This was before my time, but the man I used to work for told me stories about how him and his friends would hang out in some of the bars downtown and do bare fisted fighting for money in back alleys off of Broadway. I met a couple of the other gentlemen who participated in these events, but by that time they all were in their late 60's and early '70's. These were tough old boys. One of the men, who was a BIG man with huge hands the size of dinner plates, punched a guy so hard it killed him instantly. They spoke of many wild times downtown.


I never saw back alley fights but I'm sure they existed. Almost any other 'sport' you want to name certainly did. And I do know where some bodies are buried, figuratively speaking.;)

I went to NW Classen which, outside of Nichols Hills was the best school in town at the time. I was always a NW OKC girl and wouldn't be caught dead on the 'south side' (funny how times change) I remember when Reno street was declared the worst skid row in the USA, hands down (@ 68-69, I'm sure you could look up the article in the Oklahoman archives) and the Classen Circle was still there. How could they let that landmark be destroyed? But progress sometimes screws up every thing.

PS, my cousins, Joey, David and Terry Prescott went ot Putnam City.


Oh... I forgot to mention, .. Leigh baby, you asked about the Classen Circle. That was removed when traffic increased to the point that there were too many accidents in that location. So it was replaced with a standard design.

Oh... I forgot to mention, .. Leigh baby, you asked about the Classen Circle. That was removed when traffic increased to the point that there were too many accidents in that location. So it was replaced with a standard design.

Which ironically is now the most dangerous intersection in the state. Go figure.

Which ironically is now the most dangerous intersection in the state. Go figure.

Not true; doesn't even make the top 10 in OKC:

OKC releases list of top 10 dangerous intersections | KFOR.com ? Oklahoma City News & Weather from KFOR Television, Oklahoma's News Channel 4 (http://kfor.com/2012/11/20/okc-releases-list-of-top-10-dangerous-intersections/)

From the second line in your link.


The intersection of Belle Isle and Northwest Expressway is the dubious leader with the most accidents over the last several years.



and the list...


OKC’s top 10 most dangerous intersections:
1. N.W. Expressway and Belle Isle Blvd.
2. N.W. Expressway and Rockwell
3. N.W. Expressway and Portland
4. N.W. Expressway and N.W. 63rd St.
5. N.W. Expressway and Lake Hefner Parkway (east side)
6. N.W. Expressway and Pennsylvania Ave.
7. N.W. 39th Expressway and Meridian
8. N. MacArthur and Reno Ave.
9. S. Western Ave. and S.W. 59th St.
10. N.W. Expressway and Lake Hefner Parkway (west side)

From the second line in your link.



and the list...1. N.W. Expressway and Belle Isle Blvd.

The intersection above is not the old Classen Circle. That's where Northwest Expressway ends at Classen. The #1 worst intersection is at the Expressway and Bell Isle where you're coming off the long ramp at the interstate and merging with Northwest Expressway west bound combined with people trying to move over to make the entrance at Bell Isle Station and Penn Square Mall. It's the most harrowing few seconds. Terrible design. But it's not the old Classen Circle. That intersection is perfectly normal.

I see the (my) confusion now.

Classen Circle is now the intersection of Classen Blvd, NW Expwy, and Bell Isle Blvd (which is really just a 3 block stretch of Classen between NWExp and Classen Curve) BUT there is a second NWExpwy/Bell Isle intersection closer to Penn Sq. (At least on the map I was looking at).

Here it is before the cirlce was removed.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/1969classencircle.jpg

Classen Cicle is now the intersection of Classen Blvd, NW Expwy, and Bell Isle Blvd (which is really just a 3 block stretch of Classen between NWExp and Classen Curve).

Here it is before the cirlce was removed.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/1969classencircle.jpg

Maybe it's the street name issue. Somebody help me, the street right at that dangerous merge westbound at Penn Square and Bell Isle Station. Is that Bell Isle Station Blvd? I live right near here and see it all the time, TV stations did stand-ups at the bad intersection when this list came out, it showed just how dangerous it is. It is not the old Classen Circle intersection.

3346

Ok, it's called Belle Isle RD maybe? here's the sign.

3347

update: I just saw your edited post. I'm glad you figured it out, I was having a hard time explaining.

No worries Zookeeper. Thanks for setting me straight.

Maybe it's the street name issue. Somebody help me, the street right at that dangerous merge westbound at Penn Square and Bell Isle Station. Is that Bell Isle Station Blvd? I live right near here and see it all the time, TV stations did stand-ups at the bad intersection when this list came out, it showed just how dangerous it is. It is not the old Classen Circle intersection.

3346

Ok, it's called Belle Isle RD maybe? here's the sign.

3347

update: I just saw your edited post. I'm glad you figured it out, I was having a hard time explaining.

