the gasoline tax?

My guess is that you're against the streetcar as well. Do you work at ODOT?

No, I am not necessarily against streetcars or even Amtrak….

But I am against spending money in stupid ways.
When we already have a system in place it’s very wasteful to duplicate a transportation destination with an inferior product.

Time = money = more taxes collected, so I am far more likely to support streetcars and Amtrak where they help a lot more people save time by reducing congestion. The Heartland Flyer brings no benefit of note that can’t be done better by bus service. It would be much smarter to spend the money and help the thousands of daily riders who would use a central Oklahoma commuter rail system.

Does WRWA only survive on rent, parking, and landing fees?

Do the interstates in Oklahoma survive only on the gasoline tax?


Ok then, maybe Oklahoma should start subsidizing Stage Coach service to DFW.

No, I am just saying that every mode of transportation receives a subsidy, with the interstate highway receiving the most. With regards to AmTrack, it clearly needs to be reorgainzed as a regional rail provider and stop the long distance trains. Of course, the chances of that happening are slim to none which is why I would prefer the State contract with a someone other than AmTrack for the Heartland Flyer.

No, I am just saying that every mode of transportation receives a subsidy, with the interstate highway receiving the most. With regards to AmTrack, it clearly needs to be reorgainzed as a regional rail provider and stop the long distance trains. Of course, the chances of that happening are slim to none which is why I would prefer the State contract with a someone other than AmTrack for the Heartland Flyer.

I don't see why the state couldn't go with BNSF for the Heartland Flyer and then also use them for the local commuter rain from Norman to Edmond.

Also good point about the airport. Any airport with schedule passenger service gets access to a huge chunk of change for infrastructure (runways and such) that otherwise wouldn't be available. You also won't find the airports opt out of the money, even if they are able to.

Transportation is pretty much one of those needed services in this country. I agree that Amtrak needs to avoid the long range rail operations UNLESS they are selling them to a tour operator who is marketing it similar to a cruise.

All of you might be interested in this article.

Lynchburg-D.C. Amtrak route one of few to turn profit in 2011 - NewsAdvance.com : Local News (http://www.newsadvance.com/news/local/article_755493f6-8272-11e2-bd8a-001a4bcf6878.html)

Please show me something the city has started building and stopped part of the way through

OKC history is replete with examples, so he has reason to be concerned. Most only recall recent history and MAPS. Granted they built all of the projects, but most, if not all, were 1) NOT as promised, 2) NOT on time, 3) NOT on budget. We are seeing the same thing happening with MAPS 3 (Trails, Sidewalks, Senior Aquatic Centers, Convention Center, Transit Hub).

Some of the MAP’s money for schools has not gone as far as they planned and has caused significant changes to plans in some locations.

I found twice a day Meagabus service to Dallas for as cheap as $1.00 fare.
I found twice a day Meagabus service to Saint Louis for as cheap as $3 fare.

With a very limited amount of state subsidy help they could probably offer more frequent and faster service to more in state destinations, with better departing and ending points for a far cheaper price than the Heartland Flyer.

I found twice a day Meagabus service to Dallas for as cheap as $1.00 fare.
I found twice a day Meagabus service to Saint Louis for as cheap as $3 fare.

With a very limited amount of state subsidy help they could probably offer more frequent and faster service to more in state destinations, with better departing and ending points for a far cheaper price than the Heartland Flyer.

That is part of their normal promotions to attract new customers, build loalty and spreads the passenger load. if few are signed up yet it is cheep, it averages out to around twenty dollars

I found twice a day Meagabus service to Dallas for as cheap as $1.00 fare.
I found twice a day Meagabus service to Saint Louis for as cheap as $3 fare.

With a very limited amount of state subsidy help they could probably offer more frequent and faster service to more in state destinations, with better departing and ending points for a far cheaper price than the Heartland Flyer.

Even the rates that are not heavily discounted are very reasonable, more than reasonable even. My youngest who recently moved back from Dallas has made round trips on megabus and its affiliate partner for under 3.00 and up to a high (thus far) of 40.50 (upcoming RT bought on only 3 days advance purchase.)
So far even the high end ticket comes in at less than the RT gas necessary for an efficient four banger, plus no driving hassles and wi-fi most of the trip.

I found twice a day Meagabus service to Dallas for as cheap as $1.00 fare.
I found twice a day Meagabus service to Saint Louis for as cheap as $3 fare.

With a very limited amount of state subsidy help they could probably offer more frequent and faster service to more in state destinations, with better departing and ending points for a far cheaper price than the Heartland Flyer.

Ask yourself - how are they able to offer fares that low? Do you think it might be possible they are receiving some kind of federal assistance that you don't know about? I have a suspicion that the bus service is a front to gain carbon tax credits to off-set their other profit operations which would be heavy penalized in Europe.

Extension north to Wichita?

