Now I will never say that Tulsa Expo Square (the fairgrounds) is well run but they do charge for parking for some events including the Tulsa State fair. Here Expo Square is owned and run by Tulsa County, not the city. Expo Square overall is pretty nice, much better than it was years ago.

I think they charge $10-$20 for parking during the fair based on where you park. They do have free shuttle busses from various locations if you don’t want to pay. There is no parking on grass allowed and no parking in surrounding neighborhoods.

Tulsa has spent a ton of money on the facilities at Expo Square over the last 10-15 years and there’s currently a $18 million barn under construction. Tulsa has not torn down what here would be called the classic parts of the fairgrounds unless you mean Bell’s, which was a dirty and mean spirited deal. The Golden Driller is still there. If that was torn down this city might riot.

Instead of tearing the major buildings down and replacing them the IPE building was completely redone several years ago, as was the arena, the art deco Expo Square Pavilion. They’ve also kept the old Armory. All the barns and other buildings are all pretty much new, built in the last 10 years or so.

BTW, don't really think you want to hold up fair park in Dallas as good comparison to what we have...

It was just the first example off the top of my head, as it is right down the road. As Swake points out, Tulsa apparently has some similarities. I'm not going to devote a bunch of research to the topic but will grab some other examples when I have time/interest. Paid parking at publicly-owned, taxpayer-funded facilities - even those not in dense urban areas - is hardly unique. As I pointed out in another post, it's undoubtedly a business decision designed to offset operating costs and upkeep. The alternative would be rent increases for facilities, which would increase ticket prices for admission-required events and probably eliminate many free-to-the-public events.

It was just the first example off the top of my head, as it is right down the road. As Swake points out, Tulsa apparently has some similarities. I'm not going to devote a bunch of research to the topic but will grab some other examples when I have time/interest. Paid parking at publicly-owned, taxpayer-funded facilities - even those not in dense urban areas - is hardly unique. As I pointed out in another post, it's undoubtedly a business decision designed to offset operating costs and upkeep. The alternative would be rent increases for facilities, which would increase ticket prices for admission-required events and probably eliminate many free-to-the-public events.

Actually, we have no idea where this money would go and that's really the issue.

OK, so the issue is NOT that there is parking being charged? Thanks, I'll not go seek out other examples then. ;)

OK, so the issue is NOT that there is parking being charged? Thanks, I'll not go seek out other examples then. ;)

That's 'part' of it. But as Pete says, it's not so much the fact that parking is being CHARGED, it's that the lot was paid for, so it isn't going toward that. There's no landscaping, so it isn't going towards that. When they decide to expand the parking, history shows us they will be holding their hands out again, so it isn't going towards that. So if it isn't going to build the lot, and it isn't going to maintain the lot, and it isn't going to expand the lot, then where? You say it might be a business decision to offset the operating costs and upkeep, but there's no evidence of that, there's no way to track it, and there's evidence that it certainly ISN'T going towards that.

^^^^
I believe you are taking what I said too literally; that you take it to mean that parking fees are to pay for operations and maintenance of the lots themselves. I'm not saying that. I'm suggesting parking likely goes to the upkeep and operations of the entire fairgrounds, just like building rentals, concessions, etc.

I'm saying it is simply just an additional revenue stream which goes to the bottom line of the entire fairgrounds operation.

That might be a valid argument for the fairgrounds if they didn't already have a steady flow of taxpayer money coming their way and hadn't seen unprecedented construction (all on the effing cow/horse side). Now they want to build a new arena that incorporates more cow/horse crap in it including a sales theater. I dont recall the fair being built to replace the stockyards. I dont recall the fair being built to become a livestock turnstile. Remember when we had varying sizes of buildings that could host varying sizes of events? Remember when you didn't have to use the convention center for everything? Remember when we had a monorail?

I remember the monorail...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDOI0cq6GZM

Were you sent here by the devil?

That might be a valid argument for the fairgrounds if they didn't already have a steady flow of taxpayer money coming their way and hadn't seen unprecedented construction (all on the effing cow/horse side).


That effing cow/horse side brings in way more money than do all the other non-State Fair events. That is why they are spending the construction money on it.