It's a Google maps error. Belle Isle Blvd extends from Classen Blvd (at the light near the Chili's) to NW Expwy(bad intersection). The most dangerous condition at the NW Expwy/ Belle Isle junction is from Westbound cars on NW expressway illegally turning right across the Westbound I-44 ramp traffic.

It's a Google maps error. Belle Isle Blvd extends from Classen Blvd (at the light near the Chili's) to NW Expwy(bad intersection). The most dangerous condition at the NW Expwy/ Belle Isle junction is from Westbound cars on NW expressway illegally turning right across the Westbound I-44 ramp traffic.

I think it's fair to say there at least five major problems at that intersection. When one of the TV stations was there they pointed them all out. Not the least is the size of the intersection and problems east and west. Then, as you mentioned, the westbound people trying to move across to enter Bell Isle Station and Penn Square. It's just a bad spot.

Derailed thread is back on track. Northwest Oklahoma City has it's share of problems, but they are further out which is the opposite of what it used to be. Now, the Northwest Expressway area between the Valliance Bank Tower and Wedgewood is very busy with shopping and dining destinations in a few square block area that's a key corridor with May Avenue. Some of those other problems west make me terribly sad.

I remember when the Woodlake, Lyrewood area, and all those apartments were built. Does anyone remember the multiple fires at Woodlake when it was being built? ...Big fires.... anyway, Northwest Okc was the place to be at one time. I had an aunt and uncle who lived out at Silver Lake, up on North MacArthur, before Ski Island was built up. I remember when they built the dam there. There wasn't much out there. MacArthur was a two lane intersection with a stop sign at NW highway. Rockwell & NW Highway was Farm land..

It's interesting to have wisnessed the rise and fall of that area.

I subscribe to Rudy Guiliani's broken window theory. When a neighborhood starts to go downhill, it needs to be addressed early or it starts to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone takes credit for why crime went down. Freakonomics suggest half was do to Roe v. Wade. Provocative theory growing that leaded gasoline may be responsible.

Lucent/Celestica, which owned the Western Electric plant when it closed, began winding down operations, preparing to shut it down in 2000; the Right to Work ballot was passed by voters in 2001.
Lucent was once the most widely held stock in the world which diluted its value to the large shareholders, especially the ones running the company. In the age of spinoffs, Avaya was born with the most profitable products that Lucent produced at the time, Lucent was left to die on the vine with old product and little hope. Among those not offered Avaya stock in the spin-off was the majority of Lucent/AT&T/Western Electric retirees whose retirement accounts were heavily invested in Lucent stock which became virtually worthless and then came the telecom bust. It still amazes me that whole episode never did generate more press than it did.


My parents still live in the house that my sister and I grew up in (lived there since 1965) and they have been considering moving because of what has happened in their neighborhood. There are only a few of the "old families" still there and many who moved in don't seem to take care of their properties as well as most people have for 48 years. My sister lives in Bethany and teaches in a PC school, the whole area has changed greatly since we went to school at West. All of those apartments built in the early 70's moved down market after the newer ones were built in the late 70's to early 80's and have moved even more down market in the years since to the point that the majority are Section 8 or some other kind of assistance. As others have stated, that changed the entire demographic of the area.

Lucent was once the most widely held stock in the world which diluted its value to the large shareholders, especially the ones running the company. In the age of spinoffs, Avaya was born with the most profitable products that Lucent produced at the time, Lucent was left to die on the vine with old product and little hope. Among those not offered Avaya stock in the spin-off was the majority of Lucent/AT&T/Western Electric retirees whose retirement accounts were heavily invested in Lucent stock which became virtually worthless and then came the telecom bust. It still amazes me that whole episode never did generate more press than it did.




My parents still live in the house that my sister and I grew up in (lived there since 1965) and they have been considering moving because of what has happened in their neighborhood. There are only a few of the "old families" still there and many who moved in don't seem to take care of their properties as well as most people have for 48 years. My sister lives in Bethany and teaches in a PC school, the whole area has changed greatly since we went to school at West. All of those apartments built in the early 70's moved down market after the newer ones were built in the late 70's to early 80's and have moved even more down market in the years since to the point that the majority are Section 8 or some other kind of assistance. As others have stated, that changed the entire demographic of the area.

i don't really think avaya got the "most profitbale porducts" ... the pr 2000 lucent sold off its consoblem was that lucent spun off or sold off all of its best divisions .. to maximize value agere systems (took the micro electronics arm) was spun off in 2002 and before that inumer products unit those things combine with the earning scandal (the misreported earnings for several years) crushed their stock and put them in a weak position ..

