Questor
01-27-2013, 12:20 AM
Allow grocers to sell anything they want. If liquor stores don't like just selling liquor, then at least they'd be free to become a grocery store and sell whatever they want too.
View Full Version : If the liquor laws in OK were modernized... Questor 01-27-2013, 12:20 AM Allow grocers to sell anything they want. If liquor stores don't like just selling liquor, then at least they'd be free to become a grocery store and sell whatever they want too. Uncle Slayton 01-27-2013, 09:54 AM If the liquor laws of Oklahoma were modernized then Oklahoma would have more alcoholics. Ya gotta love it! There's nothing quite as nice as so-called progress. As we always say, "to hell with family and neighbors, let's get drunk!" It's a wonderful world. I ask with a genuine interest in the answer. Do you really think this disjointedly or simplistically cause and effect? You asked me the other day to give examples of how you often anchor the fundamentalist end of the scale. This is an example. Hoist from your own petard, as it were. You assume simply because high point beer and wine can be sold in stores that 'regular god-fearin people' go to, that the product will accost them in the aisles, pop themselves open and pour down the throats of unwilling patrons? I'm not going to go political or religious here, not the forum for it, but if you ever get raging migraines, it's not from some underlying organic cause, it's all those non-sequiturs banging around in there. Your thoughts are like mismatched socks. They never quite pair up, but after a while you just say "meh, that's good enough." Uncle Slayton 01-27-2013, 09:59 AM And yet bourbon distilling was started by the right Reverend Elijah Craig.......another inconvenient truth. But he was probably the "wrong" kind of reverend...... A Baptist minister too, to boot. One wonders if God inspired him to char the inside of his barrels before filling them with his whisky. kevinpate 01-27-2013, 11:31 AM FWIW SJR 7 is about barring the acceptance of certain federal education funds in the future. SJR 17 is the joint resolution to remold ABLE into BADE. Hmmmm, maybe they should given them explicit authority over gang activity as well. kevinpate 01-27-2013, 11:42 AM HB2061 is a bit unnerving. It's also unclear. Is this referring simply to self checkouts? Does it mean any store which offers self checkouts can't sell beer or you simply can't buy it through the self-checkout option. I don't see it as unnerving in its present form. It's simply codifying what should already take place: no sale without an id check if there is a reasonable question as to the age of the purchaser. As it is written, it wouldn't bat self-checkout, but the process would, as someone else noted, flag a store rep. to come and verify age before matters would proceed to final checkout. The odd part to me is to require a wholesaler to repurchase the stock if some yutz on the retail end causes a retail license to be pulled. I don't see that going all the way through to final passage myself. The wholesaler is not at fault in any manner under the circumstances that trigger the requirement. bchris02 05-15-2013, 09:48 AM Does anybody think anything has a high-flying chance of getting on the ballot for the 2014 midterm elections? Even if it did, could anything liberalizing the alcohol laws pass? There is a large group of voters in this state that believes alcohol consumption is sin and will be out in force against any amendment that loosens the restrictions. More hypocrisy from the party of small government and individual liberty in telling fully grown adults they cannot buy full strength beer because an interpretation of the Bible that didn't exist until the late 19th century in America says its a sin. At the very least, allow liquor stores to stay open past 9PM and allow them to sell beer cold. Why wouldn't that be an acceptable compromise? BoulderSooner 05-15-2013, 09:59 AM Does anybody think anything has a high-flying chance of getting on the ballot for the 2014 midterm elections? Even if it did, could anything liberalizing the alcohol laws pass? There is a large group of voters in this state that believes alcohol consumption is sin and will be out in force against any amendment that loosens the restrictions. More hypocrisy from the party of small government and individual liberty in telling fully grown adults they cannot buy full strength beer because an interpretation of the Bible that didn't exist until the late 19th century in America says its a sin. At the very least, allow liquor stores to stay open past 9PM and allow them to sell beer cold. Why wouldn't that be an acceptable compromise? the liqueur lobby doesn't want the laws changed ... they are the reason they have not been Bunty 05-15-2013, 10:48 AM the liqueur lobby doesn't want the laws changed ... they are the reason they have not been So why don't they want to sell bottle openers? Is it due to the fear that customers will open their bottles and get drunk in the parking lot and annoying sober customers coming in? bchris02 05-15-2013, 11:23 AM What makes absolutely no sense is the fact most liquor stores have whiskey by the half-pint or even shot for sale at the register. If a hardcore alcoholic felt the need to chug in the parking lot, their likely drink of choice is readily available. The current laws punish wine and craft beer drinkers, who are more likely to be moderate drinkers. But of course, the Bible says a drop of alcohol to the tongue is sin according to the people fighting to keep these antiquated laws on the books. I can understand the liquor lobby's position against wine in grocery stores, but