Boeings okc jobs are here because DOD contracts. The company has completely different companies for commercial and defense sides. Google it.

If you don't understand what a customer is than I can't help you.

Your confusing debt for progress. Just because you buy 17 trillion dollars on a credit card doesn't make me rich. It makes me Detroit when the bills come due.


A little side-bar. If you haven't done it already check out the documentary Surviving Progress.

6IAs3tMZneM

Boeings okc jobs are here because DOD contracts. The company has completely different companies for commercial and defense sides. Google it.

If you don't understand what a customer is than I can't help you.



However, let's look at how the old GM plant is helping bring jobs and keep jobs here:

Oklahoma City (Tinker AFB)

Oklahoma is one of the top 10 states in traditional aerospace occupation employment in the nation. Leading the way in terms of facilities and jobs is Oklahoma City-based Tinker Air Force Base -- the largest group of civilian Air Force personnel in the U.S., and Oklahoma's largest single-site employer with an annual statewide economic impact of close to $4 billion. Tinker Air Force Base is a major industrial complex surrounded by a diverse set of aerospace companies such as Boeing, L3, Northrup Grumman and Pratt Whitney, both on base and in Oklahoma City.

The booming growth of this cluster is not just a trend -- foundations are in place to ensure its success. The dynamic, trusting relationship between local leadership in Oklahoma City and the County is unmatched -- leaders have a combined strategy that offers clients a one-stop shop and quick turnaround on complex projects. In 2005, when General Motors announced plans to close its $500 million Oklahoma City plant, the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, Oklahoma County, the State of Oklahoma, the Department of Defense, GM and Tinker Air Force Base joined forces to quickly repurpose the plant through a $54 million bond election. Today, Tinker Aerospace Complex (TAC) is considered the most advanced Air Force aviation and aerospace manufacturing production facility in the world, thanks to a strong community/Air Force relationship. Southern Business & Development > Features > Winter 2012 > Ten Successful Aviation and Aerospace Clusters (http://www.sb-d.com/Features/Winter2012/TenSuccessfulAviationandAerospaceClusters/tabid/488/Default.aspx)

Over the past year, families have been moving into the area to pick up work at the Boeing plant in OKC and other jobs at Tinker. As the federal government threatens budget cuts and tax increases, having Boeing relocate its workers to Tinker will continue to provide growth. State Representative Tom Cole hopes that Congress and the president will come to an agreement and provide a budgetary certainty as well as increase Tinker’s role in the community.

“The transfer of Boeing workers to Oklahoma City is a positive sign that affirms Tinker’s essential role,” Cole said. “Boeing, along with other private sector businesses that support the Tinker mission, will continue to balance business opportunities with the risk and uncertainty of the volatile budget situation.”
- See more at: News | Moore Monthly (http://www.mooremonthly.com/news/impact-of-boeing-relocation-goes-beyond-jobs#sthash.9sJC1Zcl.dpuf)


It's pretty simple. Restructuring the old GM plant into the Tinker Aerospace Complex strengthens Tinker and our place as a aerospace powerhouse location. This attracts more aerospace companies which brings more jobs and more people. More people requires more housing and more service related companies for people to use their new purchasing power which increases tax revenues. Also, this has nothing to do with the national debt as the county purchased the plant with bond money and then leased it to Tinker so they could avoid having to spend a bunch of money replacing or renovating old maintenance facilities on base. Thus, this actually saved federal money. The increased tax revenues will pay back the bond money.

If you don't understand basic economy...I can't help you

The increased tax revenues will pay back the bond money.

This never works. If it did every city in America would be flush with cash, but not a single one is.

Would you rather it go to some other community. The strength and diversity of the work that Tinker does is one of the reasons it has avoided closure. What say ye about the private development? Would all the retail and shops be along 29th if Tinker closed? The new apartments ion I240 near the plant? The Boeing jobs? None of this is government money. Seems kind of clever to invest in our future and growth and to ensure the stability of our air base. I think Detroit would be jumping on any chance to get a federal agency into one of their empty plants.