Hate to bump an old thread but was in Bethany today visiting the Deaconess wound care center. Drove around the old neighborhood and looked at the old house on 20th St. I was absolutely shocked at the area. Yards are overgrown, broken down cars in people's yards. What the hell happened to a once great town of Bethany?!?
I did not recognize that town today.

Hate to bump an old thread but was in Bethany today visiting the Deaconess wound care center. Drove around the old neighborhood and looked at the old house on 20th St. I was absolutely shocked at the area. Yards are overgrown, broken down cars in people's yards. What the hell happened to a once great town of Bethany?!?
I did not recognize that town today.

I wonder the same thing. While in the past 15 years downtown has seen a renaissance, the once desirable parts of town like Bethany, Warr Acres, the Village, etc have not been treated as kindly by the years. When I lived in OKC as a child in the 90s, I remember those being the desirable areas for families, much like Deer Creek and west Edmond is today.

Sprawl happened. When you keep building new and people think they want new and suburban living, people who can't afford the new move into the old. The process keeps occurring and maintenance isn't as good, because maintenance is expensive. We don't always budget for maintenance when we buy a house. Or an owner uses an older house as a rental property and doesn't maintain it as well as if he or she lived there.

Pockets like Crown Heights and Nichols Hills have never had that happen, but even places like Mesta Park and definitely Edgemere and Jefferson Park and Gatewood had that happen as well. Now that living closer in seems to be becoming more desirable again, and the architectural style of those areas is appreciated, renovation and renewal happens. Or, like is happening in SoSA, the less renovatable or less desirable are torn down to build new. I don't know if Bethany and the Village are close enough to city center to have that same cycle, but I hope so.

Sprawl happened. When you keep building new and people think they want new and suburban living, people who can't afford the new move into the old. The process keeps occurring and maintenance isn't as good, because maintenance is expensive. We don't always budget for maintenance when we buy a house. Or an owner uses an older house as a rental property and doesn't maintain it as well as if he or she lived there.

Pockets like Crown Heights and Nichols Hills have never had that happen, but even places like Mesta Park and definitely Edgemere and Jefferson Park and Gatewood had that happen as well. Now that living closer in seems to be becoming more desirable again, and the architectural style of those areas is appreciated, renovation and renewal happens. Or, like is happening in SoSA, the less renovatable or less desirable are torn down to build new. I don't know if Bethany and the Village are close enough to city center to have that same cycle, but I hope so.

If I had to guess, Bethany is 2 decades away from even the start of that Renaissance. The Village, with it's proximity to Nichols Hills and Quail Springs gives it a better chance, but it will be after the Urban Core starts to really get things under way.

I lived in Crown Heights in the late 70's and in Edgemere Park since the early 80's. Crown Heights, along with Edgemere Park, were both showing their ages during that period. Insofar as Edgemere Park is concerned, the revitalization seemed to crystalize when the Interstate highway plans were being drawn. Originally, ODOT had no plans for a burm or wall separating Edgemere Park from the Interstate. Neighbors learned of it, pooled both time and treasure to insist upon it, and eventually both were included in the plans. From that point forward, Edgemere Park Preservation, Inc., with great leadership and broad support, has grown stronger and more confident in its vision. The neighborhood has never been in better shape.

If I had to guess, Bethany is 2 decades away from even the start of that Renaissance. The Village, with it's proximity to Nichols Hills and Quail Springs gives it a better chance, but it will be after the Urban Core starts to really get things under way.

Is it possible to jump start that any? What is the Founders Tower District doing? Something slow and determined, but that might be a better and quicker path than hoping the cure finds its way to you. I just don't know if its something that is affordable on even a small scale.

My wife lived in the Putnam City school district and attended PCO until she went off to college in 2002. When she was in high school and even as recent as up to 2009 (that is when her sister graduated from the same school) she said it was great and there were never really problems. Now, it seems like the whole area has gone downhill. It seems like neighborhoods are cyclical in the time they get nice and then go downhill a little (or a lot). We bought our house in the Crestwood addition in late 2007 and even since then we have seen more young couples and other people buying houses in the area and fixing them up.

I graduated from OCU (a mile away from my current house) in 2002 and at that time, you were told not to go into my current neighborhood for fear of violence. We think it is because people are moving to Edmond and Deer Creek mostly for the schools. I think in about five to ten years, we will see the Edmond schools going downhill like PC and Bethany did because people don't care about their homes as much, just want to be in a good school district and don't care as much about working with their kids on homework, just getting the teachers to do it. JMHO.

I hate to sound like an old fogey, but people nowadays just are not committed to their neighborhoods and homes like they used to. And this is something that transcends OKC. I remember my own dad used to just slave away on our home, but there was a definite pride of ownership you don't see post-housing bust.

