Building a wall doesn't help. Even walled villages in medieval England eventually spilled outside the walls. The trick is to build places that people don't want to abandon in droves.

So the debate is how we retro-fit suburbia? That is interesting topic but the jury is still out on how to do it and if doing it is cost effective. I don't think it is and I suspect we will eventually pull a Detroit and start plowing it under.

You might find this interesting.

J_uTsrxfYWQ

So the debate is how we retro-fit suburbia? That is interesting topic but the jury is still out on how to do it and if doing it is cost effective. I don't think it is and I suspect we will eventually pull a Detroit and start plowing it under.

You might find this interesting.

J_uTsrxfYWQ

I'm certainly less experienced in this debate than you, JTF, but I think that Moore will take the lead on retrofitting suburbia. Starting with their new central park, Moore has the chance to embrace urbanism in the suburbs. Of course, Moore HAS to. They can't sprawl any further. They HAVE to make the most of their limited acreage. It's entirely possible and very likely that it won't meet the desired standards (I STILL love Sid's recommendations for how Moore can make the most of their new central park), but it won't take long before Moore really discovers that it can't grow more tax revenue -- it'll have to earn them. Although Choctaw's not in the same boat, it's on the verge of a very good chance that will probably turn into a learning opportunity (you know, what-doesn't-kill-you-makes-you-stronger-type of learning opportunity) with their new WalMart city center. Obviously it's not going to be right on the center of the target of where it could be, but their new ... what? City Center could develop into an urbanism oasis regardless of WalMart. It was suggested in another thread and dissed and shot down in another, but I think OKC should de-annex a lot. The fear is that we will become a land-locked city, but then won't we eventually learn that we really only have so much acreage that we can earn taxes on and we must make the most of them? If we can just sit it out and not make any bigger mistakes, OKC could survive and retrofit suburbia without I.M. Pei-style plowing it under. In my little ideal world, Moore and Choctaw proceed and see what they've got. With a little (or a lot, depending on how far off the mark they go) demolition, it'll become what it should. Again, Moore has no real choice. Isn't that what OKC and their OKC-city-limit-suburbs could do? Plant a seed of urbanism where there's a chance to do so logically and let people and private developers do the heavy lifting of making it work. It'd take a good hard look at OKC. Maybe somewhere around the AT&T plant, attempt to encourage a REAL lifestyle center -- not a huge one, but one that can set an example. Maybe do something with Shepherd Mall and urbanize it a bit. None of these should detract from any efforts to make the CBD a beacon of what we want OKC to be for urbanism, but siphon of just a little of the assets and effort to some of these areas. Then, in a few years when we are looking at Deep Deuce, MidTown and SOSA or eve HubCap Alley and Capitol Hill and saying, "Wow, Those are FANTASTIC -- now what?", you'd have a fledgling urban center at the AT&T Lifestyle center to direct your efforts to.

JTF: You've had some GREAT ideas for Midwest City and the Heritage Parks Mall area. Give us one more. Let's say you had a low-order clone that needed a project. You don't want to give him too many assets that you need to revitalize the CBD, but you're willing to give him some just to busy him productively elsewhere. Where are you going to put him inside the OKC City Limits to start preaching and proselytizing and maybe converting and selling ideas to developers to make that spot better for OKC? Is it in the as-yet-undefined NW OKC? Does he need to go to the Farmer's Market and help out? or does CaptDave have that covered? Does he start his mission in Captiol Hill? I-240 corridor? Does he just go to the belly of the beast and solve Crossroads Mall? I'm curious where you'd put your fictional missionary.

Or am I so miserably off the mark that we need to just bull-doze it all? I'm not baiting you. I'm giving you an easy way out.

Good stuff Dubya61. In my opinion the greatest opportunity at revitalization in metro OKC is Del City. They are at 100% build out and their only viable solution is to densify. Like you said, the easy money from "growth" is over for them. New developments in Del City will have to generate more tax dollars than they consume and the only way to do that is increase density.

So the debate is how we retro-fit suburbia? That is interesting topic but the jury is still out on how to do it and if doing it is cost effective. I don't think it is and I suspect we will eventually pull a Detroit and start plowing it under.

You might find this interesting.

