I don't know that I would go so far as to say its being hashed out on a diverse community. In most situations, the residents surrounding the blighted structures are in favor of them being bulldozed. And they overwhelmingly support the multi-step plan I was describing because it's helping to revitalize some of the structures. People are doing renovations in areas that just don't ever see them. The GOOD owners are staying and trying. The crappy ones are being flushed out.....something OKC is just now starting to get momentum on.

I don't think I've seen the wrecking ball in DTW approach any of those architectural gems though. There's so much art deco there! We're speaking of almost exclusively homes and, to a great extent, those that are becoming structurally compromised and wouldn't be saved regardless of their branding. When a hole opens in a roof and moisture gets in for years and starts rotting it out, whether it's a gem or not, at some point the structure is a loss and is more hazardous as a barely standing structure than as a grass lot.

I would NEVER give any city carte blanche to do anything like this, so please don't confuse my support of their program as a green light to I M Pei their way through DTW. In no way would I EVER support a Pei plan. The focused and targeted efforts are something that make this different for me and the long list of qualifications that a structure has to meet before DTW starts trying to work on it. And keeping in mind that demo is the last resort. In Urban Renewal demo is the first action. It's just a different model.

These buildings don't just make up ownership. They make up community. You're missing the forest for the tree.

That's also highly inaccurate that the wrecking ball isn't going after gems. Depends what you call a gem, and the main problem here is that it isn't demo as a last resort. What's happening in Detroit is demo first.

Sorry, but you're just incorrect on your facts. What qualifies as a gem might be different for you and I, I'll give you that. But the second portion is simply not accurate in any way. DTW absolutely has not, does not, and will not simply come to a house and tear it down without following a process. I will grant that it might APPEAR this way to someone on the outside. It can appear that nothing is happening when you look at the front of the house, but you're also not aware of all of the legal and municipal actions taking place through city government. To say that the wrecking ball is step 1, is just simply not correct. And let me state again, that the city is not coming in and taking houses willy-nilly. By the time they get involved, a WHOLE LOT has happened behind the scenes. And that is usually after YEARS...not just because they want to.

bombermwc - I think you are missing what Spartan is saying. He isn't saying that the wrecking ball shows up with no paperwork, he is saying the demo process is the only option being pursued. There is no attempt to restore, retro-fit, or adapt buildings.

For example. No one is trying to save this house. The only option being employed is the demo process (even if it takes the 3 years from filing the paper work to creating a pile of rubble.) Now multiply that by 10,000 other examples.

http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/736x/28/f9/27/28f927fa4b415826ff5c9f6dccd20e94.jpg

Sorry, but you're just incorrect on your facts. What qualifies as a gem might be different for you and I, I'll give you that. But the second portion is simply not accurate in any way. DTW absolutely has not, does not, and will not simply come to a house and tear it down without following a process. I will grant that it might APPEAR this way to someone on the outside. It can appear that nothing is happening when you look at the front of the house, but you're also not aware of all of the legal and municipal actions taking place through city government. To say that the wrecking ball is step 1, is just simply not correct. And let me state again, that the city is not coming in and taking houses willy-nilly. By the time they get involved, a WHOLE LOT has happened behind the scenes. And that is usually after YEARS...not just because they want to.

The process is for demolition, not preservation. The city of Detroit does not have a preservation program. I don't think you understand what is happening in either Detroit or its more successful rust belt counterparts. I am curious how you are involved with Detroit or where your perspective is coming from?

I'm trying to neither laugh nor feel insulted when you of all people, in this thread of all threads, tell me that I'm wrong. Not just that you disagree and here's what you read that made you disagree with me, etc.

bombermwc - I think you are missing what Spartan is saying. He isn't saying that the wrecking ball shows up with no paperwork, he is saying the demo process is the only option being pursued. There is no attempt to restore, retro-fit, or adapt buildings.

For example. No one is trying to save this house. The only option being employed is the demo process (even if it takes the 3 years from filing the paper work to creating a pile of rubble.) Now multiply that by 10,000 other examples.

http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/736x/28/f9/27/28f927fa4b415826ff5c9f6dccd20e94.jpgWow, that truly is sad. If Detroit really is going to go this route, then new urbanism is probably the way to go for them.

Any way that the market could go would be great for them honestly. Problem is there is NO market left.

This Really shows you how fast the decline is getting:
http://m.fastcoexist.com/3031637/watch-detroits-rapid-collapse-in-these-side-by-side-street-view-images

Actually again, you're wrong. They do have a preservation effort and if you're not aware of it then you aren't really watching the efforts from DTW very well. In fact there's an entire city department focused on Historic Preservation that's been around since the 70's. Just like in OKC, things have to be declared as historic before they get protected....as it should be. Just because something was built during a certain period, does not dictate that it should be preserved as historic. Are they going to protect everything? Nope. Are some things going to slip through? Yup. But that doesn't negate all of their efforts as non-existent either. Although I'm sure every joe out there thinks they can do better....with no money too.

JTF - your example above is NOT the common example. It's easy to pick out a google image and claim it as the norm, but it's simply not the case. For every case where you have a small building like that, there are a hundred collapsing homes. And you realize a similar structure in Tulsa was torn down with little complaint as part of the I-44 expansion. Yes, it was a hotel instead of an apartment building. But in both instances, it's a metal structure with a stone castle themed façade.

Actually again, you're wrong. They do have a preservation effort and if you're not aware of it then you aren't really watching the efforts from DTW very well. In fact there's an entire city department focused on Historic Preservation that's been around since the 70's. Just like in OKC, things have to be declared as historic before they get protected....as it should be. Just because something was built during a certain period, does not dictate that it should be preserved as historic. Are they going to protect everything? Nope. Are some things going to slip through? Yup. But that doesn't negate all of their efforts as non-existent either. Although I'm sure every joe out there thinks they can do better....with no money too.

JTF - your example above is NOT the common example. It's easy to pick out a google image and claim it as the norm, but it's simply not the case. For every case where you have a small building like that, there are a hundred collapsing homes. And you realize a similar structure in Tulsa was torn down with little complaint as part of the I-44 expansion. Yes, it was a hotel instead of an apartment building. But in both instances, it's a metal structure with a stone castle themed façade.