The reason you see more commitment in inner city neighborhoods is to fight off crime and creeping blight that may just be a block away. It kinda lights a fire under everyone's booty. In the burbs, however, there really is no such incentive because everything is so shiny and new at first. Also, I think a lot of people, especially with kiddos, think that they must buy a home or little Johnny will be a delinquent, and they simply have no clue about the responsibilities of home ownership. They let their homes decline, and when they decide to "upgrade" to the next ring of development that has been thrown up, they have to rent them out simply because they can't get what they paid for. Once you have a large contingent of renters (and I say this as one myself), there is simply no more pride in the home. And everything starts on its slow, steady descent from there.

Not so much Edmond, but you can go into a lot of newish neighborhoods not even 10 years old all over the metro built by lower end/starter home type builders (Home Creations, Rausch Coleman, you could probably throw in Ideal Homes) and they are already starting to look bad. We have a family friend who got out of a neighborhood on the Moore/SEOKC border that was a Home Creations neighborhood because it was starting to decline so much.

Edmond has some staying power for the mere fact it is at a higher price point, but it too may start succumbing to the same issues.

When people move into these starter home neighborhoods in Deer Creek or Edmond, that have a low price point, they don't realize that yes, they're moving to a nice school, but give it less than 10 years and that neighborhood is gonna be crap.

When people move into these starter home neighborhoods in Deer Creek or Edmond, that have a low price point, they don't realize that yes, they're moving to a nice school, but give it less than 10 years and that neighborhood is gonna be crap.

Propery values of starter homes in Deer Creek and Edmond are well over $160k per house. I don't see why that would go down hill.

Propery values of starter homes in Deer Creek and Edmond are well over $160k per house. I don't see why that would go down hill.

Maybe not the $250,000 homes or above, but I could see it happening to the homes at $200,000 or less and it is because the whole neighborhood is the same and they are all at the same price. In about 5-7 years once several people at once are trying to sell their homes, one person is going to sell for $5,000-$10,000 less than the next person, that will bring the comps (or comparables) in neighborhood down and people will be forced to either sell their homes for 10% less to get it off the market. Or, they will end up with is sitting on the market for 6-9 months (like one of my friends) because the homes around them are selling for less and they are not willing to drop the price as much as other people.

Exactly. There is Wynnchase and Deer Creek Village, and then you have Deer Creek Park nestled between them. In Deer Creek Village you have homes over $250k. In Wynchase similar price point (maybe a bit less). Deer Creek Park the homes start for $150k. You know right off the bat where that neighborhood is probably headed.

Exactly. There is Wynnchase and Deer Creek Village, and then you have Deer Creek Park nestled between them. In Deer Creek Village you have homes over $250k. In Wynchase similar price point (maybe a bit less). Deer Creek Park the homes start for $150k. You know right off the bat where that neighborhood is probably headed. Hopefully this will not be the case. If OKC can continue to attract white collar jobs like DFW then I see the values increasing and people buying and investing in these neighborhoods keeping up the values for the area. OKC does tend to let things go, unlike DFW where they will just bulldoze and start over, lol.

This was the way the housing crisis hit rock bottom on the west coast. Homes were selling for $300/square foot or more and they were completely leveraged. Once banks started foreclosing on homes in the area and selling them for $200,000 less than the house next door, those homes became comparables for any other house trying to sell. Whole neighborhoods were for sale or foreclosed on. Banks started calling the notes due because people owed more than they were worth and people were just handing in their keys telling them to start foreclosure. Then the dominos continued to fall.

Hopefully this will not be the case. If OKC can continue to attract white collar jobs like DFW then I see the values increasing and people buying and investing in these neighborhoods keeping up the values for the area. OKC does tend to let things go, unlike DFW where they will just bulldoze and start over, lol.

I don't think you will have too much of a problem with areas where the houses are at least a little different, but in northern Edmond, there are whole neighborhoods where the builders used the same brick/stone, same basic floorplan, same windows and all that is different is the trim paint and roof color. If there are two houses on the same street for sale with very little different between them, the buyer will pick the lower price home.

We bought our house in the Crestwood addition in late 2007 and even since then we have seen more young couples and other people buying houses in the area and fixing them up.We bought into the Cleveland neighborhood in 1967 so that our three sons could go to good schools; one of the three had to repeat third grade because the school system could find no record that he had completed it (at Longfellow!) the previous year. Vince Gill grew up just a block north of us and I used to hear him practicing most every evening. Manny Cruz was a couple of blocks farther north, just off Venice. It was a great area, with great neighbors.

It remained a typical middle-class neighborhood through the 70s but began declining in the early 80s despite efforts of the Cleveland Neighborhood Association to keep it up. We sold out in 1982 and moved to what was then far NW OKC (near NW 122 and Council). What were the far outskirts of town 30 years ago is now reasonably packed in, and hasn't yet begun that spiral of decline.