there are numerous things that can be done that would be good for liquor stores and would give the consumer more freedom and overall choices. Why aren't those changes being pursued if not for the anti-alcohol fundamentalist conservatives? jerrywall 05-15-2013, 11:34 AM So why don't they want to sell bottle openers? Is it due to the fear that customers will open their bottles and get drunk in the parking lot and annoying sober customers coming in? The liquor stores would be fine with bottle openers. They'd also like refrigeration. There are plenty of laws they wouldn't mind seeing changed. Trust me, as someone who owned a shop until a few years ago, there's not some all powerful liquor lobby. You want to know why liquor laws are slow to change? The religious lobby and the MADD groups. (They think expanded hours will increase drunk driving). The retail and gas stations. (Cold high point beer at liquor stores would undercut cold beer sales as grocery and gas stations). Now of course, the liquor retailers don't want wine and liquor sold at wal-mart. Can you blame them? But they don't have enough influence to prevent it. The prevention again is driven from religious groups, and Anti-drinking/drunk driving groups. BoulderSooner 05-15-2013, 11:46 AM The liquor stores would be fine with bottle openers. They'd also like refrigeration. There are plenty of laws they wouldn't mind seeing changed. Trust me, as someone who owned a shop until a few years ago, there's not some all powerful liquor lobby. You want to know why liquor laws are slow to change? The religious lobby and the MADD groups. (They think expanded hours will increase drunk driving). The retail and gas stations. (Cold high point beer at liquor stores would undercut cold beer sales as grocery and gas stations). Now of course, the liquor retailers don't want wine and liquor sold at wal-mart. Can you blame them? But they don't have enough influence to prevent it. The prevention again is driven from religious groups, and Anti-drinking/drunk driving groups. the lobby as a whole doesn't want the expense of refrigeration ... the big players do the small ones don't GaryOKC6 05-15-2013, 11:47 AM Does anybody think anything has a high-flying chance of getting on the ballot for the 2014 midterm elections? Even if it did, could anything liberalizing the alcohol laws pass? There is a large group of voters in this state that believes alcohol consumption is sin and will be out in force against any amendment that loosens the restrictions. More hypocrisy from the party of small government and individual liberty in telling fully grown adults they cannot buy full strength beer because an interpretation of the Bible that didn't exist until the late 19th century in America says its a sin. At the very least, allow liquor stores to stay open past 9PM and allow them to sell beer cold. Why wouldn't that be an acceptable compromise? Well, no one thought that liquor by the drink and gambling would pass in Oklahoma but it did. I think the liquor stores are the only opponents that I have run across for this issue. They will spend a ton of money to fight it but at the end of the day I predict the strong beer and wine in stores will pass overwhelmingly. jerrywall 05-15-2013, 11:55 AM the lobby as a whole doesn't want the expense of refrigeration ... the big players do the small ones don't You're basing this on what? And you keep talking about lobby... the only stores that could have any real influence (Byrons, Pancho's) would support it. The small ones that you say don't want the expense don't spend any time or money lobbying. There's a retail association with like 25 members, but they have no influence. People act like there's some all powerful "lobby". Remember, every single liquor store in Oklahoma is family owned. There are no chains, no corporations. No one can own more than one store. They're not organized, and as a whole they don't/can't cooperate with each other. The aforementioned association is only a few years old, and their only focus right now is wine in grocery stores. The grocery lobby/oil and gas lobby in oklahoma on the other hand is much more powerful, and can you imagine how their beer sales would tank if folks could get cold beer at liquor stores? onthestrip 05-15-2013, 12:00 PM Funny how its a sin yet Jesus turned water into wine. I think it could be done to please most folks. Allow grocery stores to sell wine and refrigerated high point beer (no liquor), 7 days a week. Allow liquor stores to sell refrigerated high point beer as well as other items like mixers, bottle openers, ice, hell even cigarettes if they want (all like Colorado). This allows liquor stores to make up some of what they might lose to grocery stores in wine and high point beer sales. The argument that more people kids and drunk drivers will buy alcohol if this is allowed is a joke. onthestrip 05-15-2013, 12:03 PM You're basing this on what? And you keep talking about lobby... the only stores that could have any real influence (Byrons, Pancho's) would support it. The small ones that you say don't want the expense don't spend any time or money lobbying. There's a retail association with like 25 members, but they have no influence. People act like there's some all powerful "lobby". Remember, every single liquor store in Oklahoma is family owned. There are no chains, no corporations. No one can own more than one store. They're not organized, and as a whole they don't/can't cooperate with each other. The aforementioned association is only a few years old, and their only focus right now is wine in grocery stores. The grocery lobby/oil and gas lobby in oklahoma