Probably a combination of both.

If we had a situation where there was an amusement park operating year round during good weather seasons where they incorporated the Space Tower and Monorail, you would have seen a more vibrant State Fair of Oklahoma. The speedway was too noisy to keep on site. You could hear the stock cars within a 10-12 mile radius.

If Frontier City were to relocate to the Fairgrounds (IMO) they could reap the benefits. This would justify building a new 500' Space Tower and Monorail operating 9 months a year.

IMO, there's still time to do something to make upgrades and have an annual 10 day September Fair (Autumn) and smaller 5 day Fair in April (Spring) with something like an April Fools theme. The Fairgrounds IMO is underutilized for the amount of acreage OKC has available.

OKC wants to keep those Equine events & shows in our community; the economic impact is too great to let them go elsewhere. Guthrie's Lazy E took one of those events. The new 4,500 (hair back) seat coliseum provides just enough room to not feel the emptiness of a 14,000 seat FW Dickies Arena or an 8,500 seat OKC Fairgrounds Arena.

As for the return of Ice Hockey to Oklahoma City, let's see what's on the horizon.Yeah, the track was loud. However I loved the sound. But if there was one icon that there was justification for tearing down because of waning interest it would be the track. I can't believe I said that!
I can probably count the number of Friday nights on my fingers and toes that I wasn't there in some capacity from the late 60s to when it closed. In the 60s to the 70s there were often car counts well over a hundred. The stands were usually pretty packed too. Then through the 80s car counts dropped because it just got more expensive to race. When the classes were Champ Dirt, Modified and Street Stock it wasn't uncommon to have 10 Champ cars, less than 20 Modifieds and maybe 30 Street Stock. Fewer cars made for fewer fans. Then the promoter started changing classes to attract cars from surrounding states like we had in the heyday. That failed. Car counts were the same or worse. One night I remember well we only had 1 Limited Sprint heat, 1 Late Model heat and 2 Street Stock heats. Then the A-Features. Almost empty stands. It was sad for me. My beloved and once extremely popular track was failing near the end. At least I got a brick when it came down.

And gun shows. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a city with as many gun shows as OKC. Good for them as it generates revenue. Why does the prospect of horse shows and have a cultured world class fair grounds with racing grand stands, space needle, arch, and monorail have to be mutually exclusive?

Build a formula one track on the parking lots to the north and demolish the neighborhood north of ne 10 and make the street a tunnel. Build parking garages. Bring professional track racing here to OKC bam new tourist generator. Extend monorail to downtown OKC transit center and airport.

The Fairgrounds could use a number of things.

Paved parking and a 2,000 space garage--trouble is could you justify spending $30 million on paved parking and a garage, $25 million on a space tower, $10 million on a monorail.

MAPS 4 has $37.5 million for a multi-purpose stadium. Leadership wants the stadium close to the CBD.

Who knows, by 2030 (1.75 million estimated MSA) our city could be looking at MLB, where a venue investment would be no less than $800 million with a relocation/expansion franchise in Bricktown because the current ballpark has an expansion limit of approximately 32,000; less than the recommended 40,000 seats being used in newer stadiums. I know there are cities ahead of OKC for MLB such as Orlando, Charlotte (NFL, NBA), San Antonio, Portland, Austin, Las Vegas (NFL, NHL), Indianapolis (NFL, NBA); however, we have a funding mechanism in place if voters elect to bring MLB to OKC.

Mayor Mick Cornett pushed the idea that OKC-TUL television households show a growing trend that this is a combined TV market.

I’d love MLB. I’ve really gotten turned on to baseball but I’ve yet to attend a dodgers game in LA. It looks like a fun time.

I’d love MLB. I’ve really gotten turned on to baseball but I’ve yet to attend a dodgers game in LA. It looks like a fun time.
You need to go. We go to St Louis at least 2 or 3 weekends a year. And I've been to games in Arlington, Kansas City and Houston. I've loved baseball all my life but I have to say it's a LOT better in person.

Thought Steve had a pretty good article about the degradation of the fairgrounds into nothing but horse shows today https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2021/11/07/okc-fairgrounds-landmarks-largely-absent-makeover-nears-its-end/5917537001/

I can't read it, but the horse shows certainly bring in way more money annually than the fair itself ever could. Most economic impact studies put the horse industry at or near the top of all other event industries we have here.

I'm not sure if the removal of fair specific attractions was to facilitate the upgrades in horse facilities, but would be interested to see if the author was able to draw a straight line there. It's possible, but it doesn't make a lot of sense.

