Also updated their route map already.

It appears Allegiant will have their own gate in Tulsa...so I expect them to do the same thing in OKC. Gate leases at OKC are around $5000 a month for a signatory carrier, or $250 rent for 0-4 hours of use.

Another airline or company will probably do the ground handling.

It appears Allegiant will have their own gate in Tulsa...so I expect them to do the same thing in OKC. Gate leases at OKC are around $5000 a month for a signatory carrier, or $250 rent for 0-4 hours of use.

Another airline or company will probably do the ground handling.

I can't see Allegiant paying that much to least a gate, but it might work out to be cheaper that paying by the hour. No doubt G4 will be outsourcing ground...the question is who. If we get up to the level of multiple cities thats when they would start looking at bringing a couple of their own folks in. Is AA mainline here or Eagle below wing?

AA and DL is G2 Secure Staff below the wing, mainline above the wing.

United and Southwest are mainline above and below.

Frontier is FSS above and below.

United handled the above and below wing functions for Frontier using Frontier's gate for Apr-Aug 2012 and ended on United's terms. I am not sure if United will bid on the work for Allegiant.

Venture, Why is MCI and SAT so difficult? School me because I am lost as to why they are troubled routes for a carrier out of OKC.

Also, a few weeks ago I ran into Senator Elizabeth Warren at CVS at 23rd and May, her family still lives in the neighborhood, and we talked for a few minutes. She was picking up a few things for a flight back to Boston. She comes back to OKC fairly often and she said that it's really tricky to find flights that accommodate her days and hours. I don't know if she meant from DC or Boston, but is Oklahoma City really that hard to get to? Is that a perception or reality?

Venture, Why is MCI and SAT so difficult? School me because I am lost as to why they are troubled routes for a carrier out of OKC.

Also, a few weeks ago I ran into Senator Elizabeth Warren at CVS at 23rd and May, her family still lives in the neighborhood, and we talked for a few minutes. She was picking up a few things for a flight back to Boston. She comes back to OKC fairly often and she said that it's really tricky to find flights that accommodate her days and hours. I don't know if she meant from DC or Boston, but is Oklahoma City really that hard to get to? Is that a perception or reality?
OKC is not hard to get to unless you want numerous nonstop flights throughout the day. There is no problem finding connecting flights between OKC and Boston or DC at just about any time of the day.

Venture, Why is MCI and SAT so difficult? School me because I am lost as to why they are troubled routes for a carrier out of OKC.

Well we can dive into OKC-MCI a bit because of the nonstop service.

Q1 O&D is at 107 people or 53 people per day each way. Southwest had 97% of those passengers so 51. Divide it by 2 nonstops a day we are looking at 25 O&D passengers per flight each way.

Average WN air fare was $143.86 one way. So we'll keep that in mind. Let's jump into the flight specifics a bit more on WN's problems...

Just looking at January's numbers from OKC to MCI they completed 58 flights. This offered 8032 seats but they only filled 2737 seats. That is a whopping 34% load factor (47 pax per flight) which by any standards is horrible. Southwest had a system average CASM (cost per available seat mile) of 13.03 cents during the first quarter this year. That means for one flight it was costing them on average $5,628 to operate one flight.

So we already know O&D pax were generating $3596.50 for each flight. When we look at connecting passengers, the remaining 22 pax would need to be contributing at least $92 per passenger for it to just break even. That just isn't very likely considering those passengers are connecting so the ticket revenue is being split with other segments.

So that is why it wouldn't work for WN and with a larger aircraft. So what would work?

I've advocated an eventual resurgence of locals/regionals flying ATRs/Dash 8s. The Dash 8 Q400 has an average CASM around 9.8 cents. It has a typical layout of 74 seats. So for a trip from OKC to MCI you are looking at total costs around $2270. So if you are looking at 25 pax per flight based on existing O&D, you just need an *AVERAGE* fare of $91 to break even. Sure there are more complex costs to go into it, but this is to show that OKC-MCI can work...it just has to be with the correct equipment.

For SAT on a Q400 you are looking at around $2952 to operate it. Right now 66 passengers fly between OKC and SAT each way, which makes it doable if you can at least capture half of that with nonstop service.


Also, a few weeks ago I ran into Senator Elizabeth Warren at CVS at 23rd and May, her family still lives in the neighborhood, and we talked for a few minutes. She was picking up a few things for a flight back to Boston. She comes back to OKC fairly often and she said that it's really tricky to find flights that accommodate her days and hours. I don't know if she meant from DC or Boston, but is Oklahoma City really that hard to get to? Is that a perception or reality?

I think it comes down to travel time. She has been in cities where there is normally nonstop service to most in demand markets and there isn't any concern of layovers. I've had plenty of interactions with passengers that simply have no desire to spend more than 4 hours traveling unless they are going to the opposite coast. Most of us don't really care about connections that much, but tell someone they are sitting in Chicago or Atlanta for an hour an a half or longer and they will want a better option.

Just curious, and sorry if this has been stated elsewhere and I missed it, in Steve's chat on friday it was mentioned again about the loss of, I think, 500+ jobs(or something like that) company to Nashville due lack of direct air service. . . Another person asked if there was anything that was being done to get more flights here. . . Nothing much after that was said though other than Steve saying they are limited to what they can do, due to the FAA. I didn't quite understand what that meant. Does the FAA have regulations in preventing the airport from luring more service in?