on the other hand is much more powerful, and can you imagine how their beer sales would tank if folks could get cold beer at liquor stores? What about the few liquor wholesalers in this state? I think they are against any change because they fear they might lose their grip on an easy and non-competitive industry. GaryOKC6 05-15-2013, 12:03 PM Actually if I could buy strong beer at the grocery stores they would get more business from me. I drink at restaurants and bars. I have not been in a liquor store in years. I stop in convenience stores when I am in Texas to buy stronger Bud light though. Hopefully i can buy my strong beer at my local grocery store or convenience store in the near future though. jerrywall 05-15-2013, 12:14 PM What about the few liquor wholesalers in this state? I think they are against any change because they fear they might lose their grip on an easy and non-competitive industry. Oh sure, they might oppose grocery sales. But they sure wouldn't oppose expanded hours, or cold beer. Those would only increase their profits. jerrywall 05-15-2013, 12:16 PM Actually, I'm not sure they'd oppose grocery sales. If it's done like most states that have a tiered brokerage system like ours, the grocery stores would still have to purchase through distributors. Dubya61 05-15-2013, 12:19 PM ... There is a large group of voters in this state that believes alcohol consumption is sin ... I don't think so. Maybe vocal, but not large. Jethro, Geraldo, Creflow AND James (maybe even Sayid) probably still support the man of the cloth while enjoying an adult beverage. But of course, the Bible says a drop of alcohol to the tongue is sin according to the people fighting to keep these antiquated laws on the books. I don't think the Bible has this text in any sort of format or translation and of there are those that say so, while religion may be their talking points, it certainly isn't their motivation. Funny how its a sin yet Jesus turned water into wine. ... Right, it's not a sin. Intoxication (and not being in control of yourself) is the flaw, in my humble opinion. RadicalModerate 05-15-2013, 12:34 PM Somehow, this thread has drifted into Old Joke Territory: (channelling andy rooney) Have you ever noticed how Jews don't recognize Jesus as The Son of God . . . Protestants don't recognize the Pope . . . Unitarians don't recognize The Trinity . . . and Baptists don't recognize each other in the liquor store? bchris02 05-15-2013, 12:53 PM I agree with the above posters who pointed out that there isn't an all-powerful liquor lobby in Oklahoma preventing the laws from being changed. The reason the antiquated laws are still on the books is religious fundamentalists and MADD groups. I also think the state still has a ways to go before modernization has a chance of passing by statewide vote. A poll taken in 2011 showed a majority of Oklahomans opposed changing the laws. OKC and Tulsa are also not liberal enough to cancel out the vote of rural Oklahoma that would more than likely overwhelmingly vote against any kind of modernization. Poll finds voters overwhelmingly oppose liquor law changes | SoonerPoll | Oklahoma?s public opinion pollster (http://soonerpoll.com/poll-finds-voters-overwhelmingly-oppose-liquor-law-changes/) I remember my first weekend living here I went to Walmart to buy some beer (3.2 mind you) and an older man in the checkout line told me I shouldn't be drinking because it was a sin and it kills. I had never had that happen anywhere else and it goes to show how ingrained teetotalism still is in the culture here and they think its their mission to enforce their views. okcboomer 05-15-2013, 12:56 PM Why do we have these restrictions at all? It's not the liquor that drives drunk and kills people. RadicalModerate 05-15-2013, 01:08 PM Why do we have these restrictions at all? It's not the liquor that drives drunk and kills people. Obviously. And The (obvious) Solution to The Problem would be to federally mandate Three-Packs rather than Six-Packs. Dubya61 05-15-2013, 01:22 PM I agree with the above posters who pointed out that there isn't an all-powerful liquor lobby in Oklahoma preventing the laws from being changed. The reason the antiquated laws are still on the books is religious fundamentalists and MADD groups. I also think the state still has a ways to go before modernization has a chance of passing by statewide vote. A poll taken in 2011 showed a majority of Oklahomans opposed changing the laws. OKC and Tulsa are also not liberal enough to cancel out the vote of rural Oklahoma that would more than likely overwhelmingly vote against any kind of modernization. Poll finds voters overwhelmingly oppose liquor law changes | SoonerPoll | Oklahoma?s public opinion pollster (http://soonerpoll.com/poll-finds-voters-overwhelmingly-oppose-liquor-law-changes/) I remember my first weekend living here I went to Walmart to buy some beer (3.2 mind you) and an older man in the checkout line told me I shouldn't be drinking because it was a sin and it kills. I had never had that happen anywhere else and it goes to show how ingrained teetotalism still is in the culture here and they think its their mission to enforce their views. I think that if those who wish to see a change to Oklahoma liquor laws were to run a decent campaign, complete with (what could easily be pre-planned) response ads (to what you and many seem to think are the inevitable fundamentalist/MADD/etc. opponent ads) to educate the voters about how stupid our liquor laws are now and how simple and responsible liquor laws could improve the economic landscape and how it has NOTHING to do with religion or drunk driving, there could be a change. That poll (and the headline) could easily be summarized with, "Poll finds voters ... oppose ... changes." Except for your experience at Walmart, I doubt you'd find any credible opposition to alcohol consumption in the state that you can't already label as a lunatic fringe. Now we can commence the countdown to all the remarks about how horrible and backwards Oklahoma is, especially in the rural areas outside of OKC and Tulsa where they also want to restrict water rights in OKC. Whatever. Haters gonna hate ... Me, I love Oklahoma. RadicalModerate 05-15-2013, 01:40 PM I agree with the above posters who pointed out that there isn't an all-powerful liquor lobby in Oklahoma preventing the laws from being changed. Yes. There is: The Oklahoma Liquor Distribution Cartel.