A whole department? I think you mean their advisory board? Which is really hilarious given what the leadership of Preservation Detroit (formerly Preservation Wayne) told me earlier this month.

I think it's become official that you're talking out of your ass like usual. You still haven't answered my question bc I am curious if you have ever been to Detroit.

In case anyone wants to understand the mechanics of White Flight (/Sprawl) a bit better and why it affected particularly the rust best cities so heavily (Detroit being an extreme case with more than just sprawl factors, obviously) here is just an unbelievably fantastic article (albeit uber long, even if it's worth the read) that will give some good information and reasoning behind what occurred: The Case for Reparations - The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/)

Also, as I've read the thread, many of you who are trying to blame things other than sprawl are equivocating on the definition of sprawl. As rich as the MSA is, you could argue by definition that sprawl is 100% of the reason: If all that money stays in Detroit proper, the problems are vastly different. Obviously it's not, and it's complicated (as the article above states), but don't dismiss how severe sprawl (and more importantly the reasons behind sprawl) affect the socio-economic climate of American cities.

As for OKC…we are undoubtedly more diverse than the 80s, but that doesn't mean we can't continue to diversify even more. The two major industries I think we could really boost outside of Aviation/Government and Energy are 1. Medical and 2. Technology.

And it's not like we need to balance our portfolio of Fortune 500 companies with Medical/Energy, but we could stand to use several strong Fortune 1000 type companies in both those sectors. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Banking/Finance sector in OKC is as strong as it has ever been and growing at a healthy clip.

Yet again, you're taking my words and putting them to the way you want them Spartan. And I think you just identified the very definition of your comments...out of your ass.

Being able to tell you about DTW does not require boots on the ground either. I've got something better, friends that live there and all over Michigan. It's far better than someone from OKC going there for a conference or a trip, and then spouting things to make people thing that they are all of a sudden an expert and know everything...at the ripe age of what, 25? I can get first-hand information from people there experiencing it every day. Not just a tourists perspective from what they were shown in a presentation.

BTW, no I wasn't talking about Preservation Detroit either. That's a non-profit. In OKC, guess what, most preservation efforts are driven by those outside of the city. Heritage Hills has maintained it's historic detail, not because of the city, but because of it's residents and their committee being committed to the process. Preservation ALWAYS starts with identifying an area either in danger or in need of protection. Protection comes in different forms. In HH's case, it was to ensure that historic detail was preserved. In DTW, it's to protect from demolition. There are quite a few groups in DTW that push this effort. Preservation Detroit is only one. The Detroit Historical Society is another small example. Some are museum based, some focus more on districts, some focus on individual structures. But they ALL work with the city, through the main channel of the city's department. And no, it's not just an advisory board either. That's only one aspect of it. So yet again, you've shown that you do not have a clue about what's going on there. Keep bringing it man, and i'll keep providing evidence to counter. Maybe you can upload the slide deck you saw in your presentation...cause I'm sure it told the whole story and all.

Preservation in OKC has a whole different feel. Pei helped show OKC how devastating to history renewal can be. And that's why you now find so many people focused on preservation. At the time of Pei, OKC was just seeing the first signs of it's age...the city was barely really 50 years old....an infant! Many of the suburbs in OKC are just not entering that same timeframe. MWC is a good example of that. Do you try to identify an area like The Original Mile as historic just to save everything in there because it's 60 years old now? Nope. But you identify certain structures as significant and you can build a district out of the area to create an identity for that neighborhood. It's much more difficult to do that now that it was 60 years ago. A neighborhood then meant a tight-knit community. Today it means a collection of homes with people that don't talk to their neighbors. It's sort of a sign of maturity of the city in how they approach the issue of old vs new. OKC's on to it's second generation of preservation. Compare that to some areas of older cities like Chicago. Some of those districts are on their 3rd or 4th wave of preservation/popularity/decline as populations float around the city.

Yet again, you're taking my words and putting them to the way you want them Spartan. And I think you just identified the very definition of your comments...out of your ass.

Being able to tell you about DTW does not require boots on the ground either. I've got something better, friends that live there and all over Michigan. It's far better than someone from OKC going there for a conference or a trip, and then spouting things to make people thing that they are all of a sudden an expert and know everything...at the ripe age of what, 25? I can get first-hand information from people there experiencing it every day. Not just a tourists perspective from what they were shown in a presentation.

BTW, no I wasn't talking about Preservation Detroit either. That's a non-profit. In OKC, guess what, most preservation efforts are driven by those outside of the city. Heritage Hills has maintained it's historic detail, not because of the city, but because of it's residents and their committee being committed to the process. Preservation ALWAYS starts with identifying an area either in danger or in need of protection. Protection comes in different forms. In HH's case, it was to ensure that historic detail was preserved. In DTW, it's to protect from demolition. There are quite a few groups in DTW that push this effort. Preservation Detroit is only one. The Detroit Historical Society is another small example. Some are museum based, some focus more on districts, some focus on individual structures. But they ALL work with the city, through the main channel of the city's department. And no, it's not just an advisory board either. That's only one aspect of it. So yet again, you've shown that you do not have a clue about what's going on there. Keep bringing it man, and i'll keep providing evidence to counter. Maybe you can upload the slide deck you saw in your presentation...cause I'm sure it told the whole story and all.

Preservation in OKC has a whole different feel. Pei helped show OKC how devastating to history renewal can be. And that's why you now find so many people focused on preservation. At the time of Pei, OKC was just seeing the first signs of it's age...the city was barely really 50 years old....an infant! Many of the suburbs in OKC are just not entering that same timeframe. MWC is a good example of that. Do you try to identify an area like The Original Mile as historic just to save everything in there because it's 60 years old now? Nope. But you identify certain structures as significant and you can build a district out of the area to create an identity for that neighborhood. It's much more difficult to do that now that it was 60 years ago. A neighborhood then meant a tight-knit community. Today it means a collection of homes with people that don't talk to their neighbors. It's sort of a sign of maturity of the city in how they approach the issue of old vs new. OKC's on to it's second generation of preservation. Compare that to some areas of older cities like Chicago. Some of those districts are on their 3rd or 4th wave of preservation/popularity/decline as populations float around the city.