I also wonder if expanding our airport would help any? Maybe it is just the local economy that dictates. I know it is highly unlikely our airport will ever be like DFW with 10 lane highway running though it, billion dollar skylink(is that how much it costs?) and 20 story hotels. But we could do something pretty big I suppose.

(sorry for lack of correct aviation and airport terminology, I'm not too knowledgeable in this :p)

Just curious, and sorry if this has been stated elsewhere and I missed it, in Steve's chat on friday it was mentioned again about the loss of, I think, 500+ jobs(or something like that) company to Nashville due lack of direct air service. . . Another person asked if there was anything that was being done to get more flights here. . . Nothing much after that was said though other than Steve saying they are limited to what they can do, due to the FAA. I didn't quite understand what that meant. Does the FAA have regulations in preventing the airport from luring more service in?

A lot of the posts I've put up touched on how difficult it can be to get additional air service without getting the right type of equipment flying it. So go back and read the last page or two and that should help understand what needs to happen. Steve comment on being limited due to the FAA just sounds like something he's passing on from what he's heard...that's completely incorrect. :) There is nothing keeping OKC from adding more service except for the market itself, airport management lobbying for it, and the economics of the operator being found for a route.


I also wonder if expanding our airport would help any? Maybe it is just the local economy that dictates. I know it is highly unlikely our airport will ever be like DFW with 10 lane highway running though it, billion dollar skylink(is that how much it costs?) and 20 story hotels. But we could do something pretty big I suppose.

(sorry for lack of correct aviation and airport terminology, I'm not too knowledgeable in this :p)

There is ZERO reason to expand the airport. Now I say that meaning overall. Terminal wise I think we need to finish up and get the east wing built with a few more gates with 1 of them being an FIS gate. That will help with hopefully landing some international charters to Mexico and the island vacation spots. Outside of that, OKC has an extreme amount of excess runway capacity right now. We have barely enough traffic to justify more than 1 operational runway let alone 3 (yes I know technically there are 4, but that little one doesn't count). We have a very nice airport. It is a good sized airport with plenty of extra capacity to play with. All we need are a few more amenities in the terminal and we'll be good.

I hit on this a bit in a previous post...OKC also doesn't have a lot of people in its catchment area that you see when you get east of the Mississippi. There you start talking about airports with catchment areas of 5-10 million or more people with in 1-2 hour drives. Here you don't have that because the population density isn't great. I think we could definitely grow more, but its going to take finding a regional like Silver or someone similar to operate a regional network like what ExpressJet tried and what many airlines back before 2000 did up North and East.

To further illustrate what I mean route network wise...here are some old route maps of airlines that did kinda of what I'm talking about - keep in mind there aren't the exact routes I think would work.

http://www.departedflights.com/FL120180r.jpg

http://www.departedflights.com/ZV090186.jpg

http://www.departedflights.com/ZW060184.jpg

Side note...Southwest/AirTran load a new schedule this weekend through April 4th. AirTran is still 2x daily to ATL. However, they are no longer showing AirTran operated flights to MDW so it should be back to full WN metal for the Spring. We'll know more Monday morning.

Just curious, and sorry if this has been stated elsewhere and I missed it, in Steve's chat on friday it was mentioned again about the loss of, I think, 500+ jobs(or something like that) company to Nashville due lack of direct air service. . . Another person asked if there was anything that was being done to get more flights here. . . Nothing much after that was said though other than Steve saying they are limited to what they can do, due to the FAA. I didn't quite understand what that meant. Does the FAA have regulations in preventing the airport from luring more service in?

I also wonder if expanding our airport would help any? Maybe it is just the local economy that dictates. I know it is highly unlikely our airport will ever be like DFW with 10 lane highway running though it, billion dollar skylink(is that how much it costs?) and 20 story hotels. But we could do something pretty big I suppose.

(sorry for lack of correct aviation and airport terminology, I'm not too knowledgeable in this :p)

Plupan, he said more than 100 jobs so I doubt is was close to 500. I'm really not sure about what he meant by the FAA comment. Expanding the airport will not change the situation at all. We are nowhere close to utilizing all of the capacity we have now at Will Rogers. Plans are in place for future expansion if it is needed. The airlines are contracting hubs instead of expanding. We can hope for better point to point service but a hub won't be happening.

I agree with Venture about the desirability for a FIS gate. (Federal Inspection)

Well we can dive into OKC-MCI a bit because of the nonstop service.

Q1 O&D is at 107 people or 53 people per day each way. Southwest had 97% of those passengers so 51. Divide it by 2 nonstops a day we are looking at 25 O&D passengers per flight each way.

Average WN air fare was $143.86 one way. So we'll keep that in mind. Let's jump into the flight specifics a bit more on WN's problems...

Just looking at January's numbers from OKC to MCI they completed 58 flights. This offered 8032 seats but they only filled 2737 seats. That is a whopping 34% load factor (47 pax per flight) which by any standards is horrible. Southwest had a system average CASM (cost per available seat mile) of 13.03 cents during the first quarter this year. That means for one flight it was costing them on average $5,628 to operate one flight.