There are a lot of problems with how the fairgrounds are run and operated in general, but supporting an important international economic engine for the city isn't a bad thing. Obviously, one may have reservations about publicly funded ventures that disproportionately support a given industry or interest, but we'd have to roll back a ton of spending and policies all over the place to get in line with that philosophy.

I'm not sure why people have the idea these things can't co-exist, but running down the horse shows may prove to not be beneficial to those who want a renaissance of the state fair, because if bigger and better attractions are to be brought back to the 10 day fair event, I'd imagine that revenue generated by all the horse shows would be a good first place to look for funding. The problem is that we don't know much about why or how the fairgrounds leadership does what it does. as it's not very transparent.

And gun shows. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a city with as many gun shows as OKC. Good for them as it generates revenue. Why does the prospect of horse shows and have a cultured world class fair grounds with racing grand stands, space needle, arch, and monorail have to be mutually exclusive?

Build a formula one track on the parking lots to the north and demolish the neighborhood north of ne 10 and make the street a tunnel. Build parking garages. Bring professional track racing here to OKC bam new tourist generator. Extend monorail to downtown OKC transit center and airport.

I dream of the day Oklahoma has more circuit tracks. The only one I can think of is Hallett in Jennings. Thunder Valley in Noble and Tulsa Raceway Park has a pretty decent reputation, and at one time (1958 maybe) NHRA Nationals were held at the fairgrounds. I've become enamored with motorsports over the last 5 years and learned that OKC has a very stout automotive culture with a lot of reputable builders. I just bought a Porsche 944, and shortly thereafter found out that a pretty popular supplier of aftermarket racing parts is located here in OKC. On another forum, I've heard of people from all over shipping blocks and heads to them for work, and probably see someone mention them once a day.

All of that said, I don't know if any of that stuff will return near the Fairgrounds due to noise, though a guy can dream. I do remember hearing at one point, the city was trying to get a Formula E race here in OKC. That would be a good get. Formula E has a pretty broad international audience and doesn't create nearly the noise. In addition, they typically races on city streets instead of a purpose built track.

I dream of the day Oklahoma has more circuit tracks. The only one I can think of is Hallett in Jennings. Thunder Valley in Noble and Tulsa Raceway Park has a pretty decent reputation, and at one time (1958 maybe) NHRA Nationals were held at the fairgrounds. I've become enamored with motorsports over the last 5 years and learned that OKC has a very stout automotive culture with a lot of reputable builders. I just bought a Porsche 944, and shortly thereafter found out that a pretty popular supplier of aftermarket racing parts is located here in OKC. On another forum, I've heard of people from all over shipping blocks and heads to them for work, and probably see someone mention them once a day.

All of that said, I don't know if any of that stuff will return near the Fairgrounds due to noise, though a guy can dream. I do remember hearing at one point, the city was trying to get a Formula E race here in OKC. That would be a good get. Formula E has a pretty broad international audience and doesn't create nearly the noise. In addition, they typically races on city streets instead of a purpose built track.
Other than humming and tire squeal Formula E is quiet. I'd definitely go to all the related events of a Formula E weekend. And while it's true that F-E races are usually on city streets it could be done on the FG roads. Probably not but it could be done.

Other than humming and tire squeal Formula E is quiet. I'd definitely go to all the related events of a Formula E weekend. And while it's true that F-E races are usually on city streets it could be done on the FG roads. Probably not but it could be done.

Typically, they are running on narrow courses, so it could probably be done on fairground streets. Looking at Google Earth aerial imagery from 9/24/2020, it looks as though they had some sort of race course in the parking lot where the old speedway was. I was wondering what that was, maybe an autocross event? But I've recently been thinking that trying to attract some variety of motorsports to OKC and the fairgrounds seems like an more reasonable proposition than trying to attract a franchise, like MLS, MLB, or NHL. I just don't really have a decent gauge of demand for that sort of thing as I am the only F1/motorsports fan I personally know.

Typically, they are running on narrow courses, so it could probably be done on fairground streets. Looking at Google Earth aerial imagery from 9/24/2020, it looks as though they had some sort of race course in the parking lot where the old speedway was. I was wondering what that was, maybe an autocross event? But I've recently been thinking that trying to attract some variety of motorsports to OKC and the fairgrounds seems like an more reasonable proposition than trying to attract a franchise, like MLS, MLB, or NHL. I just don't really have a decent gauge of demand for that sort of thing as I am the only F1/motorsports fan I personally know.

