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Rover 07-31-2018, 08:25 AM I think we would be remiss if we discounted either side on this. Yes, obviously a lot of people go to the fair and enjoy it. HOWEVER, that does not mean that we shouldn't push the fair board to do better than they have.
The general State Fair hasn't changed in a long time and probably won't. As said, there are rides, food, building (of varying repair), people selling you junk you dont need (mops and knives anyone?), big stuffed animals, etc. That carnival aspect of the fair is part of the identity and probably won't ever change. And should it? I dont enjoy it myself, but my wife loves it. I go to be with her and the kids while they all have fun. I'm just along for the ride. The food is too greasy for my digestive tract, i hate the buildings with all the people crammed in there, and im not about to buy didly crap. BUT, hey i still go, again because the rest of my family DOES enjoy it.
And that being said, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make the fairgrounds better. Rover, what you'll see over and over again here is people wanting the GROUNDS improved. Move some of that narrow vision away from the agriculture shows and focus on getting better activity there the other 330 days of the year. We're not just talking the gun/knife shows/etc. Spruce the place up so its not so drab. Encourage some other types of construction on the grounds that attract year-round traffic. I dont particularly enjoy using the Dallas Fair as a model, but one thing you see there is several things to do besides just the carnival stuff. They have museums on the grounds for one thing. They kept their history there with Big Tex while we bulldozed (or let it deteriorate to where we had to close) ours. And we have a board that gets public money without having to be open about what they have and what they're doing with it.
So Rover, yeah i think we do still have a long way to go. Even if your polls put us at #1 right now, i think we could still do better. Raise the bar. Dont settle.
I absolutely agree. And, what you say is far different than just saying the fair is horrible and no one goes anymore.
warreng88 08-03-2018, 09:50 AM The Oklahoman is reporting there are over 70 leaks in the roof of the Bennett Event Center. It's behind the paywall, so I can't see all of the content.
PhiAlpha 08-03-2018, 10:16 AM I guess not everyone agrees:
SmartAsset’s list of the ‘Best State Fairs in America’ is as follows:
1. North Dakota State Fair
2. Arizona State Fair
3. Delaware State Fair
4. Washington State Fair
5. Tulsa State Fair
6. Iowa State Fair
7. Oklahoma State Fair
8. Alaska State Fair
9. New Mexico State Fair
10. Nebraska State Fair.
From Vacationsmadeeasy.com:
20. Oklahoma State Fair, Oklahoma City, OK
Every year, the Oklahoma State Fair is spectacular, with endless savory and sweet food options, big name concerts, extreme bull riding and fun competitions (including an arm wrestling competition!). The fair also usually includes an ice skating performance, plenty of rides and games, and quite a bit of fun for adults and kids alike.
The fact that this doesn't even list the State Fair of Texas, which is far and away better than both OKC and Tulsa's fairs, pretty well invalidates it for me. The State Fair of Texas, especially during OU/TX Weekend, is as good or better than any fair I've ever attended.
HOT ROD 08-05-2018, 08:05 PM I was thinking the same thing - Where's the TX State Fair?
Rover 08-05-2018, 08:40 PM Texas state fair doesn’t report and so misses out on objective measurements. Plus, everyone doesn’t think the sun and moon rise and set in Texas.
PhiAlpha 08-06-2018, 07:22 AM Texas state fair doesn’t report and so misses out on objective measurements. Plus, everyone doesn’t think the sun and moon rise and set in Texas.
You don’t have to think the sun and moon rises in Texas to see that it’s one of the best state fairs in the country. It blows ours out of the water and it’s not even close.
Urbanized 08-06-2018, 08:03 AM ^^^^^^^^^
Accurate
HangryHippo 08-06-2018, 08:09 AM You don’t have to think the sun and moon rises in Texas to see that it’s one of the best state fairs in the country. It blows ours out of the water and it’s not even close.
Agreed. The amenities and how they've kept them up blows ours out of the water.
jonny d 08-06-2018, 08:44 AM Agreed. The amenities and how they've kept them up blows ours out of the water.
It is also comparing apples and teriyaki chicken. One is the second largest state in the Union, and the other is Oklahoma...Not really fair to compare.
Rover 08-06-2018, 08:52 AM So, how many where think we should spend a few hundred million to make us a Texas fairground? Just curious their budget vs the DFW gdp and Okc fairground budget vs our GDP. Dallas metro is the 4th largest economy in the US at $475 Billion. OKC is 30th at $189 Billion. Yeah, there might be some reason there is a difference in facility commitment and capability.
Urbanized 08-06-2018, 12:45 PM It is also comparing apples and teriyaki chicken. One is the second largest state in the Union, and the other is Oklahoma...Not really fair to compare.