(and their tentacles run deep. holding lots of money) I remember my first weekend living here I went to Walmart to buy some beer (3.2 mind you) and an older man in the checkout line told me I shouldn't be drinking because it was a sin and it kills. So how come you didn't look him straight in the eye, smile and say "So is being a judgmental schmuck . . . Sir. And thanks for being a joy-killer. What excuse for a 'church' are you a member of?" (i'm over 60, perhaps with a bit more life experience. i would NEVER go to Walmart for anything. especially not for "space invasion" by some self-righteous prick in the checkout lane. =) bchris02 05-15-2013, 02:03 PM I think first we need to get the issue on the ballot. It's been tried numerous times and failed. Once its on the ballot, there needs to be a major campaign to inform the public as to why we need to change the laws and the benefits it will bring. We also need to dispel the myths we know every Baptist preacher will espouse from the pulpet persuading their flock to vote against the changes. If 63% of Oklahomans are teetotalers (I don't think its that high) they must be informed otherwise they will simply vote with the mindset of less restrictive laws = more drunks and vote against changes. Dubya61 05-15-2013, 02:10 PM ... we know every Baptist preacher will espouse from the pulpet persuading their flock to vote against the changes. ... I don't see it, but maybe that's something that comes with age -- ignoring those things that would bother me. Honestly Oklahoma isn't some watered down version of Westboro Baptist Church -- even in those horrible rural areas. Quit watching Footloose and thinking it's a documentary. bchris02 05-15-2013, 02:18 PM I don't see it, but maybe that's something that comes with age -- ignoring those things that would bother me. Honestly Oklahoma isn't some watered down version of Westboro Baptist Church -- even in those horrible rural areas. Quit watching Footloose and thinking it's a documentary. I have family that live in rural Arkansas in a dry county. It's also illegal to dance in that town (no kidding) so the high school has to hold their prom in the neighboring county. Anytime the question comes up of making it a wet county, you would think by the uproar they were talking about legalizing marijuana. I am pretty familiar with rural, fundamentalist culture and they would overwhelmingly vote against changes in the liquor laws unless they were given a reason not to. Maybe there could be some kind of provision allowing there to be dry counties in Oklahoma, providing 3.2 beer is done away with, in order to gain rural support. RadicalModerate 05-15-2013, 02:53 PM I think first we need to get the issue on the ballot. It's been tried numerous times and failed. I seem to recall that a few years ago, some modification of the liquor laws actually passed by a vote of "the people". I seem to recall that not long after that, one or more of those Distribution Cartel tentacles somehow managed to convince some judge that the modification was unconstitutional and so the change disappeared into the history of failed democracy in action. ps: was "Henryetta" the setting for "Footloose"? i also recall one sunday afternoon on the way back from a canoe trip over in arkansas we stopped at a convenience store next to the interstate at the Henryetta exit and were told we could buy gasoline but not a six-pack of beer on account of it was sunday. we were too shocked and baffled to argue. still . . . i have to wonder . . . how in the hell do you enforce a law against "dancing"? geez . . . i'd guess that a whole bunch of holy rollers would be all up Their face(s) over an abomination like that. unless, of course, it was that nekkid, OT, David type dancin' when he got the Ark back from the Phillistines. that would be OK. Even the Imams agree on that one. jerrywall 05-15-2013, 02:57 PM I seem to recall that a few years ago, some modification of the liquor laws actually passed by a vote of "the people". I seem to recall that not long after that, one or more of those Distribution Cartel tentacles somehow managed to convince some judge that the modification was unconstitutional and so the change disappeared into the history of failed democracy in action. Do you remember what is was? Was it about the wine being sold directly to the stores, or something else? There actually have been quite a few changes to the liquor laws in the past few years, and more are coming up on the ballots. But, from what I understand, state questions can only address a single issue (constitutionally) and there's a limit to how many they can push in a year. The next two changes I expect we'll see will be wine tasting in liquor stores, and the ability for parents to bring the minor child in the store with them. RadicalModerate 05-15-2013, 03:12 PM It had something to do with wine