This was approved by city council yesterday.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds020319.jpg

I sense that they want to get out in front of any soccer-stadium-in-maps push. Its does seem like the fair arena gets much more use and is more of a necessity than a soccer field at this point though.

I would care more about fairgrounds projects like this if it were clear and obvious that the organization itself cared more about the grounds at large and in general, and not just when they needed to go to the citizens for taxpayer money for big time projects. I get why it's important for our fairgrounds to stay competitive, but they need to understand that outside of these big projects, THEY are not doing enough to stay competitive, and it shows.

The timing of this ask is not good considering the PR nightmare they have endured around the space needle and all the previous demolitions.

exactly. show us you give a darned about the master planning of the grounds and probably there is no issue here.

Just don't believe the State Fair Board has all this hidden money that many of us would like to think because they aren't transparent. Obviously, we know the impact of the horse industry:


State Fair Park is a significant driver of tourism dollars and the arena is central to continuing success of the shows that lend Oklahoma City the nickname "Horse Show Capital of the World."

State Fair Park accounted for an annual average of $326.8 million in direct spending from 2016 to 2018, according to an economic impact report, O'Toole said.

That amounts to about 60 percent of the overall impact attributable to State Fair Park, the Cox Convention Center, Chesapeake Energy Arena and Bricktown ballpark, he said.

The latest cost estimate for the new coliseum is $96.6 million, O'Toole said.

It will compete for MAPS 4 dollars with a broad variety of proposals.

OKC's State Fair Arena has had repairs and renovations that far exceed its original 1960s $2 million construction cost just to keep the place in operational condition despite the conditions of the roof.

There's the potential loss of many of these horse related events and trade shows if we don't build an arena. You could look at the loss of economic impact money (generated from tourists) that will directly affect local hotels, restaurants and retail establishments.

'Economic Impact' figures are always dubious IMO.

You only see them when someone is wanting more money or lobbying in some way.


It also begs the question: If these fairgrounds projects generate so much revenue, why can't they pay for these buildings themselves instead of constantly going to taxpayers with their hand out?

Remember, MAPS 3 just spent a ton on the new Expo Building. Where is all that new revenue going? How about all the new revenue from the MAPS 1 horse barns and arena imrovements? Have also bought them acres of new parking.

Just don't believe the State Fair Board has all this hidden money that many of us would like to think because they aren't transparent. Obviously, we know the impact of the horse industry:



OKC's State Fair Arena has had repairs and renovations that far exceed its original 1960s $2 million construction cost just to keep the place in operational condition despite the conditions of the roof.

There's the potential loss of many of these horse related events and trade shows if we don't build an arena. You could look at the loss of economic impact money (generated from tourists) that will directly affect local hotels, restaurants and retail establishments.

I guess the city better make the state fair board be more transparent if they want me to vote another MAPS program then. Its a reasonable demand to make. Money may not be hidden, but they could be negligent with it.

Continue to believe that economic impact figures are dubious; we'll see this in play once our convention center is completed; then many of you will question why we didn't invest in a recommended study that suggested a 735 room convention center hotel comparable to the ones in Fort Worth & Dallas.


https://www.nuhomesource.com/images/omni_400.jpg https://img.grouponcdn.com/getaways/2k5yHNisBXztqj8bZHo4hb/4488581_30_z-887x1000/v1/t550x332.jpg
Fort Worth downtown Omni 614 rooms/89 luxury apartments. Dallas downtown Omni 1,001 luxurious guest rooms and suites

If OKC wants to compete with the larger cities, get off the CHEAP TRAIN, continue to build name recognition/branding; you have to invest to compete with the best.

You have been given an opportunity to get involved in the process; if you kill MAPS momentum now, our city will fall so far behind Dallas, Fort Worth & Kansas City--you will lose what little competitive edge you've gained since the infusion of MAPS.