J_uTsrxfYWQ

Yeah that too. Here's some what if for you. What would it have been like if we could have twisted CHK's arm to drop a building every few miles instead of all in one place (which isn't downtown, I might add). We both know most of what gets done over there isn't face to face.

JTF, just to understand, you want to do away with suburbia entirely? I like urbanism and it certainly has its place. But, in every great city I think there should be great suburbs that provide people with options. I love the suburbs because I have a nice open yard I can look out of, a nice big house, the overall environment seems more open and I think it is more relaxing to me. Now, I know there are benefits to living in an urban environment, but I like a city with options.

CHK missed s huge opportunity to build a place that was really special. For some reason they chose not to. The same thing happened near Tinker. They chose office buildings surrounded by a sea of parking when they had the foundation for one heck of a mixed use environment. The same now goes for UNP.

Meanwhile, they broke ground last week in Alpharetta on a $600 million mixed use project called Pioneer Sq. If only the people in OKC with money weren't stuck in 1960.

JTF, just to understand, you want to do away with suburbia entirely? I like urbanism and it certainly has its place. But, in every great city I think there should be great suburbs that provide people with options. I love the suburbs because I have a nice open yard I can look out of, a nice big house, the overall environment seems more open and I think it is more relaxing to me. Now, I know there are benefits to living in an urban environment, but I like a city with options.

That's great and you should be able to live that way, but you should also have a neighborhood urban cluster you can walk to that supports all your daily living essentials. Having a yard shouldn't also require you to own a car.

We might as well what-if about Devon too. They built a giant new central location for jobs in the middle of an area that has no housing and no real shopping. The work force either has to commute, abandon what is already built and/or build something else all over again. That's great for people who want to do that and not so much for everyone else.

People's job dictate their housing much more than the other way around. There is plenty of housing in the downtown area. Devon Tower didn't kill the suburbs, they just got old.

People's job dictate their housing much more than the other way around.

yep. I think we are in agreement about how important that is.


There is plenty of housing in the downtown area. Devon Tower didn't kill the suburbs, they just got old.

Nope, they didn't kill the burbs. Most of the Devon jobs were already downtown. Most of their employees commuted before and will continue to commute as long as they can afford to.

It's a missed opportunity to do something different. Instead, we will do what we are going to do with those jobs downtown.

I suspect that over time many Devon employees will be moving either downtown or in one of the downtown ajacent neighboroods (DD, Midtown, Bricktown, SOSA, C2S) as more housing comes on-line. With the addition of the streetcar and regional rail the urban core of OKC will become the most desirable location to live in the entire state.

I suspect that over time many Devon employees will be moving either downtown or in one of the downtown ajacent neighboroods (DD, Midtown, Bricktown, SOSA, C2S) as more housing comes on-line. With the addition of the streetcar and regional rail the urban core of OKC will become the most desirable location to live in the entire state.

That's what I just said in post 69.

That's what I just said in post 69.

If a person sees no problem with sprawl, what difference does it make to them if new housing is built at the existing core or at the suburban fringe?

That's great and you should be able to live that way, but you should also have a neighborhood urban cluster you can walk to that supports all your daily living essentials. Having a yard shouldn't also require you to own a car.Okay I thought you were completely against living the way period. I understand what your talking about now.

That's great and you should be able to live that way, but you should also have a neighborhood urban cluster you can walk to that supports all your daily living essentials. Having a yard shouldn't also require you to own a car.

This is kind of ideal, for me. One of the things I really liked about the part of Portland I visited(east-ish, I think) is that there were little "small town mainstreets" dotted along the main road that fed the area. Every few miles, you'd have some street side parking, a cafe or a sandwich shop, a few small retail places and frequently a grocery store.

Honestly, if we had some sidewalks, where I live would be pretty close to that. At the corner of May and Hefner, there's that shopping center with a few restaurants and some retail. Admittedly, the retail is kind of lame, but at least it's there. 122nd and May you have that Homeland and some more retail. The Homeland is one of the really bad ones, but at least it's there. If there was a convenient way to get there, I might shop at it a bit more. As is, I do wander over to the Hefner shopping center for bagels or the occasional game of laser tag with the kids.

Okay I thought you were completely against living the way period. I understand what your talking about now.