Wow you're a complete moron, congratulations.

I just don't know where to even begin in refuting what you either believe or picked up from some friends. For a while I was reading your posts and got the impression you just got back from a VAPAC convention, but apparently I was giving you too much credit.

Try visiting the rust belt someday. We don't bite, but our winters do so come during the summer when it's beautiful. :)

Well there you go again Spartan. Anytime anyone has good data to refute your opinion, they're an idiot. Whew, I just remembered, oh yeah, I don't need your approval. And way to resort to name calling. Wanna stick your fingers in your ears and send a raspberry my way while you're at it?

I'll stick with the facts from the sources....you go ahead and stick to your opinion-based "facts". Give yourself a pat on the back for it while you're at it.

If nothing else, you've shown a complete misunderstanding of Detroit and the complex issues at hand. It's unique in it's problems and you won't find another city that has the same contributing factors for the length of time DTW does...40 years is a long time to create the problem. It's not going to be solved in 10. But go ahead and keep telling us how you're right and everyone involved in the daily process is wrong. I'm sure you're view of it from over 1000 miles away is better. And attending a conference here and there also makes you an expert....I should have realized that and just bowed to your judgment from the beginning.

What good data, other than my age? What facts from sources, other than heresay from your MI friends? What's is a raspberry?

I don't think you realize I don't live in OKC anymore.

To avoid an ongoing distraction of mudslinging, since we know this won't end until someone relinquishes to Mr All Knowing over there, lets talk about OKC again.....

In reference to OKC, we do have a somewhat more difficult problem on our hands here. In DTW, there isn't much reason to stay in there areas and there aren't enough people to fill the homes. But in OKC, we've got a central core decline problem. In the CBD, they're trying to counter the issue in a commercial area with C2S. But what about areas where things are more residential? And expanding out from the central core, really consider inside the 44 loop on the north side too. Again, we're seeing commercial redevelopment along 23rd, but what about areas like Military Park? What would be really helpful would be a way to help homeowners reinvest in their home with renovations and rehabilitation. There are SOOOO many homes in those areas that are suffering from neglect. That brings down the property value and the decline of the neighborhood begins. Why should only large mansions be the focus of preservation or if not preservation, just good upkeep? Drive up Blackwelder and compare Putnam Heights to the right, with Military Park on the left. Day and Night. Putnam has the benefit of its residents having the income to keep the historic properties in great condition. But what can OKC do to help those in lower income areas keep things from collapsing? It's beneficial to all involved. You keep the people in the homes and the neighborhood has a longer life.

So here's a thought...and it's not all the way thought-out, so don't pounce too hard. It's just an idea of something to do...or maybe spark other (and better) ideas.

How about set up some sort of line in the city budget as a low interest loan (well below what a bank would offer...think just to cover admin expenses) for rehab/renovation on a home older than 50 years. You could even plug that in with something like a tie to Habitat for Humanity so that the loan is paid through certain approved organizations for materials. HfH would definitely be a reduced cost items for things like a toilet, vanity, hardware, etc. Using those donated materials means you get a lot more bang for your buck than going to Lowe's for brand new stuff. It would be nice to help keep it as local as possible too. Partner with someone like H-I-S paints for those items, The Floor Store/Bryans/Whatever for those, keep the list going. The goal with that part of the deal would be that the home is reinvested in with local dollars supporting local companies for the local economy. These could be low amount loans with that type of program too. It's amazing what some paint can do...or one level up, fixing some sagging woodwork.

Thoughts?

To avoid an ongoing distraction of mudslinging, since we know this won't end until someone relinquishes to Mr All Knowing over there, lets talk about OKC again.....

In reference to OKC, we do have a somewhat more difficult problem on our hands here. In DTW, there isn't much reason to stay in there areas and there aren't enough people to fill the homes. But in OKC, we've got a central core decline problem. In the CBD, they're trying to counter the issue in a commercial area with C2S. But what about areas where things are more residential? And expanding out from the central core, really consider inside the 44 loop on the north side too. Again, we're seeing commercial redevelopment along 23rd, but what about areas like Military Park? What would be really helpful would be a way to help homeowners reinvest in their home with renovations and rehabilitation. There are SOOOO many homes in those areas that are suffering from neglect. That brings down the property value and the decline of the neighborhood begins. Why should only large mansions be the focus of preservation or if not preservation, just good upkeep? Drive up Blackwelder and compare Putnam Heights to the right, with Military Park on the left. Day and Night. Putnam has the benefit of its residents having the income to keep the historic properties in great condition. But what can OKC do to help those in lower income areas keep things from collapsing? It's beneficial to all involved. You keep the people in the homes and the neighborhood has a longer life.

So here's a thought...and it's not all the way thought-out, so don't pounce too hard. It's just an idea of something to do...or maybe spark other (and better) ideas.

How about set up some sort of line in the city budget as a low interest loan (well below what a bank would offer...think just to cover admin expenses) for rehab/renovation on a home older than 50 years. You could even plug that in with something like a tie to Habitat for Humanity so that the loan is paid through certain approved organizations for materials. HfH would definitely be a reduced cost items for things like a toilet, vanity, hardware, etc. Using those donated materials means you get a lot more bang for your buck than going to Lowe's for brand new stuff. It would be nice to help keep it as local as possible too. Partner with someone like H-I-S paints for those items, The Floor Store/Bryans/Whatever for those, keep the list going. The goal with that part of the deal would be that the home is reinvested in with local dollars supporting local companies for the local economy. These could be low amount loans with that type of program too. It's amazing what some paint can do...or one level up, fixing some sagging woodwork.

Thoughts?