Um, those are ALL "government money" (DOD) jobs.

Um, those are ALL "government money" (DOD) jobs.

You think he would understand after reading what he posted.

For the record I have worked at tinker as a contractor my first 2 years out of undergrad. Before i started I thought because I worked for a large name contractor that I was somehow above those government DOD employees. Huge wakeup call when I found out a contractor worked for them, they were our customers - they paid us. We reported to them and if Congress passed a budget that was smaller it affected us because there was less money for what ever contract we were on at the time. The buildings Boeing built here, are for Contract work. It may be multiple year contract work and they may have hopes of winning future contracts. But it's not indefinite, just look at the whole tanker fiasco over last 10 years.

Herein lies the problem with outsiders discussing Detroit's problems.

This never works. If it did every city in America would be flush with cash, but not a single one is.

JTF, are you kidding us? This is a pure investment. If it never works then no one has ever benefitted from investing their money. Just because it is government money doesn't change.the concept of investment. I think thats where your real rub is. You just dont think this is a valid function of government. Do I want government in the business of investment at all levels? No! Ive seen many community industrial authorities make investments that were clearly done by people who had no idea what they were doing.

As for GM, we might still have the plant if the city hadn't been forced to renig on property tax abatements. As it is,, the current arrangement is working out well. This was a well conceived investment that has clearly been beneficial.

Have you been to Detroit and disagree with my assessment that it's very sprawled, with wealth existing in the suburban reaches?I've never been to Detroit, but have seen quite a bit about it. Not sure how sprawled it is though, but surely it can't be worse than Atlanta, Houston, Jacksonville, OKC, or any other sprawled out cities.

No disrespect, intended, young Voyager . . .
Yet . . . Have you ever actually been to Detroit?
(other than in better dreams of finer cars?)

And Houston is hot, humid and unwelcoming,
No matter how you slice it.
Yet it is The Gateway to Galveston . . .
Via Automobile . . .
And so it goes . . . =)I haven't been to Detroit honestly.

You are thinking way to short term as the decline has been in the making for decades, but you are still a child so I'll give you a pass on that.

You are still too focused on just sprawl. Comparing Detroit to Houston in the last recession - is what I believe you meant to say - can't really be a serious comment. You are talking about the oil mecca of the US to the auto capital. When oil prices go up...that doesn't exactly help Detroit. You can't compare the two.Well, what about Atlanta? ATL is still pretty good and I'm not sure how affected they were by the recession. I just don't see how sprawl led to Detroit's downfall.

Wife born and raised in Detroit. I have long been interested in urban decay/regeneration and was looking forward to observing poster child. We went up for a wedding. Totally shocked by what I saw. Reminded me of Edmond, at least the areas we were in. Only had a few days, so I couldn't venture to the downtown areas that clearly borne the brunt of decay. Seems the suburbs are getting along just fine. Also, whenever we saw a car plant, they seem to be well away from cities.

States ranked by dependence to federal $:

States Most & Least Dependent on the Federal Government | WalletHub® (http://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700/)

Wife born and raised in Detroit. I have long been interested in urban decay/regeneration and was looking forward to observing poster child. We went up for a wedding. Totally shocked by what I saw. Reminded me of Edmond, at least the areas we were in. Only had a few days, so I couldn't venture to the downtown areas that clearly borne the brunt of decay. Seems the suburbs are getting along just fine. Also, whenever we saw a car plant, they seem to be well away from cities.

This. I would say Detroit sprawl is way worse than any of you fathom.