I also agree with this, which is the case on MANY topics when people compare OKC to Dallas/TX, and meant to post as much. Acknowledging that the Texas Fairgrounds and the fair itself is bigger and nicer than the OK State Fair isn't - at least in my book - an indictment of the Oklahoma versions. I would EXPECT the Texas version to be bigger/nicer, unless Oklahoma specifically targeted and prioritized being bigger/better than its Texas counterpart. And if we did so, it would be fair (no pun intended) to question that as a priority.
But acknowledging something else as bigger or nicer than a local version - WHEN IT QUANTIFIABLY AND UNDENIABLY IS - should't be seen as poor-mouthing or criticizing Oklahoma. Other places also have better mountains, taller buildings, bigger malls, whatever. Plenty of places have less, too.
PhiAlpha 08-06-2018, 01:14 PM I also agree with this, which is the case on MANY topics when people compare OKC to Dallas/TX, and meant to post as much. Acknowledging that the Texas Fairgrounds and the fair itself is bigger and nicer than the OK State Fair isn't - at least in my book - an indictment of the Oklahoma versions. I would EXPECT the Texas version to be bigger/nicer, unless Oklahoma specifically targeted and prioritized being bigger/better than its Texas counterpart. And if we did so, it would be fair (no pun intended) to question that as a priority.
But acknowledging something else as bigger or nicer than a local version - WHEN IT QUANTIFIABLY AND UNDENIABLY IS - should't be seen as poor-mouthing or criticizing Oklahoma. Other places also have better mountains, taller buildings, bigger malls, whatever. Plenty of places have less, too.
Exactly. The main point of my post about the State Fair of Texas was to point out how worthless some rankings lists are. If a top 10 state fair list doesn't even include the State Fair of Texas, but does include OKC & Tulsa's which are undeniably well below the quality of the State Fair of Texas, then it's hard to take such rankings seriously and we certainly shouldn't just assume we're doing just fine because of them.
HOT ROD 08-06-2018, 01:53 PM You don’t have to think the sun and moon rises in Texas to see that it’s one of the best state fairs in the country. It blows ours out of the water and it’s not even close.
Yes, but this didn't used to be the case. ..
That's the point people are making. Oklahoma State Fair used to be a destination holding its own against larger state's fairs in TX, MN, and OH. There used to be destinations at the fair, like them or not, which were annual draws nationwide and in many cases what set OKC apart from Dallas's fair, for example. Today, the fair in OKC is so mediocre that YES it doesn't hold a candle to TX; but I argue that in pre-1995 OKC's fair was one of the top 3 in the nation.
The other point people are arguing is that we're still spending lots of money at the fairgrounds and can't really see where it's being spent. It's one thing to spend money to replace the monorail, space needle, the race track, or the sky ride - it's another thing when all of those things are gone and we're left spending an enormous amount of MAPS dollars on the leaky Bennett Event Center and horse barns. Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't do the horses but I am saying it is clear the horse industry was placed at the detriment of the fair - NOW there is real competition to the south in that sector; we're not seeing how our dollars have been spent to keep OKC even in the conversation.
jedicurt 08-06-2018, 01:58 PM Yes, but this didn't used to be the case. ..
and this i guess is where my memory must be failing me... i have attended every every Oklahoma state fair since 1986, and i don't remember a time when we were even remotely close to the Texas state fair. was this time period before 1986? or did we attend different fairs?
jerrywall 08-06-2018, 04:13 PM and this i guess is where my memory must be failing me... i have attended every every Oklahoma state fair since 1986, and i don't remember a time when we were even remotely close to the Texas state fair. was this time period before 1986? or did we attend different fairs?
I don't think they were ever close, but the gap sure has widened.
HangryHippo 08-06-2018, 06:06 PM I don't think they were ever close, but the gap sure has widened.
This is really the point I was trying to make. Well said, Jerry.
bombermwc 08-07-2018, 07:51 AM That happened when they downsized the fair, cut down the number of days, started allowing the buildings to deteriorate like crazy, and used a "family" approach as an excuse to cut things out. The most distinct "Family" reduction was the insult dunk clown. Yeah he was crude, but even as a kid i thought it was funny, even if he was targeting me. Really, they could have organized areas to be more focussed towards adults and retained those things. For a brief bit, we had a fairly good good truck row, but that's gone away. Another problem i see is when they started using the contract vendor for all items. So now we're limited to what that single vendor has. It's a lot less varying in what's offered, although there are some things we didnt have before (mostly on the kid side).
The problem for me in the fair itself, is that it lacks "destination" things there. If you aren't in to the carnival thing, it's a total dud. We could add some things that are extra to bring people in. Think of something like when Nintendo Power was here. Have that as an event DURING the fair. They could still charge an extra fee for getting in to that event. But much like how you walk out of WalMart with more than you meant to get, if you walk through the fair on the way to the show, you might buy some extra food, play some games, etc. So the fair becomes the extras for that person. Bring some of the Arts back to the grounds like we had when City Arts Center was there. But all of these things can't be done if all we focus on is ag shows. We HAVE to expand our vision.