Everything you post here would have been completely true probably 10 years ago. Today though there seems to be, in addition to the new residential projects in the core, massive revitalization of inner neighborhoods, such as those around the Paseo for instance. It is still very much a work-in-progress, but even since I've moved here in 2012, I've noticed more homes in the inner core being renovated and less dilapidated homes.

To avoid an ongoing distraction of mudslinging, since we know this won't end until someone relinquishes to Mr All Knowing over there, lets talk about OKC again.....

In reference to OKC, we do have a somewhat more difficult problem on our hands here. In DTW, there isn't much reason to stay in there areas and there aren't enough people to fill the homes. But in OKC, we've got a central core decline problem. In the CBD, they're trying to counter the issue in a commercial area with C2S. But what about areas where things are more residential? And expanding out from the central core, really consider inside the 44 loop on the north side too. Again, we're seeing commercial redevelopment along 23rd, but what about areas like Military Park? What would be really helpful would be a way to help homeowners reinvest in their home with renovations and rehabilitation. There are SOOOO many homes in those areas that are suffering from neglect. That brings down the property value and the decline of the neighborhood begins. Why should only large mansions be the focus of preservation or if not preservation, just good upkeep? Drive up Blackwelder and compare Putnam Heights to the right, with Military Park on the left. Day and Night. Putnam has the benefit of its residents having the income to keep the historic properties in great condition. But what can OKC do to help those in lower income areas keep things from collapsing? It's beneficial to all involved. You keep the people in the homes and the neighborhood has a longer life.

So here's a thought...and it's not all the way thought-out, so don't pounce too hard. It's just an idea of something to do...or maybe spark other (and better) ideas.

How about set up some sort of line in the city budget as a low interest loan (well below what a bank would offer...think just to cover admin expenses) for rehab/renovation on a home older than 50 years. You could even plug that in with something like a tie to Habitat for Humanity so that the loan is paid through certain approved organizations for materials. HfH would definitely be a reduced cost items for things like a toilet, vanity, hardware, etc. Using those donated materials means you get a lot more bang for your buck than going to Lowe's for brand new stuff. It would be nice to help keep it as local as possible too. Partner with someone like H-I-S paints for those items, The Floor Store/Bryans/Whatever for those, keep the list going. The goal with that part of the deal would be that the home is reinvested in with local dollars supporting local companies for the local economy. These could be low amount loans with that type of program too. It's amazing what some paint can do...or one level up, fixing some sagging woodwork.

Thoughts?

I say this will all the respect I can muster in the world:

You sincerely have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to this area of town, and no expectation in terms of progress/rate of progress which can be considered realistic.

1. The amount of private money flowing into the I-44 ring is obscene and it's from literally just about every type of source: Flippers, Young Buyers, 1st Time Buyers, People moving into the core, Even some good renters. It's light-years better than it was 10 years ago, even in areas not directly off 23rd. There's never been and never will be a chance for overnight change (1 year). It's a 20 year process and we're about 5 to 8 years in.

2. OKC's *REAL* problem is the continuance of a NW centric city where the SW/SE/NE are neglected, and right on its heels is the imminent deterioration of Putnam City to go along with the the other 3 quadrants, and the fact that now people aren't running toward the nether regions of OKC, they're running to whole new municipalities.

3. Your idea for loans I don't see as a bad thing, but I see it as way down on the list of where the money needs to go. Better to put resources into maintaining the viability of Putnam City in the long term and bettering Memorial Road and NW Expressway. All of that AFTER reestablishing Capitol Hill and finding a way to integrate NEOKC into the rest of the community fabric.

You can do a linked deposit program administered by a group like Preservation Oklahoma through a local bank, just for historic homes and based on the after reno appraisal (which totally changes the equity picture in old neighborhoods). The advantage is PO can offer guidance and expertise and banks still get ultimate approval as lender and then they have a loan product (targeted to passionate homeowners) that has done amazingly well in other places.

In Cleveland we have directly rehabbed well over 1,000 homes w this type of program, at fixed rates as low as 1.4%. It is Key Bank's highest-performing portfolio with like two foreclosures overall. That is in the epicenter of the foreclosure crisis. It would be very successful in OKC and could work in a spatially-defined area of Detroit like areas close to the Cass Corridor (Detroit is too large for one-off investments to create impact).

Fixing home finance works. Demolition doesn't. Don't forget that the driving force beyond everything that happens in housing is Fannie.

You can do a linked deposit program administered by a group like Preservation Oklahoma through a local bank, just for historic homes and based on the after reno appraisal (which totally changes the equity picture in old neighborhoods). The advantage is PO can offer guidance and expertise and banks still get ultimate approval as lender and then they have a loan product (targeted to passionate homeowners) that has done amazingly well in other places.

In Cleveland we have directly rehabbed well over 1,000 homes w this type of program, at fixed rates as low as 1.4%. It is Key Bank's highest-performing portfolio with like two foreclosures overall. That is in the epicenter of the foreclosure crisis. It would be very successful in OKC and could work in a spatially-defined area of Detroit like areas close to the Cass Corridor (Detroit is too large for one-off investments to create impact).

Fixing home finance works. Demolition doesn't.

Spartan, There was a time, a few years ago, when your far-right politics was such a turnoff. You made Jim Inhofe look like Fidel Castro. But you were also very young, and having been there and done that (many) years ago - I understand. But your growth and education has proved to be a huge plus for this forum. It isn't just the classroom education, but your travels, and just growing up - it's been great to watch. I now see almost all of your posts as a continuing education for me and others. I, for one, appreciate your willingness to still be engaged in your hometown. Your experiences and stories about Cleveland, and the other cities that were lucky enough to have you for a short while, add so much to a forum that is too often very short-sighted and seem to fail to learn from our own mistakes. We are still, in my opinion, very much a big town thrown into the deep end of the pool with the big cities and we're still learning to swim. You're presence here is invaluable. I don't always agree with you (but I usually do) and I am old enough to know when to listen and maybe learn I am wrong as you so strongly present your positions.

I just felt it was time someone spoke up with appreciation for your being here and sharing so much of what you have learned and are still learning. Thanks, my friend. You will go far - in whatever you choose to do.