The sprawl is actually a major factor in the decline, but not the way OKC-ers think of sprawl. Sprawl in Detroit was because of White Flight. The suburbs are mostly doing just fine, its only DTW proper that is in such a terrible state. I know my previous post was a little long, but it does have some details on the subject. There have been countless good documentaries and reports done about DTW's issues, and from before it became a mainstream media story. I don't know the exact one, but there was an excellent informative piece broadcast on OETA last year that just preceded an election there. It focused quite a bit on how the UAW is intrinsically linked to the situation as well. As others have mentioned, you'll notice that the plants that survived are mostly outside of the metro.

Detropia is an excellent piece. I would encourage everyone to take a look.
Detropia - PBS Independent Lens/ (http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/detropia/)

JTF, are you kidding us? This is a pure investment. If it never works then no one has ever benefitted from investing their money. Just because it is government money doesn't change.the concept of investment. I think thats where your real rub is. You just dont think this is a valid function of government. Do I want government in the business of investment at all levels? No! Ive seen many community industrial authorities make investments that were clearly done by people who had no idea what they were doing.

As for GM, we might still have the plant if the city hadn't been forced to renig on property tax abatements. As it is,, the current arrangement is working out well. This was a well conceived investment that has clearly been beneficial.

Maybe it is because we are looking at it on two different levels. In your world the left hand is eating the right hand and as a member of the left hand you are saying Yippe, better that we eat the right hand instead of it eating us (this is the whole 'would you rather have these jobs in another state' mentality). I am looking at it from the whole body perspective and saying holy crap, my left hand is eating my right hand - that can't be good. For the federal government to spend any money it first has to take that money out of the economy. It is impossible to fill a half-full bathtub only using water that is already INSIDE the tub.

I've never been to Detroit, but have seen quite a bit about it. Not sure how sprawled it is though, but surely it can't be worse than Atlanta, Houston, Jacksonville, OKC, or any other sprawled out cities.
Detroit sprawled well before those other cities listed did. The car companies moved to the burbs (Ford to Dearborn, Chrysler to Highland Park, AMC in Southfield), then the employees moved out to the burbs. GM has been based in Detroit proper since the twenties but had major operations in towns like Flint and Pontiac. Those cities decline started when they lost manufacturing plants.

want to see something depressing? check out these Silverdome photos

Detroiturbex.com - Pontiac Silverdome (http://detroiturbex.com/content/parksandrec/silverdome/index.html)

want to see something depressing? check out these Silverdome photos

Detroiturbex.com - Pontiac Silverdome (http://detroiturbex.com/content/parksandrec/silverdome/index.html)

The thing that stood out in a lot of those photos is how good a condition the support structures looked, it could have probably been a functional building for several decades more with some level of maintenance but without a core tenant that would fill it they just are letting it rot.

The thing that stood out in a lot of those photos is how good a condition the support structures looked, it could have probably been a functional building for several decades more with some level of maintenance but without a core tenant that would fill it they just are letting it rot.

I noticed that too, appears to be a well built building. I never attended a game there but it always looked dreadful on TV, but those pictures show it to be a pretty decent facility.

Well, what about Atlanta? ATL is still pretty good and I'm not sure how affected they were by the recession. I just don't see how sprawl led to Detroit's downfall.

You aren't reading. Detroit's downfall wasn't just sprawl...but it was a leading contributor. Like others have said, you aren't looking at sprawl in the right manner. Don't think of it in the manner of OKC or JAX expanding leaps and bounds out of a normal city's boundaries. Sprawl in this manner lead to many affluent suburbs popping up around the outskirts of Detroit and they just kept spreading out. The money left Detroit proper. That is the problem. You need to look at sprawl in that way, not expanding borders in the way we look at it here.

You aren't reading. Detroit's downfall wasn't just sprawl...but it was a leading contributor. Like others have said, you aren't looking at sprawl in the right manner. Don't think of it in the manner of OKC or JAX expanding leaps and bounds out of a normal city's boundaries. Sprawl in this manner lead to many affluent suburbs popping up around the outskirts of Detroit and they just kept spreading out. The money left Detroit proper. That is the problem. You need to look at sprawl in that way, not expanding borders in the way we look at it here.I think I see what you're saying. The money stayed out in the suburbs and never entered the city of Detroit directly- that makes sense.