It seems a larger argument is "What should the State Fairgrounds be?" Is there a happy middle whereby all interested parties can get some of what they see it should be? Or will revenue dollars drive out all but the very large shows and the Fair itself? It seems to me that the Board has already made that decision.

Were you sent here by the devil?

No, good sir, she's visiting her parents this week.

That effing cow/horse side brings in way more money than do all the other non-State Fair events. That is why they are spending the construction money on it.

It seems a larger argument is "What should the State Fairgrounds be?" Is there a happy middle whereby all interested parties can get some of what they see it should be? Or will revenue dollars drive out all but the very large shows and the Fair itself? It seems to me that the Board has already made that decision.

I understand both arguments here. It might be a good business move for the fairgrounds to charge for parking (though I'm really not sure about that). Just because the parking lot area has already been paid for doesn't mean that charging for it is ridiculous. I hardly ever go to the fair, so I'm not really invested in the outcome one way or another.

However... where is all that money going? It seems like they've been raking it in for a very long time, and I don't really see much being done for the amount of money they're supposed to be getting. I don't think an audit is such a bad idea. Let's make sure we aren't getting ripped off here.

BTW, don't really think you want to hold up fair park in Dallas as good comparison to what we have.

Theirs is full of fountains and landscaping and pretty buildings and a glorious music hall and amphitheater.

The whole source of my frustration is that tons of tax dollars and other revenues keep pouring in at 10th & May and all we have to show for it are a handful of completely bare-bones buildings, a bunch of ugly old ones, horse barns, RV parking, badly maintained grounds, dirt parking and acres of new concrete without a single tree and shrub.

I ride by bike through there frequently and it's shockingly bad.

I want to know where all these tax dollars are going and why a group which receives hundreds of millions from citizens has no accountability to the public.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckg1xmTUgAELMGR.jpg https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/263278094891_/Vintage-Post-Card-ADMINISTRATION-BUILDING-TEXAS-CENTENNIAL-EXPOSITION.jpg
Recall how they obtained all those buildings at Fair Park in Dallas--1936 Texas Centennial Exposition World's Fair. OKC had a chance to host the World Fair in 1989 which would have produced many buildings like what you see at Fair Park in Dallas where many countries built their own pavilions--a precedent by many participating countries .


http://media.arkansasonline.com/img/photos/2015/02/13/55542981_0206-AN-WU-OKLA-PHOTO-EXHIBIT-UAFS-002-rgb_t300.jpg?8aff03de2423e912a2467e97388a07f5331c0 5b6 http://www.lippertbros.com/files/cache/2b1e8cdba086beac14a49b1382566b4f_f702.jpg
76,014 record crowd attended the OK89 opening ceremony (89 Olympic Festival) at Memorial Stadium in Norman. OCCC Acquatic Center hosted the swim competition.
Other events like soccer were held in Edmond's 8,000 seat Hafer Park soccer stadium (demolished some years later), rhythmic gymnastics in Yukon (High school) and ice hockey at the State Fair Arena.

OKC's 400 plus acres would have provided the most space allotted any World's Fair. Recall our first reaction about bidding for the World's Fair: "Our fairgrounds isn't large enough to host a World's Fair."

1982 World's Fair in Knoxville, TN known as the "Knoxville International Energy Exposition' was held on approximately that 70 acres.

We did submit a bid for the '89 World's Fair: http://newsok.com/answer-could-take-6-months-city-worlds-fair-bid-reviewed/article/2054196 http://newsok.com/article/2040526

When will OKC celebrate its 150th (sesquicentennial?)

Paris, France & Chicago were bidding that year; we did obtain the 1989 Olympic Festival which set record attendance for many events.

Main event: 1989 Olympic Festival used wide range of venues around Oklahoma City: http://newsok.com/article/3386554

Saw the architectural renderings of the new arena being built in Ft. Worth and they are truly outstanding! Timeless and classy. Perhaps this should spur the State Fairgrounds Commission to set their sights jyst acwee bit higher fir the proposed StatecFairvArena. Try building something we can actually be proud of. Aluminum and glass only goes so far.

Saw the architectural renderings of the new arena being built in Ft. Worth and they are truly outstanding! Timeless and classy. Perhaps this should spur the State Fairgrounds Commission to set their sights jyst acwee bit higher fir the proposed StatecFairvArena. Try building something we can actually be proud of. Aluminum and glass only goes so far.

