Boren though will allow wine spritzers before beer, IMHO.

I have got to admit I laughed out loud and I don't ever do that at the computer. :)

I think you and other likeminded people can rest assured that the OU football drinking policy will not change as long as Boren is around to have a voice in what goes on at OU.

again it already changed some this year .. in both the football games and at the LNC pregame ... it very well could change in the future

To your point….. During the 1990’s during the very worst stretch of OU football in history OU’s average attendance never dropped below the 69,000 mark in a roughly 75,000 seat stadium. That’s standing the test of time and shows what our culture is. Today there is a lengthy waiting list to buy OU season tickets.

How hard is it to by a Thunder season ticket during these better times? I don’t know.

I know that the "official" attendance during those years was around 69K, but having attended a few of those games I can assure you there were plenty of times when there was nowhere near that number. There was one game in particular - I wish I could remember the opponent, but I can't - but the memory of the crowd (or lack thereof) was so incredibly vivid. I got a ticket outside the gate for $5, and sat alone in a chairback seat on the 50 yardline in the west upper deck, and looked around a stadium with the endzones nearly vacant, and a crowd that looked and sounded more like a high school crowd. As a Sooner fan since I was a little kid, it was heartbreaking to see how the program had disintegrated at that time.

As far as the OU season ticket waiting list goes...well, that's a thing that's grown to one of mythic proportions. Yeah, there's a season ticket list, and its been around for years. The majority of those "waiting" on the list, however, include folks who used to be on and want to rotate to better seats, or involve multiple entries from the same family or groups, and so on, such that the "real" wait isn't quite as forboding as it might seem. The last time I checked a (relatively) modest contribution to the Sooner Club can still get you season tickets immediately, so if one were of a mind and had the $ resources to get season tickets, they're available.

Considering that you can routinely pick up game-day tickets for well under face value, I've felt for a long time that the "season ticket waiting list" was a bit of a red herring in terms of measuring demand. Yeah, its there, but in terms of actual, real individuals teeming at the gate for tickets....not so much.

All that is to say that the point of the Thunder's success long term as it relates to future ticket sales is a point very well taken. When KD's and/or RW's contract(s) are up, granted several years down the road, things locally could change quite a bit. We'll see. And how all this, ultimately ties to the difficulty in supporting an NFL franchise, with more home dates and (much) higher tickets, and higher parking costs...the math isn't hard to do.

I know that the "official" attendance during those years was around 69K, but having attended a few of those games I can assure you there were plenty of times when there was nowhere near that number. There was one game in particular - I wish I could remember the opponent, but I can't - but the memory of the crowd (or lack thereof) was so incredibly vivid. I got a ticket outside the gate for $5, and sat alone in a chairback seat on the 50 yardline in the west upper deck, and looked around a stadium with the endzones nearly vacant, and a crowd that looked and sounded more like a high school crowd. As a Sooner fan since I was a little kid, it was heartbreaking to see how the program had disintegrated at that time.

As far as the OU season ticket waiting list goes...well, that's a thing that's grown to one of mythic proportions. Yeah, there's a season ticket list, and its been around for years. The majority of those "waiting" on the list, however, include folks who used to be on and want to rotate to better seats, or involve multiple entries from the same family or groups, and so on, such that the "real" wait isn't quite as forboding as it might seem. The last time I checked a (relatively) modest contribution to the Sooner Club can still get you season tickets immediately, so if one were of a mind and had the $ resources to get season tickets, they're available.

Considering that you can routinely pick up game-day tickets for well under face value, I've felt for a long time that the "season ticket waiting list" was a bit of a red herring in terms of measuring demand. Yeah, its there, but in terms of actual, real individuals teeming at the gate for tickets....not so much.

All that is to say that the point of the Thunder's success long term as it relates to future ticket sales is a point very well taken. When KD's and/or RW's contract(s) are up, granted several years down the road, things locally could change quite a bit. We'll see. And how all this, ultimately ties to the difficulty in supporting an NFL franchise, with more home dates and (much) higher tickets, and higher parking costs...the math isn't hard to do.

Having personally attended every home game until the final snap during the 90’s I also know that there were plenty of times when there was nowhere near the 69,000. But 69,000 was the announce average attendances for a signal season at its very worst.

The game that you are having trouble remembering could have been the 1997 OU- A&M game that was played at night in about 15 degree weather. I was one of about 3000 to 4000 fans who stayed until the very end. It was the worst OU crowd I have ever seen.

According to radio interviews done by Joe C this past summer there are about 20,000 request for OU season tickets on the waiting list. It is not normally difficult to buy a cheap ticket to about 90% of home games. You can move up the list and get tickets by making a $100 tax deductible donation to the Sooner Club. However you would get a lot better seating location by donating more.

In spite of the official waiting list I do not feel that it justifies a major stadium expansion.
OU will add a small amount of stadium capacity when they rebuild its press box.

Having personally attended every home game until the final snap during the 90’s I also know that there were plenty of times when there was nowhere near the 69,000. But 69,000 was the announce average attendances for a signal season at its very worst.

The game that you are having trouble remembering could have been the 1997 OU- A&M game that was played at night in about 15 degree weather. I was one of about 3000 to 4000 fans who stayed until the very end. It was the worst OU crowd I have ever seen.


The game I'm remembering was a day game. I know I was not at that frozen A&M debacle.



According to radio interviews done by Joe C this past summer there are about 20,000 request for OU season tickets on the waiting list. It is not normally difficult to buy a cheap ticket to about 90% of home games. You can move up the list and get tickets by making a $100 tax deductible donation to the Sooner Club. However you would get a lot better seating location by donating more.

In spite of the official waiting list I do not feel that it justifies a major stadium expansion.
OU will add a small amount of stadium capacity when they rebuild its press box.

Yeah, I've been buying cheap tickets on game day for the last 25 years, and I've paid more than face exactly once - 2000 Nebraska - so that's why I've always kinda looked at the "waiting list" with a jaundiced eye. There aren't 20K people down there every game day buying up every ticket in existence. Agree completely that the "waiting list" doesn't begin to justify any big expansion.

