There is now a petition to save the Space Needle. There has been a huge outcry on social media.

Reminder this is different than many demolitions because the OK State Fair Inc. operates the fairgrounds on behalf of the city of OKC and its citizens.

https://www.change.org/p/okie-mod-squad-save-the-iconic-state-fair-park-space-needle

The petition article is misleading in stating that the space needle is the last of the original mid century element at the fairgrounds. The Hobbies Arts & Crafts, Modern Living, Made in Oklahoma and Kitchens of America buildings, and WKY Pavilion are also representatives of that time period that are still standing. .... for now.

Would suggesting using a small piece of MAPS IV to build a new one get me thrown off the forum? ;)

I was at the Fairgrounds today.

I had to practically hopscotch down the sidewalks due to the tremendous amount of what I think is goose crap. I realize goose crap is an act of nature, etc, but I don't understand why the sidewalks can't be swept, washed off, or blown clear with a blower early Saturday and Sunday mornings. It wouldn't take much to put some people out on sidewalk clearing duty. It was disgusting. What a great way to make an impression on visitors!

I was in both the Modern Living and it's attached other side. I know these are older buildings, but good grief, they need some touch up paint, they just looked run down. Even though they're older buildings they don't need to look crappy.

It's just that things like this make me wonder, with the prices we pay to attend events, if the Fair Board is more interested in high salaries and benefits rather than managing a city asset to put our best image forward.

Who knows, may be with the other brand new buildings, maybe they'll decide to tear down these older buildings and spend a lot of money on new ones.

Many of us are in favor of a few new enhancements (Replace Arena, new buildings etc.,) to the State Fair Park. The State Fair Board Trust needs to be transparent; open their books...

I think the entire state fair needs a major overhaul starting with the board.

Looking at other fairgrounds around the country, you will find trees, lots of trees, fountains with benches and greens area. Ours is mainly parking lots and huge metal buildings or older run down buildings. I agree with PluPan, we need a major redo!

Okay, here my vision:
Build a decorative space needle in the current area.
New arena in the current location. Call it Mayors Arena
Build the soccer stadium on the old speedway location. Speedway Stadium at State Fair Park.
Build a hotel on the NE corner of Reno and Geronimo. The Vince Gill Oklahoma Horsemen Inn. Featuring a 24 hour cafe Johnnie’s Egg, a partnership of both local favorites.
Work over the road on the west side of the fairgrounds between Reno and NW 10th, making it an effective way to take pressure off of NW 10th and Portland.

Looking at other fairgrounds around the country, you will find trees, lots of trees, fountains with benches and greens area. Ours is mainly parking lots and huge metal buildings or older run down buildings. I agree with PluPan, we need a major redo!I haven’t been around the country but I’ve been to Tulsa, Dallas, Houston and Wichita. All of those are pretty much buildings and pavement. I agree that the OKC fairgrounds needs work but to be fair it’s not much different than the others I’ve been to. I think a lot of OKC suffers from “The grass is always greener syndrome” when our grass by comparison is pretty green.

I haven’t been around the country but I’ve been to Tulsa, Dallas, Houston and Wichita. All of those are pretty much buildings and pavement. I agree that the OKC fairgrounds needs work but to be fair it’s not much different than the others I’ve been to.Dallas fair is much more than that. I think we should ourselves to a little higher standard than Tulsa or Wichita.

I haven’t been around the country but I’ve been to Tulsa, Dallas, Houston and Wichita. All of those are pretty much buildings and pavement. I agree that the OKC fairgrounds needs work but to be fair it’s not much different than the others I’ve been to. I think a lot of OKC suffers from “The grass is always greener syndrome” when our grass by comparison is pretty green.

Freely admit it's been a minute, but last time I was there Dallas had gardens. So this has changed, then? Was the lagoon filled in as well?

Yes, the Texas state fairgrounds are beautiful. It's older as well but has some really nice older buildings with lots of landscaping, reflecting pools and fountains.

The only other fair I've been to was in Milwaukee and their grounds are way, way nicer.

Maybe it’s just that the times I’ve been to Dallas it’s been during the fair and OU vs Texas so it’s wall to wall crowds but you guys are seeing way more to their fairgrounds than I see.

Dallas fair is much more than that. I think we should ourselves to a little higher standard than Tulsa or Wichita.We are comparable in size and resources to Tulsa and Wichita, not Dallas.

We are comparable in size and resources to Tulsa and Wichita, not Dallas.