Imagine a Plaza District every mile or so. Give me some time to post a couple of related Ted Talk videos and you will get a better idea of what I envision.

Kent Larson: Brilliant designs to fit more people in every city

SM_hPk4rmMM


Here is one on tentpole density. Feel free to ignore the climate chnage stuff (I do).
Alex Steffen: The shareable future of cities

97T15vijRRs

If a person sees no problem with sprawl, what difference does it make to them if new housing is built at the existing core or at the suburban fringe?

Who are you referring to, urban planners, developers, business owners, people who might build one place or the other?

The question I was raising was new construction (with or without commuting) vs reuse existing without commuting by placing jobs at existing neighborhoods.

Certainly new construction and get rid of commuting is better than new construction and even more commuting. New construction with the plan to abandon what has been built and could have been used with a different plan is wrong by many measures.

Certainly new construction and get rid of commuting is better than new construction and even more commuting. New construction with the plan to abandon what has been built and could have been used with a different plan is wrong by many measures.

Back when I thought differently we were planning to build a house in the Great Sky subdivision in Canton, GA and I was going to drive 40 miles to work in Atlanta and 40 miles home. Talking with several people in the office I found that a good 40 people or so in our office (about 500 employees) lived in that general area. I asked what the likelyhood would be that the company could lease an office in the area so we wouldn't have to commute so far. It seemed like a good idea to me but apparently they already tried that and it didn't work. It seems that since people were already williing to drive 40 miles to the office they started moving even further away to place like Eljay to escape the sprawl of metro Atlanta and many employees ended up with 20 mile drives anyhow. Chasing the employee didn't work because the employee kept moving. I now know that chasing the employee (and customer) is what drove retail and companies out of downtown in the first place.

Back when I thought differently we were planning to build a house in the Great Sky subdivision in Canton, GA and I was going to drive 40 miles to work in Atlanta and 40 miles home. Talking with several people in the office I found that a good 40 people or so in our office (about 500 employees) lived in that general area. I asked what the likelyhood would be that the company could lease an office in the area so we wouldn't have to commute so far. It seemed like a good idea to me but apparently they already tried that and it didn't work. It seems that since people were already williing to drive 40 miles to the office they started moving even further away to place like Eljay to escape the sprawl of metro Atlanta and many employees ended up with 20 mile drives anyhow. Chasing the employee didn't work because the employee kept moving. I now know that chasing the employee (and customer) is what drove retail and companies out of downtown in the first place.

Yep. But you just completely undermined your unaffordable oil change argument. Which way do you want to go from here? How is it going to be before the end life of the decisions we have made and are making now?

Yep - like I said, that was back when I thought differently.

I have been in norman for the past 4+ years going to school, but I grew up in NW OKC around the NW expressway-rockwell-hefner area. I don't go back often since my family has moved away, but when I do, it doesn't seem like much has changed. However, I do hear from alot of kids currently at Hefner and PC North that the schools are getting bad. Granted, I remember fights and drug searches, but they make it sound much worse.

All of this has crossed my mind before though, and having grown up in one of the many 1970 era neighborhoods, I worry about what the area will come to be in 20 years. If homeowners stay and don't rent out their properties, I believe the area can stay nice. But I know it is alot more complicated then that. Apartment complexes are also an issue. I hate saying that, because i know that the majority of residents cause no harm. My neighborhood (Rock Knoll) though was a perfect example of how apartments (Britton Courtyard) can ruin a nearby neighborhood. My family had enough when there was a shooting at the end of our street.

One thing I do love about the area though is the massive amount of diversity. The fact that section 8 housing and 500k homes all are within the same school district was interesting, and it definitely helped expose me to things that have positively shaped who I am.

About PC schools though, I get the sense that they continue to have top notch teachers, which was my experience. It is simply the trouble brought in by kids who misbehave that is causing the issues.

I tried to read through the whole thread, but there was a lot, so I'm going to throw some thoughts out there...sorry if they've already been represented.

Even if we're only talking about the area NW of the Urban Core (N of I-40 and W I-44/I-235) that is such a broad stroke as to be meaningless. There are many really really nice areas on the NW side of the city and many really really bad areas.