So we already know O&D pax were generating $3596.50 for each flight. When we look at connecting passengers, the remaining 22 pax would need to be contributing at least $92 per passenger for it to just break even. That just isn't very likely considering those passengers are connecting so the ticket revenue is being split with other segments.

So that is why it wouldn't work for WN and with a larger aircraft. So what would work?

I've advocated an eventual resurgence of locals/regionals flying ATRs/Dash 8s. The Dash 8 Q400 has an average CASM around 9.8 cents. It has a typical layout of 74 seats. So for a trip from OKC to MCI you are looking at total costs around $2270. So if you are looking at 25 pax per flight based on existing O&D, you just need an *AVERAGE* fare of $91 to break even. Sure there are more complex costs to go into it, but this is to show that OKC-MCI can work...it just has to be with the correct equipment.

For SAT on a Q400 you are looking at around $2952 to operate it. Right now 66 passengers fly between OKC and SAT each way, which makes it doable if you can at least capture half of that with nonstop service.



I think it comes down to travel time. She has been in cities where there is normally nonstop service to most in demand markets and there isn't any concern of layovers. I've had plenty of interactions with passengers that simply have no desire to spend more than 4 hours traveling unless they are going to the opposite coast. Most of us don't really care about connections that much, but tell someone they are sitting in Chicago or Atlanta for an hour an a half or longer and they will want a better option.

What a great answer. Really. You made what some have tried to explain to me very simple. Intellectually, I know it always comes down to the math, but to actually see the math and look at the numbers, it makes perfect sense now. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

A lot of the posts I've put up touched on how difficult it can be to get additional air service without getting the right type of equipment flying it. So go back and read the last page or two and that should help understand what needs to happen. Steve comment on being limited due to the FAA just sounds like something he's passing on from what he's heard...that's completely incorrect. :) There is nothing keeping OKC from adding more service except for the market itself, airport management lobbying for it, and the economics of the operator being found for a route.



There is ZERO reason to expand the airport. Now I say that meaning overall. Terminal wise I think we need to finish up and get the east wing built with a few more gates with 1 of them being an FIS gate. That will help with hopefully landing some international charters to Mexico and the island vacation spots. Outside of that, OKC has an extreme amount of excess runway capacity right now. We have barely enough traffic to justify more than 1 operational runway let alone 3 (yes I know technically there are 4, but that little one doesn't count). We have a very nice airport. It is a good sized airport with plenty of extra capacity to play with. All we need are a few more amenities in the terminal and we'll be good.

I hit on this a bit in a previous post...OKC also doesn't have a lot of people in its catchment area that you see when you get east of the Mississippi. There you start talking about airports with catchment areas of 5-10 million or more people with in 1-2 hour drives. Here you don't have that because the population density isn't great. I think we could definitely grow more, but its going to take finding a regional like Silver or someone similar to operate a regional network like what ExpressJet tried and what many airlines back before 2000 did up North and East.

To further illustrate what I mean route network wise...here are some old route maps of airlines that did kinda of what I'm talking about - keep in mind there aren't the exact routes I think would work.That makes sense. I never really though about our runways.

Southwest schedule through April 6th is in. Orlando is not returning, but that isn't much of a shock. Nothing else major that I can see...

MDW - 2 daily - 700AM, 315PM
BWI - 1 daily - 1010AM
STL - 1 daily - 530PM
DAL - 4 daily - 605AM, 1045AM, 220PM, 545PM
HOU - 4 daily - 840AM, 1135AM, 240PM, 440PM
LAS - 2 daily - 1205PM, 740PM
PHX - 2 daily - 730AM, 430PM
DEN - 3 daily - 730AM, 1035AM, 710PM

ATL (op by FL) - 2 daily - 1034AM, 534AM

Southwest schedule through April 6th is in. Orlando is not returning, but that isn't much of a shock. Nothing else major that I can see...

MDW - 2 daily - 700AM, 315PM
BWI - 1 daily - 1010AM
STL - 1 daily - 530PM
DAL - 4 daily - 605AM, 1045AM, 220PM, 545PM
HOU - 4 daily - 840AM, 1135AM, 240PM, 440PM
LAS - 2 daily - 1205PM, 740PM
PHX - 2 daily - 730AM, 430PM
DEN - 3 daily - 730AM, 1035AM, 710PM

ATL (op by FL) - 2 daily - 1034AM, 534AM

Bummed to see Orlando will not be returning. It is such a big market though, I think we will see them try again in years to come especially as Oklahoma City grows in population. Although they made their decision before g4's announcement, do you think that as long as they are serving the market, albeit in Sanford, WN will not try the route again? Are there many mid sized stations (like OKC ) where G4 and WN go head to head? We flew WN last March down there and loved the non stop service to MCO. I really hope that the service is back once my kids get older!

Bummed to see Orlando will not be returning. It is such a big market though, I think we will see them try again in years to come especially as Oklahoma City grows in population. Although they made their decision before g4's announcement, do you think that as long as they are serving the market, albeit in Sanford, WN will not try the route again? Are there many mid sized stations (like OKC ) where G4 and WN go head to head? We flew WN last March down there and loved the non stop service to MCO. I really hope that the service is back once my kids get older!