I think I see what you're saying. The money stayed out in the suburbs and never entered the city of Detroit directly- that makes sense.

To a point yes. More accurately the money originated in Detroit and left for the suburbs never to return. Detroit has several suburbs that make Edmond look like Valley Brook. Bloomfield Hills on the NW side of Detroit is always in the top 5 nationally of highest median incomes - over $100k/yr.

Very true Venture. When people say Detroit, they often try to associate the downfall with then entire metro. That is NOT the case. There is still a ton of money there. Ford Field and the Lions wouldn't be there if they weren't able to support it (just a small example). It's not as though the metro has dried up, it's just the city itself. If you speak to people in Detroit, they often don't refer to the area by the name Detroit anymore, rather one of the suburbs (although which one escapes my mind at the moment).

And to be fair with the Pontiac Dome, it was replaced with Ford Field. I don't want someone to think the place was abandoned because the teams left town. It was quite the opposite. And I'd give high praise to the city of DTW for being able to keep the stadium downtown in the midst of all of this trouble.

Silverdome is in pontiac which is 45 minutes to a hour from detroit so is the palace of auburn hills where the detroit pistons play.

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2

want to see something depressing? check out these Silverdome photos

Detroiturbex.com - Pontiac Silverdome (http://detroiturbex.com/content/parksandrec/silverdome/index.html)

See that first picture with the stadium surrounded by a sea of parking? That right there was problem number 1. Now compare that scene to the new Ford Field. It's still not perfect but they are moving in the right direction.

Silverdome is in pontiac which is 45 minutes to a hour from detroit so is the palace of auburn hills where the detroit pistons play.

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2



I've been to Pontiac Michigan and as you said it's a long way from Detroit and recently was doing good until the gm facility (made gm sierra trucks and a few other things) shut down.

Tons of nice house but now there is nothing. Huge empty plant , all the suppliers that had huge facilities near by to support the plant closed, massive empty parking lots, massive empty really nice hotels....Everyone gone it was depressing.

Now your gm sierra 46,000 dollar truck is made in salio Mexico and all the suppliers are there too. Workers earn 40 dollars a week.

If that's not a markup then I don't know what is.

Well never mind. I just Googled the facility and they tore it down. I stayed across the street from it a few years ago at the auburn hills Marriott , pontiac at center point ( they changed the name because it's not auburn hills). It was the first time in my life I saw a manufacturing plant that large and was taken back by all the recently empty businesses.

I was uncomfortable staying in such a large hotel because there might of been 15 other people staying in this huge 11 floor hotel. I dont k now if i can put it into words. But the whole town felt like being at your grandparents house after one of them died. Felt empty and sad.

Now your gm sierra 46,000 dollar truck is made in salio Mexico and all the suppliers are there too. Workers earn 40 dollars a week.

If that's not a markup then I don't know what is.

Just to keep it real (although it in no way invalidates your point):

GM, Ford Accelerate Shift to Mexico Workers Making $26 a Day - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-09/gm-ford-to-accelerate-growth-at-mexico-plants-where-workers-get-26-a-day.html)


GM workers in Mexico earn wages and benefits of 340 pesos a day ($26.40) on average, or less than $4 an hour, said Tereso Medina, head of the union for GM’s 5,000 workers in Saltillo, a city that makes one in four Mexican autos.

The reality is the price of automobiles far exceeds the price most Americans can afford to pay. It is a titanic problem facing out economy because auto loans are the second largest source of new money (thanks to the 'money as debt' model used by the Federal Reserve). No car sales, no new money in the economy, no money to pay back loans, liquidity trap, collapse of the currency. The only think that stopped collapse from happening last time was Bush and TARP.