That Ft. Worth arena is incredible!

That effing cow/horse side brings in way more money than do all the other non-State Fair events. That is why they are spending the construction money on it.

It seems a larger argument is "What should the State Fairgrounds be?" Is there a happy middle whereby all interested parties can get some of what they see it should be? Or will revenue dollars drive out all but the very large shows and the Fair itself? It seems to me that the Board has already made that decision.

And i think that right there is why it angers so many people so much. That the fair board has decided that the grounds main purpose is to bring in money from horse and cattle shows. All the other things that go on there are now secondary to the place serving that purpose. And i think partly why it pisses OKCers off so much is that we've fought so hard to convince the world that we aren't all about cows and farms and stuff, that this goes completely counter to it. Not only that, but the people that come here aren't from OK county, so they aren't paying taxes in to the fairgrounds either.

Now i get it, that means they have to come in and get hotel rooms, buy food, etc. So yeah its great for the city to bring in more money.....blah blah blah blah. But that doesn't mean it doesn't we have to like it. And as someone else said, the money trail is now the question.
1 - these structures are built with tax dollars. It's not like they're using income from the shows to do this stuff.
2 - they never seemed interested in replacing the deteriorating buildings until they helped support horses. We could have had a proposal on a ballot 20 years ago to replace some of those crap buildings. Now we've got an Expo Center that i still think is a failed design since it uses support columns in the middle of the floor (ie no unimpeded contiguous space) and only has one entrance. Compare to Expo Square in Tulsa. You can actually do arena like activities in there and bring in stands for it. It just means its more flexible and we could have do that, but we didn't. Hmmm, i wonder why? Maybe because they needed a reason to build a new arena. Oh wait, theyr'e trying to do that to? And what's that design geared towards....cows and horses.
3 - since the structures were built with tax money, they should now have more money freed up that they used to have to spend on maintenance and upkeep (not that they did any mind you).
4 - since #3 is there, why the hell are they wanting to charge for parking? They should have more money coming in from all these horse/cow shows they're so proud of, to gold plate some of these roads.

I'd like to see a top-down audit of the finances of the place done and made public. I have a feeling that we wouldn't like the results. Or someone's pushing an agenda that they are choosing not to share. And if you can't tell, people do get passionate about the place. Our memories of good times as children are being taken and replaced with barns.

Anyone miss the airplanes? I do. At least one of them is in MWC now. The Douglas airplane that was actually built in MWC is now at Regional Park as of Sunday. So at least one of the displays stayed intact. Thank You Gary Banz, OK Historical Society, et al.

Now we've got an Expo Center that i still think is a failed design since it uses support columns in the middle of the floor (ie no unimpeded contiguous space) and only has one entrance.

Minor thing: There actually are three entrances into the building. There's the main grand entrance on the SE side of the building, but there are smaller entrances in the north corner and west corner.

Now we've got an Expo Center that i still think is a failed design since it uses support columns in the middle of the floor (ie no unimpeded contiguous space) and only has one entrance. Compare to Expo Square in Tulsa. You can actually do arena like activities in there and bring in stands for it. It just means its more flexible and we could have do that, but we didn't. Hmmm, i wonder why? Maybe because they needed a reason to build a new arena. Oh wait, theyr'e trying to do that to? And what's that design geared towards....cows and horses.
.

My wife went to a trade show there and left with high regard. Thought the facility was very good.

Saw the architectural renderings of the new arena being built in Ft. Worth and they are truly outstanding! Timeless and classy. Perhaps this should spur the State Fairgrounds Commission to set their sights jyst acwee bit higher fir the proposed StatecFairvArena. Try building something we can actually be proud of. Aluminum and glass only goes so far.

Are you talking about the $450 MILLION arena? What would you say if the Fairgrounds Authority or our mayor proposed a $450 Million arena at the fair grounds? Is this what you would accept for setting our sights a bit higher? LOL

They are also building a 2,600 car parking facility. We know how everyone on here loves parking and the city paying for parking structures.

I would support them paying that much. The fairgrounds need to be made special again. That’s going to take money.