HOT ROD 08-07-2018, 11:14 AM ok, sure TX has always had a much nicer fair. But OKC used to be highly ranked with them and Minnesota and Ohio.
Bullbear 08-07-2018, 11:17 AM I am sure its been mentioned but for me it lost its appeal when they began removing all of the "Place Making" elements. you expected to see these areas each time and it oriented you as to where you were and made it feel special. The "Arrows to Atoms" space needle no longer works and I am sure they will knock it down as soon as they can. There was the Cottonwood post area with all the random Telephone poles in front of the fort type structure. The monorail and the Grandstands. Now the arch has toppled and I am sure will not be replaced. there were a few fountains that no longer exist as well. Even newer structures that were interesting like the International building changed after the inflatable cable tied top blew off in a storm they replaced it to look just like any other building.. The Planes that were mounted in the air behind cottonwood post and my grandmother use to always have flowers in the Fair in the Flowers building and there was a waterfall and permanent stream inside that they would plant and last I was ever in that building it was gutted and not sure its even in use any longer. Those Items made the fair seem special. Now they could basically put the fair in any parking lot like a traveling carnival because there isn't much special there.
Rover 08-07-2018, 11:22 AM I think there are two different arguments ... fairgrounds and fairs.
Bullbear 08-07-2018, 11:28 AM I think there are two different arguments ... fairgrounds and fairs.
But doesn't the fairgrounds itself kind of enhance the Fair experience? Making it more appealing as a fair?
or is this argument just that the fair doesn't have as many displays of ribbon winning livestock and quilts or nearly enough Hot Tub sales people?
Rover 08-07-2018, 11:38 AM Since this OKC is so crappy version 1,000 thread has been going on I have been searching a lot for objective info. As to fairgrounds, I have found very little on how fairgrounds fit into lifestyle designs for contemporary American cities. I don’t find it in any calculus for quality of life, etc. So, my question is, why is this such a hot point for so many posters here?
Best I can tell, people are upset we took down a small, badly maintained “space needle” and a dilapidated monorail that was at best an old amusement ride. Is it just the fact that removing them means the end of childhood for some? They certainly don’t represent anything cultural or historic for OKC or OK.
As for the art museums... would we rather have OKCMOA downtown or in a cheap old building on the fairgrounds? How about the new contemporary art center being built...rather downtown or west OKC? We certainly don’t support arts well enough for multiple high quality art museums and art districts. Personally I’d rather see the local art scene at Paseo than at the Fairgrounds.
So, what is the real role of a fairgrounds in a modern city and is it more important than the other things we are doing?
Rover 08-07-2018, 11:47 AM But doesn't the fairgrounds itself kind of enhance the Fair experience? Making it more appealing as a fair?
or is this argument just that the fair doesn't have as many displays of ribbon winning livestock and quilts or nearly enough Hot Tub sales people?
I think a good example for us should be the Iowa State Firgrounds in Des Moines... a good mix of old and new and has some personality. My biggest complaint with ours is that we don’t make the buildings we have look very permanent...too many metal buildings. Let’s see if we step it up with the new arena. We will see how much the public supports the idea of improving the facilities.
jedicurt 08-07-2018, 12:29 PM Best I can tell, people are upset we took down a small, badly maintained “space needle” and a dilapidated monorail that was at best an old amusement ride. Is it just the fact that removing them means the end of childhood for some? They certainly don’t represent anything cultural or historic for OKC or OK.
that's exactly what i have been trying to find on this thread. i'm looking for what really is the issue... is it because we took down items that were just ripoffs of what other places had done better?
I'm still trying to get an answer for what made the fair "so great" that isn't there now... what is the objective answer as to what has changed, and then look to see if that actually added any real value. or is it all subjective items that never really had any value.
Laramie 08-07-2018, 01:17 PM So, how many where think we should spend a few hundred million to make us a Texas fairground? Just curious their budget vs the DFW gdp and Okc fairground budget vs our GDP. Dallas metro is the 4th largest economy in the US at $475 Billion. OKC is 30th at $189 Billion. Yeah, there might be some reason there is a difference in facility commitment and capability.
Dallas' Texas State Fair Park is a 2nd-to-none fairgrounds' gauge. Fair Park encompasses 277 acres; OSF has 440 acres. Remember, many of the structures at Dallas' Fair Park were built during 1936 Texas Centennial Exposition (TCE). Big D was smart to upgrade, renovate & maintain those expositions built by counties who participated in the '36 World's Fair. Dallas added some 30 structures since the TCE.
The City of OKC should include $100 million on the next MAPS IV initiative for Oklahoma State Fairgrounds' capital improvements with citizens' input. Match dollar for dollar not to exceed $100 million on a new State Fair Arena replacement; if the State Fair Board chips in $60 million--then $120 million becomes available for a new arena. OKC would have to include $100 million (exclude arena matching funds) for separate fairgrounds CI--example: new space tower, monorail or streetcar extension etc.
http://www.adventuresbydaddy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Top-O-Texas.jpg
Dallas spent $12 million in 2013 to construct the 500 feet Top O' Texas Tower at Fair Park.