If I had to categorize the most run down it would be in the box east of County Line/west of Portland/north of Reno/south of 23rd. And yes, it's getting pretty bad. There are other pockets like Wilshire/Rockwell, Penn/Hefner-122nd, Western/Britton.

The surrounded burbs like Bethany and Warr Acres are actually not that bad. Nothing great, but they maintain themselves well enough to stay consistent. It may be beneficial, as someone else alluded to/proposed earlier, to sell off some of the land to those burbs and let them take on the revitalization of those areas.

The area that OKC needs to really fight to maintain is the Putnam City North area. There are quite a few nice neighborhoods in the area (Warwick, Lansbrook, Blue Stem, Ski Island) that can provide plenty of opportunity to keep the area alive and well. But being a graduate of PCN, I've heard nothing but that it has gone downhill, and that concerns me for the viability of the NW side of the city south of Memorial. It's really not that far from the Urban Core, and long term, it seems the most likely place for good sustainable growth to occur as OKC gets bigger.

Leave these places alone at least we know where the criminals are. Just tear down the burnt down apartments and make that area titty bat row or whatever

Leave these places alone at least we know where the criminals are. Just tear down the burnt down apartments and make that area titty bat row or whatever

"titty BAT row?" . . . (would tearing down the burnt down apartments destory their habitat? are there any natural caves in the vicinity? are these animals still able to fly?)

(i nominate that for Best Typo of the Year . . . if, of course, it was a typo . . .)

Back when I thought differently we were planning to build a house in the Great Sky subdivision in Canton, GA and I was going to drive 40 miles to work in Atlanta and 40 miles home . . .

From the Classic Film "True Stories" by David Byrne (back around 1983) . . .
gjHwl5SRdCo

I am all for density and walkable neighborhoods, but I would never want to sacrifice the freedom of having a car to be at the mercy of public transportation to get around. I'm sure I am not the only person who feels that way.

I am all for density and walkable neighborhoods, but I would never want to sacrifice the freedom of having a car to be at the mercy of public transportation to get around. I'm sure I am not the only person who feels that way.

I've spent some time "at the mercy of public transportation". If a system is well designed, it's not a problem at all. And you can always keep a car in the garage for long trips/big grocery runs/etc. It just makes you not depend on it as much.

If we had reliable and well designed public transit, I wouldn't be getting ready to buy a 2nd car.

My son moved to Chicago a few years ago. They used to live downtown but moved to Wrigleyville last year. They walk, bike, bus, train or cab almost everywhere, in that order of use pretty much, as do we when we visit. But they kept one car when they moved there and use it for some trips still, like a trip to Ikea in the burbs, or a weekend out of town to a nearby burg. (They rent and have a spot to park but they have shopped for downtown condos. Parking spots are frequently priced separately and cost about $25K to $30K additional for a spot in the building's garage.)

They both grew up here but now when they get back to OKC they complain about all the time they have to spend behind the wheel to get around town.

My son moved to Chicago a few years ago. They used to live downtown but moved to Wrigleyville last year. They walk, bike, bus, train or cab almost everywhere, in that order of use pretty much, as do we when we visit. But they kept one car when they moved there and use it for some trips still, like a trip to Ikea in the burbs, or a weekend out of town to a nearby burg. (They rent and have a spot to park but they have shopped for downtown condos. Parking spots are frequently priced separately and cost about $25K to $30K additional for a spot in the building's garage.)

They both grew up here but now when they get back to OKC they complain about all the time they have to spend behind the wheel to get around town.

"Wrigleyville"? THEY didn't build an IKEA within walkable/sidewalk enhanced distance of Wrigleyville??

"Jeeves! Text the Rickshaw attendant immediately! I wish to make a trip to IKEA . . . You know, the one on the fourteeth floor of that tower where The Red Dog used to be . . . chop chop . . ."

Hard to believe isn't it?

This is really getting off topic but you know there was a bunch of talk the other day about how people won't change levels to shop retail. They have all kinds of businesses on upper and lower floors in Chicago. I believe there is a downtown Home Depot spanning several floors of a high rise and I don't think ground level is one of them. The local Whole Foods has a shopping cart escalator in it too.

/drift.