If the mayor proposed a $450 million dollar arena? I'd say let me introduce you to my friend, Charles Ulysses Farley.

If the fairgrounds wants to do it with their own money? Who am I to say no? Of course, we all know they'd hold their hands out (again), so let me introduce you to my friend, Charles Ulysses Farley.

If the mayor proposed a $450 million dollar arena? I'd say let me introduce you to my friend, Charles Ulysses Farley.

If the fairgrounds wants to do it with their own money? Who am I to say no? Of course, we all know they'd hold their hands out (again), so let me introduce you to my friend, Charles Ulysses Farley.
Many people in OKC would. There’s a reason Dallas has nicer things than OKC another than it’s massive size and tax base. I’ve been through many cities of OKC’s size or smaller that have much nicer amenities, streets, infrastructure, public works projects, and transit than OKC does. Now I couldn’t tell you all of the reasons for it, but looking at Fort Worth as an example, their $450 million dollar arena is going to be much nicer than this proposed arena.

I try not to judge things before I see them but this looks like it will be bare minimum no frills stadium and OKC majors in that. The new police station and court show that. Those are older projects and they built nice parks now but they need to work on their public works buildings. They showcase the city. There should be no expense spared.

Ft. Worth has their Stock Show which will be held inside the new arena. It will also hold sporting events and concerts. Be aware, it will be built next to their stock barns. This facility will compete with the State Fair Arena and will probably be able to lure some prize shows away from Okc. Ft. Worth is fortunate that one of the Bass Brothers is paying for most of the arena. I dont know if the cost to build a competative arena would be as high but something pretty special would be necessary to be competative. These are not your typical pro-sports palaces so they should be usable a lot longer the way the current arena is. $500 - $700 per citizen unless some other source can be found.

To me, a competative facility is a necessity or risk losing these valuable shows. It could also be the spur to transform the fairgrounds back to a place we can be proud of.

Are you talking about the $450 MILLION arena? What would you say if the Fairgrounds Authority or our mayor proposed a $450 Million arena at the fair grounds? Is this what you would accept for setting our sights a bit higher? LOL

They are also building a 2,600 car parking facility. We know how everyone on here loves parking and the city paying for parking structures.

Its 450 million dollars because its twice the size and has a lot more amenities. We could afford to spend a little extra for a nice exterior.

http://www.wfaa.com/img/resize/content.wfaa.com/photo/2017/04/18/dickies_arena_rendering_1492537586381_9248739_ver1 .0.jpg?preset=534-401

Fort Worth's new $540 million Dickies Arena (under construction will have 14,000 permanent seats; very similar to the new arena Jacksonville built (Veterans Memorial Arena). This arena will be a nice arena with top notch amenities; but I wouldn't expect it to accommodate an NBA or NHL franchise. It will have the potential to lure many of the horse shows currently stationed in OKC. OKC will have to build a competitive facility to keep these horse shows at the Fairgrounds.

Our city receives a lot of economic benefits tied to these horse show events. It will take a new facility at the fairground to compete with a facility of the magnitude that Ft. Worth has under construction.

Dickies Arena under construction @ Will Rogers Memorial Center: http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article176977176.html

Agree with Plutonic Panda, OKC needs to invest in some quality facilities. We tend to build a basic shell (like Chesapeake Arena) then renovate as money becomes available.

and we 'renovate' to minimum passable spec at that (see the Ford Center).

OKC is doing better though. It seems like soon it will spend more for this kind of stuff. Last time I took Amtrak back from DFW(my usual route for travel) I saw a very nice renovated Santa Fe station. It’s just the outside I wish they did more with in terms of lighting but maybe they haven’t go to it.

But the fairgrounds needs a complexity new mindset instead of whoever is currently running it. Monorail should extended(even work with city to go to convention center), new parking garage, new arena, direct connect ramps from i-44 into the fair grounds, new formula one track and ring track with stadium, and space needle built and arch rebuilt

I would support them paying that much. The fairgrounds need to be made special again. That’s going to take money.
You would advocate spending a half billion dollars on a building at the fairgrounds because it looks nice to house horse shows? Lol.