We should get a clearer idea of what Southwest was dealing with once the T100 Segment data for the full winter/early spring period is out. Right now it only goes up through February, so that only gives us about 13 days of traffic data which is pretty worthless. :)

I think they'll watch G4 and see what they do, but G4 has lower costs and doesn't need as high of yields that WN does. Plus G4 does very well in selling packages which gives them more flexibility over WN. At this point I would say we need to focus on G4 knocking it out of the park to SFB, because they could very well connect the dots for us pretty quickly. PGD could be pretty big from here, so could PIE. Then if they feel like really going after WN we could see LAS and AZA (Phoenix-Mesa). They haven't done much with SFO and LAX, so those are probably out for now. SAN only has nonstop service to Bellingham, WA...but maybe G4 is someone that can get the nonstops going there. Though I would still prefer Alaska if they could make it make sense.

Have nothing new to add in this post but can I just say I have really enjoyed the extremely informative posts in the last few pages. Maybe you guys have always contributed this much in prior threads and I just missed it, but impressive indeed. Great to see how many people are truly vested in improving air service to OKC. Now hopefully we actually make a difference in some way at some point!

Venture has touched on this, but if WRWA tried to market to the OKC audience to prevent leakage to DFW, we'd have much greater air service in OKC. Too many people drive to DFW, it's a problem.

Seriously? I mean, we've contemplated it before, but after crunching the numbers and time I'd much rather spend time in an airport for a layover than 3 hours down and back to DFW.

The average Oklahoma consumer is "value" (as in the dollar) oriented. They will trip over a dollar to pick up a penny. If that means driving 3 1/2 hours at 1am to be at DFW by 430am and still have to go through security, then they will do it. The median OKC consumer will not spend extra on convenience. That's why despite numerous OKC-LAX nonstops, there is still a ton of connecting traffic through hubs to get to LAX...or SFO...or...anywhere. the extra $18 for a nonstop is not an option for some, if the connecting flight is cheaper even by just a few dollars they will take it.

And then they'll show up at departure time with a bag from Sonic...watching their airplane push back from the gate.

Sorry that turned into a rant, this summer has been tough. Never have seen so many clueless fliers before.

Just on gas alone and parking at DFW....the airfare needs to be in the multiple hundreds of dollars to be cheaper overall.

I have friends who do that - drive fromOKC to DFW to avoid the connection. The primary reason is to reduce the risk of missed connections or cancelled flights which seem to be more frequent. Also, if you factor in the time of that last leg between OKC & DFW (2x on a round-trip flight - I get that), then the time spent up on the road is comparable.

The thing I detest most about flying is the uncertainty, and I'm not alone.

What we really need is to see the airport authority conduct a true market study that actually with show how much leakage there is. I've asked them for it in the last few months and they've told me they don't see the need to complete one right now. While I don't think leakage is high like we see in cities with in an hour of a major hub, I wouldn't be shocked if it was over 20%. I would also believe that it really starts getting problematic once you get south of Pauls Valley.

I would also believe that it really starts getting problematic once you get south of Pauls Valley.

And how much of that area is taken into calculations on our catchment area?

Our main catchment area is about midway between OKC and Amarillo to the west. Midway between OKC and the Arkansas border to the east. OKC to the Kansas state line to the north. And OKC to Paul's Valley to the south. We so grab a good number of Tulsa traffic as well as Lawton, and Wichita Falls, TX. We used to grab a lot of Wichita but that has decreased.

I laid my eyes upon a map that used billing zip codes for a period.

The average Oklahoma consumer is "value" (as in the dollar) oriented. They will trip over a dollar to pick up a penny. If that means driving 3 1/2 hours at 1am to be at DFW by 430am and still have to go through security, then they will do it. The median OKC consumer will not spend extra on convenience. That's why despite numerous OKC-LAX nonstops, there is still a ton of connecting traffic through hubs to get to LAX...or SFO...or...anywhere. the extra $18 for a nonstop is not an option for some, if the connecting flight is cheaper even by just a few dollars they will take it.

And then they'll show up at departure time with a bag from Sonic...watching their airplane push back from the gate.

Sorry that turned into a rant, this summer has been tough. Never have seen so many clueless fliers before.

Just on gas alone and parking at DFW....the airfare needs to be in the multiple hundreds of dollars to be cheaper overall.

the trip to dfw is much closer to 2 1/2 hours at 1am than it is 3 1/2 ... i just went on a trip with some friends .. it was almost 200 a person extra to fly out of okc ... so we drove to DFW .. 200 x 4 800 bucks ... well worth the drive plus gas and parking ..

What we really need is to see the airport authority conduct a true market study that actually with show how much leakage there is. I've asked them for it in the last few months and they've told me they don't see the need to complete one right now. While I don't think leakage is high like we see in cities with in an hour of a major hub, I wouldn't be shocked if it was over 20%. I would also believe that it really starts getting problematic once you get south of Pauls Valley.

I tend to agree. It wouldn't surprise me to see people who must connect in DFW just drive. Business flyers certainly are not going to drive.