OKC: Invest $30 million of $100 million capital improvements (CI) on something comparable like a new 660 ft., Arrows-to-Atoms Space Tower replacement--twice the height of the present 330 ft., non operating tower.
Decide if we want a new monorail or extend the streetcar from DT to an oval loop circling inside the fairgrounds with potential expansion to WRWA. Just a few ideas to get started...
jedicurt 08-07-2018, 01:25 PM only thing i agree with you on this would be streetcar expansion
shawnw 08-07-2018, 02:26 PM transit connection yes, 100M more on fairgrounds in next MAPS? sorry, no. with the exception of arena replacement. I'd be okay with that.
Rover 08-07-2018, 03:24 PM Dallas' Texas State Fair Park is a 2nd-to-none fairgrounds' gauge. Fair Park encompasses 277 acres; OSF has 440 acres. Remember, many of the structures at Dallas' Fair Park were built during 1936 Texas Centennial Exposition (TCE). Big D was smart to upgrade, renovate & maintain those expositions built by counties who participated in the '36 World's Fair. Dallas added some 30 structures since the TCE.
The City of OKC should include $100 million on the next MAPS IV initiative for Oklahoma State Fairgrounds' capital improvements with citizens' input. Match dollar for dollar not to exceed $100 million on a new State Fair Arena replacement; if the State Fair Board chips in $60 million--then $120 million becomes available for a new arena. OKC would have to include $100 million (exclude arena matching funds) for separate fairgrounds CI--example: new space tower, monorail or streetcar extension etc.
http://www.adventuresbydaddy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Top-O-Texas.jpg
Dallas spent $12 million in 2013 to construct the 500 feet Top O' Texas Tower at Fair Park.
OKC: Invest $30 million of $100 million capital improvements (CI) on something comparable like a new 660 ft., Arrows-to-Atoms Space Tower replacement--twice the height of the present 330 ft., non operating tower.
Decide if we want a new monorail or extend the streetcar from DT to an oval loop circling inside the fairgrounds with potential expansion to WRWA. Just a few ideas to get started...
IF we were going to spend that much on a new space needle, would we really rather have it at I-44/I-40 or I-35/I-40 at the Riversport area? Rather extend the streetcar to the fairgrounds or Capital Hill?
Laramie 08-07-2018, 04:47 PM An observation tower 660 ft., too close to the core IMO wouldn't be as scenic. Need a mile or more: Seattle Space Needle is 1.4 miles from downtown.
My vision for streetcar expansion to the fairgrounds would be to add some attractions like an observation tower; expand rail to WRWA. You need some pieces at the fairgrounds like the tower which could be open 10-11 months a year. Add some year round pieces; we've got 440 acres, 110 acres larger than 227 acre Fair Park in Dallas.
It's 5 miles from DT to the fairgrounds. Rail alone will cost 5 miles x $13 million per mile = $65 million rail costs; eventually to WRWA thru Meridian Hotel Corridor from Fairgrounds 8.8 miles 9 x $13 million = $144 million. There's no inexpensive route (14 miles) to run the streetcar that distance--it's a future investment which could involve several funding sources--MAPS, Airport Bonds, State Fair Board, Grants, Federal dollars...
From Downtown rail: 1 Myriad Gardens Oklahoma City, Cox Convention Center
(5 miles)
To Fairgrounds to: 3001 General Pershing Blvd, Oklahoma City
(8.8 miles)
WRWA: 7100 Terminal Dr, Oklahoma City - 14 miles from DT to WRWA
These are rough low end estimates...
You want these things, you need sources to fund them; you also need attractions (Arena, Observation Tower, Streetcar) in between at the Fairgrounds. Rail to WRWA would grow more development along the route
Get the new arena built; we have horse shows & exhibits ready for a long term commitment before Fort Worth sweeps them up.
bombermwc 08-13-2018, 08:24 AM Since this OKC is so crappy version 1,000 thread has been going on I have been searching a lot for objective info. As to fairgrounds, I have found very little on how fairgrounds fit into lifestyle designs for contemporary American cities. I don’t find it in any calculus for quality of life, etc. So, my question is, why is this such a hot point for so many posters here?
Best I can tell, people are upset we took down a small, badly maintained “space needle” and a dilapidated monorail that was at best an old amusement ride. Is it just the fact that removing them means the end of childhood for some? They certainly don’t represent anything cultural or historic for OKC or OK.
As for the art museums... would we rather have OKCMOA downtown or in a cheap old building on the fairgrounds? How about the new contemporary art center being built...rather downtown or west OKC? We certainly don’t support arts well enough for multiple high quality art museums and art districts. Personally I’d rather see the local art scene at Paseo than at the Fairgrounds.
So, what is the real role of a fairgrounds in a modern city and is it more important than the other things we are doing?