Anyway, didn't mean to derail the thread. Just saying (and in an indirect way agreeing) that the success of the team on the field plays no small part in determining its financial success as the ticket price increases, and that's a "bumpy road" we've not yet had to trod with the Thunder. Back when the only thing in OKC was the 89ers, ol' Bing and Patty Cox Hampton became masterful marketeers of "entertainment baseball" as a family outing rather than focusing on the wins and losses. And it worked. But that's much harder to do with a real, top-level pro sports franchise.

Still no takers on the legality of OU selling alcohol at OMS during home games?? Surely someone out there knows for sure.. :)

The game I'm remembering was a day game. I know I was not at that frozen A&M debacle.



Yeah, I've been buying cheap tickets on game day for the last 25 years, and I've paid more than face exactly once - 2000 Nebraska - so that's why I've always kinda looked at the "waiting list" with a jaundiced eye. There aren't 20K people down there every game day buying up every ticket in existence. Agree completely that the "waiting list" doesn't begin to justify any big expansion.

Anyway, didn't mean to derail the thread. Just saying (and in an indirect way agreeing) that the success of the team on the field plays no small part in determining its financial success as the ticket price increases, and that's a "bumpy road" we've not yet had to trod with the Thunder. Back when the only thing in OKC was the 89ers, ol' Bing and Patty Cox Hampton became masterful marketeers of "entertainment baseball" as a family outing rather than focusing on the wins and losses. And it worked. But that's much harder to do with a real, top-level pro sports franchise.

Still no takers on the legality of OU selling alcohol at OMS during home games?? Surely someone out there knows for sure.. :)

Derail as much as you want... before you did there was as much wishful thinking in here as there is on the Mystery Tower thread

Derail as much as you want... before you did there was as much wishful thinking in here as there is on the Mystery Tower thread

No one REALLY wants to close that Mystery Tower thread, either. We should combine the two. Here's just the speculation that could kick off the next frenzy. You know how there's the rumor going around that some multi-national company will build a new headquarters here in OKC? Well, I was at dinner the other night and was talking to a friend who's cousin works for the NFL and he was saying that the buzz around the NFL water cooler is that the Jags are going to London full time, the Texans are moving to Mexico City, and the league (ITSELF!) was going to build a mostrous tower / stadium on the Cotton Coop site that will house the league, dwarf Devon AND house the OKC Tycoons (the new leagued owned team nee STL Rams).

No timeline, though. Take it for what it's worth.

No one REALLY wants to close that Mystery Tower thread, either. We should combine the two. Here's just the speculation that could kick off the next frenzy. You know how there's the rumor going around that some multi-national company will build a new headquarters here in OKC? Well, I was at dinner the other night and was talking to a friend who's cousin works for the NFL and he was saying that the buzz around the NFL water cooler is that the Jags are going to London full time, the Texans are moving to Mexico City, and the league (ITSELF!) was going to build a mostrous tower / stadium on the Cotton Coop site that will house the league, dwarf Devon AND house the OKC Tycoons (the new leagued owned team nee STL Rams).

No timeline, though. Take it for what it's worth.

If you want to start a rumor don't use the Jags and the Texans, they have some of the longest in the NFL and there are cheaper teams to buy and move.

I'm not sure an NFL stadium is a "terrible idea." I was thinking more along the lines of how much the potential income the city could come with it. Just a single NFL season has the potential to make the city make uppers of 100 million per season for the surrounding areas (probably more). Plus the other things you could draw. (bowl game, concerts, potential site of some game for the FIFA world cup should it come back to the US, etc.) Not to mention naming rights.

The one thing that's been true of basically every major league city (and we saw it with Bennett and co), it's that you're going to need a private person('s) to step up and take it upon themselves to start the process. Private funding can do wonders should people feel the need and want to step up. Devon has been awesome so far. If others do what their doing the possibilities could be endless for this city.

As far as support goes I honestly believe we WOULD support it. What sports team here in Oklahoma doesn't have am incredible fan base? You can't tell me it wouldn't be supported. Also it's not like we're talking 43 home games a year like the NBA. It would be about 8 regular season 2 pre-season and however many post season games. Another thing people also say is that there wouldn't be enough people in OKC to support it. Well I don't think just people from OKC are going to be the only ones coming. Two thirds of the Oklahoma population (over 2 million) live within 100 miles. There would never be a conflict of interest (games on the same night) because college football is on saturdays and NFL is on Sundays/Mondays. Just as long as the Thunder and the NFL team don't schedule games on the one Monday night game the team would get. To me if your going to build any kind of stadium even for soccer it couldn't be a small one. Why waste all that money on small when you could potentially go big to an NFL team.

To sum it all up I really believe it is possible, just not in the near future. Not until some group steps up. Just throwing out ideas though! I think a perfect location would be in the site where the big rock climbing places is on the corner of shields and I-40 (Where the mills/barns are) I feel like that would be an amazing place for a stadium.

file:///Users/sthompson/Desktop/Screen%20Shot%202013-02-14%20at%203.25.44%20PM.png

Make it stop. This is not realistic. Not now, not in the next 25 years. NFL teams need more sponsors than Thunder have. We're already stretching our sponsors thin. What corporations are going to sponsor the team?!?

Make it stop. This is not realistic. Not now, not in the next 25 years. NFL teams need more sponsors than Thunder have. We're already stretching our sponsors thin. What corporations are going to sponsor the team?!?

I sincerely agree. The other day, for instance, I was listening to WWLS and some guy called in to say that it'd only work if it were located somewhere between Tulsa and OKC. I laughed at the whole idea as it reminded me of the "steel toilet bowl" stadium design that some wacko came up with a few years back for a major stadium in Stroud. I'm sorry, but the whole idea of it is ludicrous.

Make it stop. This is not realistic. Not now, not in the next 25 years. NFL teams need more sponsors than Thunder have. We're already stretching our sponsors thin. What corporations are going to sponsor the team?!?

Absolutely agree with you KT.

I'm not sure an NFL stadium is a "terrible idea." I was thinking more along the lines of how much the potential income the city could come with it. Just a single NFL season has the potential to make the city make uppers of 100 million per season for the surrounding areas (probably more). Plus the other things you could draw. (bowl game, concerts, potential site of some game for the FIFA world cup should it come back to the US, etc.)