Just to keep it real (although it in no way invalidates your point):

GM, Ford Accelerate Shift to Mexico Workers Making $26 a Day - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-09/gm-ford-to-accelerate-growth-at-mexico-plants-where-workers-get-26-a-day.html)



The reality is the price of automobiles far exceeds the price most Americans can afford to pay. It is a titanic problem facing out economy because auto loans are the second largest source of new money (thanks to the 'money as debt' model used by the Federal Reserve). No car sales, no new money in the economy, no money to pay back loans, liquidity trap, collapse of the currency. The only think that stopped collapse from happening last time was Bush and TARP.I would say it more has to do with greed in paying them those kinds of wages. Then again, the cost of living in Mexico in the third world areas are a completely different animal than here.

26 ollars a day for 10 hour work shifts...paid by us tax payer bailout funds while laying off American workers. Disgusting.

26 ollars a day for 10 hour work shifts...paid by us tax payer bailout funds while laying off American workers. Disgusting.

It's best if you try not think about it. Plus, 2020 will be here before you know it.

Maybe it is because we are looking at it on two different levels. In your world the left hand is eating the right hand and as a member of the left hand you are saying Yippe, better that we eat the right hand instead of it eating us (this is the whole 'would you rather have these jobs in another state' mentality). I am looking at it from the whole body perspective and saying holy crap, my left hand is eating my right hand - that can't be good. For the federal government to spend any money it first has to take that money out of the economy. It is impossible to fill a half-full bathtub only using water that is already INSIDE the tub.

JTF, you're reply to me had nothing to do with what I said. You're talking about the Federal Government while I'm talking about State and Local government. If you are of the mentality that all the money spent by government for investment, no matter the level of government, is taking money out the economy you simply don't comprehend the concept of investment. Sometimes it is necessary to pool money in one place to be invested in a limited, but focused way vs. the shotgun approach where small bits of money are invested for small things. This is why mutual funds, hedge funds, private equities and REIT's exist ant thrive. MAPS I and Bricktown's revival were such a marvelous success. It's why the forced construction of DFW Airport (vs. separate airports for Dallas and Ft. Worth) was such a key part of the explosion of the DFW metro. Sometimes, large levels of government spending are necessary to reach the critical mass to get private investment to take over. In your analogy, its not one hand eating the other, its one hand doing the job better than the other in certain circumstances.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of government getting involved in our business - and usually they don't do it right. I've just seen too many cases where focused and thoughtful government investment in the right things can produce a return far bigger than the investment itself.

Plus, 2020 will be here before you know it.What is happening in 2020?

You guys attempting to talk about Detroit is humorous to me. I just wrapped up hosting a 3-day conference on planning and preservation in rust belt cities which you guys would all have been laughed out of.

LOL you sure know how to charm them Sparty...

I just don't know where to begin in addressing the ignorance in this thread, probably shouldn't.

I just don't know where to begin in addressing the ignorance in this thread, probably shouldn't.

Actually, you are the one that should. Your perspective is most valuable because you are specifically trained, experienced and currently active in relevant activity. Many on here only throw up conjecture and opinion, not facts or context.

It's personally aggravating because legacy cities (aka rust belt cities) face problems that are cyclically driven by perception, which hampers those on the ground working to solve these problems.

By the way, everyone should get their head around this fact: Michigan is a top 5 state for R&D, propelled in large part by Michigan State and TSUN.

Statewide they have good income levels, good literacy and educational attainment stats, and their corporate economy is at least as diversified as OKC's. Thrown in for good measure amongst the auto makers are household products, cereal, finance, energy, among others.

Detroit isn't functioning as the major city of a healthy state. The problem is there's a disconnect driven by the over supply of real estate - continued production of more real estate - and the needs that all of these communities are clamoring against each other for. This is a problem of polarity and gravitational pull.

I just don't know where to begin in addressing the ignorance in this thread, probably shouldn't.Well can you? I've posted a few things on here and if I am in the wrong, I would sincerely like to know. I am not trying to ignorant on purpose.