I really can't say I know anyone who's driven to Dallas to catch a flight that was domestic (international is another story).

the trip to dfw is much closer to 2 1/2 hours at 1am than it is 3 1/2 ... i just went on a trip with some friends .. it was almost 200 a person extra to fly out of okc ... so we drove to DFW .. 200 x 4 800 bucks ... well worth the drive plus gas and parking ..

Exactly - that's the story I've heard multiple times as well. Sometimes the fare difference is quite appreciable - a few hundred bucks per ticket adds up fast. I think it's probably a combination of multiple factors - short segments are costly for airlines to operate so a OKC-DFW tag-on becomes relatively more expensive on one ticket than a DFW-xxx ticket which is presumably a much longer leg. Plus AA doesn't want to add an 8th mainline flight to keep staffing costs down, but that keeps capacity down, which keeps fares high, which is probably what AA is going after so they're good with it. Certainly more capacity on OKC-DFW might lower fares across the board you would think - plus I don't think I've been on an OKC-DFW flight in years that wasn't at least 80% full, so there's plenty of demand. In fact a couple of times I've received free upgrades to F if economy was overbooked. And add to that if people are driving to DFW they're probably flying AA anyway (unless they're some psychotic masochist who actually flies Spirit), so then again what's the incentive for AA to add capacity to OKC if they're capturing the traffic at some point anyway. Having said all that I would never do it for myself (or even if it was my fiancee and I traveling), but I'm one of those weirdos that doesn't always just jump at the cheapest ticket - I'll definitely pay a bit more for an itinerary that's convenient and works for me (and saves me 7 hours of driving at odd hours of the night).

the trip to dfw is much closer to 2 1/2 hours at 1am than it is 3 1/2 ... i just went on a trip with some friends .. it was almost 200 a person extra to fly out of okc ... so we drove to DFW .. 200 x 4 800 bucks ... well worth the drive plus gas and parking ..

I think of it just like Keep it Local. Obviously the money doesn't stay in OKC, but the premise is the same. We will never have air service similar to cities our size and even smaller if we don't first support the flights we have now. Constantly supporting Dallas will only help theirs and ours decrease.

Our downline contribution out of OKC to hubs is important, we must support our hub flights if we want mainline on them. When we dilute our profitable downline contribution by only flying out of OKC when it is cheap, we will lose hub flights/capacity.

If you want more mainline service in OKC, or more service in general you must make it a profitable endeavour for the airlines. By driving to DFW you make a statement to the airline that you would rather have a cheap and unprofitable ticket -- and airlines are no longer fighting for unprofitable flying. They are more than happy to drop unprofitable flying and add service in markets that support them and pay a premium for their air service.

I guess I'm just shocked that people don't put more value on their own time.

And that drive back up after a vacation and flying into DFW is brutal. Who wants that?

I tend to agree. It wouldn't surprise me to see people who must connect in DFW just drive. Business flyers certainly are not going to drive.

I really can't say I know anyone who's driven to Dallas to catch a flight that was domestic (international is another story).

I know many, many people that drive to Dallas for domestic flights. I don't think it's all that uncommon. Catch hit it right on the head when he described OKC people as value oriented to a fault.

I know many, many people that drive to Dallas for domestic flights. I don't think it's all that uncommon. Catch hit it right on the head when he described OKC people as value oriented to a fault.

Hmm...maybe there is a market for low cost regional flights from here. Anyone know if Boone Pickens has loose change laying around? ;)

I guess I'm just shocked that people don't put more value on their own time.

And that drive back up after a vacation and flying into DFW is brutal. Who wants that?

i agree with this ... for our trip the money was not the only factor ... flight timing was .... leaving from dallas at 630 let us be on a beach by 1 pm in the DR leaving from OKC would have gotten us to the beach at 7pm and at a higher cost .... coming back we had a noon flight to dallas we would have had a 7am to okc ..

I know many, many people that drive to Dallas for domestic flights. I don't think it's all that uncommon. Catch hit it right on the head when he described OKC people as value oriented to a fault.

I have dealt with the flying public in OKC for many, many years and almost none of them ever want to drive to DFW for a domestic flight. I'm sure it happens but it's nowhere near as common as some might think.

I have dealt with the flying public in OKC for many, many years and almost none of them ever want to drive to DFW for a domestic flight. I'm sure it happens but it's nowhere near as common as some might think.

It's being done, but without a study showing the numbers, there's no sense in arguing this further. It's very clear that things are happening that are keeping OKC from securing the air service that similarly sized cities have. I have no doubt leakage to DFW is part of the problem.

I have dealt with the flying public in OKC for many, many years and almost none of them ever want to drive to DFW for a domestic flight. I'm sure it happens but it's nowhere near as common as some might think.

I agree with this. I have done it two or three times over many, many years. File those trips under "special conditions." I really only remember why on one of the trips and it was a last minute trip for a funeral. I didn't want to take a chance with 2 stops that involved connecting flights if I did it out of OKC. But, the "special condition" in this circumstance made it worthwhile because I absolutely couldn't risk a tight connecting flight. But that kind of thing is rare.

i agree with this ... for our trip the money was not the only factor ... flight timing was .... leaving from dallas at 630 let us be on a beach by 1 pm in the DR leaving from OKC would have gotten us to the beach at 7pm and at a higher cost .... coming back we had a noon flight to dallas we would have had a 7am to okc ..