I already said thanks for the kind words, but I really do appreciate the gesture. Sometimes I feel like a Martian for lingering around. I haven't even openly broached my shock and disbelief that OKC doesn't even have a community development corporation, yet (before leaving, Russell Klaus told me there may be one trying to form).

I've been really lucky to get the hands on experience with planning and development in Cleveland. The rust belt is really such an essential laboratory for urban planning right now because the best practices just don't build on the type of assets that exist here and nowhere else. We talk a lot in CLE's civic dialog about forgetting the best practices that work in Charlotte..or Columbus, and it's almost a cult of local pride. Ohio has almost become home, although I still see myself being on the national planner tour waiting to move back home once I have unbeatable qualifications and Couch retires and/or a few folks forget about my rabble rousing.

Teo, that might be true of the north side area, but that was just one portion of my discussion. And Military Park isn't any better off than it was 10 years ago when I drove through it every day in college. I can point out a few crack houses that burned down while I was in college if you'd like me to. Drive up Blackwelder (mainly as it turns into Georgia) and you'll see the same homes 10 years later with the same structural problems. One of those crack houses had been abounded as a wood faced structure, and was actually rebuilt as a much nicer multi-tenant brick face building. Just an FYI - I have a friend that is an OCPD officer that patrols this area at night. And several OCU Law friends that used to do ride-alongs in the area at night. In some ways, it's more quiet than the day, but you also get to see a whole lotta mess you never hear about during the day.

But anyway, go south of the river and you're in a much different world. That's an area that I would say needs more help. As well as the areas west of the fairgrounds. West OKC near Western Heights has seen such a drop in major manufacturing, that it's taken a VERY long time for things to bounce back. But those efforts are mostly centered near the highway. Given the niche a lot of the commercial redevelopment has been (ie Hobby Lobby as only one example), near highway transport is important...and so it makes sense.

BUT, shift that focus north a mile, and it's not the same story. Take the focus back south east (really anything feeding into Capital Hill High School) and that's an area I'd really like to see some of this type of effort focused on. It's sort of a forgotten area of the city that has been left to fend for it's own revival. And even that has sputtered and died out.

Teo, that might be true of the north side area, but that was just one portion of my discussion. And Military Park isn't any better off than it was 10 years ago when I drove through it every day in college. I can point out a few crack houses that burned down while I was in college if you'd like me to. Drive up Blackwelder (mainly as it turns into Georgia) and you'll see the same homes 10 years later with the same structural problems. One of those crack houses had been abounded as a wood faced structure, and was actually rebuilt as a much nicer multi-tenant brick face building. Just an FYI - I have a friend that is an OCPD officer that patrols this area at night. And several OCU Law friends that used to do ride-alongs in the area at night. In some ways, it's more quiet than the day, but you also get to see a whole lotta mess you never hear about during the day.

So your rebuttal is a story about a "crack house" ten years ago and a friend of yours who is a cop said something about the area. All of us in this thread are literally speaking a different language than you.


But anyway, go south of the river and you're in a much different world. That's an area that I would say needs more help. As well as the areas west of the fairgrounds. West OKC near Western Heights has seen such a drop in major manufacturing, that it's taken a VERY long time for things to bounce back. But those efforts are mostly centered near the highway. Given the niche a lot of the commercial redevelopment has been (ie Hobby Lobby as only one example), near highway transport is important...and so it makes sense.

You seem to be geographically confused (not surprising) but the NW 10th corridor you're alluding to is A, closer to I-40 than Hobby Lobby, and B, not what Teo was talking about when he referenced the tidal wave of home restoration on the inner north side.


BUT, shift that focus north a mile, and it's not the same story. Take the focus back south east (really anything feeding into Capital Hill High School) and that's an area I'd really like to see some of this type of effort focused on. It's sort of a forgotten area of the city that has been left to fend for it's own revival. And even that has sputtered and died out.

Wait, you want to tear down my grandparents neighborhood around Capitol Hill?? I don't think that's a forgotten area. We should try some community development down there and see those results before you bulldoze this discussion it's your ignorant demo-first approach. Like Detroit, you probably don't actually go to South OKC ever.

44th was just repaved with a nice streetscape at Western and Walker, where the Lafayette School was beautifully rehabbed into a community clinic. The playground behind it were restored into a community park. Mike Dover, who is on the sidewalks subcommittee, made that happen. There is investment happening again in the Stockyards. The Wheeler District is set to bridge the south side to downtown, which makes it one of the most important developments ever in OKC. SW 25th/Commerce Street is one of the best neighborhood centers in the city. Have lunch someday at Grill on the Hill (which would support the neighborhood more than your demo rhetoric) and try actually appreciating something in the city.

I recognize that urban planning and community development reasoning is not ever going to penetrate your thick skull. Why don't you just focus on MWC and let the rest of OKC follow a different (perhaps less enlightened in your opinion) path. I think OKC has mostly proven competent at neighborhood revitalization when it tries.

Sometimes I just don't understand how you can be so shortsighted and misguided. Bomber - who are you? Tell us about you and why you espouse these horrible things and get away with it?

Teo, that might be true of the north side area, but that was just one portion of my discussion. And Military Park isn't any better off than it was 10 years ago when I drove through it every day in college. I can point out a few crack houses that burned down while I was in college if you'd like me to. Drive up Blackwelder (mainly as it turns into Georgia) and you'll see the same homes 10 years later with the same structural problems. One of those crack houses had been abounded as a wood faced structure, and was actually rebuilt as a much nicer multi-tenant brick face building. Just an FYI - I have a friend that is an OCPD officer that patrols this area at night. And several OCU Law friends that used to do ride-alongs in the area at night. In some ways, it's more quiet than the day, but you also get to see a whole lotta mess you never hear about during the day.

But anyway, go south of the river and you're in a much different world. That's an area that I would say needs more help. As well as the areas west of the fairgrounds. West OKC near Western Heights has seen such a drop in major manufacturing, that it's taken a VERY long time for things to bounce back. But those efforts are mostly centered near the highway. Given the niche a lot of the commercial redevelopment has been (ie Hobby Lobby as only one example), near highway transport is important...and so it makes sense.