Actually i believe we addressed these questions and you're misrepresenting some of my statements regarding the art museum.
So lets start with that art museum. Yes, we had the City Arts Center on the fairgrounds before. Yes, it moved downtown. Yes it's better downtown. Am i looking for the art museum to be back at the fair? NO! What i said was, it was something that counted as a DESTINATION at the grounds outside of the carnival or gun shows. That's an aspect we are missing on our grounds. Something that serves as a destination for visitors. We USED to have that in the speedway. But think along those lines in that we're looking for something to bring people in (other than cow and horse shows) regularly that people go directly to the grounds because that's where that thing is. Be creative in thinking about out-of-the-box ideas on what that could be. The frustration here comes from the fair board being so narrowly focussed on ONLY adding items for those agriculture shows. I feel like we should be diversifying that more. Not putting so many eggs in one basket (pun). If those shows ever do leave OKC, what are we left with? A bunch of empty barns and RV hookups and nothing else to show for it.
Another point we/I have made that you didn't read appropriately, was that the grounds themselves are CRAP! We could spend a little money and make our fair grounds into something nice with landscaping work, or at least the addition of some stonework, trees, etc. We dont need wood chips running off from the rain or sprinklers running during the rain. But patchy asphalt and weedy grass is our current landscaping choice, and i think we can do better. Think of it like your own house. Even if you have a very nice home, if your yard looks like crap, then the whole place is brought down. Spruce up that flowerbed and the appearance of the whole place is better and more pleasing. Same thing here.
As for lifestyle, it's a fair. It's not part of any lifestyle category, so stop looking. It's not an amenity people count in city rankings. That doesn't mean we should be making it all it can be. If we follow the logic you placed there, then we shouldn't be concerned about the sewer system either. Hey, it's not part of a ranking in "lifestyle" so why care right? How about electricity? Extreme, but i think you get my point on why we are focussing on making the grounds better.
I really don't care that much about the fairgrounds. I go to the fair maybe once every four or five years, and usually just get a funnel cake or something. Sure, the carnival aspect is kind of fun, but the whole thing is pretty low on my priority list. I do miss the arch thing, and going up in the space needle. I only rode the monorail once or twice, and that was when I was a little kid. Honestly the last time that I went before a lot of those "attractions" were removed, they seemed really small-time. If I didn't have somewhat fond memories of going there as a kid, I wouldn't have thought much about them at all.
It's much more important to me that the people running the thing are spending our tax dollars wisely. I'm disturbed by the idea that there's no oversight, the money just disappears into a black hole and we have no idea what they're doing with it. That needs to change before we allocate another cent to the State Fair Board. They may be doing a great job, but we don't have any way of verifying that right now.
I wouldn't mind having an impressive fairgrounds, but we'd need a real plan and not just throw money at the State Fair Board. Right now, everything I've seen them build seems very bland and utilitarian. Maybe those horse barns just rake in the cash, but they sure are ugly as crap. I've done some Googling, and it seems that our state fair looks pretty much like every other state fair around the country. I don't think we're really lagging behind, but I couldn't really tell the difference between ours and anybody else's. Texas' fairgrounds are cool because they've got a bunch of old Art Deco buildings. Ours doesn't have anything like that.
Right now, the State Fair Board has no sense of style. You could give them a billion dollars and they'd fill that place with the finest in sheet metal construction and asphalt. If we're going to make a real investment in it, we need to get a result like the old World's Fairs. We need monuments, reflecting pools, high quality architecture, and something to inspire. If we're going to spend money, let's build something worth preserving.
SoonerDave 08-13-2018, 10:22 AM The whole point here is that the OK State Fair *used* to be a "destination" fair. It *did* compare favorably, for a time, with the Texas and Ohio State Fairs. That was phenomenal in and of itself. Then tragedy is that we purposely let it go to nil. I've lost count of how many times people have wanted something distinctive in OKC; the Fair was it. Or at least one of those things in the discussion. The lost potential is tragic for OKC.
jedicurt 08-13-2018, 10:36 AM The lost potential is tragic for OKC.
please explain your thoughts on this further... maybe this is where i'm getting lost.
SoonerDave 08-13-2018, 11:03 AM please explain your thoughts on this further... maybe this is where i'm getting lost.
Our fairgrounds (and, this, our fair) had unique structures and attractions. It had the bomber display, the 14 Flags Plaza, fountains throughout, and cannas lined many of the walkways. You had the monorail and the space needle that, again, made the fair distinctive. OKC should have leveraged those assets into something that *continued* to make that Fair a destination, not just an afterthought north of the horse barns.