Disagree. The idea we should continue to pour money into downtown and let the rest of the city rot is appalling. Especially considering the vast majority of city revenue comes from the areas we're talking about, NW OKC. There's property taxes generated downtown but there's little to no sales tax. The residents (who don't live downtown and have no intention of ever living downtown) have agreed through maps to work on downtown to a point and for a reason. I don't think most of the citizens would agree to make that the long term policy nor support leaders who act in that manner.

NW 10th should be on the slate for rehab all the way to Council. The city started on it and worked outward to Penn. They need to continue. If not, I'd suggest maybe they deannex everything west of Western and north of 23rd and we'll use our tax dollars to rework it ourselves.

If you think you don't need downtown, you should probably leave the city limits. Edmond or Piedmont don't need downtown. Of course, downtown Edmond might make you angry, but it's still not too significant.

Hard to believe isn't it?

This is really getting off topic but you know there was a bunch of talk the other day about how people won't change levels to shop retail. They have all kinds of businesses on upper and lower floors in Chicago. I believe there is a downtown Home Depot spanning several floors of a high rise and I don't think ground level is one of them. The local Whole Foods has a shopping cart escalator in it too.

/drift.

So . . . I hope they designed-in chutes or whatever to handle forty story drops of 24'+ 2x12s in a safe manner. Not to mention other stuff, such as pallets of concrete mix . . . Are deliveries made by hoisting semi-trailers suspended from zepplins? Or do the Keebler elves take care of the details?

Never mind: All things are possible in Wrigglyville . . . =)

If you think you don't need downtown, you should probably leave the city limits. Edmond or Piedmont don't need downtown. Of course, downtown Edmond might make you angry, but it's still not too significant.

How the hell do you get that from his post?? He simply was saying that supporting downtown and ignoring NW OKC isn't a good idea.

Two things: First, I was a child of the 50s and 60s near NW 10th and Mac Arthur (both two lane streets back then). When I drive through there now I just want to cry. Second, as a Cubs fans I do hope anything is possible in Wrigleyville. Maybe this year...

How the hell do you get that from his post?? He simply was saying that supporting downtown and ignoring NW OKC isn't a good idea.

Both reading comprehension fail and ignoring the posts where I said specifically I get the need for a strong downtown. I also voted to subsidize it with my tax dollars. That's right,we voted to subsidize the downtown improvements with tax dollars generated elsewhere, not that downtown paid it's own way and sure isn't paying for the burdensome burbs like some would have us believe.

At the risk of repeating myself (on account of I'm old) . . . What if this thread had been titled something along the lines of: "What are the Wonderful Opportunities for The Northwest Quadrant of Oklahoma City?" rather than (paraphrased) "What [didn't happen] to NW OKC?" It may sound hackneyed and corny, but doesn't the way you approach a situation actually make a difference? (nah . . . scratch that . . . chalk it up to 'crazy talk' . . . =)

So . . . I hope they designed-in chutes or whatever to handle forty story drops of 24'+ 2x12s in a safe manner. Not to mention other stuff, such as pallets of concrete mix . . . Are deliveries made by hoisting semi-trailers suspended from zepplins? Or do the Keebler elves take care of the details?

Never mind: All things are possible in Wrigglyville . . . =)

I'm pretty sure if you can't walk out with it under your arm it gets delivered. No way are vehicles going to pull up one after another on a busy downtown street during regular hours and load up. I didn't go inside and check it out but I did ask my son about it.

Two things: First, I was a child of the 50s and 60s near NW 10th and Mac Arthur (both two lane streets back then). When I drive through there now I just want to cry. Second, as a Cubs fans I do hope anything is possible in Wrigleyville. Maybe this year...
I know just how you feel. For me it was another neighborhood but the same results.