You would advocate spending a half billion dollars on a building at the fairgrounds because it looks nice to house horse shows? Lol.
I included your name in my post but I dropped it haha... I figured you respond to this for some reason. Yes, if building being built in Fort Worth was proposed for the fair grounds stadium, I’d support it. Could host much more than horse shows plus it showcases the City of OKC! It should look grand. OKC is a grand city, so it’s public works buildings should reflect that. I know for a fact that tons of foreigners come to the horse show and will see the stadium. That’s their impression. Make it a good one!

Many people in OKC would. There’s a reason Dallas has nicer things than OKC another than it’s massive size and tax base. I’ve been through many cities of OKC’s size or smaller that have much nicer amenities, streets, infrastructure, public works projects, and transit than OKC does. Now I couldn’t tell you all of the reasons for it, but looking at Fort Worth as an example, their $450 million dollar arena is going to be much nicer than this proposed arena.

I try not to judge things before I see them but this looks like it will be bare minimum no frills stadium and OKC majors in that. The new police station and court show that. Those are older projects and they built nice parks now but they need to work on their public works buildings. They showcase the city. There should be no expense spared.


Let me be explicitly clear, I'm not saying OKC shouldn't have something similar, I'm saying OKC shouldn't pay for the fairgrounds to have something similar. As has already been discussed several times. You want to showcase the city? Let's do it. You want to showcase horse shows? Charles Ulysses Farley, pay for it yourself.

But the fairgrounds needs a complexity new mindset instead of whoever is currently running it. Monorail should extended(even work with city to go to convention center), new parking garage, new arena, direct connect ramps from i-44 into the fair grounds, new formula one track and ring track with stadium, and space needle built and arch rebuilt

Now this we can agree on. Get the fairgrounds to stop acting like an unaccountable private entity. Get them to work WITH the city, not against it.

Amen

Many people in OKC would. There’s a reason Dallas has nicer things than OKC another than it’s massive size and tax base. I’ve been through many cities of OKC’s size or smaller that have much nicer amenities, streets, infrastructure, public works projects, and transit than OKC does. Now I couldn’t tell you all of the reasons for it, but looking at Fort Worth as an example, their $450 million dollar arena is going to be much nicer than this proposed arena.

I try not to judge things before I see them but this looks like it will be bare minimum no frills stadium and OKC majors in that. The new police station and court show that. Those are older projects and they built nice parks now but they need to work on their public works buildings. They showcase the city. There should be no expense spared.

So, you are okay with OKC's spending on the new CC, CC Hotel etc? We will get a state of the art facility and our first 4* Hotel. All I have heard is complaining about our spending. So, is the new thought that if it is a public building our showcases our city then the expense is okay?

If you have a house, it costs money to keep it up. The payoff is overall higher property values. A city must invest in itself with a payoff of new business, new residents and a vibrant economy. OKC has done a tremendous job of this over the past 25 years with all the MAPS projects. One of OKCs least appreciated assets and main sources of tourism, hotel taxes and out of town sales taxes are the visitors who come for the livestock and horse shows. Ft. Worth is about to open a world-class facility and are certain to start bidding for some of these shows. Unless OKC is willing to just roll over and turn belly-up to Ft. Worth, the facility at the Fairgrounds must be competitive. The current arena certainly is not. I don't recall enough information about the proposed one but whatever is done, it needs to be first-class.

As far as the hotel, there is obviously a segment of the population, both on the left and the right, who believes there should be no public-private partnerships because the money invested by the government in such partnerships amounts to corporate welfare. Please note, the Ft. Worth arena is such a public/private partnership.

Now this we can agree on. Get the fairgrounds to stop acting like an unaccountable private entity. Get them to work WITH the city, not against it.+1000

So, you are okay with OKC's spending on the new CC, CC Hotel etc? We will get a state of the art facility and our first 4* Hotel. All I have heard is complaining about our spending. So, is the new thought that if it is a public building our showcases our city then the expense is okay?
When it’s all said and done, I would support a billion dollar convention center. Look at how nice Nashville’s is. I know they have a lot more shows but OKC should at least try. The potential is there for OKC to have good conventions.

Right now, OKC has a lot of things it can spend money on to improve the city, without breaking the bank. Still a lot of low-hanging fruit to pick.