It was probably not an SCCA event as those are usually held at Remington Park. There was talk about a motorsports park at one point but I haven't heard anything lately. It would be great to get an additional track that is similar to Hallet in the metro area, hell even if the Sheriff's training course would open again to events that'd be great. Having grass roots racing is the start and the key, we can't add another F1 stop most likely here in the states and this close.

The issue with the State fair speedway as I recall was that it was going to be quite the undertaking to bring it to ADA compliancy and they didn't want to fund that. I personally never had a problem with the noise but I grew up building roundy motors with my dad and we're by 10th & Portland. I'm glad to see so many people are really loving F1 with the new Netflix series focusing on the behind the scenes drama but we again need to get a grass roots race course here in the area.

The Porsche shop you're talking about is most likely Lindsay Performance over here by 36th & Portland. Dumont's down town is also a Porsche only shop.

It was probably not an SCCA event as those are usually held at Remington Park. There was talk about a motorsports park at one point but I haven't heard anything lately. It would be great to get an additional track that is similar to Hallet in the metro area, hell even if the Sheriff's training course would open again to events that'd be great. Having grass roots racing is the start and the key, we can't add another F1 stop most likely here in the states and this close.

The Porsche shop you're talking about is most likely Lindsay Performance over here by 36th & Portland. Dumont's down town is also a Porsche only shop.

I am talking about Lindsey. I've already stopped by and met Dave, I believe.

I have no illusions about getting a big act like F1 to OKC. There is no way we can compete with COTA, but it'd be nice to have a place to see grassroot racing other than dirt track or drag racing. Even though, I am grateful that we do have those options. But AFAIK there aren't even any PCA events in OK. That really surprised me. The fairgrounds seems like the most likely public facility that could hold something like that. I just don't know how popular it would be with the neighbors. Fingers crossed though.

To be fair, I'm not happy with the poop smells that linger from the horse shows or the stockyards. If it's weekend racing not scaring the livestock, they should be able to deal!

Typically, they are running on narrow courses, so it could probably be done on fairground streets. Looking at Google Earth aerial imagery from 9/24/2020, it looks as though they had some sort of race course in the parking lot where the old speedway was. I was wondering what that was, maybe an autocross event? But I've recently been thinking that trying to attract some variety of motorsports to OKC and the fairgrounds seems like an more reasonable proposition than trying to attract a franchise, like MLS, MLB, or NHL. I just don't really have a decent gauge of demand for that sort of thing as I am the only F1/motorsports fan I personally know.
9/24/20 was an autocross event. I don't do them but I'm in couple Miata groups and hear about them.

Exactly, there's always a negative to anything but the Fair Icons were just that - OKC Icons of history and lore. Yet they were removed WITHOUT A VOTE OR NOTICE TO THE PEOPLE OF OKC!! That to me is the real issue and not that the cars were loud because yes the smell is even worse (so therefore we should get rid of the horseshows?). Both should have been able to coexist - it's what makes other fairs nationwide unique and exciting (old + new, "ag" + modern: in one setting) and is what USED TO make OKC's fair one of the top in the nation. Now, it's an afterthought IMO; not even worth considering if it weren't for the food (which itself has also been significantly downsized).

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/DEtRtnDMovAtD4wO.gNH0g--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTcwNTtoPTQ5OTtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/DWcEvSFeiz6XYftZvXHXgw--~B/aD0yMTA1O3c9Mjk3MzthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the-oklahoman/704b375cd31c9a6945d6b354a3454655
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/u78Fjt3RHfGEA5Qj1r6v_A--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTcwNTtoPTM4ODtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/Tk_bIbPeY61wn6bYSfmVXQ--~B/aD0xNjM2O3c9Mjk3MzthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the-oklahoman/0cb4386acf910bfec52e2965f6be2544
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/xSuvZpjX3FdIN35n7v80sQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTcwNTtoPTUzMDtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/Br0Dj7ogBGbvKBYceXWrhg--~B/aD0yMjM2O3c9Mjk3MzthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the-oklahoman/29fde150d8c5e04d0a8afa8a73f5179f
Source: Oklahoman, November 14, 2021

$100M annual impact. ... so why?? are they needing money from MAPS?

And don't give me that crap about the Thunder, the Fair has received WAY more money from MAPS and other municipal funding mechanisms than the Thunder yet contribute FAR less than the Thunder to the city's economic impact be it monetary or image/social not to mention the experience itself. ...

Not saying the fair shouldn't be supported but I am asking why they keep getting blank cheques from the city with comparably minimal return when considering the Thunder, the Zoo, or other venues that contribute far more and are held accountable.