Just a week or so ago, I drove through the old neighborhood for the first time in many years, and was heartened to see it apparently rising once again.

The same thing seems to be happening to Crestwood; I lived at NW 20 and May from 1946 until the early 50s, when I moved out of my parents' home into my own apartment. They left the house to my youngest son when they died, and he stayed there until 1999 -- watching the area decline. Now, however, it seems to be coming back.

I think there's hope for such areas. It just takes time and a few dedicated crusaders...

We bought into the Cleveland neighborhood in 1967 so that our three sons could go to good schools; one of the three had to repeat third grade because the school system could find no record that he had completed it (at Longfellow!) the previous year. Vince Gill grew up just a block north of us and I used to hear him practicing most every evening. Manny Cruz was a couple of blocks farther north, just off Venice. It was a great area, with great neighbors.

It remained a typical middle-class neighborhood through the 70s but began declining in the early 80s despite efforts of the Cleveland Neighborhood Association to keep it up. We sold out in 1982 and moved to what was then far NW OKC (near NW 122 and Council). What were the far outskirts of town 30 years ago is now reasonably packed in, and hasn't yet begun that spiral of decline.

Just a week or so ago, I drove through the old neighborhood for the first time in many years, and was heartened to see it apparently rising once again.

The same thing seems to be happening to Crestwood; I lived at NW 20 and May from 1946 until the early 50s, when I moved out of my parents' home into my own apartment. They left the house to my youngest son when they died, and he stayed there until 1999 -- watching the area decline. Now, however, it seems to be coming back.

I think there's hope for such areas. It just takes time and a few dedicated crusaders...

Thanks for sharing your story with us Jim.

There still is a really good stock of Midcentury homes in NW OKC, which have a lot of fans. So I think it is just a matter of people wanting to get organized and stand up for their communities instead of bailing out the second they can. I am actually quite excited to see what the Windsor District and Musgrave Pennington association will do in a few years. I think the can serve as a nice blueprint for what other aging suburban areas can do to reverse their fortunes.

On a related note, when I eventually buy a home in the next year or so, I will definitely be buying in an area with an HOA or some sort of neighborhood association. Everyone bags on them, but seeing how quick nice neighborhoods can turn to slum here, they are pretty much the best defense.


Hopefully this will not be the case. If OKC can continue to attract white collar jobs like DFW then I see the values increasing and people buying and investing in these neighborhoods keeping up the values for the area. OKC does tend to let things go, unlike DFW where they will just bulldoze and start over, lol.

Hate to break it to you, but there are plenty of places (Farmers Branch, Garland, and even my hometown of Plano) that are experiencing the same issues. Also, this is happening when OKC is by most measures thriving. It is really independent of economic conditions. If neighborhoods are not built in a sustainable manner, it will eventually fall no matter what.

We bought into the Cleveland neighborhood in 1967 so that our three sons could go to good schools; one of the three had to repeat third grade because the school system could find no record that he had completed it (at Longfellow!) the previous year. Vince Gill grew up just a block north of us and I used to hear him practicing most every evening. Manny Cruz was a couple of blocks farther north, just off Venice. It was a great area, with great neighbors.

It remained a typical middle-class neighborhood through the 70s but began declining in the early 80s despite efforts of the Cleveland Neighborhood Association to keep it up. We sold out in 1982 and moved to what was then far NW OKC (near NW 122 and Council). What were the far outskirts of town 30 years ago is now reasonably packed in, and hasn't yet begun that spiral of decline.

Just a week or so ago, I drove through the old neighborhood for the first time in many years, and was heartened to see it apparently rising once again.

The same thing seems to be happening to Crestwood; I lived at NW 20 and May from 1946 until the early 50s, when I moved out of my parents' home into my own apartment. They left the house to my youngest son when they died, and he stayed there until 1999 -- watching the area decline. Now, however, it seems to be coming back.

I think there's hope for such areas. It just takes time and a few dedicated crusaders...

You should come back! I bought in Cleveland this year, and it's a really solid neighborhood. Crestwood is a few years behind, but it will get there soon enough.

I am actually quite excited to see what the Windsor District and Musgrave Pennington association will do in a few years. I think the can serve as a nice blueprint for what other aging suburban areas can do to reverse their fortunes.

I'm in the Windsor District, specifically Windsor Hills. While there are some "problem" houses, the majority of the homes are well-maintained, and we have an active neighborhood association. I'm encouraged by some of the younger people/families moving in. It's really a great area for those of us who still want a yard. . .15 minutes or so to most places, great diversity. Would love to see Windsor Hills Shopping Center "come back" with some neat places. . .there are some "anchors". . .Gophurm, B&B movie theater, Crest. I think it will happen. . .just hope I live long enough to see it!!