The state fairgrounds is the biggest exploiter of the "cheap train". Just look at the place. There's no reason, with all the money that has gone into it over all the MAPS programs, that it couldn't be nearer to the neighborhood of "world class", but it's just parking lots and a few buildings and the stables. There's very little about the place to have pride in anymore. If you built stables at Belle Isle you'd have almost the same thing. And the organization has it 100% in its power to change this perception. It's one of the few orgs left in the city that doesn't seem to care about its image.

Agree 100% shawnw, there should be improvements/projects somewhere in the neighborhood of 'world-class' or slightly less. That's the issue that many of us have on this board about the quality of MAPS projects as well as developments where the City offers incentives.

OKC can't compete with the DFW Metroplex; however it won't take a Dixies' style $600 million arena to retain many of the horse related events currently using the 55 year old antiquated patch quilt State Fair Arena.

It's obvious we need a new arena capable of hosting the horse related events we have under contract. Why not budget $100 million (Ideas4MAPS) toward a State Fair Arena replacement, the State Fair Board has some money in its coffers for upkeep-repairs. SMG will eventually be contracted to manage the facility along with the other city-owed facilities under its umbrella.

Just not so dead set on sinking the MAPS momentum over what the State Fair Board Trust may or may not have. Why hasn't this been an issue with the previously funded MAPS initiatives that went to upgrade our State Fair Park?

Thunder are the anchor tenant for The Peake; ice hockey could return to State Fair Park--let's invest and build up some other areas of our city.

I've always been VERY pro MAPS. I'm simply making the point that if the fair board wants my money they should at least act like it by taking better care of what they already have. A good faith effort would go a long way to convince me that throwing more money at the problem would actually make a difference. And this HAS been an issue for past MAPS. The only other thing I had an issue with over the convention center was the fair event center. Again, previous MAPS money for the fairgrounds has been reflected going forward how? In other parts of the city, MAPS funding on one project has spurred other kinds of growth. I realize private entities can't get in there and do that with the fair grounds, but the fair board hasn't even tried to spring forward on the momentum and the good faith of taxpayer dollars to further beautify the grounds, etc. We've been throwing money at the fairgrounds for decades. Decades. Peripheral improvements should have brought things forward by now, but there's not been a peep to that effect.

I predict the failure of MAPS 4 if any Fairgrounds Arena, building. or anything else is one of the projects. ...

The city better think long and hard about it because unlike the fairgrounds - all other MAPS venues (streetcar, sidewalks, lighting, beautification, and now even the CC) all of them have the WILL of the public. So even if MAPS fails these projects WILL continue/expand since its what the public wants.

The continued neglect and then destruction of the fairgrounds without transparency of money already gifted during ALL of the past MAPS to the Fair has cast them out of favor - particularly when advocates preach about the economic impact of the fairground yet they are always FIRST for the handout and all of sudden have no money to show.

... Think long and hard about including more Pork-Fairgrounds in MAPS - OKC.

The fair arena and soccer stadium seem to be relatively unpopular.

What does that leave? Expansion of the streetcar? The Innovation Link? Facilities and services for the homeless and mentally ill?


There might not be enough sex appeal in MAPS 4 to get passed.

* New, working, theft proof LED street lights through out the city sounds sexy to me! I know, that is another thread and topic altogether

* New, working, theft proof LED street lights through out the city sounds sexy to me! I know, that is another thread and topic altogether

Actually, it couldn't be more on topic. This would benefit the city as a whole much more than dumping more money into a sinkhole for the benefit of a very few.

As for expansion of the streetcar, that's going to have to happen. Someone thought it was funny to string wire and put in special rails instead of using something more mobile, so if we're going to do something obvious, like include the Omni/Convention Center, it's not just a matter of adding a route, one has to be BUILT.

* New, working, theft proof LED street lights through out the city sounds sexy to me! I know, that is another thread and topic altogether

+1 +1 +1 about the lights.