These multistory stores are local to Wrigleyville. I don't think that's the Home Depot I remembered closer to downtown and it does have direct access at ground level. Looks like there might be some back parking but other than that, it's curbside. Most shoppers would be taking mass trans or walking and having larger orders delivered. The only time I visited a hardware store when they lived downtown we walked to an Ace Hardware and had some paint mixed and walked back to their condo. Were they doing a remodel, they would have had a delivery brought up the freight elevator. Same thing they do when they have bought furniture at Ikea in the burbs.

http://www.ettractions.com/storage/vertical_site/images/thumb/lincoln-park-neighborhood-chicago-home-depot.jpg

http://chicago.walmartcommunity.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/wrigleyville.jpg

I grew up in Bethany. Went to school at PCWest. Our first house we bought was in Brownsville, a nice neighborhood in Bethany.
I wanted to make Bethany work, not leave my roots. But the drive from I-40 to 39 on Council became too much for the wife. Everyday she'd say we've got to get out of here. I don't feel safe at the grocery stores. This is Bethany we are talking about.
Sure enough we took the great white flight to Edmond and built a beautiful house in Red Bud Canyon. I still drive thru Bethany and realize we made the right choice. PC West is now one of the poorest schools in the state, I think they have close to 90% government assisted breakfasts.
It's too simple to say the apartments killed Bethany but they sure didn't help. I really don't recognize that town from where it was 15 years ago.

I grew up in War Acres, and have lived in the Okc area all my life. I went to Putnam City Schools, and gratuated from PC West. My dad worked for Western Electric for 38 years and moved here in 1958. He worked in the WE plant when it was over on 39th Between Portland and Tulsa, before the plant on Reno & Council was built.

Back in the 60's the the 10th street corridor between Meridian and Council was already on a down hill slide, and was known as a rough area. But back in the trees, on both sides of 10th street were, and still are a lot of nice homes built before the 60's back when that area was all rural.

If you live right the Bethany or warr acres police stations and are willing and capable of homeschooling your kids there's not a better place to live here. Your kids can walk around the neighborhood and to the park just like we did when we were kids especially around the warr acres station. I'm always seeing 10 to 20 kids running around outside school hours I see that no where else around town unless there are a bunch of adults around

What happened?

Section 8 apartments took over the area, after it was too crime ridden, the apartments were abandoned, residents moved from 10th to the burb's in areas on the nw side like 122nd/penn, lyrewood area, and britton/rockwell. Yes, the crime followed.

The crime is pretty much concentrated into those low-income housing areas. Being a resident of NW OKC, I don't really see a crime problem.

The crime is pretty much concentrated into those low-income housing areas. Being a resident of NW OKC, I don't really see a crime problem.

Except if you live in Ward One and see what's happening in these outer areas, you would be very concerned. The criminals in these apartments spill into the neighborhoods surrounding them and steal during the day, vandalize cars at night, congregate in large groups and intimidate people. It's all forcing people to flee the entire area and home prices plummet and then those entire neighborhoods are ghettos that were very nice not that long ago. During the years of zero down minority targeting mortgages these neighborhoods went to hell. Those pockets are getting bigger and that's what scares alot of people. Ask around about the student populations at the PC high schools and the large percentage of transient students from nearby apartments and crummy housing. It's all sad but it's a valid concern.

Wow. So frustrating time and again to pen a lengthy response only to have it erased and/or be told "I can't perform this action because I'm not logged in" even though I've logged out, logged in, and re-written three times. It finally posts and it only posts a portion of it. You'll have to just take my last post and imagine the rest. I promise I was pithy and intelligent :) Good night.

I get that too. I finally started composing longer posts in Word or Notepad and then copy and paste them here.

Except if you live in Ward One and see what's happening in these outer areas, you would be very concerned. The criminals in these apartments spill into the neighborhoods surrounding them and steal during the day, vandalize cars at night, congregate in large groups and intimidate people. It's all forcing people to flee the entire area and home prices plummet and then those entire neighborhoods are ghettos that were very nice not that long ago. During the years of zero down minority targeting mortgages these neighborhoods went to hell. Those pockets are getting bigger and that's what scares alot of people. Ask around about the student populations at the PC high schools and the large percentage of transient students from nearby apartments and crummy housing. It's all sad but it's a valid concern.

On either side of my neighborhood, you'll find section 8 apartments. What you're claiming happens just isn't happening.

That's way overblown. I live in Ward 1 in a very safe and stable neighborhood. Here's a crime map of OKC.

Oklahoma City crime rates and statistics - NeighborhoodScout (http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ok/oklahoma-city/crime/)

That's way overblown. I live in Ward 1 in a very safe and stable neighborhood. Here's a crime map of OKC.

Oklahoma City crime rates and statistics - NeighborhoodScout (http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ok/oklahoma-city/crime/)


Looks like a solicitation to me. You can get that information for free, without having to subscribe to anything.