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/DEtRtnDMovAtD4wO.gNH0g--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTcwNTtoPTQ5OTtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/DWcEvSFeiz6XYftZvXHXgw--~B/aD0yMTA1O3c9Mjk3MzthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the-oklahoman/704b375cd31c9a6945d6b354a3454655
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/u78Fjt3RHfGEA5Qj1r6v_A--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTcwNTtoPTM4ODtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/Tk_bIbPeY61wn6bYSfmVXQ--~B/aD0xNjM2O3c9Mjk3MzthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the-oklahoman/0cb4386acf910bfec52e2965f6be2544
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/xSuvZpjX3FdIN35n7v80sQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTcwNTtoPTUzMDtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/Br0Dj7ogBGbvKBYceXWrhg--~B/aD0yMjM2O3c9Mjk3MzthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the-oklahoman/29fde150d8c5e04d0a8afa8a73f5179f
Source: Oklahoman, November 14, 2021

If the horse shows are making that much money, (which I doubt) then build them new facilities or give us a new fairgrounds. We need multipurpose facilities at the Fairgrounds not more horse barns. Move the horse shows to the stock yard area were they belong. The fairboard needs to have open meetings and share financial news with the general public. Maybe its time to get rid of the fairboard all together and have the city mangers office oversee the fairgrounds. The fairgrounds are moving in the wrong direction now, we need to change direction and get it moving for people and not horses.

Clearly the current board that oversees the fairgrounds does some good by the money they bring to the city but there needs to be a rewrite of the contract or agreement between them and the city. Do that and create a special MAPS for the fairgrounds that restores the original monuments. I drove through the fairgrounds and walked around the other and it was pathetic. So boring and bland.

Obviously, there's always going to be a debate about economic impact and the direct spending amount regarding room nights associated with the horse shows.

IIRC we had this vision that the State Fair Board's wasn't open; this information is somewhere on the city's website. The Oklahoma State Fair Board doesn't hoard a treasure trove of money; however the horse shows impact the city's economic well being. The next time you're driving on the expressway north on I-44 from I-40 look over at the fairgrounds and you'll see a sea of tailors where All Sports Stadium use to be--this goes on year round. We don't need to move anything to the Stockyards. The Meridian Hotel Corridor welcomes these travelers and tourists as does other hotels throughout our city.

OKC doesn't need a $600 million (14,000 seat) Dixie's Arena to accommodate what these horse participants want from our city or the would have left for Funky-Cowtown long ago. Build on what we have here with a huge 435 acre fairgrounds. Get the new State Fair Coliseum built ASAP.

We do need to address getting back some of those ICONIC STRUCTURES (Space Tower, Monorail...) that once made the Oklahoma State Fair worth a visit. Are we willing to invest $20 million on a 500-600 foot Space Tower and who knows what on a monorail.


Texas State Fair, Dallas

http://bigtex.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/TOPOTEXASTower-300x200.png

Top o' Texas Tower: 500 feet, Construction Cost $12 million (Opened in 2011)

Now what do you want to spend on a monorail...

Just want to mention that the new arena isn't equipped to handle most of the OSSAA State Basketball tournaments. The new state fair coliseum can seat 5,000 maximum for high school basketball with extension bleachers. Look for the college campuses like OU (Lloyd Noble 11,500) or Oral Roberts (Current host for 5A, 6A, 11,300) to be more accommodating toward these events.

Don't speak for the city; however this doesn't seem to be in the city's wheel house. Does these tournaments bring in a lot of tourists revenue or are they more of a break-even host that's a drain on the local law enforcement funds and personnel.

As for the return of AA ice hockey--would you drive to the Fairgrounds to renew the Tulsa & Wichita rivalry in an arena that could seat 4,500 maximum. The City has no flavor to accommodate ice hockey on the AA level.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news; you'd have a better chance of reclaiming the 13,997 seat arena in Prairie Surf Studios downtown or building an ice rink inside the 7,000 capacity Lazy-E Arena in Guthrie.

I think the State Fair Board is neither greedy or corrupt. The people I know of who are members are leading citizens. It is, IMO, a very quiet group. I have been told that is on purpose.

I think the Gaylord legacy is still strong with the Fairgrounds. E.K and E.L. were huge boosters of the State Fair, and the family still has a large and direct role in management. They want what is best for the city. But, the Gaylords have worked hard to be low key over the last 50 years. Sometimes a lifetime devoted to civic leadership can make people want to get to the point and minimize distractions.