The lights should be taken care of through the general fund or the GOLT bonds, including the massive new streets initiative.

We don't need another tax for something the city needs to be doing anyway (which actually pertains to the roads as well).

Question for the board as I am genuinely curious: if MAPS4 including a new arena at the fairground (say, $50MM), but also $20MM in upgrades to the grounds that didn't include the facilities, rebuilding the arch, other iconic structures, would you vote for it then or would that not be enough? Again, I don't have a dog in the fight, just wanted to know the thoughts of the board.

That and some sort of public commitment to broadly improve the grounds going forward would do a lot for me. We need to be approaching it holistically and not just as isolated big projects IMO.

That and some sort of public commitment to broadly improve the grounds going forward would do a lot for me. We need to be approaching it holistically and not just as isolated big projects IMO.

What do you mean by "broadly improve the grounds"? Pardon my ignorance, I haven't been to the farigrounds in years, except for the arena to take my daughter to Disney on Ice. Are the overall paths and maintenance really bad?

It's just buildings and parking lots at the moment. Not much different in appearance from Belle Isle shopping center (obviously an extreme example to make a point). If there's a master plan it doesn't seem like it. So, I'd say, develop a master plan, include some obvious things like trees, landscaping, etc, and work towards that master plan with future funds, both year-to-year budget and big project dollars from MAPS and other initiatives. If we could all feel like they were working toward some kind of grand design for the future, we'd be more emotionally and logically invested (similar to how we feel invested with downtown). Currently it feels like they do nothing until they get a MAPS project, they build that project in isolation, and then sit and wait until they get more someday. I get that that is a radically unfair generalization, but just making a point about the perception.

It's just buildings and parking lots at the moment. Not much different in appearance from Belle Isle shopping center (obviously an extreme example to make a point). If there's a master plan it doesn't seem like it. So, I'd say, develop a master plan, include some obvious things like trees, landscaping, etc, and work towards that master plan with future funds, both year-to-year budget and big project dollars from MAPS and other initiatives. If we could all feel like they were working toward some kind of grand design for the future, we'd be more emotionally and logically invested (similar to how we feel invested with downtown). Currently it feels like they do nothing until they get a MAPS project, they build that project in isolation, and then sit and wait until they get more someday. I get that that is a radically unfair generalization, but just making a point about the perception.

That’s been my problem with the State Fair Grounds. It just seems like the keep tearing down cool historic features and throwing up new buildings and parking lots without any real development plan.

Question for the board as I am genuinely curious: if MAPS4 including a new arena at the fairground (say, $50MM), but also $20MM in upgrades to the grounds that didn't include the facilities, rebuilding the arch, other iconic structures, would you vote for it then or would that not be enough? Again, I don't have a dog in the fight, just wanted to know the thoughts of the board.

I'm not going to promise my vote one way or the other. It depends on the total package proposed for MAPS 4. I don't like how the fairgrounds operates, it seems the people in charge are quite secretive with how they do things, and that makes me suspicious. But even if they had a $100M proposal for "give the fairgrounds a bunch of money and nobody ask what they do with it", it's possible that the other MAPS projects could make up for it. I might still vote yes. Nothing has been proposed yet, but I'm 100% certain that I'll think some of the projects are stupid and a waste of money.

I was against the convention center when MAPS 3 passed, and I stayed against it until I went to a convention at the Cox Center. Then I was like "oh crap, we definitely need a new convention center". So I'm open to changing my mind on things. With MAPS 4, it's all going to depend on what gets proposed. I have a certain level of tolerance for "this is a dumb project" in my MAPS support. As long as the total doesn't exceed that level, and we've got an offsetting amount of "this is a great project", I'll still vote for it.

The problem with the State Fair is that I basically never go there apart from visiting the Fair once every two or three years. And when I go, every time I see fewer of the things I remember. Oh, the arch thing fell down. Now the space needle is gone. Where did the old mansion go? The monorail hasn't worked since I was a kid. All the cool, quirky things that I liked are gone. In their place are these ugly, boring, giant livestock barns.