Oklahoma City Neighborhood Alliance Neighborhood Alliance (http://www.nacok.org/CrimeReports/index.jsp)

Or the Oklahoma City Police web site City of Oklahoma City | Police (http://www.okc.gov/okcpd/crimeinfo/crimestats.html)

It's a known fact that neighborhoods that surround section 8 apartments have a higher crime rate and lower property values. Doesn't matter what ward their in.

Agreed. You can go to many websites and find out the same thing as what is represented in the map I linked, that NW Oklahoma City is a pretty safe place. It isn't anywhere near the black hole of crime some people have portrayed it as. My neighborhood in Ward 1 that a poster up thread described as a combat zone is far closer to the safest neighborhoods in OKC than the least safe. Yes, as I said before, the city needs to get involved in cleaning up the derelict apartments along 10th street.

http://imageshack.us/a/img405/483/nwokc.jpg

A few days ago, I got the chance to take a look at some vacant mid-century homes that are currently up for sale. One of them was near NW 10th and Rockwell. The house itself was really cool-- great landscaping in both the front and back yard, nice facade, great floor plan. It looked to be in decent shape for the most part (except that the front door had obviously been kicked in at some point). Most of the other houses in the immediate neighborhood also looked like they were well-kept (or at least, not poorly kept).

The rest of the surrounding area, though? It looked like a demilitarized zone.

Driving east on NW 10th from MacArthur to Rockwell was one of the most depressing things I've done in a long time. There's very little retail to speak of-- it seems to be nothing but 1970s apartment complexes, several of which are boarded up and rotting, some with entire units that have been completely burnt out!

In high school, I had a friend who lived in the NW 19th and MacArthur area. Back in the late 90s and early 2000s, the area wasn't bad. It wasn't great either, but it was certainly better than it is now.

My question is: What happened here? I mean, pretty much everything north of I-40 and west of I-35 is rundown now. Does it have something to do with the downtown revitalization? Is it because everyone moved to Moore/SW OKC? What causes whole areas to decline so rapidly? Why did they build so many apartments there in the first place?

That area used to be pretty swank back in the 70's but as we all know, low-rent apartments mean (EVENTUAL)instant slum. When I lived in OKC, (1952-1976) Rockwell and west was cow patures, then nice housing and eventually the ever-popular apartment complex. This was before we knew about instant slums and I'm sorry to hear it's gone that way.

I grew up in War Acres, and have lived in the Okc area all my life. I went to Putnam City Schools, and gratuated from PC West. My dad worked for Western Electric for 38 years and moved here in 1958. He worked in the WE plant when it was over on 39th Between Portland and Tulsa, before the plant on Reno & Council was built.

Back in the 60's the the 10th street corridor between Meridian and Council was already on a down hill slide, and was known as a rough area. But back in the trees, on both sides of 10th street were, and still are a lot of nice homes built before the 60's back when that area was all rural.

I went to NW Classen which, outside of Nichols Hills was the best school in town at the time. I was always a NW OKC girl and wouldn't be caught dead on the 'south side' (funny how times change) I remember when Reno street was declared the worst skid row in the USA, hands down (@ 68-69, I'm sure you could look up the article in the Oklahoman archives) and the Classen Circle was still there. How could they let that landmark be destroyed? But progress sometimes screws up every thing.

PS, my cousins, Joey, David and Terry Prescott went ot Putnam City.

I grew up in Bethany. Went to school at PCWest. Our first house we bought was in Brownsville, a nice neighborhood in Bethany.
I wanted to make Bethany work, not leave my roots. But the drive from I-40 to 39 on Council became too much for the wife. Everyday she'd say we've got to get out of here. I don't feel safe at the grocery stores. This is Bethany we are talking about.
Sure enough we took the great white flight to Edmond and built a beautiful house in Red Bud Canyon. I still drive thru Bethany and realize we made the right choice. PC West is now one of the poorest schools in the state, I think they have close to 90% government assisted breakfasts.
It's too simple to say the apartments killed Bethany but they sure didn't help. I really don't recognize that town from where it was 15 years ago.

I've talked about this before but will repeat it here as well...