My business has been 2 blocks from the Fairgrounds for almost 40 years. They are busy 50 weeks a year. I have looked at, been in and around, and/or ridden all the items that were removed and are being lamented here. I can say the airplanes were crumbling; the trains were rusting away; the Goodholm mansion was naturally decaying; the Space Needle and monorail were both old, hot and dirty when operating, and I mean natural dirty that requires lots of money to restore. The Speedway just flat out didn't draw flies anymore. The noise never bother me and I was probably closer than the 7-11 was. But most weeks it drew under 200 fans. All Sport Stadium was a post war concrete block structure that was painfully limited.

But, drive by it any evening at 8PM in November 1993, and there were few places on earth that were more beautiful when the arena and all other attractions were fully lit.

So why does the board operate in secrecy then?

Now what do you want to spend on a monorail...
My monorail system would be a spine for tourist. Airport-State Fair-Union Station-Bricktown-State Capitol-Adventure District. Transfers to the citywide public transit system would be made at a stop on a future extension of the streetcar to capitol hill via Robinson.

This is all completed by heavy rail commuter line via spoke and hub system for North and south suburbs, west NW and SW served by real BRT, and the city has a orbital light rail line that forms a giant circle connecting Edmond-NW OKC-YUKON-Mustang-Moore-MWC-Spencer-Jones. MWC also gets rapid streetcar. Inner city suburbs and urban OKC gets served by grade separated light rail via subterranean tunnels or viaduct. Boom there’s your transit system.

Reno gets a bus only lane and serves as a central connector.

Could maybe accomplish all of that for about 20-30 billion. That puts OKC in actual big league status.

So why does the board operate in secrecy then?

Probably the only way you can get anything done with less scrutiny. Remember how Ron Norick and city leaders crafted MAPS...

... I can say the airplanes were crumbling; the trains were rusting away; the Goodholm mansion was naturally decaying; the Space Needle and monorail were both old, hot and dirty when operating, and I mean natural dirty that requires lots of money to restore. ...

But did they have to be that way? Haven't other cities have maintained their attractions/rides and still have them operating? Aren't they gone from here because of demolition by intentional deferred maintenance ("they" just didn't want to spend the money on them)?

I am talking about Lindsey. I've already stopped by and met Dave, I believe.

I have no illusions about getting a big act like F1 to OKC. There is no way we can compete with COTA, but it'd be nice to have a place to see grassroot racing other than dirt track or drag racing. Even though, I am grateful that we do have those options. But AFAIK there aren't even any PCA events in OK. That really surprised me. The fairgrounds seems like the most likely public facility that could hold something like that. I just don't know how popular it would be with the neighbors. Fingers crossed though.

PCA does some stuff at the Edmond Fire Dept. SCCA hosts events at Remington and occasionally Hallett. I know BMWCC was active prior to the Sheriff track crap. I really wish we could get access to that again.

PCA does some stuff at the Edmond Fire Dept. SCCA hosts events at Remington and occasionally Hallett. I know BMWCC was active prior to the Sheriff track crap. I really wish we could get access to that again.

Thanks for the information! I previously looked and couldn't find any PCA stuff until finding the Warbonnet Region just now. I have to get this POS running, then I'm all over it.

Probably the only way you can get anything done with less scrutiny. Remember how Ron Norick and city leaders crafted MAPS...

"Probably the only way you can get anything done with less scrutiny". And by extension no accountability to the taxpayers and residents.

But did they have to be that way? Haven't other cities have maintained their attractions/rides and still have them operating? Aren't they gone from here because of demolition by intentional deferred maintenance ("they" just didn't want to spend the money on them)?
Yeah I just can’t stand that mentality for someone says oh this or that was rundown dilapidated requiring a lot of money to restore. Well duh that’s the idea. Great cities like Los Angeles or New York City don’t become that way because they looked at certain projects or initiatives and said Jesus cost too much can’t do it

Yeah I just can’t stand that mentality for someone says oh this or that was rundown dilapidated requiring a lot of money to restore. Well duh that’s the idea. Great cities like Los Angeles or New York City don’t become that way because they looked at certain projects or initiatives and said Jesus cost too much can’t do it

What I took from the Sunday Oklahoman story of 11-7-2021 was that the Fairgrounds through the 1980s had become the "donating ground" for mechanical marvels and other items from Oklahoma that were no longer used. These items had always come without any maintenance funding attached. By the new century the State Fair had become a money losing 2 week fair and the complex was facing some hard financial decisions regarding the future. By then the rides we miss so much now were 35 to 45 years of age, and fitting in the "old enough to be old, not old enough to be retro or nostalgic" category. Happens all the time and happens today with items from the 1970s-80s.