Of *course* the youngest people here don't see it or appreciate it, because it's all been razed - and most of it purposely because it offended the tastes and sensibilities of the effete and elite. We really had a fair that was mentioned in the same breath as fairs from Texas and Ohio with much greater resources. Heavens, we gave kids a day off from school and a free ticket to *attend* the fair back in the day. What a great foundation! Except that we chose a path that made it...just another fair. You see what it has become. I see what it once was, and see the path not taken. And all of OKC as a community is the worse for it.
jedicurt 08-13-2018, 11:11 AM i guess this thread just isn't for me. because i don't remember the fair that way. i have gone almost every year since 1986, and i always thought it was low-rent and barely up to par as being a state fair, let alone be mentioned in the same paragraph as the Texas state fair. perhaps this glory time was before 1986 and i missed it. or perhaps my experience just wasn't the same as yours. so for those reasons, i'm just going to be done with this thread because it is too much about the idea subjective memory and nostalgia (in my opinion) rather than tangible details that can be discussed
The whole point here is that the OK State Fair *used* to be a "destination" fair. It *did* compare favorably, for a time, with the Texas and Ohio State Fairs. That was phenomenal in and of itself. Then tragedy is that we purposely let it go to nil. I've lost count of how many times people have wanted something distinctive in OKC; the Fair was it. Or at least one of those things in the discussion. The lost potential is tragic for OKC.
I remember what it was like, and I think you're giving it more credit than it deserves.
Rover 08-13-2018, 11:44 AM Last year’s fair attendance was up 12.5%. Texas St Fair, down 6.5%. Tulsa, down 8.8%. Doesn’t seem like it’s dying here in OKC from the tragedy. OKC was the 21st best attended event of fairs, rodeos and livestock shows, etc. And that is with many above them running more days.
I think the lamenting of the death of the OKC fair is premature and somewhat hysterical.
Now, the issue of the aesthetics of the fairgrounds is a whole other thing.
SoonerDave 08-13-2018, 12:17 PM Last year’s fair attendance was up 12.5%. Texas St Fair, down 6.5%. Tulsa, down 8.8%. Doesn’t seem like it’s dying here in OKC from the tragedy. OKC was the 21st best attended event of fairs, rodeos and livestock shows, etc. And that is with many above them running more days.
I think the lamenting of the death of the OKC fair is premature and somewhat hysterical.
Now, the issue of the aesthetics of the fairgrounds is a whole other thing.
Okay, so lamenting the loss of an important piece of OKC history makes me hysterical. #smh
Current approximate annual fair attendance: 900,000.
Fair attendance in 1992: 1.73 million. Record attendance? 1.8 million in 1989.
Something was sure lost in the translation for the 50% *drop* in attendance over those years. Maybe they're all hysterical too. It would be nice to express an opinion without someone resorting to name-calling. I don't think I've done that to anyone in this thread....this is just an OKC issue I feel strongly about, and I realize others don't care, and that's fine, too. I also realize it's of no value to belabor the point because the damage has long since been done.
BTW Laramie, love your suggestions for new fair projects. The tower at the Texas fairgrounds is phenomenal. Would love to see OKC emulate it.
Rover 08-13-2018, 12:20 PM Okay, so lamenting the loss of an important piece of OKC history makes me hysterical. #smh
Current approximate annual fair attendance: 900,000.
Fair attendance in 1992: 1.73 million. Record attendance? 1.8 million in 1989.
Something was sure lost in the translation for the 50% *drop* in attendance over those years. Maybe they're all hysterical too. It would be nice to express an opinion without someone resorting to name-calling. I don't think I've done that to anyone in this thread....this is just an OKC issue I feel strongly about, and I realize others don't care, and that's fine, too. I also realize it's of no value to belabor the point because the damage has long since been done.
BTW Laramie, love your suggestions for new fair projects. The tower at the Texas fairgrounds is phenomenal. Would love to see OKC emulate it.
I think what was lost was number of days of fair operation. It was shortened, as was a number of fairs around the country.
jedicurt 08-13-2018, 01:07 PM Current approximate annual fair attendance: 900,000.
Fair attendance in 1992: 1.73 million. Record attendance? 1.8 million in 1989.
texas state fair in 1986 was just shy of 4 million. from then till late 1990's it was averaging well over 3 million every year. a baylor study shows that 2013 might have been the lowest year at 1.5 million. they are saying last year was 2.25 million.
so they are almost cut in half from their high numbers too. could it just be that maybe fairs in general are not doing as well? that appears to be what the statistics show. Minnesota and Ohio state fairs show close to half as many as the late 1980's as well.
so it's entirely possible that (based upon statics of attendance at fairs nation wide) the city didn't do anything positive or negative to the fairgrounds with regards to attendance, as we fall right in line with other state fairs. infact, when you look at difference in population increases, we actually fared (sorry for the pun) much better than the Texas state fair.