It's personally aggravating because legacy cities (aka rust belt cities) face problems that are cyclically driven by perception, which hampers those on the ground working to solve these problems.

By the way, everyone should get their head around this fact: Michigan is a top 5 state for R&D, propelled in large part by Michigan State and TSUN.

Statewide they have good income levels, good literacy and educational attainment stats, and their corporate economy is at least as diversified as OKC's. Thrown in for good measure amongst the auto makers are household products, cereal, finance, energy, among others.

Detroit isn't functioning as the major city of a healthy state. The problem is there's a disconnect driven by the over supply of real estate - continued production of more real estate - and the needs that all of these communities are clamoring against each other for. This is a problem of polarity and gravitational pull.

I'm confused. Most of us who have been there have said numerous times that the area around detroit is very nice and in a lot of cases much nicer than okc suburbs. Lots of really good jobs and educated workforce, and is really a nice place outside of the over blighted areas in the older sections of town.

And that the major problem facing it is outside public perception, insane and non stop sprawl, and lack of redevelopment in older sections of town. How is this different from what you said?

I'm confused. Most of us who have been there have said numerous times that the area around detroit is very nice and in a lot of cases much nicer than okc suburbs. Lots of really good jobs and educated workforce, and is really a nice place outside of the over blighted areas in the older sections of town.

And that the major problem facing it is outside public perception, insane and non stop sprawl, and lack of redevelopment in older sections of town. How is this different from what you said?

Sorry I was addressing the fixation on unions that I was seeing in most posts. Sprawl is the main thing. This region is not demographically of professionally unqualified.

I'm just feeling defeated over trying to get some movement on growth boundaries over the last week, when right now the preservation movement is more interested in the seat at the table (with Hardest Hit Funds) strategy. HHF is the undoing of Detroit and Cleveland, but it came about through the perpetuated perception and the half baked idea that demo everything is the ONLY idea. The urban interests are absolutely terrified of taking on Kasich or Snyder.

I think a growth boundary would solve every problem almost, as long as access to LIHTC remains. Demo solves nothing. I truly believe being in Detroit or Cleveland or Pittsburgh or Baltimore is an awe inspiring experience that we shouldn't give up on. Especially the Paris of the Midwest.

I think a growth boundary would solve every problem almost, as long as access to LIHTC remains. Demo solves nothing. I truly believe being in Detroit or Cleveland or Pittsburgh or Baltimore is an awe inspiring experience that we shouldn't give up on. Especially the Paris of the Midwest.

The hard thing about an creating an urban growth boundary now is the sprawl is so far past the city of Detroit (like a lot of city cores) is that they no longer have any legislative control where the sprawl occurs, they are nearing being only a quarter of the metro population. The metro goes twice as far north as the city is North/South and it is as far west as the city is East/West (South & East were not as much an issue due to the border/lakes, though there is a smaller suburb-ish city in Canada).

They even have a problem similar to Tulsa where the population has migrated so far out that downtown is no longer centrally located, in fact it is probably worse in that the center of the population has probably even migrated outside their city limits and one of their earlier ring freeways will give better access to that than historic downtown if those communities can start getting active on pulling in the regional attractions.

Yeah, meet Oakland County - suburb and downtown of nothing, all in one.

Here's the one drawback of growth boundaries - artificially accelerated land values. Now consider that Detroit's real problem is that a Detroit address is literally worth nothing. Yes it must be done at the state level in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, New Jersey, etc. but it's the only solution left. We're not west coast and even if land values get too high as a result, too much of a good thing would be welcome at this point.