Nowadays, we have a better system for these type items, and the Oklahoma Historical Society would be the go to. Since that is more of their business, they have a better ability to lay out future care into the decision to accept donations.

$100M annual impact. ... so why?? are they needing money from MAPS?

Economic impact also includes revenue generated by tourist spending in the city while they are here. Most people attending horse events are from out of state and many are international. So, just about every attendee is spending money at other place likes hotels, restaurants, etc. during those events. That compounds the economic impact more significantly than the mostly local or regional attractions. So, the economic impact numbers don't tell us how much goes directly into the stair fair coffers. That would be very good information to have, though.



And don't give me that crap about the Thunder, the Fair has received WAY more money from MAPS and other municipal funding mechanisms than the Thunder yet contribute FAR less than the Thunder to the city's economic impact be it monetary or image/social not to mention the experience itself. ...

I haven't seen a direct comparison on MAPS money spent that serves the Thunder vs the horse shows, but the overall economic impact from the horse industry is consistently estimated as more than the economic impact from the Thunder. Compared to the $100MM annual estimated economic impact of the horse shows, the Thunder estimated their number to be about $53MM annually:

https://www.oklahoman.com/article/5604451/how-10-years-of-thunder-basketball-has-helped-shape-oklahoma-city



According to data provided to the Thunder by the city, each home game translates to $1.5 million in economic impact for OKC.


Sure, those studies can be dubious, but they basically use the same dubious methods.

One thing to consider when comparing the two, is that the horse shows bring in a lot more out of market spending, so it's a true market influx. A lot of Thunder money is local people deciding to take their family to a game instead of, say, a movie. I'm not minimizing the impact the Thunder has on the city's image or economy, but in terms of real economic return on investment, the horse industry should not be dismissed at all.


Not saying the fair shouldn't be supported but I am asking why they keep getting blank cheques from the city with comparably minimal return when considering the Thunder, the Zoo, or other venues that contribute far more and are held accountable.

Those entities do not contribute far more to the economy, but no doubt they shouldn't get blank cheques and should be way more transparent with more community input and accountability.

I can understand favoring spending in other areas due to interest. I understand how many, especially locally, would rather ride a monorail once a year than go to even one of the many horse shows and equine events every year. I just don't understand pitting them against each other, especially in terms of economic impact. It seems like many simply don't know about the national and international money that is associated with the horse industry. I'd like to see both the fair and the horse industry be maintained, improved and successful, even though I personally don't have much interest in either.

Ultimately, I think people can support having higher concept rides and attractions at the yearly fair and do so without specious economic comparisons or representing an industry that has a very real economic contribution to the city as insignificant.

FYI, these are the reported salaries for Oklahoma State Fair Inc.:

Timothy J O'Toole PRESIDENT/CEO 35 $349,967
Gina Burchfiel VP FAIR 35 $195,123
Bill Allen VP FAIR PARK 35 $157,471
Kevin Rogers VP FINANCE 35 $115,217
Scott Munz VP PR 35 $113,905
James Johnson VP IMPACT CATERING 20 $56,111
Shannon Crossley CORP SECRETARY 40 $46,978

What I took from the Sunday Oklahoman story of 11-7-2021 was that the Fairgrounds through the 1980s had become the "donating ground" for mechanical marvels and other items from Oklahoma that were no longer used. These items had always come without any maintenance funding attached. By the new century the State Fair had become a money losing 2 week fair and the complex was facing some hard financial decisions regarding the future. By then the rides we miss so much now were 35 to 45 years of age, and fitting in the "old enough to be old, not old enough to be retro or nostalgic" category. Happens all the time and happens today with items from the 1970s-80s.

Nowadays, we have a better system for these type items, and the Oklahoma Historical Society would be the go to. Since that is more of their business, they have a better ability to lay out future care into the decision to accept donations.
Surely a way to find money could be had. Work with state legislators and since the horse shows are bringing in so much revenue why not issue bonds backed by that? Why I said the city should rethink its contract with the operators and create a new city office that oversees the fairgrounds. Find a way to retire some old TIF districts and create a new one here. Or bring it to a vote of the people and have a MAPS for the Fair extension like some of the old maps extensions in the past.