Part of your post makes sense and part of it doesn't - if you had a noon flight out of the DR back to DFW you could have certainly caught a connecting flight to OKC. Last flight DFW-OKC leaves around 10:30 PM so darn near every inbound flt to DFW enables pax to connect to it. On the outbound I understand you got almost an extra day by flying out of DFW. Another thing that hurts is we don't have a MIA nonstop on AA (why does TUL have one but not us!).

i agree with this ... for our trip the money was not the only factor ... flight timing was .... leaving from dallas at 630 let us be on a beach by 1 pm in the DR leaving from OKC would have gotten us to the beach at 7pm and at a higher cost .... coming back we had a noon flight to dallas we would have had a 7am to okc ..

This is an instance I don't think any of us are arguing here. We get there are circumstances that will make DFW an attractive option. This is one I would consider.

However, for my wife and I to save $200 on a domestic flight? Yeah no thanks.

I guess I'm just shocked that people don't put more value on their own time.

And that drive back up after a vacation and flying into DFW is brutal. Who wants that?

My thoughts exactly. And even moreso on an international trip. Who wants to take a 10-11 hour flt to DFW then have to drive 3+ more? Yeah right! Definitely worth paying an extra $200 to avoid that hassle.

Another thing that hurts is we don't have a MIA nonstop on AA (why does TUL have one but not us!).

It is a way to funnel 757's into the Tulsa maintenance base. The non-stop is Saturday only.

I know this isn't Oklahoma air. I just saw this on Facebook and think it is really cool. . .

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1174568_10151556556651010_1644179109_n.jpgI'm guessing this is the new terminal? This thing is awesome!



''Are you excited for the beautiful new Tom Bradley International Terminal at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) to open this fall? Stay tuned for helpful and fun traveler itineraries for your next layover at the new TBIT. #GoLAXIntl"

It is a way to funnel 757's into the Tulsa maintenance base. The non-stop is Saturday only.

Except it is done with 738s and not 757s. ;)

I've spoken with a few people about them and apparently they are self sustaining not and they no longer need them for aircraft repositioning.

Someone should send this link to Karen Carney:

Sept. 9-10: @AAAEDelivers' 3rd Annual Airport Social Media Summit at D/FW International

AAAE Airport Social Media Summit (http://events.aaae.org/sites/130907/index.cfm)

Airports and Authorities in Attendance - Guess who is missing?
As of August 26, 2013



Addison Airport
Akron-Canton Airport
Aspen/Pitkin County Airport
Austin-Bergstrom International Airport
Capital Region Airport Commission
Charleston County Aviation Authority
Charlottesville-Albemarle Airport Auth.
City of Chicago
Columbus Regional Airport Authority
Dallas Love Field/City of Dallas
Daytona Beach Int'l Airport
Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport
Eugene Airport
Fort Wayne-Allen County Airport Auth.
Fresno Yosemite International Airport
Gerald R. Ford International Airport
Greater Moncton Airport (Dieppe, NB Canada)
Greater Orlando Aviation Authority
Greenville-Spartanburg Airport Commission
Huntsville International Airport
Indianapolis Airport Authority
Jacksonville Aviation Authority
Lafayette Regional Airport
Lee County Port Authority
London International Airport (London, ON Canada)
Metropolitan Airports Commission
Midland International Airport
Mineta San Jose International Airport
Philadelphia Int'l Airport
Port of Portland
Raleigh-Durham Airport Authority
Roanoke Regional Airport Commission
San Diego County Regional Airport Auth.
Savannah Airport Commission
Wichita Airport Authority
Wilmington International Airport
Yeager Airport

Shocker.

It's being done, but without a study showing the numbers, there's no sense in arguing this further. It's very clear that things are happening that are keeping OKC from securing the air service that similarly sized cities have. I have no doubt leakage to DFW is part of the problem.

Does Nashville have any leakage problems / targets?

What help Nashville is that it is a tourist destination as well as a regional business hub.

Nashville International Airport Sets May Record for Total Number of Passengers (http://www.flynashville.com/news-and-media/press-releases/Pages/May-Numbers.aspx)


NASHVILLE ─ The Metropolitan Nashville Airport Authority (MNAA) today announced during its June board meeting that Nashville International Airport (BNA) achieved the best May in BNA history in terms of total number of passengers.

More than 950,000 passengers travelled through BNA in May, a 7.1 percent increase from May 2012. The previous record for May was 901,000 in May 2007. May 2013 also marks the busiest overall month in terms of total number of passengers since Aug. 1993. Nashville International Airport has announced 14 additional nonstop flights in the past 12 months.

“As a major economic engine for our region, this is an exciting time, not only for BNA, but for Nashville,” Rob Wigington, president and CEO of the Metropolitan Nashville Airport Authority, said. “We are well on our way to hitting the 10 million passenger mark for 2013.”

Nashville International Airport is currently served by 10 airlines and offers 380 daily arriving and departing flights. Nashville International provides nonstop air service to 49 markets. Visit Home (http://www.flynashville.com) for more information.

I guess I'm just shocked that people don't put more value on their own time.