Well you won't find any support from any state (including MI) that would support an urban growth boundary by forcing the surrounding suburbs to not build. That's more of what DTW faces than OKC's internal issues. OKC has the land to (if it so chose) force development back in (but don't hold your breath there). I really wish it would...it's been wonderful in Portland as a model for oh so many things. But in DTW, the city itself doesn't have much left and isn't where the construction is happening. So if you try to force people to build back in DTW rather than a suburban community, you're really starting a dangerous game from a government perspective. It's one thing to create a boundary inside DTW itself, but it's a whole other ball game to do so in a metro. And with DTW, that's really what we're looking at here.

Keep in mind that DTW is creating it's own growth boundaries, although not really calling them that. As areas become abandoned, the city is cutting utilities to areas so they no longer have to support them. And these aren't just little cul-de-sacs either. So by cutting those services off, they've cut off development to those areas in the hopes of pushing those efforts into other areas. Pairing that with the new revitalization efforts (I just hope it gets the federal funding and the civil earmarks don't go astray) are slowly making a difference.

In all honestly, I really feel like a push from the outer city boundaries IN is what's going to help the most. A growth pattern that makes use of the areas that at least aren't dead (albeit not great...like Warren) can help get things turned back into the city.

There is no growth at all. It's just a slow drain of activity and resources from Detroit to it's suburbs. After so much poaching there is nothing left, they're now at that post apocalyptic phase. You're right about sectioning off emptied out areas of Detroit, but what happens in revitalization focus areas is widespread demo.

They have $100 MILLION in HHF for nothing but demo, and despite the federal disbursement, it all bypasses Sec 106 review which is charting new disastrous territory. Everything will be lost and this pain of "Rightsizing" is being reserved only for Detroit through demo and none of the suburbs through limits to their poaching. This is absurd.

A growth boundary happened in OR and MN. It can happen in MI and OH - that's not like suggesting it for OKC or Dallas. These are moderate states where sprawl is king but there is still a strong urban coalition and environmentalism appeals to many outside that structure.

Before you pounce on the demo work, you also need to examine how the program works, and what structures they are targeting. It's not a blanket project by any means. They aren't targeting a section and dozing randomly.

Step 1- the property has to be deemed abandoned. By the time it reaches that status, it's overgrown, become dilapidated, and is often structurally unsound because of the issues of non-upkeep have caused.
Step 2- Part of the newest form of the program is a notification. The city will post a notification of the site being targeted by the city. The owner then has I believe 72 hours to respond to the notice before they start the process of claiming the structure. Remember that by this point, it's already been left for months or years. Boarded up or broken windows, become a drug house, etc. The goal of this notification effort is not to get the house, but to motivate the owner to do something about it. This new program has seen a high rate of return on the notification side. That doesn't always equate to a "correction", but it's far higher than it once was.
Step 3 - In those situations (which still accounts for 3/4 of them) where either the owner didn't respond or when they responded they chose not to take action (or by inaction) the home is then taken by the city.
Step 4 - This is where the program is taking a new direction. The 100 million for demo is not the dollars I'm speaking of. There was a good piece on NPR last week discussing how the city was able to create a $500 million fund over the next 5 years by shuffling funding around from different apportionments. There was absolute amazement and congratulations given to the financial side for being able to squeeze it together. It's a "pledged" amount at this point because it's to be created over the 5 years, not in a lump sum. These dollars are meant to be spent to help take those homes that the city takes, and decide if they are able to be saved, and if there is an ROI within reach on that home. 500 million isn't that much for a city of that size...you aren't going to be saving those large 10 story apartment buildings with it, but you can save a hundred homes here and there.....seedlings to hopefully help grow something. Because at this point, the property is often in terrible shape, there are few structures that meet the qualifications for the program, but they do exist. I think the statistic I heard was something like 8 out of 35 that was re-habbed from step 2, but since the program is new, there aren't a lot of stats on the remaining 3/4 to say what the city is able to do.