But you're looking at about a $500M to $1B initial investment before you even begin to start thinking about those kinds of returns. And not every team is going to give you that kind of coin.
Not to mention naming rights. Yeah, Jerry Jones was planning to sell naming rights for Cowboy Stadium for a pretty penny, then the economy tanked. He still hasn't sold them. We had a tough time finding a replacement sponsor for what was the Ford Center until Chesapeake came along.




The one thing that's been true of basically every major league city (and we saw it with Bennett and co), it's that you're going to need a private person('s) to step up and take it upon themselves to start the process. Private funding can do wonders should people feel the need and want to step up. Devon has been awesome so far. If others do what their doing the possibilities could be endless for this city.

The problem is there's just a finite number of private folks with anywhere remotely near the kind of coin it would take to get an NFL franchise and facility up and operational in OK. There isn't an infinite pool of corporate money from which to draw. And, yes, it was done with the NBA under a perfect storm of circumstance, but the kind of $$ needed for an NFL venture is drastically higher.


As far as support goes I honestly believe we WOULD support it. What sports team here in Oklahoma doesn't have am incredible fan base? You can't tell me it wouldn't be supported.

Yes, I can. The Redhawks minor league baseball team's attendance has dropped so much that the current owners covered up most of the upper deck outfield seating at the Bricktown Ballpark. The Barons attendance, as I understand it, continues to drop steadily.



Also it's not like we're talking 43 home games a year like the NBA. It would be about 8 regular season 2 pre-season and however many post season games. Another thing people also say is that there wouldn't be enough people in OKC to support it. Well I don't think just people from OKC are going to be the only ones coming. Two thirds of the Oklahoma population (over 2 million) live within 100 miles. There would never be a conflict of interest (games on the same night) because college football is on saturdays and NFL is on Sundays/Mondays. Just as long as the Thunder and the NFL team don't schedule games on the one Monday night game the team would get. To me if your going to build any kind of stadium even for soccer it couldn't be a small one. Why waste all that money on small when you could potentially go big to an NFL team.


The problem isn't the desire to support a team, its the financial ability to support it, and that means discretionary income. As you note, an NFL franchise would look to sell season tickets to eight home games plus one or two worthless pre-season games (a mandatory tie-in for most if not all franchises), plus premium parking licenses, which is going to be a much taller order as an expense than a pair of season tickets to, say, OU football. OU football has a tremendous legacy behind it, and that's what drives folks to drive from all over the state. Do you think your going to get the same thousands of people to drive to OKC from, say, Tulsa, Gage, Ardmore, Purcell, etc. for multiple NFL games?

Again - its not about conflicting schedules, or how much we all love football. Its all about discretionary income. Look at the statistics that suggest a metropolitan area needs a population base of about 1 million people per pro sports franchise - and with a rough gross metro pop of about 1.2M, we've got our one pro franchise, and its working out famously. What's the source for that additional income?
[/quote]



To sum it all up I really believe it is possible, just not in the near future. Not until some group steps up. Just throwing out ideas though! I think a perfect location would be in the site where the big rock climbing places is on the corner of shields and I-40 (Where the mills/barns are) I feel like that would be an amazing place for a stadium.

file:///Users/sthompson/Desktop/Screen%20Shot%202013-02-14%20at%203.25.44%20PM.png

Well, at least on that we can agree :). I'm really not trying to be a wet blanket on the whole idea, but when I see other cities (like Cleveland, as I've mentioned earlier in this thread) which have sold their soul for an NFL franchise and end up finding themselves in a serious financial mess as a result, I just *hate* any idea that might imperil Oklahoma City's situation with a similar unwise venture. We can't let our financial good sense overrule our hearts on how "cool" it would be to have an NFL franchise.

We had some pretty darned smart businessmen realize that certain pro sports franchises were within our grasp. The NHL was the first choice, based on our support of the Blazers, and we were played by the NHL for them to leverage a better offer from a preferred city. I think both private and public sector elements learned from that experience. It didn't discourage them at all from pursuing a next-best-fit pro franchise once we proved we could support the Hornets, even if only on a short-term basis. I strongly suspect those same folks know full well that an NFL franchise is an enterprise of an entirely different magnitude, in terms of both public and private support. We've got a great thing going. We have good basic business rules of thumb others have learned through hard experience that teach us what's needed to go to the NFL level, and we're just not there yet. Let's not mess it up.

We had some pretty darned smart businessmen realize that certain pro sports franchises were within our grasp. The NHL was the first choice, based on our support of the Blazers, and we were played by the NHL for them to leverage a better offer from a preferred city.

The NHL was the first attempt because it is a much more fluid league as far as relocations go, the NBA had no teams seeking relocation at the time and we would were a harder sell to them before the Hornets were here.


The Barons attendance, as I understand it, continues to drop steadily.

Their average is up over last year

The NHL was the first attempt because it is a much more fluid league as far as relocations go, the NBA had no teams seeking relocation at the time and we would were a harder sell to them before the Hornets were here.



Their average is up over last year

the NHL effort wasn't about relocation it was about Expansion

The NHL was the first attempt because it is a much more fluid league as far as relocations go, the NBA had no teams seeking relocation at the time and we would were a harder sell to them before the Hornets were here.



Their average is up over last year

Fair enough...stand corrected! Just don't follow them, and last I heard they were near the bottom of the league in attendance.

Fair enough...stand corrected! Just don't follow them, and last I heard they were near the bottom of the league in attendance.

yes, we are at the bottom of the league with an average of 3500, but we are up on the average almost 300 per game, and the league average is only 5,500 this year.

we also are not inflating our numbers like a lot of the other teams do... Hershey PA for example has sold out every game now for 3 years... and while they do get close to that 9,800 league leading attendance on weekend games... if you watch the video from a weekday game, they are sitting around that 3 to 4 thousand mark, but it still gets listed as a sellout because they have corporate sponsors who come in and buy all the tickets. we refuse to do that and want to show real attendance numbers. While it is believed that we are still at the bottom in attendance even by the real numbers, we are much closer to the average than is shown now... and like i tell everyone... someone has to be at the bottom in attendance in every league.

but i agree with your statement on the Redhawks attendance being way down. and i do not think that OKC or Tulsa could support a NFL franchise. especially if it wasn't successful.