Bullbear 08-13-2018, 01:47 PM I think what was lost was number of days of fair operation. It was shortened, as was a number of fairs around the country.
it shorted from 17 days to 11 in 2004
PaddyShack 08-13-2018, 03:29 PM I feel like there are just more things to do in OKC than the fair. 1989 and 1992 was before a lot of the nightlife boomed in Bricktown and definitely before most of the districts coming online. This could just be a fact of there are more options competing for people's time and dollars. Most, if not all of my friends would rather go to Top Golf, Hey Day, the movies, or Downtown places than the fair, even though it is once a year. They just don't see the reason for over-priced food and drinks and the crowds. A lot of them have the conception that the fair attracts the crazies from OKC.
Me personally, and my wife as well, love going out to the fair. We enjoy mingling with all of the crowds and seeing all of the things that people submit for competitions, whether it is Agriculture, art, or foods. It also helps that my company sells discounted tickets so we usually end up going 3 or 4 times a year.
Rover 08-13-2018, 04:38 PM Fairs used to be about more farm stuff.... growing stuff, baking stuff, raising stuff...
With a once a year carnival extravaganza. The new farm equipment was introduced. The new cars were introduced. Etc., etc. With the internet and other modern communications, we don’t look forward to the fair being what it was. As OKC becomes more urban there is a lot more entertainment competition, so maybe more people don’t rely on the once a year fair to eat different food, or see different shows, etc. we get that all the time now.
Also consider in OK we have two of the top 20 attended state fairs in America. States like Iowa and Minnesota are bigger , but have one major fair. And Texas State Fair SHOULD dwarf us...the metroplex has 5 times the population.
bombermwc 08-14-2018, 07:42 AM If you're looking at total numbers of visitors, then you're calculating this wrong. Because there is a difference in the number of days each fair is run, it's not an apples to apples comparison.
If you want to do this the right way, then calculate the daily average attendance given the number of days the fair is running. And to REALLY get it right, you'll have to account for the difference in MSA area population. So the most accurate attendance gauge is going to be average % of MSA population on a given day. Because Dallas Metro is NOT the OKC Metro, so we should see significantly lower daily numbers (and overall). But make that number an ADM and you'll get a better picture of how the local populace views the thing. This also tends to balance out the repeat visitors better because it is an average.
Did i nerd that up enough for you? :)
Rover, also keep in mind that the sources you are using for numbers, rely on the fairs to report their numbers. A great number of them do NOT report, and thus the report loses some validity.
bombermwc 08-14-2018, 07:44 AM ugh, double posted.....deleting.
Rover 08-14-2018, 12:19 PM Rover, also keep in mind that the sources you are using for numbers, rely on the fairs to report their numbers. A great number of them do NOT report, and thus the report loses some validity.
Yes, some sources didn’t and some did. Sources that include all fairs, including Texas generally had OKC in the top 20 fairs. Those not having numbers from non reporting had us in top 10.
aDark 08-14-2018, 01:09 PM This thread is full of spicy comments.
One fact that I have seen both "sides" agree upon is that over the past few decades attendance to fairs has dropped substantially. Instead of debating the "why" behind that attendance drop I propose we discuss whether the fair and fairgrounds are worthy of continued investment. Looking forward, it is reasonable to assume fair attendance is going to continue it's natural progression downward based on evidence from around the country. Further, I propose it is reasonable to assume the agricultural community is going to continue to to shrink due to both the mechanization of farming and corporate influence on farming. With both in mind, is investing in the fair grounds a wise use of funds?
Personally, if Maps 4 includes significant proposals related to the fairgrounds funding I will be less supportive of the package. Put another way, would you support Maps 4 if it included a stimulus for shopping malls? Malls are objectively dying and we have no problem agreeing on that. When we talk about the fairgrounds emotions seem to take over. Are they really very different?
*I am not against fairs or farmers.*
Rover 08-14-2018, 01:33 PM Maybe we need to re-brand and quit calling it "Oklahoma State Fair Park". What it really needs to be is the Oklahoma City Event and Expo Center. Maybe a "fair" is a quaint nod to our times as kids. Maybe we get more focus on the facility if we re-position people's idea of its true purpose.
jedicurt 08-14-2018, 01:45 PM Maybe we need to re-brand and quit calling it "Oklahoma State Fair Park". What it really needs to be is the Oklahoma City Event and Expo Center. Maybe a "fair" is a quaint nod to our times as kids. Maybe we get more focus on the facility if we re-position people's idea of its true purpose.
i agree with this 100%... we need to find the best use for this property going forward to get the best for the City, County and State. perhaps a re brand from the "fair Park" would go a long ways in that
Laramie 08-14-2018, 09:23 PM Maybe we need to re-brand and quit calling it "Oklahoma State Fair Park". What it really needs to be is the Oklahoma City Event and Expo Center. Maybe a "fair" is a quaint nod to our times as kids. Maybe we get more focus on the facility if we re-position people's idea of its true purpose.
True purpose? Not quite sure of your true meaning.
We've watched 4 of the State Fair Park's most iconic structures (Monorail, Space Tower, Grand Stands & Entrance Arch) disappear within the last 20 years; nothing been replaced. An aging 43 year old State Fair Arena with serious roof & structural deficiencies. Forget about the barns we've built because we will eventually lose all of our horse shows to Fort Worth.