Sprawl happened. When you keep building new and people think they want new and suburban living, people who can't afford the new move into the old. The process keeps occurring and maintenance isn't as good, because maintenance is expensive. We don't always budget for maintenance when we buy a house. Or an owner uses an older house as a rental property and doesn't maintain it as well as if he or she lived there.

Pockets like Crown Heights and Nichols Hills have never had that happen, but even places like Mesta Park and definitely Edgemere and Jefferson Park and Gatewood had that happen as well. Now that living closer in seems to be becoming more desirable again, and the architectural style of those areas is appreciated, renovation and renewal happens. Or, like is happening in SoSA, the less renovatable or less desirable are torn down to build new. I don't know if Bethany and the Village are close enough to city center to have that same cycle, but I hope so.Love this. . . it's always marvelous to blame sprawl for problems. Never mind the people who choose not to mow and keep their yards up. Never mind a big part of the downtown renaissance being funded from the suburbs, lets blame it all on sprawl lol. . . I understand the basis of what you're saying, however, I think what happened to Bethany and The Village could've been prevented and can turn around. It is up to the people to want to make their town better just as people in Oklahoma City decided to pass MAPS and make OKC a better city.

You do have to put responsibility on the people as well. Why is it so hard to take care of your stuff?

But sprawl is a significant part of the problem. When the fringes of a city are considered the most desirable, then prices drop in places people aren't as interested in living. And, as prices drop, people acquire properties to use as rentals. Landlords are rarely motivated to take optimal care of their properties as their primary interest is monetary. Tenants don't have pride of ownership. Homes get older and fall into more disrepair as anything older requires more upkeep. It's only when older areas become more interesting to live near, the architecture is interesting or the location is optimal that areas become resurgent.

That's true. I'm in an neighborhood that is just about in transition. Lot's of older (I say older, I mean my parents' age, 55+) folks who take great pride in everything, and have their houses paid off. We're fine here for now, but when they start bailing that's probably when stuff hits the fan. I try to stay involved, as catty as being on an HOA board can be as a 33 year old, but I feel it's only one way to slow the trend.

In my neighborhood, the vast majority of the code enforcement issues come from houses being occupied by tenants with a landlord living far away. Often times, having your yard guy now every other week will suffice in late August, but definitely not this year...

I think a lot can be put on the greed of the towns and developers. When you approve apartments for the tax revenue flees eventually come with the dog.
Old apartments are OL over NW OKC and Bethany and right now you see new apartments being built in Edmond and Deer Creek.

I think a lot can be put on the greed of the towns and developers. When you approve apartments for the tax revenue flees eventually come with the dog.
Old apartments are OL over NW OKC and Bethany and right now you see new apartments being built in Edmond and Deer Creek.

Check Rockwell & Memorial area...3 new complexes in one square mile

Again, I think these homes and apartment complexes can be nice if they are kept up. If the people don't want to take pride in their community, then Edmond will end up just like Bethany is today.

One problem is the concentration of apartments in areas, when they start going downhill the slide is rapid. If they were more spread out they could probably sustain better values.

Me and the wife got out on the motor scooter for a little while on Sunday, and had the "opportunity" to drive NW 10th street from lake O east to Portland. It's been a while since I've been through that way, but BOY! ... what a toilet that section of town has become. I felt like I needed a shower after I got out of there.

It has nothing to do with downtown and everything to do with demographics.

For sure.

Section 8 and cheap apartments/housing.
Poverty and all that can come with it.
Long-distance landlords.
Aging houses and suburban white flight.

You do have to put responsibility on the people as well. Why is it so hard to take care of your stuff?

This is another part of the problem.

Recession, foreclosures, economic hard times... less money or incentive to maintain properties.

Homeownership is also a big deal. Homeowners want a nice neigbhorhood, not the slums. They want their kids in nice schools. People who are responsible enough to work, have a job, be able to afford a house, have kids, etc. want safe neighborhoods without the upkeep of extremely old cheaper houses. Cheap $50,000ish houses or cheap rental apartments/houses tend to mean rental or section 8 neighbors and bad schools.

I have little tolerance for being a homeowner and living near section 8, cheap apartments, etc. There are some apartments somewhat near me (there weren't when I bought the place!), but they are mostly upscale apartments near shops. I still don't like them. Most homeowners don't. Apartments mean more traffic, section 8, lower rents, noise, and are rarely good for property value.

Schools are why you find a lot of people moving to Edmond-- it's been this way for 20 years. Classen SAS is a great school, but it's in the hood, and it's a long commute.