I'm not against us building a world class facility, but spending $450 million on a fairgrounds arena is not at the top of my list.

Despite the immediate tbreat of taking away much of OKCs best tourism and hotel occupancy sources? Do you remember the economic loss and loss of prestige when the NFR left for Las Vegas? Think beyond your immediate wallet. The arena in Ft. Worth is not a threat to The Peake, but it IS a direct and immediate threat to the SFA. With all the rest the DFW has to offer, once some of these shows leave, they won't come back. When that happens, Meridian starts to become an empty eyesore.

Take that 450 million and put it into an expanded streetcar, see how much economic activity that generates. I'll bet it's more than an opulent arena.

With that much money, we could have like 4x the length of the current system. Bet we could run it down to Capitol Hill, over to Stockyards City, up to the Health Sciences Center, to the capitol building, and down 23rd all the way to OCU. That would be huge for the city, and would affect a lot more people than the horse shows.

You're looking at this from the wrong direction. I'm talking about saving business we already have and will be in great danger of losing. I have to disagree that the simple existence of a streetcar system will generate similar economic revenue. We have seen how hard it is to attract new companies ftor economic growth. DFW sits south of OKC like a huge vacuum diverting any interest away and perfectly willing to give any incentives a company might want. Its far easier to keep what you have than to attract new ones. Besides, as I said earler, I don't think a competitive facility in OKC would cost $450m since land is already available and utilities are there. Also, with revenues generated by the existing events, citizens would not be on the hook for it all. I bet it could be a similar situation as Ft Worth with6 thueir public-private partnership. OKC has shows in place for the moment, Ft. Worth will have to go looking to fill time slots for theirs.

City needs to take a feasibility study to determine the viability of continuing to upgrade the fairgrounds or pump more money into areas around the new convention center to make the area more horse-industry friendly. The upgrade and expansion of The Peake could become the centerpiece for the convention industry to accommodate conventions & trade shows.

You don't want to lose the horse shows; as Mugofbeer mentioned, once these shows relocate to Fort Worth, the Metroplex will own them permanently. Have we not learned for the loss of the NFR.

Agree with Plutonic Panda, we have got to invest in some quality facilities if we want to keep what few events we have. Estimated economic impact of 15 of the national and world level horse shows held in Oklahoma City alone is more than $100 million annually.

Laramie, you wont see the same type of shows at the CC that you do at the fair. The cost of putting on a show at the CC is going to be a lot higher than at the fair. Something like the gunshow, just between friends, affair of the heart, etc are not going to ever be at the CC. If the fair ever becomes too costly, they'll just start looking at other venues around town (as some already have).

You're looking at this from the wrong direction. I'm talking about saving business we already have and will be in great danger of losing. I have to disagree that the simple existence of a streetcar system will generate similar economic revenue. We have seen how hard it is to attract new companies ftor economic growth. DFW sits south of OKC like a huge vacuum diverting any interest away and perfectly willing to give any incentives a company might want. Its far easier to keep what you have than to attract new ones. Besides, as I said earler, I don't think a competitive facility in OKC would cost $450m since land is already available and utilities are there. Also, with revenues generated by the existing events, citizens would not be on the hook for it all. I bet it could be a similar situation as Ft Worth with6 thueir public-private partnership. OKC has shows in place for the moment, Ft. Worth will have to go looking to fill time slots for theirs.

I'm not convinced at all that we're in a "build several hundred million dollar arena or lose the horse shows" situation here. Like bombermwc said, I think the cost of hosting the horse shows would be significantly more expensive at the new Ft Worth arena than it would be at our fairgrounds.

That's not to say that we can't make our fairgrounds nicer. But I'd like a public accounting of where all that money goes before we look at building a bunch of new things for them.

Found out a week ago that was the last 1-day Motorcycle Swap Meet Jeff Williams will hold in Oklahoma City. They've been happening at the Fairgrounds for decades. They want so-much for the buildings he cant make ends meet. He's raised booth prices to the point vendors can't justify, and admission fees enough to shrink crowds.
I don't attend the Fair, I'll have no reason to go out there now.
drinner

I'm not convinced at all that we're in a "build several hundred million dollar arena or lose the horse shows" situation here. Like bombermwc said, I think the cost of hosting the horse shows would be significantly more expensive at the new Ft Worth arena than it would be at our fairgrounds.