Also at issue is the fact that OKC citizens have taxed themselves for hundreds of millions of dollars that went directly to the fairgrounds.

Also at issue is the fact that OKC citizens have taxed themselves for hundreds of millions of dollars that went directly to the fairgrounds.While true and sad and unfair. How much have the DFW metroplex taxpayers put into the Texas state fairgrounds? Probably many times that. In your arguments defense it was also probably spent better.

While true and sad and unfair. How much have the DFW metroplex taxpayers put into the Texas state fairgrounds? Probably many times that. In your arguments defense it was also probably spent better.

Nope.

I'm talking about dedicated taxes through MAPS. Dallas has never done anything like that.

Nope.

I'm talking about dedicated taxes through MAPS. Dallas has never done anything like that.The funds for the Texas fairgrounds somehow come from the population base. Of which DFW has a many times greater size than OKC. So many here want to compare ourselves to DFW, KC, Denver, Houston, etc. and it simply isn’t realistic.

I assure you the state fairgrounds in Milwaukee -- which is close to OKC's size -- is light years nicer as well.

And regardless, ours is downright crappy. The grounds are embarrassing, the buildings badly maintained and we've put in acres of parking without a single tree or shrub.

It's simply not acceptable, especially when we have been pouring DEDICATED tax dollars into the facility.

I assure you the state fairgrounds in Milwaukee -- which is close to OKC's size -- is light years nicer as well.

And regardless, ours is downright crappy. The grounds are embarrassing, the buildings badly maintained and we've put in acres of parking without a single tree or shrub.

It's simply not acceptable, especially when we have been pouring DEDICATED tax dollars into the facility.I’m not arguing the point that ours is a horribly mismanaged pile. It is.

I've ridden my bike through the grounds a few times, which is the only times I've been there and really explored the area without the fair being in town.

It's shocking.


I personally didn't care too much about the monorail or the speedway... But there is almost nothing left but livestock and horse barns and the new, plain, completely unlandscaped Expo Building.

Just seas of asphalt parking with zero trees (they've sought exceptions to even the most basic city requirements claiming all that parking has to be open for trailers) and older buildings that could be charming but are just sad.

I couldn’t agree more that the old buildings that could be “classic” are sad. When we had to split the auto show among the other buildings during the transition from the T&T building to the new building we had a hell of a time making the electrial systems function in the old buildings. Simple, basic maintenance and normal upgrades haven’t been done in many, many years.

If any of the old buildings are going to get razed, I do hope that the KOA building is saved. The ceiling in that building is gorgeous and along with the curved roof, it deserves to be saved. The other buildings, with their mid century flavor could be saved as well.

I haven’t been around the country but I’ve been to Tulsa, Dallas, Houston and Wichita. All of those are pretty much buildings and pavement. I agree that the OKC fairgrounds needs work but to be fair it’s not much different than the others I’ve been to. I think a lot of OKC suffers from “The grass is always greener syndrome” when our grass by comparison is pretty green.

No offense, but I've been to the fairgrounds at OKC in the last few years and it's not comparable to Tulsa's, not even close.

Tulsa's fairgrounds (Expo Square) is in very good condition. All the buildings are either new or completely restored. Tulsa did not (and should not) replace the the arena at the fairgrounds, The Pavilion, because it's a great old Art Deco building from 1932.
https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/MMKnfPJ-DDhLS8BtLRBeKg/o.jpg

The Golden Driller is still there and has been restored. The Expo Building has been redone and remains one of the largest clearspan buildings in the world.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kWnD1qfyTls/SndNsNMQMiI/AAAAAAAADJM/ALnKMLia8Is/s1600/IMG_3967.jpg

Tulsa has poured many millions into Expo Square the last 15 years so that all the other major buildings and the barns are all new.
https://media.roverpass.com/pictures/images/000/031/862/full/expo-square-rv-park-tulsa-ok-0.jpg?1487453971

And more is being built
https://gh2.com/portfolio/Equine/ShowMulti-Use/ExpoSquare/data1/images/05_exposquare_gh2architects.jpg

We are comparable in size and resources to Tulsa and Wichita, not Dallas.
So why did our fairgrounds used to be better than the one in Dallas?

That same logic extends to why Tulsa has a park and museum that exceeds any in OKC by light years. It is all about what we standards ourselves to. We can have a better fairgrounds if we want to. OKC deserves it. I see great value in things like that.