Section 8, poverty, and similar nearby tend to make homeowners with pride want to move elsewhere. And most section 8 people don't have the money or motivation to fix up apartments/houses-- especially since they don't own the houses anyway. And no one who can afford to buy a house wants to live in the ghetto. If you live in the slums, you're concerned about your very safety-- not about how tall your lawn is or if your garden looks good.

Property value is a big motivation for people to maintain their properties. It's far more unlikely for someone with a $250,000 or $500,000 house to let their house fall into disrepair and look crappy. They have too much money on the line. If a person's house is only $25,000 or $50,000, there's a lot less incentive to maintain, upgrade, and repair the place since it's not worth much.

That's why you'll never see slums in the "good" parts of Edmond, OKC, Yukon, etc. The houses are worth $200,000 --- if a neighbor lets their house start looking run down, neighbors will complain quickly and loudly. You don't see that sort of pride among many neighbors in $50,000 houses. It just doesn't happen overall. People in poor areas have much more to worry about than lawns.

New houses nearby also helps appearance and property values. That alone has nearly doubled some Edmond property values over the last 20 years when parts of Edmond were farmland.

Other areas have flip flopped between being ghetto. In the, what, 70's, the Paseo was artsy and trendy. The 80s the Paseo was horrible. In the 90s, the Paseo was less bad. Now the Paseo is (yet again) up-and-coming and trying to be trendy and improve.

There are other areas that are "fine" but have ghettos nearby. I would say this applies to Paseo, Crown Heights, etc. and is a major reason why I would never live there. You either get old run down houses or fully renovated overpriced old houses. Old historic homes = maintenance nightmare. The schools out there are not good. Noise. Traffic. Cheap rental apartments nearby. Ghetto slums nearby. Plus, historic homes and the old neighborhoods just don't often have what today's homebuyers want: master bedroom downstairs with large walk-in closet and large master bathroom, at least a few other bathrooms in the house, nice newer kitchen, 2-3 car attached garage, etc. The houses I saw in Edgemere and Crown Heights had 1-2 bathrooms per house with no master bathroom, plus small master bedrooms, detached 1 car garage if any garage at all, old windows, not enough closet space, and so forth. I have no intention of buying and maintaining a very old home and have to share 1.5 old bathrooms with multiple kids, have no good nearby schools, have to park in a detached garage (what's the point), and ghettos nearby. Yuck.

I'll say that for someone who prefers urban living, IMO the death of suburbs is/was highly exaggerated. Lots of people simply don't care for dense urban environments. More importantly, cities' troubled urban school districts will always give families pause. Towns that offer good schools, solid (but not always cheap) real estate, a diverse tax base, some culture and arts, and at least some measure of white collar employment with simple access to other job centers will always be in demand. In this area, I can really only think of Norman, and to a lesser extent Edmond, that meet these descriptions. There are plenty of homes in both towns built in the 1960-1985 time period that look great.


I agree.

People forget that the suburbs and what it offers are what draw people to smaller cities like OKC.

Larger, newer houses with lower costs of living in the suburbs....

Good/decent safe schools...

Parks and family friendly safe areas...

Shops, malls, restaurants, school, work, etc. all within 5 minutes of your house.

The suburbs are quiet, family friendly, convenient, usually newer homes with adequate safe schools and large homes.

I certainly didn't move south to Oklahoma to deal with an urban h*ll of traffic, tiny overpriced apartments/condos, parking nightmares, old small houses, noise, and having to deal with public transportation or walking everywhere I go daily.

Seriously, if I wanted Central Park and to live downtown in some tiny overpriced urban loft apartment and walk to get groceries at Whole Foods everyday, then ride my bike to some overly hip trendy restaurant, I would be living in NYC now, not OKC.

Obviously nobody will change your mind about what you want. It is also obvious that many people are now trending away from your ideal and embracing an urban lifestyle. Your suggestion that OKC's suburbs are what is attracting people here is only true for some people and the continuing development of living options in and near downtown are extremely attractive for large numbers. Of course the suburbs are not going away but neither is the trend towards urban living.

Hopefully, the choice isn't between great suburbs OR a vibrant, urban downtown, but I'm pretty sure the goal is to have both great suburbs AND a vibrant urban downtown.

Classen SAS is not "in the hood". Gatewood UCD is a wonderful neighborhood with a great amenity in the Plaza District. I'm raising my family here.

Schools are why you find a lot of people moving to Edmond-- it's been this way for 20 years. Classen SAS is a great school, but it's in the hood, and it's a long commute.
It's very apparent that in spite of the negative publicity of the OKCPS, there is little impact on enrollment. People are definitely moving into the district in large numbers.