As has been mentioned before. I wish there had been something like a "Maps For The Fairgrounds". Then if it passed that would be fantastic. But if it failed then it would be on the citizens of OKC that the Fairgrounds is a bland shell of what could be.

FYI, these are the reported salaries for Oklahoma State Fair Inc.:

Timothy J O'Toole PRESIDENT/CEO 35 $349,967
Gina Burchfiel VP FAIR 35 $195,123
Bill Allen VP FAIR PARK 35 $157,471
Kevin Rogers VP FINANCE 35 $115,217
Scott Munz VP PR 35 $113,905
James Johnson VP IMPACT CATERING 20 $56,111
Shannon Crossley CORP SECRETARY 40 $46,978

wow, had no idea. these are their full time positions?

As has been mentioned before. I wish there had been something like a "Maps For The Fairgrounds". Then if it passed that would be fantastic. But if it failed then it would be on the citizens of OKC that the Fairgrounds is a bland shell of what could be.

Would that be in addition to the dedicated share of the taxes they already get or instead of?

FYI, these are the reported salaries for Oklahoma State Fair Inc.:

Timothy J O'Toole PRESIDENT/CEO 35 $349,967
Gina Burchfiel VP FAIR 35 $195,123
Bill Allen VP FAIR PARK 35 $157,471
Kevin Rogers VP FINANCE 35 $115,217
Scott Munz VP PR 35 $113,905
James Johnson VP IMPACT CATERING 20 $56,111
Shannon Crossley CORP SECRETARY 40 $46,978

as a comparision these are the tulsa fair grounds salarys .. (from 2015)

https://tulsaworld.com/expo-square-salaries/pdf_215b27ef-586b-55bf-ac98-407c60d9b4fa.html

Would that be in addition to the dedicated share of the taxes they already get or instead of?

I'm not thinking so much about the money as a gauge of how important the Fairgrounds is to the general public. If OKC had put restoration/upgrading of the 3 icons most talked about here how would that vote have ended up. Not funding really, just interest in seeing it done. I don't know.

As has been mentioned before. I wish there had been something like a "Maps For The Fairgrounds". Then if it passed that would be fantastic. But if it failed then it would be on the citizens of OKC that the Fairgrounds is a bland shell of what could be.
There still can be. Lets MAPS 4 run its course, when the current tax expires propose an extension. There are other proposals coming soon like the RTA tax. Let some of current taxes like Better Streets expire so voters don't get fatigue from tons of taxes.

There still can be. Lets MAPS 4 run its course, when the current tax expires propose an extension. There are other proposals coming soon like the RTA tax. Let some of current taxes like Better Streets expire so voters don't get fatigue from tons of taxes.
I was thinking more in terms of having saved the icons just the way they were but with updates. Like A/C. So it would have had to been done while they still existed.

I was thinking more in terms of having saved the icons just the way they were but much improved. So it would have had to been done while they still existed.
Too late for that. Recreate the destroyed icons. Probably best to bring it to a vote of the people as much as I'd like to see it the city needs to decide.

$100M annual impact. ... so why?? are they needing money from MAPS?
...
BECAUSE the fairgrounds generates $100M annually and the City wisely wants to protect and grow said impact..?

"Economic impact" doesn't mean the money that is spent at the fairgrounds or that directly benefits the fairgrounds (although a small portion of it does, of course). It means the money that is spent city-wide as a result of events held there. In a nutshell, horse shows (and other events) help us pay for things like police, fire, water, trash, streets, etc.. Reinvesting in the fairgrounds is similar to a business owner reinvesting in their place of business. In this case, the business is horse shows and other events. And every tax payer in OKC is in that business, and benefits from it. Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

1. I think we need to call it what it is, no longer a State Fair Park, but Livestock and Events Center.
2. The entire budget should be public if they are a part of MAPS/City things.
3. Outlying property could easily hold 2-3 hotels with 120-150 rooms each. Especially along Reno and possibly along May.
4. Would love to see light rail along Reno to Meridian and down to the WRWA. Stops to include the Farmer's Market, fairgrounds, S. of I-40 and airport.
5. Hoping they clean up the fairgrounds and add some quality landscaping! Would be good if there was a large parking garage between the pavilion and the Bennett Event Center or over off the east side. Add more green space and make it more pedestrian friendly. The mismatched parking lots and roads are in good shape, but a mess to navigate.

No problem calling it State Fair Park. State & county fairs throughout this country have land set aside for traditional fairs.

Invest in a new Space Tower and monorail.