BUT, shift that focus north a mile, and it's not the same story. Take the focus back south east (really anything feeding into Capital Hill High School) and that's an area I'd really like to see some of this type of effort focused on. It's sort of a forgotten area of the city that has been left to fend for it's own revival. And even that has sputtered and died out.

First off, you're using 1 neighborhood to paint the entire I-44 inner-ring. So even if you were right about that particular neighborhood, you'd have not addressed the overall shape of the area you yourself established.

A quick browsing through zillow will show you how much this entire area is changing. Houses outside of Crown/Edgmere Heights, MP/HH, Putnam Heights and Linwood are ROUTINELY selling in the $90-to-$110 per square foot.

Including just past the interstate-ring area up to Expressway/Penn as the NW boundary, there have been 225 home sales noted on Zillow in the last 90 days alone. And there are another 145 listed as for sale on the site. Of that 225, only 99 have sold for <$100k, and many of those have probably been smaller homes that have sold for a good price per square foot.

All of this is happening while 23rd, Western, Plaza, OCU, Shepherd still have a LLOOONNNGG way to go to reach their eventual potential. This doesn't happen overnight.

2nd off…you're not even right about that exact area. Yes, there probably still is an occasional crack house in the area. That doesn't change the fact that there are houses every week that are selling and receiving maintenance.

I own a house on 46th street just East of Classen. I noticed a marked improvement on my street alone and several of the streets around me in between when I left for BsAs and my return 14 weeks later.

I'm not saying the transformation is complete, but I also don't expect this process to be anything but slow and steady. It's actually moving quicker than I thought I would, and the pace has picked up in the last 18 months far more than in the 42 months prior.

The only thing I want to see happen in this area is people start building modern looking homes (like what you see in SOSA, but better) on vacant lots throughout the area so that we have the early 1900s architecture juxtaposed with its 100-year-later counterpart. I cry every time I see a Deer Creek style home built in this area.

^ it would be better to not have the vacant lots in these neighborhoods that leverage their architectural assets.

I don't understand what you're saying :-/

What I'm talking about is the excitement over demoing a dilapidated home, to be replaced eventually by nothing or a Deer Creek ranch style, rather than boosting the assets of a neighborhood through rehabbing a historic property. There are tools like eminent domain and receivership that could get more of these homes in the hands of community development groups like Positively Paseo. The state legislature has not taken that away, yet.

That's what I keep talking about when I say we should try community development corporations to extent other large cities do. OKC is so suburban in nature that we don't even realize what we're missing out on.

This thread used to be interesting.

Teo I guess you missed the part where I said that area was further along than others, but you said yourself, it has a long way to go. I can drive around anywhere in the area and point out a dozen streets that showcase my point.

But before you get on some soapbox about 23rd, that wasn't even the point of my conversation. And if anything, 23rd shows that there are areas that CAN make a change if there is focus put on them. You would be hard pressed to find the same spark south of the river or west of 44. And you'd be even more hard pressed to find any city support of efforts south of the river. Focusing on the 23rd area is a distraction from the point of the conversation anyway. It was to discuss the low interest local business focus plan to rehab/renovate. Much like Spartan (even though he probably doesn't believe it), I would always prefer to see a home rather than an empty lot in OKC. If we work to help keep the home from getting so bad off, we'll be much better poised to keep that home from being demo'd.

I would suggest in some ways we are already headed down that path. If you drive down 29th East of Shields lots of empty buildings that since the e 30's and 40's were oilfield related. Much of Southwest Oklahoma city which used to be resoutly middle class is now Orange and yellow used tire and dollar stores. Crossroads sits empty after the latest scam to reopen it. Schools in decline..As someone who grew up there, it hurts to see what it has become. Remember GM? Took them no time to pull out of OKC.

Likewise Bricktown seems to be on the verge of a no go zone due to the shootings.

Since Jim imhoff retired and died it is just a matter of time before some other states Senator wrests control of the Base realignment committee and Tinker starts to die a slow painful death.

While MAPS has been great, it seems on the verge of diminishing returns. Likewise, I am just waiting for OKC to try raising the hotel/motel tax to 75% and expect things to keep coming to OKC.

And how much more dedicated to agriculture does the fair board think our Fairgrounds can get? Think we are really going to pull events from Dallas and or Fort Worth?? When was the last time the fair board or OKC published a public accounting of the "GREAT STATE FAIR OF OKLAHOMA?" where IS that money going?? I am not accusing them of impropriety, but they never even bothered to check with the taxpayers before shifting focus several years ago.

Just a few valid questions. . .

Oklahoma City is on the verge of becoming Detroit if you emphasize the failures of the city and diminish the progress of the city, then frame that progress in a negative context.

Oklahoma City is on the verge of becoming Detroit if you emphasize the failures of the city and diminish the progress of the city, then frame that progress in a negative context.

I will admit I have gotten to where I automatically assume a long comment left after 9PM is probably a drunken post.

For whatever reason, the longest and angriest posts are usually between 9PM and 5AM, IMO.

Wait what have I missed. I like Downtown Detroit. Casinos right there ballpark right there. It's not a bad downtown area at all.

Wait what have I missed. I like Downtown Detroit. Casinos right there ballpark right there. It's not a bad downtown area at all.

They declared bankruptcy, for one.

This seems like a really dumb decade old thread to resurrect and attempt to relate it to a thriving city.

Was Oklahoma City ever better than it is right now? I'm not originally from here, was there some other peak/prime the city had before now? Seems like it's doing quite well at the moment.

Another thread resurrected from more than a decade ago and responded to like it was posted yesterday. Yes, Oklahoma City has its share of problems, but NEWS FLASH, every American city has problems. I love Oklahoma City, past and present. I’m even a little more nostalgic than the next guy; but I try really hard to not live in the past and not romanticize everything from my childhood or young adult years. Oklahoma City was different back in the day, no question, but to object to progress, on practically every level, in order to complain about how “things are today” makes for a kind of miserable attitude on a forum like this. So many good things are happening in Oklahoma City right now. That, btw, can’t be said of every American city.