School district boasts largest enrollment since late '70s | News OK (http://newsok.com/school-district-boasts-largest-enrollment-since-late-70s/article/3892459)


More students are attending Oklahoma City Public Schools than at any time in the past 35 years, district officials reported this week.

Enrollment rose by 2.4 percent or 1,115 students during the first quarter of the 2013-14 school year, continuing a decadelong trend of growth. An estimated 45,773 students are in the district compared to 44,658 after one quarter last year, officials said.

I agree.

People forget that the suburbs and what it offers are what draw people to smaller cities like OKC.

Larger, newer houses with lower costs of living in the suburbs....

Good/decent safe schools...

Parks and family friendly safe areas...

Shops, malls, restaurants, school, work, etc. all within 5 minutes of your house.

The suburbs are quiet, family friendly, convenient, usually newer homes with adequate safe schools and large homes.

I certainly didn't move south to Oklahoma to deal with an urban h*ll of traffic, tiny overpriced apartments/condos, parking nightmares, old small houses, noise, and having to deal with public transportation or walking everywhere I go daily.

Seriously, if I wanted Central Park and to live downtown in some tiny overpriced urban loft apartment and walk to get groceries at Whole Foods everyday, then ride my bike to some overly hip trendy restaurant, I would be living in NYC now, not OKC.

Whatever. No one is forcing you to live in OKC. Perhaps you should join EdmondTalk.com and extoll the many pleasantries of your bucolic lifestyle.

Whatever. No one is forcing you to live in OKC. Perhaps you should join EdmondTalk.com and extoll the many pleasantries of your bucolic lifestyle.

I agree with some of what he is saying. People wanting to move somewhere specifically to live the "urban lifestyle" probably aren't going to choose OKC. However, the urban revitalization and gentrification we are experiencing is making it so that people have that option and younger people who want a vibrant community will no longer turn down a job offer just because its in OKC, something that would have happened a decade ago. A city that offers adequate urban amenities along with a low cost of living, good job market, and low crime is a winner.

Classen SAS is not "in the hood". Gatewood UCD is a wonderful neighborhood with a great amenity in the Plaza District. I'm raising my family here.Good point, but it's still all too close. Specifically, the area between Main and NW 16, from Western at least out to Indiana, still hasn't been gentrified much if one pays attention to the crime reports from that region.

Back in the late '50s I lived at 1421 NW 8; it was no Nichols Hills but my neighbors were all upstanding, respectable folk, and I never feared walking to the little mon-and-pop grocery in the next block. Today it seems that "the hood" has taken over there, and I hesitate to even drive through.

The rebirth of the Plaza district, and the widening of NW 10 between Western and Penn gives hope that this part of downtown will be reclaimed but it hasn't happened yet. It HAS happened to the blocks surrounding CSAS, though, and that's good.

I hate to say this, but if you hesitate to drive through any part of OKC, you're part of the problem...

I hate to say this, but if you hesitate to drive through any part of OKC, you're part of the problem...

I was going to let this go, but what the %^&$$ are you talking about? Jim was saying that he didn't feel completely safe driving through a neighborhood that he once lived in. The fact the "hood" has taken over the area is not the problem? The problem is Jim not feeling safe driving through there? In fact, you think because of that, he's part of the problem? Is this some kind of weird "diversity training" claptrap? Sometimes I think the whole fricking world has gone insane.

I can understand what he is saying but for the most part I wouldn't have a problem driving through there or maybe even buying there if I were to move back. My grandparents lived close to that area in the 70's, behind about where Mutt's is. Still driving through that area is not like it was driving down State Street in South Chicago in the 90's, that is really the only time that I have "felt" a bad vibe driving through an area.

I can understand what he is saying but for the most part I wouldn't have a problem driving through there or maybe even buying there if I were to move back. My grandparents lived close to that area in the 70's, behind about where Mutt's is. Still driving through that area is not like it was driving down State Street in South Chicago in the 90's, that is really the only time that I have "felt" a bad vibe driving through an area.

But what did he mean when he said if Jim didn't feel safe - he's "part of the problem?" It's like we're all supposed to celebrate rough neighborhoods? Adds to the "diversity?"

To some people, I can see where they think that area is "rough", especially if they have memories from when they lived there as a different type of neighborhood. Heck even my parents neighborhood is way different than when I was growing up and most would consider it "rougher" than it was 40 years ago. I don't get the "part of the problem" statement either as I don't think Jim is the likely demographic for a renaissance of the area. In fact I am probably on the high end of the age group that would bring that neighborhood back but I guess it is because of my field that I see possibilities in those old areas. Too many of my non-architecture/construction friends just see an "old neighborhood" and wouldn't think twice about it, even those significantly younger than I am. Many of those just think anything other than a brand new neighborhood as "rough".