Envision an iconic Skydance Tower, (coordinated lighting with Skydance Bridge) towering 800 feet with an elevated control building from which the tower and monorail are operated and protected from floods and the elements. Keep the monorail within State Fair Park (Not linked to Public Transit).

Let the State Fair Board operate a major Stock Show with the new State Fair Coliseum and Bennett Events Center.

I took this today (Saturday 3/11). Just thousands of cars.

I know there are a lot of complaints about the way fair park has been developed, but holy cow what an economic engine:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds031123a.jpg

We spent a lot of time a the fairgrounds over the past couple weeks -- namely Norrick Arena -- watching our high school basketball team and I just cannot believe the state of disrepair the arena is. It really is a disgrace and no wonder the IFR and PBR moved out of it and OKC. This new arena they're building next door is going to be great, but I just hope the city doesn't allow it to fall in such disrepair as they have the Norrick arena. I doubt we'll ever be able to compete with Las Vegas to bring back the PBR championship, but maybe we can get back in on the circuit itself. I hope it's nice enough that at least the IFR will come back here from the Lazy E.

Why roll money to repair a facility that is going to be replaced? The same thing happened in Denver to the Coliseum when they knew there was going to be a major renovation to the entire area.

We spent a lot of time a the fairgrounds over the past couple weeks -- namely Norrick Arena -- watching our high school basketball team and I just cannot believe the state of disrepair the arena is. It really is a disgrace and no wonder the IFR and PBR moved out of it and OKC. This new arena they're building next door is going to be great, but I just hope the city doesn't allow it to fall in such disrepair as they have the Norrick arena. I doubt we'll ever be able to compete with Las Vegas to bring back the PBR championship, but maybe we can get back in on the circuit itself. I hope it's nice enough that at least the IFR will come back here from the Lazy E.

The new coliseum will be a draw; there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to maintain the new coliseum since they will have a steady stream of income from the hotel room tax IIFC.

Pete showed us a pic of the cars in his #945 post on this thread. The coliseum will allow the City to renew contracts on a longer term with replacement to the Jim Norick Arena.

Seems like we are getting into 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't" territory. I think the State Fairgrounds management know what they are doing, and are good stewards of taxpayer money.

Honestly, I thought PBR had operated in either the Myriad or Paycom arenas for several years. No idea about the IFR.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgronds071324a.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgronds071324b.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgronds071324c.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgronds071324d.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgronds071324e.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgronds071324f.jpg

Wow looking great! Great drone shots Pete!

I know this is a little of the beat and for that I apologize, but now that we have new and modern facilities, can you please properly maintain the grounds. (trimming, mowing, planting trees, etc;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypjfe0TZ8sE

It's getting there. I thought the first few times I saw the west outside graphics that they were horrid. They're actually kind of growing on me now.

10 more months would mean completion in late spring 2025 or early summer.

Photo from the Journal Record:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds080124a.jpg

They aren't messing around! Great pic!

https://www.oklahoman.com/gcdn/presto/2022/07/26/NOKL/13aaf8f9-435f-495b-8766-a79967be6aac-b.jpg?crop=1937,1090,x31,y0&width=660&height=372&format=pjpg&auto=webp

The coliseum will seat about 4,700 in its 21-inch padded seats for horse shows. Retractable seating will allow up to 7,500 seats in different layouts for events like bull riding, concerts and basketball games.

https://www.oklahoman.com/gcdn/authoring/2019/03/04/NOKL/ghnewsok-OK-5636000-723ab5d6.jpeg?crop=646,364,x2,y0&width=646&height=364&format=pjpg&auto=webp

The shape remains the same; just anxious to see the finished product.

This arena seats roughly 5,000; cozy enough for the horse shows that attract an average of around 3,500 which you could lose in 14,000 seat Dixie's style arena.

Couldn't help but notice the concrete floor installed; something that had to be done with the old State Fair Arena when it was built to support ice hockey.

I'm going to the State Fair to see Morris Day and The Time Friday night. Haven't been in probably 10 years. Where is the best place to park. $10 parking pass worth it or just park for free?

I'm going to the State Fair to see Morris Day and The Time Friday night. Haven't been in probably 10 years. Where is the best place to park. $10 parking pass worth it or just park for free?

There's plenty of free parking places on the fairgrounds. Last time I went to the fair was with friends to see the Ohio Players in concert.

When I got ready to leave, I couldn't remember where I parked. Finally a guy came by on a golf cart and asked if I needed help. Told him my recollection of where I parked was on a grassy hill and I could see the OSU-OKC parking garage. He knew the area and took me right to my vehicle.

.