Now, maybe those ugly boring livestock barns bring in huge amounts of money. They look ugly, but maybe they're super functional and efficient, and maybe the people who bring horses here for the shows are really happy with them. I have no idea, I'm not one of those people. I have no way to judge that. And maybe the old things I loved about the State Fair bring in zero dollars. For all I know, the upkeep costs for the cool stuff I liked were so high that the State Fair was losing money every year. Again, I really can't say.

My guess is that the people in charge of the fairgrounds think that the State Fair encourages every kind of bad stereotype about Oklahoma. They think trailer trash redneck, and they don't want to be associated with that at all. So they've just quietly killed things off through neglect. They think it's Cletus the slack-jawed yokel, and they don't want Cletus around. That's my guess, but they're so secretive about everything they do that there's no way to confirm or deny.

Where are our design gurus out there.

Build & kill two birds with one stone--Multipurpose indoor soccer stadium arena on city owned land or State Fair Park:

Couldn't we combine a multipurpose soccer-arena indoor stadium using a 1,000 seat partition section of seats for a smaller arena venue (take up half the field) that could be rolled back when the larger soccer-American football stadium events are in use.

Leave the suites unfinished; allow those who want to purchase suites to custom build the suites (first rights to build for Funk-MacLaughlin) and lease or own them to interested party/parties or allow them to own outright if they build. Say $1 million per suite--offset some cost of building the stadium-arena.

The indoor soccer stadium-arena probably could be built on a budget of $130 million with a maximum seating capacity of 25,000 for traditionally outdoor sports and downsized with the partition section seats using half the soccer field to 13,500 for arena sports like rodeo, ice hockey & basketball. The suites could further offset the cost of $130 million--allow space for 75 suites.

Does that make sense?

Where are our design gurus out there.

Build & kill two birds with one stone--Multipurpose indoor soccer stadium arena on city owned land or State Fair Park:

Couldn't we combine a multipurpose soccer-arena indoor stadium using a 1,000 seat partition section of seats for a smaller arena venue (take up half the field) that could be rolled back when the larger soccer-American football stadium events are in use.

Leave the suites unfinished; allow those who want to purchase suites to custom build the suites (first rights to build for Funk-MacLaughlin) and lease or own them to interested party/parties or allow them to own outright if they build. Say $1 million per suite--offset some cost of building the stadium-arena.

The indoor soccer stadium-arena probably could be built on a budget of $130 million with a maximum seating capacity of 25,000 for traditionally outdoor sports and downsized to with the partition section seats using half the soccer field to 13,500 for arena sports like rodeo, ice hockey & basketball. The suites could further offset the cost of $130 million--allow space for 75 suites.

Does that make sense?

Not saying I like or want an indoor soccer arena, but the field does need to be natural grass in order to host U.S. Open Cup games. Plus turf looks atrocious on televised games.

Not saying I like or want an indoor soccer arena, but the field does need to be natural grass in order to host U.S. Open Cup games. Plus turf looks atrocious on televised games.

Good question:

Indoor-stadium-arena with a retractable roof:

You could keep it natural grass. For ice hockey you could place a portable ice rink over the grass--similar to the Ice Capades for the State Fair Arena. Rodeo/PBR, you bring in dirt placed over plastic cover. This multipurpose stadium-arena could potentially be used 75-100 days a year for events.

Why not a stock & trade show like they do in Houston and San Antonio. You wouldn't have to interfere with The Peake Arena with a multipurpose venue at State Fair Park. We could gradually rebuild the Fairgrounds; imagine the developments along N.W. 10th from Penn to Meridian that could benefit from State Fair Park's indoor-stadium-arena.

The lights should be taken care of through the general fund or the GOLT bonds, including the massive new streets initiative.