Make it stop. This is not realistic. Not now, not in the next 25 years. NFL teams need more sponsors than Thunder have. We're already stretching our sponsors thin. What corporations are going to sponsor the team?!?

I've said this in this thread before: I think you are underselling the growth potential of OKC's economic infrastructure.

No one...I repeat, no one in this thread is saying that OKC is in a position right now to handle an NFL team.

But anyone in this thread who is laughing at the idea of OKC ever having NFL team is not looking at this proposition objectively.

Simply put OKC needs only 3 things to support an NFL team on top of an NBA team (make no mistake though...if the NFL comes to town, the NBA would instantly become the red-headed-step-child):

1. ~3 more Fortune 500 companies (on top of CHK, DVN, and likely candidate CLR)
2. ~4 more companies like American Fidelity and MidFirst
3. A metro population of ~2M

I hate to burst the pessimistic bubble in this thread, but all of that is *possible* in the next 20-25 years, and to argue otherwise shows a lack of understanding of how much can change in a quarter century.

I personally think we're looking closer to 30 years for that to happen, but it also seems that OKC is 1 major relocation away from turning heads and growing faster than it is even now.

The odds may not be 75%, but they're not 0% either.

I personally think we're looking closer to 30 years for that to happen, but it also seems that OKC is 1 major relocation away from turning heads and growing faster than it is even now.

The odds may not be 75%, but they're not 0% either.

In the course of this discussion (and I think one like it on another thread), some suggested that an NFL stadium be part of what's apparently supposed to be an "inevitable" MAPS n+1.. That's not a 30-year plan.

I'm 35. I'll probably be 60+ before OKC has an NFL team. Even Sid's Five Year Plan got laughed at in Big Daddy. I could die before I think I'm going to make it to 60+ so, in my lifetime, no I don't think it will happen. Can it happen? Sure, but I realistically give it only a 39% probability. I'd like to see this question end up on the Sunday Sports Blitz, just so I can see John & Dean's percentages on it.

In the course of this discussion (and I think one like it on another thread), some suggested that an NFL stadium be part of what's apparently supposed to be an "inevitable" MAPS n+1.. That's not a 30-year plan.

What are the assumptions on this "'inevitable' MAPS n+1 plan?

Say in the next 10 years we get a major corporate relocation (or maybe sooner? (http://www.okctalk.com/other-urban-development/28630-mystery-tower-speculation-news-ideas-post-here-55.html#post618829)), CLR becomes Fortune 500, and Boeing adds another 2,000 jobs to OKC. Meanwhile the medical field continues to ramp up in OKC, unemployment stays under 6% and the growth rate stays ~2%/year. If the vote for MAPS n+1 is in year 11, is it really ridiculous to put the idea on the table?

(Note: I personally would be opposed to investing any more than 10% - 20% of the cost of a stadium w/ public money, and think if OKC is to get an NFL team, a particular individual/entity needs to make an investment in the city and go that direction).

And contrary to what some have said in this thread, this is far more reasonable a possibility than the conditions being right for all but about 15 other markets landing a team, and some of those are every bit as shaky as OKC.

You know what, I'm just kinda fatigued by this whole discussion. I had a nice, thoughtful reply typed up, and realized, why bother.

The NFL in OKC is a bad idea, not because of OKC, but because of the finances it requires. We've had success with the NBA. That does not translate to success with the NFL. Let's learn from the cities who let their hearts overrule their heads, and are cleaning up the fiscal mess that has resulted.

The MSA population of OKC in 1980 was roughly 861,000. Now, with a change of +400,000 even if we double that stat in the next 30 years...its well short of adding 2 million more to our base population...

If we use a base of 1.3 million as the current MSA population, we would hit 2 million in 22 years given a 2% per year rate of increase.

(1.02 ^ 22) * 1.3 = 2.01 (little over 2 million)

In other words, we'd get there by the year 2035.


A 3% rate of increase year after year would get us there 8 years ealier.

(1.03 ^ 14) * 1.3 = 1.97 (just under 2 million)

So, we'd reach 2 million sometime in mid 2027.

And, of course, you could speed up the timeline even more with a faster rate.


It seems likely that OKC has little chance of getting an NFL team before 2030. Perhaps we'll never get one. But you never know. Predicting that far out is basically impossible.

Why it bothers some on this board so much that we even have this thread is beyond me. It's only a few people having fun, speculating on an online forum.

it doesn't bother me at all that we have this thread... i just don't think it will happen, and not entirely sure that i would want it to happen, in my lifetime. I think we could come up with a much better use of the (at a minimum) $350 Million dollars that the city alone would have to put into a stadium...

And this is coming from a HUGE NFL fan... i already have my DVR set up to record the Combine this week. and i throw a NFL Draft Party every year

Oakland Raiders, Super Bowl Champs in 2046... cause you gotta have hope!

When Nashville brought the Oilers (now Titans) to their city, the metro area only had a population of 1,311,789, just saying.

When Nashville brought the Oilers (now Titans) to their city, the metro area only had a population of 1,311,789, just saying.

but that was an owner wanting to move the team there... they didn't have a group out of Nashville try and buy a team and bring it there. If OKC ever gets a supporter of the city who ends up owning an NFL team as majority owner... then ok. we have a chance... but the odds of that happening are not that great as those teams don't come up for sell very often, and there is usually a lot of competition when they do.

our best bet would be for NFL Expansion... and i just don't think the NFL would give us more than a glace of a look

Why it bothers some on this board so much that we even have this thread is beyond me. It's only a few people having fun, speculating on an online forum.

The presence of the thread doesn't inherently bother me.

I think there's a difference between a mindset of fun speculation/wishful thinking and one that implies a sort of insistence we should do it "because everyone said we couldn't support the NBA," or "of COURSE we could support it, we're a football state..."

I guess I'm jaded by the stories I've read from other cities who had the same wishful, hopeful notion, and its turned into a public financing nightmare for them. I don't want that to happen to OKC. That's all.

The NFL in OKC is a bad idea, not because of OKC, but because of the finances it requires. We've had success with the NBA. That does not translate to success with the NFL. Let's learn from the cities who let their hearts overrule their heads, and are cleaning up the fiscal mess that has resulted.