I really wish we could preserve our heritage better. The Arrows to Atoms concept is completely brilliant. It speaks to an Oklahoma who has a higher purpose and a theoretical rope that the collective Oklahoma spirit would pull on together. Sure, back then times were different. Now what is Oklahoma’s purpose? It certainly isn’t Arrows to Atoms, but more as a corporate welfare state for oil companies.

Swake, I’ve said that the buildings at our fairgrounds are a disaster. We have no disagreement there. Tulsa has done very well in maintaining and restoring their buildings. We would be well served to be more like them in this respect.

Also, Pete has brought up Milwaukee a couple times. They too are a city we could learn from. They’re relatively close in size. They’re known as a very beautiful city. I’ve never been there but I’m sure they do have a very nice fairgrounds. They also have both a NBA and MLB team. Again in a city about the same size as OKC. They must be doing something right.

The funds for the Texas fairgrounds somehow come from the population base.

Partially, yes.

https://bigtex.com/state-fair-of-texas-contributes-4-million-to-the-city-of-dallas-for-fair-park/

"Many people don’t realize that the State Fair is a nonprofit organization. The Fair’s main revenue source is admissions and parking from the event, as most of the coupon revenue goes to the concessionaires and ride operators, who set their own prices."

No offense, but I've been to the fairgrounds at OKC in the last few years and it's not comparable to Tulsa's, not even close.

Tulsa's fairgrounds (Expo Square) is in very good condition. All the buildings are either new or completely restored. Tulsa did not (and should not) replace the the arena at the fairgrounds, The Pavilion, because it's a great old Art Deco building from 1932.
https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/MMKnfPJ-DDhLS8BtLRBeKg/o.jpg

The Golden Driller is still there and has been restored. The Expo Building has been redone and remains one of the largest clearspan buildings in the world.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kWnD1qfyTls/SndNsNMQMiI/AAAAAAAADJM/ALnKMLia8Is/s1600/IMG_3967.jpg

Tulsa has poured many millions into Expo Square the last 15 years so that all the other major buildings and the barns are all new.
https://media.roverpass.com/pictures/images/000/031/862/full/expo-square-rv-park-tulsa-ok-0.jpg?1487453971

And more is being built
https://gh2.com/portfolio/Equine/ShowMulti-Use/ExpoSquare/data1/images/05_exposquare_gh2architects.jpg

You have a top 10 State Fair/fairgrounds exposition with buildings that were built to last for over a century. We (OKC) are torn between what to do with our State Fair Park because we aren't sure about what's to become of it. We've lost popular structures (Grandstand, Monorail, Arch, Space Tower); we have a State Fair Board Trust that people want more transparency.

OKC State Fair IIRC use to be among the top fairs in the nation, a claim the Tulsa State Fair now enjoys. You built a pavilion/expo center piece for year round exhibitions as well as a catalyst for exhibits at your State Fair. Beautiful Art decor, well preserved --wish OKC had invested in more structures like this for our fair park where you have one of the largest exhibition halls in the country. We had an opportunity to build our State Fair Park for a 1989 exposition. Planning didn't materialize, we settled for the Olympic '89 sports festival which as a huge success. A World's Fair would have brought permanent structures to OKC's Fair Park built by participant countries. Competition among cities for a World Fair exposition in the late 80s was energetic. Brisbane, Australia was awarded the '88 exposition.
Paris & OKC wanted an '89 exposition.

Golden Driller statue stands '75. Big Tex at Dallas State Fair only '55. Tulsa have invested millions in its fairgrounds.

Thanks Swake for sharing...

Laramie, unfortunately, it doesn't seem "we" is the right word to be used in the decision of the fairgrounds here. Were there any public input periods for the destruction/decommission of the grandstands and/or monorail(serious question because I don't know)? There sure doesn't seem to be any for the Space Needle. I'm not as upset about the Arch though I would like to see it rebuilt.

What about the landscaping for the new Bennet Expo Hall which was seemingly forgotten about? The substandard construction which has caused the building to already need repairs. Let's not forget that instead of using arches for support which would have provided more open space inside, they used piers. The awful condition of the parking lots and the horrible accessibility(May Ave. entrance didn't help much). The existing buildings that do have character don't seem to be maintained much if at all.

Though I'd like to see massive improvements such as constructing parking garages on the west side with direct connect ramps to I-44, rebuilt monorail system that expands into Downtown OKC, a rebuilt racetrack and grandstand, a rebuilt arch, I'd be more than happy with some 'basic' and less expensive options. More landscaping around the fair grounds. Better pavement conditions. More paved parking. Bennet Expo Hall landscaping added. Restored Space Needle.