I think Detroit is going to experience a Renaissance. They have extremely wealthy suburbs. Much nicer than anything that exist anywhere in Oklahoma. Their downtown is slowly but surely starting to come back. They are removing a freeway which I’m not quite sure how I feel about it but it’s I-375. We’ll see how that goes.

I don’t see how there’s any comparison between Detroit and Oklahoma City. If memory serves correctly, Detroit was either the biggest city or one of them in the entire country. There’s a lot of history behind Detroit. I’ve never been to Michigan, but it looks like a beautiful state.

I think Detroit is going to experience a Renaissance. They have extremely wealthy suburbs. Much nicer than anything that exist anywhere in Oklahoma. Their downtown is slowly but surely starting to come back. They are removing a freeway which I’m not quite sure how I feel about it but it’s I-375. We’ll see how that goes.

I don’t see how there’s any comparison between Detroit and Oklahoma City. If memory serves correctly, Detroit was either the biggest city or one of them in the entire country. There’s a lot of history behind Detroit. I’ve never been to Michigan, but it looks like a beautiful state.

It was never larger than NYC or Chicago, and have to go back like 150 years for it to be larger than LA. It seem unlike even half the other dozen metros larger than it today only passed it in recent decades, and they are much further back if go by city proper population.

Was Oklahoma City ever better than it is right now? I'm not originally from here, was there some other peak/prime the city had before now? Seems like it's doing quite well at the moment.

Now is absolutely, positively the best time OKC has ever seen.

And based on our momentum and pipeline of big commercial projects, the new arena, the Olympics, and our much more diversified economy, the future looks even brighter.

Some will romanticize the late 70s (before the Penn Square Bank and oil bust) but I lived through that time and it was not remotely comparable.

Comparing Detroit and Oklahoma City is like comparing a stapler to a bag of marshmallows. The cities’ histories, geographies, built environments, economies, political realities etc could not be more different. I have been to Detroit and it has enormous problems and enormous potential. But OKC and Detroit just don’t have meaningful data points in common to make a meaningful comparison between the two.

Was Oklahoma City ever better than it is right now? I'm not originally from here, was there some other peak/prime the city had before now? Seems like it's doing quite well at the moment.

Depending on your preferences, maybe the 1920s? Good economy, big streetcar and interurban network (with streetcar suburbs), trains to take you to any other city or small town around. Of course, this is true for most cities in the U.S., and reminiscing about any time before the civil rights act is tricky.

Depending on your preferences, maybe the 1920s? Good economy, big streetcar and interurban network (with streetcar suburbs), trains to take you to any other city or small town around. Of course, this is true for most cities in the U.S., and reminiscing about any time before the civil rights act is tricky.

WTH does the civil rights act have to do with anything? I hope you aren't saying what you are saying.

WTH does the civil rights act have to do with anything? I hope you aren't saying what you are saying.

I'm saying that the civil rights act of 1964 improved a lot of people's lives.

I'm saying that the civil rights act of 1964 improved a lot of people's lives.

Doesn't read that way.

^^^^

Moving on, I would think Henry Ford's era of the Model T and the $5 day, through the Post WWII era were the time where Detroit was one of the most important cities on Earth. There were challenges since, but it is resilient.

Doesn't read that way.

please stop. i'm not sure what your issue is... either you lack fundamental reading comprehension skills, or you deliberately mischaracterize users' posts. either way, this is becoming a regular problem for you and it's a distraction.

it's clear what the user was saying... from the standpoint of transportation options, the 1920's could be considered a peak time for the city. however, the user points out that characterizing any point in time prior to the civil rights act as "ideal" can be problematic.

^^^^

Moving on, I would think Henry Ford's era of the Model T and the $5 day, through the Post WWII era were the time where Detroit was one of the most important cities on Earth. There were challenges since, but it is resilient.

i agree with you on the resilience of detroit. while there is still much work to do, the city seems to be on the right trajectory... much positive progress has been made in the past decade.

I went to Detroit for the first (and only) time in 2019. I was expecting what I think most people expect and was so very highly impressed. I stayed at a lovely Bed and Breakfast Inn in a quiet neighborhood just to the northwest of downtown by the art museums. The Inn had a shuttle that took us on the short drive down Woodward Street to the Detroit River where I learned a lot of history of the area. Detroit is very walkable. All of the major sports teams' venues are downtown if you like sports. The Fox Theatre and The Fillmore are a block apart if you are into live music. The food was fantastic. The areas north of Detroit are beautiful. Plus, if you like cars, you can take a tour of a working assembly plant where they make Ford F150s. I would go back and spend more time in Detroit anytime.

Now is absolutely, positively the best time OKC has ever seen.

And based on our momentum and pipeline of big commercial projects, the new arena, the Olympics, and our much more diversified economy, the future looks even brighter.

Some will romanticize the late 70s (before the Penn Square Bank and oil bust) but I lived through that time and it was not remotely comparable.

70s and early 80s were good. Post WWII was pretty good. I think the period from statehood (and the moving of the capital in 1910) through the beginning of the depression probably has a pretty strong argument for being the largest growth and development period for the city, it's hard to top springing up from nothing to being a relatively large, dense modern city in the span of 15-25 years. That said, the time period from the bombing and the opening of the first few MAPS projects (canal, ballpark, arena, river) to today has been such a massive/rapid transformation that it rivals going from empty prairie to urban city in 30 years. One put OKC on the literal map and the other has propelled it onto the national/international stage. It's something that's pretty cool to take stock and think about every once and awhile.

Of course that's all more growth related, in terms of quality and excitement it's certainly hard to envision there being a "better" time to live here than now. The only time period I can directly compare it to from experience is the 90s and by all accounts it sucked pretty hard then (all the way down to OU football).

Don't forget about Windsor when going to Detroit. Nice city and compliment to Detroit

70s and early 80s were good.

Oil prices peaked in 1980 then started a long, steady fall. I graduated from OU in 1982 and nobody was hiring.