Dave, This isn't going to vote tomorrow...and probably not even 5 years from now (the next MAPS vote is probably going to be a "finish MAPS 3 right" vote).

So is it right for me to assume you are saying "OKC has minuscule chances at best to establish the necessary business infrastructure for the NFL in the next 20 to 30 years"?

So is it right for me to assume you are saying "OKC has minuscule chances at best to establish the necessary business infrastructure for the NFL in the next 20 to 30 years"?

How long has San Antonio been trying? and it sure isn't working out for them... they Built a Stadium to bring an NFL team there... and aside from a few preseason games and the temp relocation of the Saints after Katrina, it has been unused by Pro Football

How long has San Antonio been trying? and it sure isn't working out for them... they Built a Stadium to bring an NFL team there... and aside from a few preseason games and the temp relocation of the Saints after Katrina, it has been unused by Pro Football

What argument are you trying to make?

Just because there are those of us who see the possibility for OKC to support an NFL franchise in the mid-range future (20 to 30 years) doesn't mean that we all think it's going to happen.

So (1) in as much as San Antonio could pretty easily handle an NFL franchise, I don't think them not having one disproves OKC's ability to handle one. (2) There are factors working against SA that are probably more difficult to overcome than OKC: Having 2 teams across the interstate from San Antonio and in the same state is a bigger deal than OKC having just 1 team down the interstate in a different state entirely, as an example.

Now, I still think SA will get a team before OKC, probably years before...but the dynamics of the NFL have been pretty stable the last 10 years...I would guess that they'll be less stable over the next 20.

but that was an owner wanting to move the team there... they didn't have a group out of Nashville try and buy a team and bring it there. If OKC ever gets a supporter of the city who ends up owning an NFL team as majority owner... then ok. we have a chance... but the odds of that happening are not that great as those teams don't come up for sell very often, and there is usually a lot of competition when they do.

our best bet would be for NFL Expansion... and i just don't think the NFL would give us more than a glace of a look

Basically, yeah. To me, the question isn't "can we reach a population point by 20XX" but "Can we be the city so valuable a market that the league looks at us over every other city that will be available by 20XX."

There's a lot of speculation, and that's fine. Everything could just as easy go the other way. Natural gas prices could drop again, meaning our current energy corporations could lose their ability to support it. Boeing very well could up and move, not being nearly as attached to the city as the energy companies. Who knows what the future of health care could bring with all the uncertainty? Spending cuts could put Tinker on the chopping block again. And even worse, when the Thunder starts not being amazing, fan support could dry up, which would set us back as a pro-sports town in the court of public opinion, which matters more than the rest of it. There's no guarantee that we keep growing at the rate we are (and I always found population numbers to be an arbitrary measure), or that we'll even keep growing for 20 straight years.

But more importantly than all of that, getting a pro football team just relies on the city being the absolutely most valuable looking option when a team is looking to move. The NFL isn't a variable league, teams don't move often and the league expands even less frequently. And even then, they're at least flirting with the idea of expanding outside the US as well.

What argument are you trying to make?

the argument i am trying to make is that there have been and are cities that have been trying to do what is necessary to get an NFL team a lot longer than OKC. And most have come up short and are still trying.

there is no definitive standards to be an NFL city. You just have to prove yourself as the best candidate at the time of Expansion... go back and look at all the money that was wasted by cities before the 1994 NFL expansion... my argument is that in the next 20, 30, or 40 years... there are many things i would like to see OKC use that money on long before an NFL Stadium in the slim chances that we could maybe someday get an NFL team...

I brought up San Antonio, because they have a great example of public funds being used to build a stadium and get nothing in return for it. If the same situation were to happen to OKC it could set us back 20 years just as easily as it gets us an NFL team.

This is why i don't want to even think about OKC working towards getting an NFL team, because that shouldn't be our goal for growth and prosperity... the goal should be to Grow and be Prosperous... Lets do things like build one of the nations best transportation systems, lets make OKC completely walkable, lets be able to afford the number of police and firemen that the city needs, lets be at the forefront of modern design and set an example for how communities should grow... lets spend that money to become a City that other Cities want to be like. And we don't need an NFL team to do that.

You're not listening. Most of the back in forth in this thread has started in response to the rhetoric that "The NFL in OKC is laughable and totally unrealistic"

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying to go after the NFL at the expense of good public transit or walkability or a full police force. I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that OKC is one of 4 markets vying for the next NFL franchise. I don't think anyone is saying OKC is anywhere close at present to being able to support an NFL franchise.

...But when you have totally ridiculous statements saying that OKC is not even in the Top 20 markets for a new NFL team or that the ability to support the team is far from the horizon, there are those of us who are going to call bull****. Furthermore, most of those arguing against the naysayers in this thread are saying "Look, if some mega rich person/entity wants to know that OKC supports them in going after a franchise, let them know we'd be glad to make an investment".

Like I said...put up 10 to 20 percent of the stadium on the public's tab *IF* someone is going to pony up the rest of the money to get a team here.

It's really not that hard: If things develop right over the next 10 years, the city votes in 12 to 17 years to pass a tax that will go to an NFL stadium *if* someone steps up to the plate, but otherwise it goes toward a variety of other public projects.

I honestly think this thread will have more success if locked and then reopened for discussion in 20 years.

You're not listening. Most of the back in forth in this thread has started in response to the rhetoric that "The NFL in OKC is laughable and totally unrealistic"

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying to go after the NFL at the expense of good public transit or walkability or a full police force. I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that OKC is one of 4 markets vying for the next NFL franchise. I don't think anyone is saying OKC is anywhere close at present to being able to support an NFL franchise.

...But when you have totally ridiculous statements saying that OKC is not even in the Top 20 markets for a new NFL team or that the ability to support the team is far from the horizon, there are those of us who are going to call bull****. Furthermore, most of those arguing against the naysayers in this thread are saying "Look, if some mega rich person/entity wants to know that OKC supports them in going after a franchise, let them know we'd be glad to make an investment".

Like I said...put up 10 to 20 percent of the stadium on the public's tab *IF* someone is going to pony up the rest of the money to get a team here.