A couple of years ago one of the Sports Animal guys went to Augusta to cover The Masters. He was on the air telling about his trip. He drove to Dallas, flew South West to Birmingham, and drove to Augusta. He said he saved something like a $100. That had to be the dumbest thing I have heard for trying to save $100.

A couple of years ago one of the Sports Animal guys went to Augusta to cover The Masters. He was on the air telling about his trip. He drove to Dallas, flew South West to Birmingham, and drove to Augusta. He said he saved something like a $100. That had to be the dumbest thing I have heard for trying to save $100.

Well yeah, consider the source.

What help Nashville is that it is a tourist destination as well as a regional business hub.

Nashville International Airport Sets May Record for Total Number of Passengers (http://www.flynashville.com/news-and-media/press-releases/Pages/May-Numbers.aspx)

It also helps that Nashville was a hub for American before Southwest moved in and retained much of the nonstop service to business markets AA had established. BNA is also pretty well isolated to prevent much leakage, though I'm sure it happens in a small amount to Chattanooga and Knoxville for people to grab flights on Allegiant.

11:18
Comment From John
Last week you said that the FAA limits OKC's commercial air expansion. Can you elaborate on that? Sorry for being uneducated on this..



11:19
Steve Lackmeyer:
My understanding is the city/airport can't throw money at airlines to buy a hub.


Steve...if you have questions ask. We can clear them up pretty quickly. :)

It would cost the city a stupid amount of subsidy to entice an airline to build a hub here. Hundreds of millions of dollars per year.

It would cost the city a stupid amount of subsidy to entice an airline to build a hub here. Hundreds of millions of dollars per year.

The most we could get is something on the level of what Spirit has in Detroit. About 12-18 flights a day to 12 cities or so - only needs 2 gates. However the revenue guarantees to speed it up is going to cost a lot. Full size hub...just like Catch said.

I think Southwest would be a good fit once the city grows a little more. (if we begin to boom)

I could see Southwest do a small focus city operation in the mid term future (not short term)...SAN AUS or SAT MSY MCO.

UAL sending a 737-800 from DEN-OKC this evening. Looks like it was temporary.



United (UA) #1110 Flight Tracker ? FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL1110)

Sundays will have 2 mainline a day for the next several weeks. 1 to DEN and 1 to IAH. Capacity at OKC is at a delicate point of being over saturated, so these small capacity additions are to allow the market to grow.

I'm the one who asked the question in Steve's chat, so I guess I'll ask it here, too. I understand that we won't ever be a hub -- too close to Dallas, that system is expanding, etc. My frustration is that I don't understand why our air service isn't on par with say...Austin. Or why it isn't a smaller version of Kansas City. It seems to me that we should have about the same amount of non-stop options as a city like Austin, who, to my knowledge, isn't a hub for anyone either, and is roughly our size. I know this answer is much more complicated than it seems to me, but our air service seems to be pretty weak to me. Now, it's costing us jobs, and I'm wondering what our city can do about it.

Because Austin has somewhere around 10 mil pax a year.

I'm the one who asked the question in Steve's chat, so I guess I'll ask it here, too. I understand that we won't ever be a hub -- too close to Dallas, that system is expanding, etc. My frustration is that I don't understand why our air service isn't on par with say...Austin. Or why it isn't a smaller version of Kansas City. It seems to me that we should have about the same amount of non-stop options as a city like Austin, who, to my knowledge, isn't a hub for anyone either, and is roughly our size. I know this answer is much more complicated than it seems to me, but our air service seems to be pretty weak to me. Now, it's costing us jobs, and I'm wondering what our city can do about it.

Air service here can definitely be improved but probably not to the extent that you think. Austin is actually quite a bit larger than OKC (about 400K more than our MSA), plus it is a moderately active tourist market and it pulls in from several markets in Central Texas (Killeen, College Station, probably even as far away as Waco and San Antonio) We have....Lawton? I find KC's airport to be woefully lacking in its air service considering its size, so thank God we are not a smaller version of them. Our market will need to grow organically to get better service. In the same vein, I am really not crazy about the city economic development dept subsidizing flights.

I am far more familiar with the economic side and it is not costing us as near as much in jobs as Steve alluded to. Air service is just one part of the package a city sells, in addition to workforce, taxes, QOL, and other things that in the grand scheme of things are far more important IMO. Some companies would move to Austin over its air service, some would move to OKC for our better highway system. Just depends on what said company is looking for. Its more important for some firms than others, but most firms approach air service that it is going to be a pain anywhere and has been since 9/11. I would never move a business to one area just based solely on their air service because airlines change that stuff so much.

I definitely would like to see the airport advertise more. I wouldn't know about half the new flights if it weren't for this board.

Because Austin has somewhere around 10 mil pax a year.

And British Airways just announced NS service from London Heathrow to Austin on a 787 so they are definitely in another league. Would love to have their coverage, but it's just not going to happen.

I'm the one who asked the question in Steve's chat, so I guess I'll ask it here, too. I understand that we won't ever be a hub -- too close to Dallas, that system is expanding, etc. My frustration is that I don't understand why our air service isn't on par with say...Austin. Or why it isn't a smaller version of Kansas City. It seems to me that we should have about the same amount of non-stop options as a city like Austin, who, to my knowledge, isn't a hub for anyone either, and is roughly our size. I know this answer is much more complicated than it seems to me, but our air service seems to be pretty weak to me. Now, it's costing us jobs, and I'm wondering what our city can do about it.