I also support a new arena and yes I support making it better than the one in Fort Worth which would cost north of 400 million. For those who are instantly turned off about cost, not all of it has to come from MAPS. How about using a combination of different sources. This city can find a way. If we want nice things, we have to pay out or shut up. It's that simple.

Oh, and another possible solution that can be had is to replace the fairboard.

Plutonic Panda, you raise good questions and concerns about State Fair Park and other projects that we can't solve overnight because we aren't privy to long-term plans if there are any. OKCTalk board is a good place to start.

I just don't know where to begin.

There will be multiple projects we need to address. Unsolved mystery; where do our priorities lie with State Fair Park and other parts of the city that needs to be addressed.

Back to the Space Tower...

We'll not rebuild OKC's State Fair Park overnight. A piece here or there like our new Bennett Events Center and a new State Fair Arena replacement would help.

Have you noticed the wrought iron gates on the 10th street side of the grounds--people use the trails outside the gate. Looks nice from Portland to May avenues.

This thread addresses the Space Tower, now on the demolition block. We've discussed the tower on other threads for years now.

Quite concerned and puzzled as to what do we do with the Space Tower now that it has been allowed to sit so long untreated, exposed to elements; it not like we didn't see this coming.

Seriously, what do we do; fix it, make it operable again, replace it or mourn about its demise?

Good point about the priorities of the fair. I'm not sure if they have made public an official directive, though if they haven't, it would be nice to see where their priorities lie without having to make assumptions, which all point to the horse show, which is undoubtedly important. That's why I am in support of a hefty investment for a new arena and barn expansions.

A good place to start would be an overhaul of the fair board. I have never once received any kind of response from them when I ask questions about their intentions, future projects, or most recently my questions surrounding their plans for the Space Needle.

We need to understand their finances.

A ton of money flows through that group yet little is spent on maintenance or landscaping.

Also, we should stop giving them MAPS money. They have their own revenue and income from taxes. If they want a new arena then let them get it with those resources.

Keep in mind that they could do a general revenue bond to finance an arena. But why borrow money when you can get complete freebies instead?


Until there is more transparency and accountability, I would be against any more MAPS money going to the fairgrounds.

I am considering taking some financing and city planning classes, but for now, I only have a basic understanding of how these organizations and their finances work.

Based on your previous posts, that only reinforces the need for an overhaul. Is there a reason that the fair is operated by a 3rd party, non profit entity? Is that the norm in other cities? Could the city not create a new authority to deal with the fairgrounds and operations? Either that or the city needs to force transparency, but why would they hide their finances in this situation if there should be nothing to hide?

...why would they hide their finances in this situation if there should be nothing to hide?

I think your answer is already in your question, sir.

^^^^^

We need to understand their finances.

A ton of money flows through that group yet little is spent on maintenance or landscaping.

Also, we should stop giving them MAPS money. They have their own revenue and income from taxes. If they want a new arena then let them get it with those resources.

Keep in mind that they could do a general revenue bond to finance an arena. But why borrow money when you can get complete freebies instead?


Until there is more transparency and accountability, I would be against any more MAPS money going to the fairgrounds.

100% agree. Setting aside opinions as to what to do with the current buildings and architecture on the fairgrounds, I think the only definite going forward is that OKC deserves transparency from those in charge and until we have it there should be no MAPS monies for the fairgrounds.

Does signal an alarm when there's no transparency.

Whether or not we can stop the City from financial support of State Fair Park from putting something on the MAPS 4 initiative remains to be seen. It hasn't stopped the building of barns or the Bennett Events Center. We have $60 - $75 million tied up into Fair Park's 440 acres.

I have always understood that the Gaylord family was heavily involved with the development and management of the fairgrounds since (or before) they moved there in the 1950s. E.K. Gaylord used his companies in cross-linking promotion (such as the WKY tower) and has a statue on the grounds. His son E.L. followed down the same path, as did E.L.'s son-in-law Clay Bennett, who spent a couple years as president of the Fair Board, IIRC. I recall current manager Tim O'Toole is a Gaylord family loyalist. Anyone know if that is/was true?


Assuming I am right, and the Gaylord's are essentially de facto owners, it might help explain much. They appear to be naturally close to the vest, and have tremendous sway over civic management issues.

I'm of mixed opinion on the old attractions. While I've got a soft spot for the space needle and the monorail, I also recognize that they may not make a lot of sense from a purely economic perspective. Now that doesn't mean that there isn't value in preserving them, and perhaps the State Fair Board has underestimated the importance of these things to the community. Although maybe those horse barns are making money hand over fist and the city is making out like a bandit by catering to that group. I'm open to be convinced either way.