It's really not that hard: If things develop right over the next 10 years, the city votes in 12 to 17 years to pass a tax that will go to an NFL stadium *if* someone steps up to the plate, but otherwise it goes toward a variety of other public projects.

As a certified naysayer on this thread :) , I'll offer this "Certified Curmudgeonly Unpleasant Fact"tm The average public financing component for new NFL stadiums opened since 1997 is $238.1 million, or 56% of the project expense, not 10-20%.
Source: http://cbsminnesota.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/nfl-funding-summary-12-2-11.pdf. And that number is exaggerated on the low side by including an estimated 12% public component for the new SF stadium, and 0% for the new MetLife stadium.

As a certified naysayer on this thread :) , I'll offer this "Certified Curmudgeonly Unpleasant Fact"tm The average public financing component for new NFL stadiums opened since 1997 is $238.1 million, or 56% of the project expense, not 10-20%.
Source: http://cbsminnesota.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/nfl-funding-summary-12-2-11.pdf. And that number is exaggerated on the low side by including an estimated 12% public component for the new SF stadium, and 0% for the new MetLife stadium.

if an owner wanted to move a team to OKC we would come up with 300 or 400 mil to build/help build a stadium ... i don't think there is much doubt about that

if an owner wanted to move a team to OKC we would come up with 300 or 400 mil to build/help build a stadium ... i don't think there is much doubt about that

I certainly would aggressively oppose it.

You're not listening.

Actually i have been listening... and while i have given many many reasons as to why i don't think it is realistic that OKC would be an NFL Market, I have yet to hear anything that would convince me otherwise.

I keep hearing a lot of wishing, and hoping... but nothing other than we will have a larger population and maybe a few more companies....

NFL Expansion: Top Cities in Dire Need of an NFL Team | Bleacher Report (http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1051843-nfl-expansion-top-cities-in-dire-need-of-an-nfl-team)

It's just the Bleacher Report, but it's at least nice to think we have the gravitas to be on the list here. Pre-Thunder, that would not have been the case.

You're not listening.

Actually it's YOU that isn't listening... lol. But, the irony DID make me laugh.

The NFL in OKC is not gonna happen. There would be several big players against it - The Dallas Cowboys, OU & OSU football programs, and the Thunder for that matter.
Mark Cuban of the Mavericks was 1 of two NBA owners who voted against the Sonics relocating to OKC, due to not wanting to lose fan base. The other was Paul Allen who owns the Trailblazers, who didn't want to lose the Sonics rivalry among other things.

There will be no overcoming this until the metro population gets over the 2 million + mark......so in the near future, let's say 25 years, it's not going to happen.

Actually it's YOU that isn't listening... lol. But, the irony DID make me laugh.

Good, insightful, cogent reply.

Tell you what. I'll cede this argument to you if you just list the 25(+) markets that you believe are in front of OKC for an NFL team. Just a list...no description necessary.

The NFL in OKC is not gonna happen. There would be several big players against it - The Dallas Cowboys, OU & OSU football programs, and the Thunder for that matter.
Mark Cuban of the Mavericks was 1 of two NBA owners who voted against the Sonics relocating to OKC, due to not wanting to lose fan base. The other was Paul Allen who owns the Trailblazers, who didn't want to lose the Sonics rivalry among other things.

There will be no overcoming this until the metro population gets over the 2 million + mark......so in the near future, let's say 25 years, it's not going to happen.

On pace to happen in 21 years.

Let's just say the population is one obsticle, the real criteria is having enough sports dollars to go around. For all we know, the NFL could be in contraction in 20 years. Los Angeles would be next in line if we were looking at population vs. number of teams. They now have 2 hockey, 2 basketball and 2 baseball teams......am I missing any ? Maybe a WNBA team or two, USC & UCLA ? They could be sports poor right now which could be the real reason they have no pro football..?

Let's just say the population is one obsticle, the real criteria is having enough sports dollars to go around. For all we know, the NFL could be in contraction in 20 years. Los Angeles would be next in line if we were looking at population vs. number of teams. They now have 2 hockey, 2 basketball and 2 baseball teams......am I missing any ? Maybe a WNBA team or two, USC & UCLA ? They could be sports poor right now which could be the real reason they have no pro football..?

They lost their football teams largely for the same reason Seattle lost the Sonics, they were unwilling to publicly finance a new stadium or at least a major upgrade when their existing facility made it difficult for the team to make a profit years ago and other cities are

Good, insightful, cogent reply.

Tell you what. I'll cede this argument to you if you just list the 25(+) markets that you believe are in front of OKC for an NFL team. Just a list...no description necessary.

I've provided SEVERAL very good, very insightul, very cogent replies in this thread already about this topic... that we shouldn't even really be discussing in the first place. And, despite completely ignoring those replies, you now suddenly chide a different approach. lol. Honestly, it doesn't matter how many markets are in front of OKC... the number has absolutely ZERO bearing on OKC's viablility as an NFL market. So no matter how many markets you THINK you can justify OKC being in front of, it's just not gonna happen in our lifetimes.

BTW, The owner of the Atlanta Falcons just put up $800 million of his own money to build a new $1 billion dollar stadium in downtown Atlanta... to replace the 20 year old current facility. If that isn't an indicator of the direction the NFL infrastructure costs are going, then I don't know what is.

WichitaSooner, you have a lot of confidence about what may take place 20 or 30 years from now. My crystal ball isn't nearly that powerful (I have enough trouble trying to predict two or three week out).
:)

My own feelling is that an NFL team in OKC is inevitable. I just don't know when. Obviously not anytime soon. But decades down the line... well, we'll see.

I agree that NFL is the next major league to enter OKC, just the timing needs to be answered. Bleacher Report nor Guiddel said when the expansion would take place nor how many teams. But BR does seem to agree that OKC is a football hotbed and sports haven and would make a nice NFL market.

Here is my list of things that could make OKC even MORE attractive: 1) ownership - if Clay can put together the same ownership group as that with the Thunder, that negates any competition for corporate dollar and make OKC a very strong contender 2) stadium - obviously OKC needs a stadium and I'd expect a $350M stadium to be in MAPS IV 2a-b) with an agreement with OU and/or OSU for games to be held if OKC gets a team prior to the new stadium 3) potential OKC tv market expansion to bump above 1M households (up from the current 860K). Put 1, 2, and 3 together and OKC becomes a strong, very solid contender in my opinion.