PS Bank completely collapsed in July of '82 and then things got really bad very quickly.

Oil prices peaked in 1980 then started a long, steady fall. I graduated from OU in 1982 and nobody was hiring.

PS Bank completely collapsed in July of '82 and then things got really bad very quickly.

Yeah, should've specified VERY early 80s lol.

Someone was wearing their rose colored nostalgia glasses again(You see a lot of these kind of posts at this time of year). These same old timers talk about how they had to walk through an apocalyptic wasteland to get to school.

Someone was wearing their rose colored nostalgia glasses again(You see a lot of these kind of posts at this time of year). These same old timers talk about how they had to walk through an apocalyptic wasteland to get to school.

I am guilty of being very sentimental -- having lots of fond memories -- but absolutely not being nostalgic, i.e. thinking those days were somehow better.

I often say my 80s self is so incredibly jealous of the OKC everyone has now, especially young people. I knew absolutely every place there was to go in the 70s and 80s and while we managed to have fun, it was really, really, really bleak compared to now.

Oil prices peaked in 1980 then started a long, steady fall. I graduated from OU in 1982 and nobody was hiring.

PS Bank completely collapsed in July of '82 and then things got really bad very quickly.

My parents are a year younger than you - my dad graduated from OU and stayed in OKC. I am surprised there is not a ripple effect of the size of the "elder millennial" population in OKC based on that early 80s downturn - the elder millennials being the kids of those early 80s grads who left the state. There seems to be a pretty big population of 35-40 year olds in OKC today. Had I grown up out of state, I'm sure I would've gone to college in that state (or not in Oklahoma) and probably would not have ended up in OKC after school. Maybe by this logic, the elder millennial population in OKC would be even larger today had the local economy not crashed in the early 80s and driven people away from the state.

And anecdotally, most of my friends who were from out of state but attended OU/OSU returned back to their homes out of state after school, so I don't know that there's been a huge influx of elder millennials from out of state. The stats could be different though.

My parents are a year younger than you - my dad graduated from OU and stayed in OKC. I am surprised there is not a ripple effect of the size of the "elder millennial" population in OKC based on that early 80s downturn - the elder millennials being the kids of those early 80s grads who left the state. There seems to be a pretty big population of 35-40 year olds in OKC today. Had I grown up out of state, I'm sure I would've gone to college in that state (or not in Oklahoma) and probably would not have ended up in OKC after school. Maybe by this logic, the elder millennial population in OKC would be even larger today had the local economy not crashed in the early 80s and driven people away from the state.

And anecdotally, most of my friends who were from out of state but attended OU/OSU returned back to their homes out of state after school, so I don't know that there's been a huge influx of elder millennials from out of state. The stats could be different though.

I keep the database for my high school class, Putnam City 1978, all 905 of us. We were the last class before PC North was opened and at the time considered the top school in the state.

And I can tell you that more than half of my classmates are not living in Oklahoma. Those who didn't immediately leave for an out-of-state college left in the 80s and 90s, which is exactly what I did. And the database also tells me those who left tend to be more highly educated.

Similarly, I keep a database for my OU fraternity for my age and a few years older and younger. The majority are not in Oklahoma.

Of course, lots of people my age stayed and had kids. But I remember David Boren speaking at an L.A. OU Club meeting and talking about the terrible effects of Oklahoma's 'brain drain'. That has now mostly reversed but it took decades. And I still don't see much evidence of highly educated people moving here without prior family connections.

I think 1978-83 was a great time to be in OKC and a young adult. The Oil Boom was about as good as claimed. The hard times didn't hit everyone and really didn't start crashing until 83-84, IMO. I also think end of the 80s into the mid 90s were the toughest times. The S&L crisis of 1988ish up seemed to dry up any capital that was left in the banking system. A lot of good bankers were crushed and never came back after that.

I’d been visiting Oklahoma my whole life - I didn’t grow up here but my parents both did and my family roots are six generations deep - but I didn’t move here until 1986. I was as happy as a pig in slop, because I’d held Oklahoma up as the promised land in my mind since I was a baby. It’s all my parents talked about, and all of my extended family was based here.

But as an 18 year old I had no understanding of what an abysmal economy I had landed in. Didn’t really matter to me; I was starting college and my dad and stepmom were securely employed. But I look back now on the carnage that was surrounding me and I’m sort of astonished at how bad it was. With more maturity and perspective I understand how bad some people in my orbit had it.

You could very easily buy crack or a prostitute in places like Plaza District or Paseo. Heck, you could buy a boarded up home in Paseo for five thousand bucks. Grand homes in Heritage Hills that today fetch a million or two were chopped up into slummy flop houses. Some of those places were still like that well into the nineties or even early 2000s. OKC was a bleak place.

The people missing from OKC are GenX. I knew so many people who finished school at OU and OSU who left town like their hair was on fire in the late eighties and early nineties. Some of them returned, but many are still missing. I remember when my uncle (very successful broker with Henderson Properties, IYKYK) was loading up to move to Plano and told me “we all need to get out of this sinkhole.” He moved to DFW and started doing business with people like Jerry Jones.

I remember my grandmother telling me about the Dust Bowl and the Depression. It blew my mind, and yet I still to this day don’t think I accurately comprehend it, even at 56. I’ve seen the pictures. I’m smart. I’m empathetic. I have imagination. But I still don’t think I can accurately guess what it felt like to live here then. The dust, the poverty, the desperation, the hopelessness.

And I’m telling you, unless you lived in this town in the 1980s you have no idea what you’re talking about when you discuss that era.

Someone was wearing their rose colored nostalgia glasses again(You see a lot of these kind of posts at this time of year). These same old timers talk about how they had to walk through an apocalyptic wasteland to get to school.

Some people assume that the way OKC is now is basically how it always was. I have lived in Tulsa and here and owned businesses here since mid 70s after graduating from OU and can tell you that those that pass off OKC and Oklahoma’s dire past are not students of history or facts. Dismissing the testimony of those who have lived through is is the arrogance of youth and absence of perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8C-LC_FgLI