What really bothers me is the lack of transparency. Our fairgrounds look pretty ugly and unimpressive, and we've had a dedicated tax going to support them for a long time. I don't think it's unreasonable that we want to know how that money has been spent, and whether the State Fair Board has been a good steward of public money.

Then how does someone - anyone - suggest as an OKC resident that the Fairgrounds management as it stands now is no longer acceptable? Maybe it's a dumb question, but you have to start somewhere.

Then how does someone - anyone - suggest as an OKC resident that the Fairgrounds management as it stands now is no longer acceptable? Maybe it's a dumb question, but you have to start somewhere.

City Council would have to take it up; and/or the new city manager.

City Council would have to take it up; and/or the new city manager.Pete, has there been any updates to the manager position? I'm surprised there hasn't been much wind of this position lately. Huge deal given this is the single-most powerful position in the city.

Any particular interests you might have heard of? Could we gather if Cathy gets it, TIFs, incentives, and operating styles such as the one the state fair board sticks by, are here to stay, maybe even become more prevalent?

It would be nice to know who is seriously interested so we could get a look at the future direction of the city.

I know several locals are interested but not sure who else may be brought in to interview.

Cathy O'Connor is very, very sharp and she's done a lot of great things for OKC.

I might not always agree with all the incentives we give out, but I do have a lot of respect for her and would understand why she might be the person of choice.

I should add, I wasn't saying that in a negative light about her. I don't know much about her, though for some reason I do feel she'd be good for business. It just concerns me the way The Alliance operates which as been brought up here. That why I asked.

Having spent 36 years as a fairgrounds business neighbor, I am of the opinion that the space needle is a great landmark that does not need to work. It lights up beautifully at night, and, along with the arena, makes for a great vision for the "border to border" I-44 traveler. I would rather spend $100 grand to stabilize it as a statue and nightlight, before we spend a million to make it something that works 10 days every year.

^^^^

Having spent 36 years as a fairgrounds business neighbor, I am of the opinion that the space needle is a great landmark that does not need to work. It lights up beautifully at night, and, along with the arena, makes for a great vision for the "border to border" I-44 traveler. I would rather spend $100 grand to stabilize it as a statue and nightlight, before we spend a million to make it something that works 10 days every year.

I like that idea. Pete, the petition says about 1,300 people have signed it. Seriously, is this thing even enough to move the current needle's status? Seriously wasn't trying to make a joke, but it just happened...

I was in Ft. Worth for the OU-TCU game and drove around the new arena in Ft. Worth. It is almost finished and is an absolutely awesome facility. It is definitely aimed at rodeo/livestock type shows, the Stock Show along with sports. If OKC doesn't come up with some pretty nice designs for a State Fairgrounds Arena replacement soon and undertake a campaign of why it's needed, Ft. Worth is going to sweep much of what OKC has in horse and livestock shows across the Red River.

I was in Ft. Worth for the OU-TCU game and drove around the new arena in Ft. Worth. It is almost finished and is an absolutely awesome facility. It is definitely aimed at rodeo/livestock type shows, the Stock Show along with sports. If OKC doesn't come up with some pretty nice designs for a State Fairgrounds Arena replacement soon and undertake a campaign of why it's needed, Ft. Worth is going to sweep much of what OKC has in horse and livestock shows across the Red River.

I absolutely LOVE the arena. We live nearby and are in the area going to the museums and zoo quite a bit. They did an absolutely marvelous job matching the architectural style to the surrounding area. They built a historic-looking arena that will be state of the art. I'm thoroughly impressed and it will add a ton of value to the area.

So, are we suggesting the Fairgrounds build the new arena at that level? Think anyone here has the stomach for the budget?

Yes. Build one that competes with Fort Worth’s or get used to use the idea of OKC having the horse shows that it does to be a thing of the past.

They are proposing a pretty plain jane arena with even more barn space:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena4.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/arena10.jpg

if the landscaping in that plan would actually happen that might be something nice

Hopefully they propose a more ambitious design in the official proposal.

Dickies Arena in FTW:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dickies1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dickies2.jpg

Impressive. I don't see them building that at the fairgrounds tho

wow. i was not expecting to be impressed.

wow. i was not expecting to be impressed.
Why not? Dickies Arena is incredible. Fort Worth didn't spare any expense on it - it looks incredible.