1. We need common ownership with the NBA in order for this to work, which would negate competition between the two clubs for Oklahoma's corporate sponsorship dollar. I'd argue that the NBA Thunder has and will continue to go global and likely will solicit national/international branding as the team continues its success. The NFL team could spin off from that and 'share' those dollars, which is appropriate under common ownership.

2. Building a stadium in OKC is LONG OVERDUE but would likely be the most expensive single item ever built by the city. Clearly this would need to be a MAPS component and may even need to be a single 4-year deal. But with that $440M generated, OKC could get a world class Football/Soccer stadium that could host NFL, MLS, potential NCAA Bowl game, Big 12 Football/Soccer championship rotation, OU-OSU football/soccer game (neurtal site), OU-UT football game (neutral site rotation with Dallas) and major regional concerts/events. I honestly would have voted for this stadium instead of the Myriad Garden's fronting Convention Center and given the impact such a stadium would give to the momentum of OKC - I could see this passing if the franchise ownership issue is resolved.

3. One major thing holding back OKC is the tv market, even with the Thunder OKC is always touted as one of the nation's smallest (if not mistakenly mentioned as THE smallest). However, Oklahoma has way too many tv markets for no reason. If OKC would bump up to 1M households which surely would be accomplished if Oklahoma had just 3 or maybe 4 TV markets, OKC would bump up to around where Sacramento is if I recall correct. I would redraw the tv markets as follows OKC, Tulsa, Wichita Falls/Lawton/Altus, Ft. Smith AR/OK; with OKC getting all of NW, W Central, N Central, Central, S Central, and possibly most of E Central and SE Oklahoma; Tulsa getting the NE, and the others carving the few counties bordering adjacent state metro cities. I believe right now OKC has just Central and NW Oklahoma, with unnecessary tv markets defined for Ponca City, Enid, Ardmore, and SE Oklahoma. Those areas could still have local tv news if they wanted, but national broadcast would feed from OKC through OKC based stations or translators.

other ideas that could strengthen OKC as an NFL market alongside the NBA Thunder: Expanded NFL season which would generate more income and likely would be necessary with any expansion, Successful team/draft to build team fanbase (see NBA Thunder), schedule games witho ut conflict with NBA Thunder or OU/OSU Football/Basketball home games as best as possible, regional marketing of the team (all of Oklahoma, W Texas, S Kansas, all of AR as target market. we may not get all of that as secondary market but the team should make packages available).

The benefits of a $440M investment: more INSTANT visibility/recognition for OKC nationally since NFL is the #1 league in America by far; OKC gets a second major professional team further solidifying it's major city status; more quality of life options for residents and visitors; more potential tax revenue for city and state governments; more potential tourist visitors/airline pax; continued expansion of retail options; potential opportunity to further unite the state (similar to what OKC Thunder is doing vs. OU/OSU). I say that is worth it, provided at least 1 and 2 get answered positively.

go vote for OKC on Bleacher Report! :)

My own feelling is that an NFL team in OKC is inevitable...

Inevitable??? wow, that's a pretty powerful statement... and one i would like to hear more about why you believe. please explain to me your reasoning for believing this? and i'm not trying to be facetious, i really want to know. I'm a huge NFL fan, and would love to be able to go to games locally... but i just don't see it happening in my lifetime, unless i move to an NFL city. so i would like to know how we are both at two oposite ends of the spectrum. Please tell me, because i would love to be swayed to the other side, i just haven't read anything in this thread yet that has been able to do that.

I've provided SEVERAL very good, very insightul, very cogent replies in this thread already about this topic... that we shouldn't even really be discussing in the first place. And, despite completely ignoring those replies, you now suddenly chide a different approach. lol. Honestly, it doesn't matter how many markets are in front of OKC... the number has absolutely ZERO bearing on OKC's viablility as an NFL market. So no matter how many markets you THINK you can justify OKC being in front of, it's just not gonna happen in our lifetimes.

BTW, The owner of the Atlanta Falcons just put up $800 million of his own money to build a new $1 billion dollar stadium in downtown Atlanta... to replace the 20 year old current facility. If that isn't an indicator of the direction the NFL infrastructure costs are going, then I don't know what is.

Just below is every on topic post you've made in this thread. Bolded are the parts where you say anything of substance


To be a viable NFL market it really has nothing to do with fans... it's really about corporate support.

To give the proper perspective, OKC would essentially need 4-5 more TITLE sponsors. For example, the Thunder has Chesapeake, Devon, and I believe Midfirst. We would need probably 5 MORE similar size companies just to cover the corporate pull that an NFL team requires - ON TOP of the 3 we already have. And, that's not even touching a new stadium, infrastructure, etc...

As much as I love OKC and what we are doing, even the mere TALK of the NFL is nothing short of laughable... unfortunately.

-------------

Within the next 15-20 years? Yes, it's laughable... MAYBE in 30 years it'll be a different story, but there's no way we get that many large companies to grow or move here anytime in the near future.

----------------

Only if said billionaire wants to go broke very quickly. Say he/she was allowed to buy even the lowest value team in the league... Well, now that billionaire has paid $770 million and only has $330 million left. What about a facility? An NFL viable stadium would cost a MINIMUM of $500 million... and that might be pushing it... And, at this point we haven't even paid a secretary, much less a quarterback.

Not even close... This shouldn't even be a conversation.

------------------

lol... yeah, that's why the Jaguars are going to probably be playing in London soon...

The fact is, to even keep the Thunder viable in OKC it's requiring heavy doses of shrewd planning and spending... and on top of that, it's also taking some of OKC's richest individuals making a sacrifice because having the team here is more important to them than it just making them richer.

As an example, Jacksonville has 88 luxury boxes at Everbank... And, it's part of the reason they aren't viable any longer. They need probably double that amount, AND companies willing to throw up the millions of dollars each year just so they can throw some of their clients in there to watch a crappy football team.