I graduated from PC in 1978 and grew up near 63rd & Meridian, right near Rollingwood Elementary. In the 60's and 70's, PC Schools were the best in the state and the NW sector of OKC was the nicest area around.

I keep the database of my high school class (900 strong!) and the vast majority of my classmates who still live in Central OK are in the Edmond school district now.

In just one generation, that huge area of town went from the best to a place where even those that grew up there (like Rom) have fled for Edmond.


We spend a ton of time here talking about the urban core but the truth is that this previously very nice area has quietly gone way down hill. Makes me incredibly sad every time I visit.

I've talked about this before but will repeat it here as well...

I graduated from PC in 1978 and grew up near 63rd & Meridian, right near Rollingwood Elementary. In the 60's and 70's, PC Schools were the best in the state and the NW sector of OKC was the nicest area around.

I keep the database of my high school class (900 strong!) and the vast majority of my classmates who still live in Central OK are in the Edmond school district now.

In just one generation, that huge area of town went from the best to a place where even those that grew up there (like Rom) have fled for Edmond.


We spend a ton of time here talking about the urban core but the truth is that this previously very nice area has quietly gone way down hill. Makes me incredibly sad every time I visit.

My dear Pete, you seem to be an old timer too. I haven't been back since the late 80's but I know a lot has changed. When I was there OKC was a cow town, a BIG cow town but a cow town nevertheless (you wanted culture, go to Tulsa) Downtown was on a downward slide by the early 60's and even worse after Shepards Mall was built. Everybody went north and west and with Curtis P Harris as county attorney and old Gaylord keeping us down what was supposed to become a major convention center failed because you couldnt get liquor by the drink. I always thought Gaylord cost OKC it's major chance to shine. He owned the paper and controlled everything. He was hard shelled baptist or some other restrictive religion and it's a wonder The City is still there. It makes me proud to know she's still going strong.

The crime is pretty much concentrated into those low-income housing areas. Being a resident of NW OKC, I don't really see a crime problem.

Well, Midtowner, you know what they say. A democrat is a republican that's never been falsely arrested and a republican is a democrat that's never been over taxed and seeing somebody build a structure that blocks your view of the boat dock will turn you into an environmentalist overnight.:dance:

I went to NW Classen which, outside of Nichols Hills was the best school in town at the time. I was always a NW OKC girl and wouldn't be caught dead on the 'south side' (funny how times change) I remember when Reno street was declared the worst skid row in the USA, hands down (@ 68-69, I'm sure you could look up the article in the Oklahoman archives) and the Classen Circle was still there. How could they let that landmark be destroyed? But progress sometimes screws up every thing.

PS, my cousins, Joey, David and Terry Prescott went ot Putnam City.

I remember when Reno was pretty bad. Remember those flop houses that used to be across from the bus station, and the bums sleeping on the side walks? I don't recall the rating as the worst skid row though. During the 60's and 70's we used to travel up to Chicago a couple times a year to visit my grand parents. We would get on the train here in Okc and get off at Union station Chicago. Okc had nothing on some of the things I saw in downtown Chicago.

I remember when Reno was pretty bad. Remember those flop houses that used to be across from the bus station, and the bums sleeping on the side walks? I don't recall the rating as the worst skid row though. During the 60's and 70's we used to travel up to Chicago a couple times a year to visit my grand parents. We would get on the train here in Okc and get off at Union station Chicago. Okc had nothing on some of the things I saw in downtown Chicago.

Yes indeed I remember those flops. Two story walk-ups, 1 restroom in back. About $1 a day. How about on the corner of Broadway and Sheridan? The Talk of the Town bar?? Tradewinds across the street? Awesome times those were. Agreed Chi has to be bad but OKC was outrageous. There was an Indian bar just east of the bus station too. Never went in there but once and was with an indian girl friend or I wouldn't have dared.
Those were wild times.

This was before my time, but the man I used to work for told me stories about how him and his friends would hang out in some of the bars downtown and do bare fisted fighting for money in back alleys off of Broadway. I met a couple of the other gentlemen who participated in these events, but by that time they all were in their late 60's and early '70's. These were tough old boys. One of the men, who was a BIG man with huge hands the size of dinner plates, punched a guy so hard it killed him instantly. They spoke of many wild times downtown.