That's not to say that we can't make our fairgrounds nicer. But I'd like a public accounting of where all that money goes before we look at building a bunch of new things for them.

Ft. Worths facility already has barns in place used by the stock show. I guaranty you that they will do what they have to, including reduced costs, subsidies, corporate sponsorships -ANYTHING - to get the shows to move there.

Ft. Worths facility already has barns in place used by the stock show. I guaranty you that they will do what they have to, including reduced costs, subsidies, corporate sponsorships -ANYTHING - to get the shows to move there.

So you're saying they are desperate after spending half a billion dollars? That's really not much of an argument that we should as well.

So you're saying they are desperate after spending half a billion dollars? That's really not much of an argument that we should as well.

Amen - like with Amazon, i'm not willing to give away "the farm" just to get them here.

Amen - like with Amazon, i'm not willing to give away "the farm" just to get them here.

But the horse shows do bring in LOTS of money from around the world into our economy. There's a real ROI on keeping them here. Big picture, though, getting an Amazon sorting facility is really just a slight economic mitigator that offsets a very small portion of the money they suck out of the local economy.

But the horse shows do bring in LOTS of money from around the world into our economy. There's a real ROI on spending to keep them here. Big picture, though, getting an Amazon sorting facility is really just a slight economic mitigator that offsets a very small portion of the money they suck out of the local economy.
Has a study been done in the last 10 years to determine the ROI?

Has a study been done in the last 10 years to determine the ROI?

I'm pretty sure I posted articles that had the numbers in them up thread. I know it was more than Thunder numbers and I think more than what the new CC was sold on. I'll try and remember to find the studies for you. Of course, I don't think there was an actual ratio included, but it gets you in the ball park.

So you're saying they are desperate after spending half a billion dollars? That's really not much of an argument that we should as well.

Oh you're smarter than that. Anyone starting a new business is going to work to attract customers. I think you can figure out the rest.

I'm pretty sure I posted articles that had the numbers in them up thread. I know it was more than Thunder numbers and I think more than what the new CC was sold on. I'll try and remember to find the studies for you. Of course, I don't think there was an actual ratio included, but it gets you in the ball park.

A quIck look was $185 million in tax and facility revenue from outside OKC.

Out-of-town money revenue stream in our city is an integral part of our growth.

We can't justify a new $250-$300 million arena comparable to FW Dickies Arena at the Fairgrounds. We have a new convention center that will be closer to The Peake where you could expand & renovate the main Arena to include more exhibition space.

The Peake could provide more seating than the 14,000 seats available in Cowtown. Some barns and a parking garage & surface area could be added to the convention center's proposed plan that includes a deal to acquire OG&E data center, the “gold building,” at SW 3 Street & Broadway Avenue, where the garage/surface parking will be built. We're looking at close to $40 for parking.


Summary: Let the Fair Trust Board build their proposed $80 million arena at the fairgrounds; have a plan to move the horse show events from the fairgrounds to the downtown convention center complex to accommodate growth as needed,

Oh you're smarter than that. Anyone starting a new business is going to work to attract customers. I think you can figure out the rest.

Apparently I'm really not. I just can't figure out how they're going to pay that much debt with, in your own words, reduced costs and subsidies. I have to assume by costs you mean the charges to hold events there, as the power company isn't just going to cut them any slack just for the fun of it. You then said, again in your own words, caps yours, they would so ANYTHING to attract business. This reeks of desperation to me.

The best I can think of is you are proposing they operate at a loss for a period of time to attract the business, then once the contracts are up, raise prices and drive them away. Just as our own fairgrounds is doing right now. Again, this is a strategy WE DO NOT NEED HERE. We already have that. I'm shocked people still think that "we sell at a loss, how do we get away with it? VOLUME!" is a viable business model.

But the horse shows do bring in LOTS of money from around the world into our economy. There's a real ROI on keeping them here. Big picture, though, getting an Amazon sorting facility is really just a slight economic mitigator that offsets a very small portion of the money they suck out of the local economy.

I didnt mean the sorting facility, i meant the Amazon HQ thing and my desire to NOT pursue it.