We don't need another tax for something the city needs to be doing anyway (which actually pertains to the roads as well).

Darn it, I had typed up a big rant about MAPS not devolving to being for stuff the city should be taking care of anyway and deleted it. Didn't want to get all political, but yeah. If MAPS is going to just be sidewalks and streetlights, it's had a great run but it might be done.

I think there is a master plan for the Fairgrounds. I just don't think management is doing a good job of sharing it, and I don't know why. I'm guessing the Gaylord family influence over the State Fair Board, and their very private nature of doing business, help create the impression they have something to hide.

I believe State Fair Park is an underutilized piece of real estate.

agreement all around

There needs to be far more public accountability for the Fairgrounds if they want any more MAPS money. Any public accountability at all would be a nice start.

Unless we spend a huge amount of money, a natural turf stadium won’t ever get build at the fair grounds because it’s not going to work well with the livestock needs of the fair.

I’m also not against spending money on the fair. But what I do have an issue with is giving money to what basically amounts to be a private enterprise that already receives lots of money, has a history of not maintaining what is already there, and has no transparency regarding how they manage their existing funding while asking for more.

Think about it:

In all fairness, I believe we've created an artificial dichotomy (include myself) about the State Fair Board Trust. The more we research about state & county fairs we've learned that many are not as profitable as one might think. They barely possess funds for operational expenses: daily 24 hour security, utilities, building & ground maintenance. They don't have money for major infrastructure or capital improvement projects.

A soccer/football sized feild is horrible for basketball/ hockey. The size disparity is too big. I’ve been to both basketball and hockey set up in football stadiums. It just didn’t work.

Think about it:

In all fairness, I believe we've created an artificial dichotomy (include myself) about the State Fair Board Trust. The more we research about state & county fairs we've learned that many are not as profitable as one might think. They barely possess funds for operational expenses: daily 24 hour security, utilities, building & ground maintenance. They don't have money for major infrastructure or capital improvement projects.

Nobody is saying they are a rich board doing whatever with the money.

We are saying that we have no idea what their finances are.

Fairgrounds is all about horse shows. No need to build palaces for them. The way they run that place and make decisions it's obvious they don't want the general publics opinion on what to do so why would the general pub be so generous to them?

Fairgrounds is all about horse shows. No need to build palaces for them. The way they run that place and make decisions it's obvious they don't want the general publics opinion on what to do so why would the general pub be so generous to them?

I guess thats why the National Finals Rodeo left for Vegas or Ft. Worth has built a Taj Mahal of an arena for horse and Livestock shows. Everyone likes a nicer facility and bigger money. OKC needs a new arena orvwill start losing those shows quickly to Ft. Worth.

A soccer/football sized feild is horrible for basketball/ hockey. The size disparity is too big. I’ve been to both basketball and hockey set up in football stadiums. It just didn’t work.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/2009-0319-NCAAs-002-MetrodomeBBall.JPG/750px-2009-0319-NCAAs-002-MetrodomeBBall.JPG
Older pic of the Metrodome (Minneapolis): Imagine a smaller soccer stadium where you use one end to configure the basketball/ice hockey configuration.

Not sure you extrapolated my post #806; we're not talking about a basketball or ice hockey game played on a soccer/American football field like say the Houston NFL NRG Stadium or the Astrodome.

Again, I mentioned using only half the field & half the seating of the full stadium with temporary portable seats moved in or built to custom fit the open end where the basketball/ice hockey configuration using half the stadium.

Laramie, i think you just made the point for Bill with that picture. The Metrodome is a good example of how that setup sucks...and it sucks hard.

Laramie, i think you just made the point for Bill with that picture. The Metrodome is a good example of how that setup sucks...and it sucks hard.

Also ask anyone who has played or been to a Syracuse BBall game, they are a similar setup and it sucks.

Also we had a pressure dome roof/building already on the state fairgrounds and we let it go to pot.