distribution that somehow "favored" local "vineyards" over other producers and therefore caused some sort of spastic tremor among the members of The Distribution Cartel (a movement that is illegal in Henryetta on sundays . . . or maybe anytime . . . on account of it could be confused with dancing.) Oklahoma Wine is OK. Better Wine is available. Except not at grocery stores although it is a food product. (much like beer is liquid bread if you think about it. =) I'll say it one more time: Oklahoma needs to "borrow" either The Missouri Model or The Wisconsin Wisdom regarding the entire scheme of things. That way The Solons (did i spell that correctly?) taking up space in the capitol building don't have to waste their creative skills on crafting a new wheel. (but that has about as much chance of happening as winning the lottery . . . or having a proper Boulevard approved. =) jerrywall 05-15-2013, 03:15 PM Yeah, that's the one I was thinking. It was that local wineries could sell directly to the stores, while out of state wineries had to sell to distributors (who added markup), which theoretically gave those Oklahoma wineries an advantage (although considering how expensive they all are, that advantage never showed). bchris02 05-15-2013, 03:39 PM As much as I would like to see Oklahoma adopt the Missouri or Wisconsin laws, I think those laws are too liberal to get passed here. The Arkansas model is more likely to work in Oklahoma in my opinion as it has some perks for the religious fundamentalists while not being overly restrictive on the consumer at the state level. That model is this. -Do away with 3.2 beer entirely -Allow on-premise sales 7 days per week 7AM-2AM -Allow beer and wine in grocery stores and convenience stores six days per week; sales prohibited on Sunday -Hard liquor must be sold in package stores which can be open six days per week 9AM-2AM; Closed Sundays; Beer can be sold refrigerated -Individual counties and municipalities can enact stricter laws by a vote of the people up to and including being completely dry RadicalModerate 05-15-2013, 03:41 PM Never use the word "liberal". Always choose, instead, the word "rational" . . . Then, Just Do It. =) Bunty 05-15-2013, 04:12 PM It was interesting how voting for liquour by the drink went in Oklahoma in 1984. It barely passed by 52% to 48%. 60 of the 77 counties voted against it. The losing margin there was more than offset by the combined margin of victory totaling nearly 88,000 votes from Tulsa and Oklahoma Counties. Tulsa County went for it by 68%. Bunty 05-15-2013, 04:15 PM As much as I would like to see Oklahoma adopt the Missouri or Wisconsin laws, I think those laws are too liberal to get passed here. The Arkansas model is more likely to work in Oklahoma in my opinion as it has some perks for the religious fundamentalists while not being overly restrictive on the consumer at the state level. That model is this. -Do away with 3.2 beer entirely -Allow on-premise sales 7 days per week 7AM-2AM -Allow beer and wine in grocery stores and convenience stores six days per week; sales prohibited on Sunday -Hard liquor must be sold in package stores which can be open six days per week 9AM-2AM; Closed Sundays; Beer can be sold refrigerated -Individual counties and municipalities can enact stricter laws by a vote of the people up to and including being completely dry The final one would create too much confusion. I bet no more than a dozen of the most remote and sparsely populated counties in Oklahoma want to be bone dry. Why worry about pleasing them? bchris02 05-15-2013, 04:25 PM The final one would create too much confusion. I bet no more than a dozen of the most remote and sparsely populated counties in Oklahoma want to be bone dry. Why worry about pleasing them? To get votes. Even if only a few counties voted themselves dry, knowing they have that option could get the fundamentalists on board. In this state, their vote will be needed to get change passed. bhawes 05-15-2013, 04:53 PM I been living in Oklahoma City over 17 years. Im from South Carolina and in SC yon can't even buy beer or any liquor on Sunday. It a stupid Red state thing. RadicalModerate 05-15-2013, 05:04 PM I been living in Oklahoma City over 17 years. Im from South Carolina and in SC yon can't even buy beer or any liquor on Sunday. It a stupid Red state thing. I'd guess that you could appreciate the irony of Blue Laws being enforced in "stupid" Red States except for the admission that you are from South Carolina (next to Arkansas, the [ . . . . . . . -est] state in the so-called "union". =) So how come--over the last couple/three hundred years--South Carolina Churches haven't banded together to provide Bingo and a Beer in the Basement after "church" on Sunday. And after "closing-time" Mon. thru Sat. In the name of Freedom of Religion? Running out all the native inhabitants and firing on Fort Sumner . . . dang. No alchohol needs to be added to THAT mix . . . (just kidding. 