I didnt mean the sorting facility, i meant the Amazon HQ thing and my desire to NOT pursue it.

Ahhh, Gotcha. Sorry about that.

Apparently I'm really not. I just can't figure out how they're going to pay that much debt with, in your own words, reduced costs and subsidies. I have to assume by costs you mean the charges to hold events there, as the power company isn't just going to cut them any slack just for the fun of it. You then said, again in your own words, caps yours, they would so ANYTHING to attract business. This reeks of desperation to me.

The best I can think of is you are proposing they operate at a loss for a period of time to attract the business, then once the contracts are up, raise prices and drive them away. Just as our own fairgrounds is doing right now. Again, this is a strategy WE DO NOT NEED HERE. We already have that. I'm shocked people still think that "we sell at a loss, how do we get away with it? VOLUME!" is a viable business model.

The Ft. Worth arena is a public-private partnership with the city paying around $200mm and one of the Bass Brothers paying around $220 mm. The Bass Brothers are the ones who bought up blocks of downtown Ft. Worth and created Sundance square. They bought and built on their own in the 1980s when Ft. Worths downtown was as dead as OKC. They attracted restaurants and retail at an initial loss, held on for better times and were quite successfull. I imagine the brother here will be quie willing to forego positive cash flow for a while - but not forever. They will aggressively go after the OKC shows once the arena is complete.

It the Bass brothers did here what they did there, there would be great howling on this board that they were trying to force their vision on the city, that they were not inclusive, that they were elitist, Yadda, yadda yadda.... it happened there. If you think they are doing this without substantial say, you are wrong. Their thumbprints are all over.

My point is that we need to cultivate and cooperate with benefactors here and not demonize them. What they try to do many times works out just fine.

State Fairgrounds plans to begin charging for parking for all events (http://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=443-State-Fairgrounds-plans-to-begin-charging-for-parking-for-all-events)

The City of Oklahoma City has filed building permits to construct four entrance plazas at the State Fair Park to facilitate the collection of parking fees.


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The plazas will cost a total of $2.8 million to construct and once complete in late 2018, the fairgrounds will then start to collect parking fees for all events in what they call the 'premium parking' areas, which are effectively all the paved lots at the complex.

To date, the fairgrounds has only charged for parking during the State Fair of Oklahoma which runs for 11 days every September. However, State Fair Park hosts over 200 additional events throughout the year, including many trade shows, equestrian and livestock events and state high school basketball and wrestling championships. Under the new plan, attendees for all these events would be charged for parking within the entrance gates and on the paved lots.


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Oklahoma State Fair Inc. is the not-for-profit 501(c)(3) organization which operates the fairgrounds on behalf of Oklahoma City, which owns the property and improvements. The upcoming change is the decision of that group.

Spokesperson for Oklahoma State Fair Inc. Scott Munz told OKCTalk in a phone interview that they changes are necessary to better maintain control of vehicles in and out of the complex and to pay for increased security and patrol of the lots.


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Munz said other than the 190 acres controlled by the new plazas, the remainder of the 435 acres at the site will remain as free parking.

Munz said that parking fees have yet to be established. During the state fair, the parking charge is $10.

Munz was not able to provide estimates of revenues and expenses but said any profit must be spent at the fairgrounds as part of their non-profit status and arrangement with the city.

In addition to operating the fairgrounds facilities, Oklahoma State Fair Inc. also operates the Oklahoma State Fair and since it is not a government body, their financials and meetings are not open to the public.

Most of the paved parking within the complex was paid for through MAPS initiatives, as were improvements to Norick Arena and the new Expo Building which recently opened.

As OKCTalk was first to report, Oklahoma State Fair Inc. has drawn plans to completely replace the 50 year-old Norick Arena with a new facility (http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=42468&p=963554). Munz said they sought to be included in the recent General Obligation Bond that was voted on this past fall, but that the new facility did not make the final cut of projects. Munz said they will seek other funding sources in the future.



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The $2.8 million to pay for the entrance plazas will come from the city-wide 5.5% hotel tax. By law, the fairgrounds receives 6/11ths of those collections for improvements.


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honestly surprised it took this long, OKC has been missing out on added revenue via parking for a long time (especially at the airport)