State Fair Park will host the Oklahoma County Free Fair--August 25-27 & the State Fair--September 13-23, that's a starter for annual events. We need something (a centerpiece or anchor) that will attract people to the grounds year round. A real tower something in 600 ft., range or higher could be used as a 360 degree observatory to view the whole city; yet add to the Oklahoma City Skyline. We could construct a grand tower in the $25-30 million range.
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/okshores.jpg
My preference would be State Fair Park or AICCM site.
Rover 08-14-2018, 10:46 PM Iconic space tower, monorail, arch, grandstands. Old, small, dilapidated, maybe. Iconic...never were and sure wouldn't be now.
Add $30 million viewing tower at the fairgrounds for the next MAPs and we’ll see how much support it has vs. streetcar, trails, bike lanes, etc. if it fits in our vision and most people support it, great. Go to work and make it happen
Laramie 08-15-2018, 12:05 PM Priority #1: Norick State Fair Arena replacement
Priority #2: Space Tower replacement (year round tourist attraction for arena & state-county fair events).
If State Fair Park is being re-purposed to cater totally to the horse show industry & related exhibits; then do we need to transform this area?
More concerned is with the shows & exhibits OKC has under contract now; because Fort Worth's new Dixies Arena will be an attractive venue tailored for horse show events & exhibits. Dixies Arena ($600 million) will be to the horse show industry what Dallas' American Airlines Center (current value $580 million) offers to sports & the NBA.
We don't necessarily need a whole lot of venues; however OKC does need to invest in a quality State Fair Arena replacement that will require more than $80 million to compete with newer arenas like FW Dixies Arena & Las Vegas' $375 million T-Mobile Arena. It doesn't hurt to have some nearby attractions to help secure long term commitments like a new Space Tower.
You can bet Ft. Worth will offer long-term commitments to use Dixies Arena; like the NFR, we'll never see these events again. All we have invested in the transformation of our State Fair Park to cater to the horse industry will be at stake if we don't invest in some dollars $$$. Have no idea what type of venue it would take to stay competitive & secure long-term commitments--State Fair Board Trust & MAPS would be potential funding source.
A new State Fair Arena could continue to host high school playoffs, renew contacts with current horse shows & exhibits; also the possibility of ice hockey's return on the ECHL AA level to our city with arch rivals Tulsa & Wichita. Let's not wait until we lose another gem like we did with the NFR before we act; collectively, a number of the shows we have if lost to Fort Worth could have an equivalent devastation as the lost of the NFR.
Jersey Boss 08-15-2018, 01:52 PM It would be financial folly to invest 1 penny in taxpayer funding without the fair board opening up all their books and financial statements.
jn1780 08-15-2018, 03:45 PM Double
jn1780 08-15-2018, 03:47 PM I wouldn't want to invest money in a observation tower at the state fair. There's just nothing to leverage in that area. It's just a nice observation tower in the middle of nowhere. It's the cotton bowl that makes the texas state fair special. Everything there revolves around that. The OK state fair had baseball, autoracing, and other events happening at the arena. Two of these things became irrelevant with newer facilities. The city wanted to get rid of the speedway in order to remove the noise that may scare higher income residents away from the downtown area.
The Oklahoman is reporting the space needle is set for destruction in a few months.
https://newsok.com/article/5612823/space-tower-to-come-down-at-state-fair-park
The space needle has been closed since 2010 after a flood impacted its electrical system. As you can see from these recent photo, the attraction has been allowed to rust and decay. Fairgrounds officials are now saying it is too expensive to save and that it is unsafe in high winds.
(Photos all by Tony Gaeddert and used with his permission)
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/needle1.jpg
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/needle2.jpg
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/needle3.jpg
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/needle4.jpg
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/needle6.jpg
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/needle5.jpg
HangryHippo 10-25-2018, 09:02 AM They ought to just turn this into the Oklahoma Horse Park and go from there.
I predict a pretty big outrage over this.
Yes, it's been inoperable since 2010 but they've basically just let the thing rot; the tried and true approach of demolition by neglect.
Throw another fair icon onto the trash heap: Monorail, Speedway, Arch and now the Space Needle.
Mballard85 10-25-2018, 09:11 AM I predict a pretty big outrage over this.
Yes, it's been inoperable since 2010 but they've basically just let the thing rot; the tried and true approach of demolition by neglect.
Throw another fair icon onto the trash heap: Monorail, Speedway, Arch and now the Space Needle.
Its really sad that they are pulling this, they have done little to enhance the fair experience from what I can tell. I understand that the actual Fair is probably not a massive portion of their income, but at the same time, history is being erased. I'm just glad I am old enough to say I got to experience all the "icons" listed above.
^
Forgot to mention the State Fair Arena (now Jim Norick Arena) is also planned for demolition in favor of a brand new facility.
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