17 years here, you are an official Okie. =) Bunty 05-15-2013, 09:30 PM I think first we need to get the issue on the ballot. It's been tried numerous times and failed. Once its on the ballot, there needs to be a major campaign to inform the public as to why we need to change the laws and the benefits it will bring. We also need to dispel the myths we know every Baptist preacher will espouse from the pulpet persuading their flock to vote against the changes. If 63% of Oklahomans are teetotalers (I don't think its that high) they must be informed otherwise they will simply vote with the mindset of less restrictive laws = more drunks and vote against changes. Because the number of signatures required are so huge without much time allowed to get them, it's hard to get a voter initiative on a statewide ballot via petition, unless your organization has plenty of money to pay signature takers. At least one group wants to get a petition going in time for the 2014 election to allow grocery stores to sell wine in the 15 most populated counties. That might be acceptable to alcohol opponents in the smaller counties. Bunty 05-15-2013, 09:40 PM I have family that live in rural Arkansas in a dry county. It's also illegal to dance in that town (no kidding) so the high school has to hold their prom in the neighboring county. Anytime the question comes up of making it a wet county, you would think by the uproar they were talking about legalizing marijuana. I am pretty familiar with rural, fundamentalist culture and they would overwhelmingly vote against changes in the liquor laws unless they were given a reason not to. Maybe there could be some kind of provision allowing there to be dry counties in Oklahoma, providing 3.2 beer is done away with, in order to gain rural support. That's another reason why I'm against changing things to allow counties to go totally dry. Oklahoma certainly doesn't need another reason to look backward before the more civilized states and the rest of the world. With Oklahoma City and Tulsa along with most of other top 10, or so, populated towns that can probably be depended on to change alcohol laws, I don't think we need to worry about cooperation from the sparsely settled, backward counties. They didn't keep us from changing the law in 2007 so that liquor stores could be open on election day. bchris02 05-15-2013, 09:46 PM That's another reason why I'm against changing things to allow counties to go totally dry. Oklahoma certainly doesn't need another reason to look backward before the more civilized states and the rest of the world. With Oklahoma City and Tulsa along with most of other top 10 populated towns or so that can probably be depended on to change alcohol laws, I don't think we need to worry about cooperation from the sparsely settled, backward counties. As I've said, I am not sure OKC and Tulsa are liberal enough to cancel out the votes of the rural counties. If this is to pass, it will likely be similar to liquor-by-the-drink in 1984, by a razor thin margin, and that is if people supporting changing the laws are mobilized and making sure voters are informed about what they are actually voting for and not what their pastors will tell them they are voting for. Allowing dry counties and keeping the restriction on Sunday sales is simply a way of compromising with the fundamentalists so that this has a sure chance of passing. I would hate for it to get on the ballot and then not pass. As for dry counties making the state look backward, the current laws are far worse than a few remote counties voting to ban alcohol sales in their county. Bunty 05-15-2013, 09:56 PM I been living in Oklahoma City over 17 years. Im from South Carolina and in SC yon can't even buy beer or any liquor on Sunday. It a stupid Red state thing. It's probably just plain, darn apathy among voters feeling there's no need to repeal any prohibitive alcohol laws, even if they are based on nonsense. For instance, Payne County had to wait as long as 15-20 years before it was decided it was finally time to try voting once again to allow liquor by the drink on Sundays. And then it only happened because a lawyer, who was also the state rep, went before the County Commission requesting such an election be held, because one reason why a prospective client did not want to rent his downtown property as a restaurant was due to liquor by the drink banned on Sunday. It passed last Nov. Bunty 05-15-2013, 10:13 PM As I've said, I am not sure OKC and Tulsa are liberal enough to cancel out the votes of the rural counties. If this is to pass, it will likely be similar to liquor-by-the-drink in 1984, by a razor thin margin, and that is if people supporting changing the laws are mobilized and making sure voters are informed about what they are actually voting for and not what their pastors will tell them they are voting for. Allowing dry counties and keeping the restriction on Sunday sales is simply a way of compromising with the fundamentalists so that this has a sure chance of passing. I would hate for it to get on the ballot and then not pass. As for dry counties making the state look backward, the current laws are far worse than a few remote counties voting to ban alcohol sales in their county. I bet quite a few of those counties that didn't approve liquor by the drink in 1984 have all together lost thousands of people since then. If I'm right, Oklahoma has been wet everywhere as far as allowing liquor stores to open ever since prohibition was repealed in 1959. True, there are still a number of counties, only around 27 of them, that don't allow liquor by the drink. I think 3.2% beer has been legal to buy everywhere in Oklahoma for many decades. So I just don't like the idea of trying to make Oklahoma find a way to go backward with its alcohol laws in any way. bluedogok 05-15-2013, 11:15 PM The final one would create too much confusion. I bet no more than a dozen of the most remote and sparsely populated counties in Oklahoma want to be bone dry. Why worry about pleasing them? That would be how Dallas County was until recently, they were wet/dry by voting precinct. That was why you had 6 liquor stores at Greenville south of Royal Lane and in the tiny town of Buckingham between Dallas and Richardson. The dry areas only had "private club sales" almost as ridiculous as the old "liquor by