People have hit on a lot of the main points. If I had an easier way to break market details down I would so we could compare load factors and revenues between the two. Chances are Austin is MUCH higher. I know median household incomes are about $10k higher in AUS versus OKC, so that plays a lot into it as well. You also have to look at where people need to travel. We also need to simply have the butts to put in the seats. I posted this a few pages back, but it is relevant to this so will post again...

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=c:%233dce1b,OKC-EWR/BWI/IAD/CLE/DTW/MDW/ORD/STL/MSP/ATL/SFB/DAL/DFW/IAH/HOU/DEN/SLC/PHX/LAS/LAX/SFO,%0d%0ac:%231b67ce,OKC-SAT/SAN/FLL/SEA/MCI,%0d%0ac:%23980909,OKC-AUS/BOS/MSY/TPA/SMF/BNA/PDX/PHL/PIT/IND,&MS=wls2&MR=300&MX=720x360&PM=b:7star7%2b%22%25U%2210:black&PC=%23006634&PW=2

GREEN = Existing nonstop service | BLUE = No service, market has 100+ per day | RED = No service, market has 48-99 per day

Those figures are total market. The lowest on the map is CLE with 48 pax per day. That means you still have to take that number and chop it in half. Then take into consideration what they are flying on the route and you are talking aircraft that are about half filled with O&D - on average. Won't happen every day. MCI was a recent cut. You see here a blue line which says more than 100 people a day were flying it, but when you take into considering WN had 2 flights a day on 737s and they were only handling 20-30 O&D pax per flight...it was a pretty dreadful performance.

At the end of the day right now OKC falls into the category of being a right sized market. Load factors are decent but not busting at the seems. Yields are where airlines want them to make money. No one in their right mind, out of the existing operators, would want to screw that up by dumping more capacity on the market right now. We have nonstop service already to nearly every major market from here. Florida has always sucked from OKC, but hopefully G4 can make a go of it. We have good coverage to the Northeast. Yes LIT got nonstop LGA service on AA recently, but i have a feeling the numbers just look better from there. EWR has been a 50-seater for years with no growth - that's a red flag in many cases if you want more capacity to a city.

Is our air service weak? Hardly. I grew up in a city that had nearly 60 nonstop departures a day to around 20 markets nationally. Today...they have on average 6 flights a day to 4 cities (G4 makes up most of those). That's in a city with roughly a million people with in 45 minutes of the airport. For years they were preached "Use it or Lose it" because airport management saw sagging passenger numbers year to year. 9/11 and The Great Recession hit and guess what? Airlines said peace out and pulled the service because people didn't use it. If OKC wants to grow they have to use the existing services here to encourage airlines to spend the assets.

OKC is not AUS and it isn't MCI. MCI is a dying airport that has been on a slow decay. It is an airline graveyard...airlines start up hubs/focus cities there to die. The list of airlines that use to have hubs/focus cities there? Braniff, Eastern, Vanguard, TWA, Frontier, USAir, and Midwest. What do they all have in common? All went bankrupt...and only 2 exist today. One is merging with AA soon and the other is on the auction block as Republic is trying to rid itself of it (Frontier). Yes MCI has a lot of good nonstop destinations...mostly thanks to Southwest retaining a lot of the service the other airlines cut. However it has even been cutting back there now and I expect it to take a pretty good sized hit once Love Field is opened up next year in Dallas.

AUS has a higher local income than OKC and is also a destination for many people. That is something MAPS has been working on fixing here, but we aren't there yet. Very few people in say...Columbus, OH are going to be like "We want to go on vacation out west...Austin or OKC...let's do OKC."

I know this is long, but I want to try to get all my thoughts out on this.

The one part of Steve's reply to everyone has been all against the evil FAA. Claiming the FAA is holding back air service in OKC is a sure sign that the person has no idea what they are talking about. We aren't slot controlled. We already received FAA funding for the airfield. They continue to have a large operation here for ATC - which if anything generates MORE business for the airport. Other than that...they have no real impact. His comment about throwing money at an airline to buy a hub...well no shiitake sherlock. Hubs are expensive, inefficient, and must have a good balance of local O&D and connecting traffic. The industry is maturing right now which means capacity is coming down. AA/US is expected to reduce their combined capacity by 13 million seats a year. Cost of entry right now is too high for new airlines. We are simply going to be a pattern of be thankful for what you have, use it so you don't lose it, and celebrate if you get anything new.

If a company is going to pick Nashville over us because of air service, than that just means the OKC market is not for them...but I also suspect that they were using OKC as a pawn to get the other options to negotiate more.

Now I think there is definitely room for growth and new entrants in the current market. However, they are going to be the local/regional point-to-point carriers using 70-seat or smaller aircraft. The legacies are well established...AA/US, DL, and UA. LCCs are solidified...WN, AS, G4, NK (Spirit)...verdict is still out on F9. The only segment that is missing is the local p2p network/independent regionals that have been decimated chasing after feeder agreements with the legacies. Many have gone out of business and others are on the watch list.