Chesapeake, Devon, and MidFirst are already papering the 'Peake to keep this team viable... so they would be no help with another sports franchise. So, where else in OKC are you going to find about 100 companies willing to throw about an average of $500,000 per year, that already aren't using their discretionary funds for the Thunder or OU football?

Again, shouldn't even be a conversation...

----------------

The OWNERSHIP part is easy... we certainly have people in OKC that can afford to BUY a team... unfortunately OKC is not a viable market to SUSTAIN a team. That's the whole point here. It's not about being able to buy a team.

------------------

Actually the point is they really can't.

-----------------

I guess you just aren't paying attention. And, you obviously know NOTHING about the economics of the NFL. Filling the cheap seats is irrelevant. You have to have enough corporate support to pay for 100+ luxury suites EVERY year. We are not even close.

Again, this shouldn't even be a conversation.

-------------------

Okay, I didn't think this coversation was that reasonable to begin with... but the suggestion of Tulsa having the NFL team is absolute lunacy. lol.

--------------------

I don't think OKC is anywhere near the top 25 for an NFL franchise.... Again, this thread isn't a topic that should even be discussed.

---------------------

Read all my posts in this thread. They explain very clearly why OKC isn't even close to being a financially viable market for the NFL. You have chosen to not read them or just plain ignore them, but it doesn't make it any less true...

Before me a poster said that LA would get TWO teams before OKC would get one... That is a true statement. And, considering LA doesn't even have a team, it should tell you how far OKC is from even talking about it.

---------------------

I think most people thought that we had enough corporate support for something of the scale of an NBA team... at least here locally. But, to try to compare that to an NFL franchise, again, illustrates that you are another person in this thread that really has NO IDEA about the financial realities of the NFL vs. the NBA.

And here is part of a previous post with my most succinct description as to what (I think) OKC needs.


Simply put OKC needs only 3 things to support an NFL team on top of an NBA team (make no mistake though...if the NFL comes to town, the NBA would instantly become the red-headed-step-child):

1. ~3 more Fortune 500 companies (on top of CHK, DVN, and likely candidate CLR)
2. ~4 more companies like American Fidelity and MidFirst
3. A metro population of ~2M


What's great here is we both agree on what we need for the NFL. The only difference between you and me is that you refuse to acknowledge that OKC actually *IS* in a position for those things to come to fruition. In fact, you insist that it is LAUGHABLE that OKC actually double its Fortune 500 companies over the span of a quarter of a century. You refuse to acknowledge the fact that OKC is currently growing at a rate that would have a 2M+ metro by 2035. You refuse to acknowledge that OKC already has several companies that are not currently heavily invested in the Thunder (e.g. Hobby Lobby, Paycom, Chaparral, Boeing), and that it is reasonable to think several other companies may, over the next 25 years, grow within OKC or relocate from another city that could also invest in a future franchise. My God if one of the companies thrown around the Mystery Tower thread happens on some level (Shell, Conoco/Phillips, Sinopec, Cemex) That changes the game quite a bit.

Another possibility is that one or two of OKC's premier businesses grow better than anticipated and become Fortune 100 companies that can easily headline more than one franchise.

All I know is you are speaking in ridiculous [On EDIT: I mean this as a modifier of severity, not qualitatively] absolutes about something that is quite grey and fluid. I mean, for pete's sake, Harold Hamm is the 90th richest person on the planet...He could build the stadium, buy the Dallas Cowboys, and operate the whole thing for 10 years with zero fans in the stadium and still be a multi-billionaire.

HotRod,

If OKC is getting a team in expansion, then OKC better hope like hell that expansion is held off until 2025 at the very earliest. 2035 is probably the earliest OKC would actually be able to accommodate an NFL team.

If the NFL expands in the next 10 years, OKC has no chance at landing a team (even in a 4 team expansion) nor should we want one. Otherwise, we will be stuck buying one in 20+ years off of a city that's struggling (maybe Cleveland or Buffalo)

doubtful the nfl ever expands again in the united states .. but okc could still get a team ... heck if Harold Hamm wanted to buy a team right now he could ... and then after buying the team if he decided to move it to okc he could .. and okc would sell out each and every game .. and the city/state/county would help build a stadium

my point exactly Boulder. Ownership is really the #1 key for OKC, then the Stadium which WOULD get resolved with the proper owner (ie, same as Thunder).

An image I saw last year when the Thunder made it to the playoffs. Not that I think it will happen but there were many upset Seattle fans when this image floated around: 3458

lol, that is too funny. And likely true actually.

doubtful the nfl ever expands again in the united states .. but okc could still get a team ... heck if Harold Hamm wanted to buy a team right now he could ... and then after buying the team if he decided to move it to okc he could .. and okc would sell out each and every game .. and the city/state/county would help build a stadium

So, the 75th richest man in America buys an NFL team and taxpayers pay for the stadium? Would they sell out the games without Hamm paying for the seats like Chesapeake does for the Thunder? We'll see how the Thunder stats are next year when McClendon's not at Chesapeake to subsidize his team. They buy tons of tickets and give them away and attendance statistics are skewed because of that.

You need a ton of corporate sponsors for an NFL team. The Thunder barely have enough as it is. Again, there are so many reasons this doesn't make sense (e.g., population, college teams, lack of stadium, lack of sponsors, lack of income in OKC area to support second pro team, etc.). Even if some of these reasons could be overcome I don't think the money (sponsors or from population) is there in the end.

So, the 75th richest man in America buys an NFL team and taxpayers pay for the stadium? Would they sell out the games without Hamm paying for the seats like Chesapeake does for the Thunder? We'll see how the Thunder stats are next year when McClendon's not at Chesapeake to subsidize his team. They buy tons of tickets and give them away and attendance statistics are skewed because of that.

the thunder would sell each and every seat .. and will next year ... 10 dollar seats go online for over 50 for just about every game ..

the thunder would sell each and every seat .. and will next year ... 10 dollar seats go online for over 50 for just about every game ..

You can't judge a franchise that is in the position the Thunder are in now. They're one of the two or three best teams in the league. Will the support be there if/when they're not and there's a competing NFL team?

I don't think a lot of people will pay for premium seats to both (and OU/OSU)... At some point, the dollars won't be there in my opinion.