the wink" that Oklahoma had until 1984. A few years ago Boston, Massachusetts still had beer/wine/liquor sales in package stores only, nothing in grocery/convenience stores. There are also still "dry counties" in Texas and Colorado still has 3.2 beer and limits a store owner or corporation to one liquor license in the state. Trader Joe's will have one store in Denver selling 2 Buck Chuck and other wines, beer or liquor, all other stores are limited to 3.2 beer/malt beverages. They still don't have the 10 year residency requirement to apply for a retail liquor license like Oklahoma. Kentucky and Indiana have liquor in almost any store (like Walgreen's/Rite-Aid) and they aren't exactly "liberal" meccas. The politics makes strange bedfellows concept is very common in the liquor politics since you have such wide ranging groups that seek to control liquor sales working together to kill any meaningful change in the laws. I do remember when liquor stores in Oklahoma were open until 10:00 PM, that changed in the early 80's. bchris02 05-16-2013, 01:52 PM Kentucky and Indiana aren't liberal states but they are liberal compared to Oklahoma. This isn't a scientific study or anything, but among people I know, I've met far more anti-alcohol people here among the church-going crowd than other places l've lived. I was surprised when I moved out to the east coast how much looser their attitudes towards alcohol were. Even people in the Southern Baptist churches were alright with moderate drinking. This was in North Carolina too, not the northeast. The culture in Oklahoma is very different than much of the country and alcohol is one of those things still considered very taboo among the church-going. Bunty 05-16-2013, 02:18 PM Kentucky and Indiana aren't liberal states but they are liberal compared to Oklahoma. This isn't a scientific study or anything, but among people I know, I've met far more anti-alcohol people here among the church-going crowd than other places l've lived. I was surprised when I moved out to the east coast how much looser their attitudes towards alcohol were. Even people in the Southern Baptist churches were alright with moderate drinking. This was in North Carolina too, not the northeast. The culture in Oklahoma is very different than much of the country and alcohol is one of those things still considered very taboo among the church-going. It surely helps explains why there are so few bars in Oklahoma, especially in small towns. And so many are such dives. The culture and socializing in Oklahoma is so much more geared toward churches, not bars. In other parts of the country, like the NE, I bet the bars rival the churches for socializing. Bunty 05-16-2013, 02:37 PM As much as I would like to see Oklahoma adopt the Missouri or Wisconsin laws, I think those laws are too liberal to get passed here. From wiki, a summary of what Missouri's state alcohol laws are like: Missouri's lax alcohol laws compared to other states include: Blanket liquor laws without regard to alcohol percentage; Legalized public intoxication, which localities cannot override; No statewide prohibition on drinking in public, though nearly every municipality prohibits this on its own; No statewide vehicle open container law, allowing passengers in motor vehicles (but not drivers) to consume alcohol openly, though 31 localities do have local vehicle open container laws; No limitations on the types of locations that can sell liquor off-premises, allowing even drug stores and gas stations to sell hard liquor; No blue laws besides slightly fewer hours for off-premises sales on Sundays and separate on-premises Sunday licenses; 3:00 AM bar closing hours in St. Louis, Kansas City, and their surrounding areas; Legalized interstate shipments of less than five gallons of any lawfully-manufactured alcohol except wine; Forbidding a local option, prohibiting counties and cities from banning the retail sale of liquor; Permitting open containers on the street in the Power & Light District in Downtown Kansas City and Westport Kansas City; Allowing residents over 21 to manufacture up to 100 gallons of any alcohol for personal use each year without any state limitation, license, or taxation; and Allowing parents and guardians to give alcohol to their children, though not to the level of neglect or abuse Missouri is rated #3 for states with the most alcohol freedom. jerrywall 05-16-2013, 02:56 PM From wiki, a summary of what Missouri's state alcohol laws are like: Missouri's lax alcohol laws compared to other states include: Blanket liquor laws without regard to alcohol percentage; Legalized public intoxication, which localities cannot override; No statewide prohibition on drinking in public, though nearly every municipality prohibits this on its own; No statewide vehicle open container law, allowing passengers in motor vehicles (but not drivers) to consume alcohol openly, though 31 localities do have local vehicle open container laws; No limitations on the types of locations that can sell liquor off-premises, allowing even drug stores and gas stations to sell hard liquor; No blue laws besides slightly fewer hours for off-premises sales on Sundays and separate on-premises Sunday licenses; 3:00 AM bar closing hours in St. Louis, Kansas City, and their surrounding areas; Legalized interstate shipments of less than five gallons of any lawfully-manufactured alcohol except wine; Forbidding a local option, prohibiting counties and cities from banning the retail sale of liquor; Permitting open containers on the street in the Power & Light District in Downtown Kansas City and Westport Kansas City; Allowing residents over 21 to