Wichita, KC, OKC mayors support Heartland Flyer passenger rail expansion through Kansas | Wichita Eagle (http://www.kansas.com/2013/05/10/2797715/wichita-kc-okc-mayors-support.html)

More on this from bizjournals:

Wichita, OKC, KC mayors sign joint letter of support for OKC-Wichita passenger rail - Wichita Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/blog/2013/05/wichita-okc-kc-mayors-sign-joint.html?page=all)

The idea being a full passenger rail link from Kansas City to Dallas.
Ok, it's just three mayors signing a piece of paper. But hey, look what the three tenors accomplished. :wink:


The article also links to another good piece about the Union Station in Wichita and what its new owners have in mind for it:

Union Station's buyers see vital 'connector' between arena, Old Town - Wichita Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/blog/2013/02/union-stations-buyers-see-vital.html?page=all)

Some nice photos of the station in the gallery.

http://assets.bizjournals.com/wichita/blog/union-station-hallway.jpg

http://assets.bizjournals.com/wichita/blog/union-station-exterior.jpg

http://assets.bizjournals.com/wichita/blog/union-station-hallway2.jpg

The better value for Oklahoma is through Tulsa. Yes, it may cost the state more per route miles but it's a win win for both big cities in OK. Kansas already has Amtrak thru the core of Kansas and it may be altered to run through Woodward in the future!

The better value for Oklahoma is through Tulsa. Yes, it may cost the state more per route miles but it's a win win for both big cities in OK. Kansas already has Amtrak thru the core of Kansas and it may be altered to run through Woodward in the future!

I think both options would be good, but in terms of connections for Chicago and beyond, Kansas is better. Kansas may already be served by Amtrak across the heart, but it's an overnight train, not very desirable for normal travel to KCMO.

By any reasonable standard Amtrak as it has existed is a failure.


Spending large amounts of money duplicating point A to point B transportation doesn’t make much economic sense in areas where we have thousands of miles of underutilized interstates. In places where there is big city congestion or where winter weather is a serious concern, then subsidizing passenger trains is justified. We would do far more good with our limited resource to divert most of the federal subsidies for Amtrak to various rail options in our nation’s city’s where congestion is a major problem and where far more people would be helped. Private bus companies that have operated for many years can respond with flexibility to fill the void left by Amtrak in most cases.

http://cagw.org/sites/default/files/...s%20Final_.pdf

XII. TRANSPORTATION

Eliminate Federal Subsidies for Amtrak
1-Year Savings: $1.4 billion
5-Year Savings: $7.1 billion

On May 1, 2011, Amtrak kicked off its 40th anniversary celebration. The
festivities did not mention the fact that over that period of time Amtrak
had cost taxpayers $37 billion, a figure that has now reached $40 billion.

The railroad was supposed to earn a profit when it was created by the
government in 1971, but the money never materialized.

In fact, a 2009
study found that taxpayers paid $32 in subsidies per Amtrak passenger in
2008.

By booking a month in advance, it is possible to buy a round-trip
plane ticket from New Orleans to Los Angeles and back for less than the
$437.82 that Amtrak loses per passenger on a one-way trip between those
same locations.

To make matters worse, The New York Times reported in
August, 2012, that Amtrak lost $834 million on food service alone since
2002, largely due to employee theft.

Even previous supporters of Amtrak have voiced skepticism. Former
Amtrak spokesman and rail expert Joseph Vranich asserted that “Amtrak is a
massive failure because it’s wedded to a failed paradigm. It runs trains that
serve political purposes as opposed to being responsive to the marketplace.

America needs passenger trains in selected areas, but it doesn’t need Amtrak’s
antiquated route system, poor service and unreasonable operating deficits.”

Even the so-called “Father of Amtrak,” Anthony Haswell, regrets his
involvement, stating, “I feel personally embarrassed over what I helped to
create.”

The total subsidies received by Amtrak over its 40 year history are a small fraction of the subisidies received by the highway, air transport, automobile, and oil industries annually.

Certainly Amtrak can be improved, but it is difficult to do with one hand tied by corporate lobbyists and the aforementioned industries and their shills in Congress and state departments of transportation.

The total subsidies received by Amtrak over its 40 year history are a small fraction of the subisidies received by the highway, air transport, automobile, and oil industries annually.

Certainly Amtrak can be improved, but it is difficult to do with one hand tied by corporate lobbyists and the aforementioned industries and their shills in Congress and state departments of transportation.

+1.

+1.

+2

The total subsidies received by Amtrak over its 40 year history are a small fraction of the subisidies received by the highway, air transport, automobile, and oil industries annually.

Certainly Amtrak can be improved, but it is difficult to do with one hand tied by corporate lobbyists and the aforementioned industries and their shills in Congress and state departments of transportation.

So are we going to continue that line as an excuse to waste even more money when there are in many cases clearly other more cost effective options that offer better and more reliable service?

In many cases it would be cheaper for the GOV. to buy the Amtrak passengers air fare.....
Wasting money on Amtrak is like special interest corruption in its self.

The total subsidies received by Amtrak over its 40 year history are a small fraction of the subisidies received by the highway,

The interstate highway was supposed to pay for itself as well - and that got blown out of the water less than 10 years after its creation, and heaven forbid Congress increase the gasoline tax to make up for the funding gap. However, Amtrak is still mismanaged.

So are we going to continue that line as an excuse to waste even more money when there are in many cases clearly other more cost effective options that offer better and more reliable service?

In many cases it would be cheaper for the GOV. to buy the Amtrak passengers air fare.....
Wasting money on Amtrak is like special interest corruption in its self.

When you agree to immediately end ALL subsidies for oil and gas exploration, then and only then will the discussion fundamentally change.

When you agree to immediately end ALL subsidies for oil and gas exploration, then and only then will the discussion fundamentally change.

then are we going to end all subsidies for all businesses ( and which subsidies are you referring to specifically)