Laramie, i think you just made the point for Bill with that picture. The Metrodome is a good example of how that setup sucks...and it sucks hard.

I've never actually experienced a setup like this in person... can you explain why it sucks? On paper, it seems like a reconfigurable arena like this would make a lot of sense due to it's flexibility.

I've never actually experienced a setup like this in person... can you explain why it sucks? On paper, it seems like a reconfigurable arena like this would make a lot of sense due to it's flexibility.

i'm curious as to the issues others have as well... my experience with events in arenas set up like this is just terrible acoustics and echos... but other than that, it had little affect on the events themselves.

Also we had a pressure dome roof/building already on the state fairgrounds and we let it go to pot.

Shawnw, not a dome, a retractable roof. My example of the Metrodome was setup configuration in a smaller stadium.

All of you guys out there who want to look for a grain of salt to vote against MAPS 4; again, have you contributed any ideas to the Mayor's office.

You have a voice with Ideas 4 MAPS; If we eventually decide to make the penny sales tax extension a permanent part of the city's general fund; YOU WON'T HAVE A VOICE.

Ideas 4 MAPS: https://www.okc.gov/government/maps-4

I've never actually experienced a setup like this in person... can you explain why it sucks? On paper, it seems like a reconfigurable arena like this would make a lot of sense due to it's flexibility.
It kills the atmosphere of a game completely. sounds sucks, the overall feeling sucks. 1/2 of attendance is about the experience and just looking at that pic tells me how terrible of an experience that would be.

In all fairness, we have one year to generate Ideas 4 MAPS: https://www.okc.gov/government/maps-4. Let's see what ideas submitted by the voters will be on the ballot initiative.

The MAPS 4 initiative is expected to cover 7 years (2020-2026); potentially $1 billion in projects. If haven't submitted your ideas please visit the above link.

i'm curious as to the issues others have as well... my experience with events in arenas set up like this is just terrible acoustics and echos... but other than that, it had little affect on the events themselves.

It seems like any venue created for multipurpose only seems to fail at being great for ANY event. That’s why they generally aren’t being built anymore.

I think those retractable roof stadiums are coming in at around $1 billion lately.

I think those retractable roof stadiums are coming in at around $1 billion lately.

depends upon the rest of the stadium... a report just a few years ago
https://www.livescience.com/42996-open-stadium-super-bowl-2014.html

said that the cost to add one to a stadium during construction adds about $100-$150 million

At least for basketball, it was the dynamics of shooting at a basket with a massive amount of light and space behind the basket. Where as most college and NBA arenas have dark space with fans very close in proximity to the basket makes it feel more tight.

Or sometimes, for college at least, the basket is on the wall.

I’ve seen it done two ways. One is the build the court/rink next to one side of the field. Not too bad for the viewers in the permanent seats but a long way from amenities for the people in the temporary seats. The other way set the court/rink in the center of the field with temporary bleachers all the way around. Puts everyone in cheap bleachers and pretty far from amenities.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds02120a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds02120b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fairgrounds02120c.jpg

I see some green spots that haven't been turned into barns or parking lots.

^

Also shows how all those massive parking lots have zero trees or any sort of landscaping.

^

Also shows how all those massive parking lots have zero trees or any sort of landscaping.
Shameful.

The entire grounds are embarrassing. I drive through an open gate the other day and drove around and couldn’t believe it.

How does Tulsa's fairgrounds compare to OKC's Premier Horsebarn Exhibition Grounds (oops, sorry, Fairgrounds)?

The OKC Equestrian Park is nice (if you value such things), but there’s really no comparison between the two in the quality of upkeep IMO.

The OKC Equestrian Park is nice (if you value such things), but there’s really no comparison between the two in the quality of upkeep IMO.

So Tulsa's is more in line with what OKC's used to be about 20 years ago, still a functioning, halfway-decent actual fairgrounds?