manufacture up to 100 gallons of any alcohol for personal use each year without any state limitation, license, or taxation; and Allowing parents and guardians to give alcohol to their children, though not to the level of neglect or abuse Missouri is rated #3 for states with the most alcohol freedom. That is unbelievable. What are the number #1 and #2 states like? bchris02 05-16-2013, 03:24 PM It surely helps explains why there are so few bars in Oklahoma, especially in small towns. And so many are such dives. The culture and socializing in Oklahoma is so much more geared toward churches, not bars. In other parts of the country, like the NE, I bet the bars rival the churches for socializing. That also helps to explain why so many of the more trendy type places in OKC tend to be bar/restaurant rather than pure bars. RadicalModerate 05-16-2013, 04:03 PM Okay . . . Let's revamp Oklahoma's Liquor Laws and call the revampization "The OK Missouri Compromise." Or, perhaps . . . "The Libationary Libertarianism Act" . . ? ps: the Number One and Number Two States appear to be Nevada and Lousiana. bluedogok 05-16-2013, 09:40 PM Kentucky and Indiana aren't liberal states but they are liberal compared to Oklahoma. This isn't a scientific study or anything, but among people I know, I've met far more anti-alcohol people here among the church-going crowd than other places l've lived. I was surprised when I moved out to the east coast how much looser their attitudes towards alcohol were. Even people in the Southern Baptist churches were alright with moderate drinking. This was in North Carolina too, not the northeast. The culture in Oklahoma is very different than much of the country and alcohol is one of those things still considered very taboo among the church-going. Oh I know they are different in many areas when it comes to religion but I can guarantee you there isn't that much of a difference between a small town Southern Baptist in Kentucky than there is in Oklahoma. There are churches in Oklahoma that don't have the same view of alcohol as most of the Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, etc. churches, it's just some of the more conservative ones squawk the loudest. I just remember how ridiculous the liquor laws were in Dallas County when I lived there. Years ago Virginia had much more restrictive laws, you could only buy from state distribution stores and they had a list of what they had, no bottles to browse. I agree that Oklahoma has some bad liquor laws but then most places have some quirky ones to deal with and I don't think they have the worst laws in the nation. The ironic thing was the 3.2 beer was an effort to get around prohibition, it has just hung around forever due to lobbying efforts of those who benefit from the product. okcpulse 05-17-2013, 11:38 AM Minnesota is a blue state and they don't allow alcohol to be sold on Sundays. Bunty 05-17-2013, 05:49 PM Minnesota is a blue state and they don't allow alcohol to be sold on Sundays. Yeah, that's ironic. Like Oklahoma, it has 3.2% beer that can be sold in grocery stores. Bunty 05-17-2013, 05:52 PM I agree that Oklahoma has some bad liquor laws but then most places have some quirky ones to deal with and I don't think they have the worst laws in the nation. The ironic thing was the 3.2 beer was an effort to get around prohibition, it has just hung around forever due to lobbying efforts of those who benefit from the product. Who is going to lose money by allowing beer to be sold refrigerated in liquor stores? Mainly convenience stores? jerrywall 05-17-2013, 06:53 PM Who is going to lose money by allowing beer to be sold refrigerated in liquor stores? Mainly convenience stores? Yup. 7-11 absolutely doesn't want cold beer in liquor stores. And while there may not be an all powerful liquor lobby in Oklahoma.... oil and gas on the other hand? bluedogok 05-17-2013, 09:34 PM I know in Colorado and I am pretty sure it is about the same in Oklahoma that the licensing to sell 3.2 is a fraction of the cost and the rules about how close you can be to schools, churches, etc. are significantly different. I think there may also be additional taxes paid on alcohol that a store selling 3.2 wouldn't have to remit to the state which adds additional cost to a store owner. Oil and gas companies could care less, the station operators (some are independent operators but many are owned by station operating companies like a 7-11) are a different story. Bunty 05-19-2013, 02:44 PM I hope they will promote places to go to sign this petition. They appear to think it's smarter to put the question on the Nov. 2014 ballot, rather than Nov. 2013. Oklahoma Grocery Store Wine Proposal Being Renewed - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/22292608/oklahoma-grocery-store-wine-proposal-being-renewed) jerrywall 05-19-2013, 09:21 PM I hope they will promote places to go to sign this petition. They appear to think it's smarter to put the question on the Nov. 2014 ballot, rather than Nov. 2013. Oklahoma Grocery Store Wine Proposal Being Renewed - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/22292608/oklahoma-grocery-store-wine-proposal-being-renewed) God, I hope not. It's a terrible proposal. It favors big, out of state grocery (like costco) freezes out smaller, in state grocery, and totally ignores convenience stores. The group behind it has no interested in "modernizing" anything. This would just create even more terrible and convoluted liquor laws, and put into place more protectionist than there currently is. We deserve real modernization, not this crap. kevinpate 05-19-2013, 09:39 PM uh, Bunty ... Nov. 2013 ballot? Huh? |