As for the growth boundary, did not the City of Portland create that boundary? Again, only the city can put that in. The state will not sacrifice growth in a suburb to push it to the city. Now would you want the state to be able to have the power to do so. Some people call me a social democrat (remember im registered republican though...LOL), but that sort of interference for the "common good" is a bit much for me. I'd prefer to leave the growth boundaries to the cities. OKC is in a unique, and I would argue better, position that the large land area gives it more power to force the boundary. Often times the growth is within its own borders, so the city would have the ability to push it back in. Like with any boundary, you face the possibility that the people simply move to the other side of the line though...Moore/Edmond/etc. But OKC stands a much better chance of being able to enforce one on its own than DTW, whose land area isn't uncommonly large.

What would happen if Detroit annexed some of the higher income inner suburbs to give them more of a tax base? Would the newly annexed areas go to hell as well or could they help foster a turnaround for the larger city? I believe one of the man reasons OKC isn't Detroit today is its large land area and the fact the some of the most affluent suburban areas are in the city proper. Otherwise, the city core wouldn't have survived the oil bust of the 1980s. MAPS would have never been passed and the city would likely be looking at expanding suburbs and a dead core to this day.

What would happen if Detroit annexed some of the higher income inner suburbs to give them more of a tax base? Would the newly annexed areas go to hell as well or could they help foster a turnaround for the larger city? I believe one of the man reasons OKC isn't Detroit today is its large land area and the fact the some of the most affluent suburban areas are in the city proper. Otherwise, the city core wouldn't have survived the oil bust of the 1980s. MAPS would have never been passed and the city would likely be looking at expanding suburbs and a dead core to this day.

I would guess zero residents would vote in favor of annexation. It isn't some forced thing. Property owners typically have to approve it and it can come to plot by plot. Also you are talking about incorporated cities, not unincorporated townships under the management of trustees. Detroit can't just be like "Hey Troy, we are annexing you and your amazing high end mall."

What about a city-county consolidation with Wayne County?

What about a city-county consolidation with Wayne County?

Detroit proper makes up less than half of the population of Wayne County. It also doesn't take up much of the county itself. Kerry (or others) might be able to correct me on this but in cases of City-County consolidation, I would guess the primary city would make up more of the county.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Wayne_County_Michigan_Incorporated_and_Unincorpora ted_areas_Detroit_highlighted.svg/250px-Wayne_County_Michigan_Incorporated_and_Unincorpora ted_areas_Detroit_highlighted.svg.png

What would happen if Detroit annexed some of the higher income inner suburbs to give them more of a tax base? Would the newly annexed areas go to hell as well or could they help foster a turnaround for the larger city? I believe one of the man reasons OKC isn't Detroit today is its large land area and the fact the some of the most affluent suburban areas are in the city proper. Otherwise, the city core wouldn't have survived the oil bust of the 1980s. MAPS would have never been passed and the city would likely be looking at expanding suburbs and a dead core to this day.

Most of the annexations I have heard of were when the central city was healthier economically/politically than the suburb, it is not in any of the wealthier suburbs interest to have this done now. Maybe after thirty years go by if Detroit can get it's house in order and the suburb declines by having the most wealthy either move to a nicer suburb, relocate to different metro, die or a higher end urban housing.

Before you pounce on the demo work, you also need to examine how the program works, and what structures they are targeting. It's not a blanket project by any means. They aren't targeting a section and dozing randomly.

Step 1- the property has to be deemed abandoned. By the time it reaches that status, it's overgrown, become dilapidated, and is often structurally unsound because of the issues of non-upkeep have caused.
Step 2- Part of the newest form of the program is a notification. The city will post a notification of the site being targeted by the city. The owner then has I believe 72 hours to respond to the notice before they start the process of claiming the structure. Remember that by this point, it's already been left for months or years. Boarded up or broken windows, become a drug house, etc. The goal of this notification effort is not to get the house, but to motivate the owner to do something about it. This new program has seen a high rate of return on the notification side. That doesn't always equate to a "correction", but it's far higher than it once was.
Step 3 - In those situations (which still accounts for 3/4 of them) where either the owner didn't respond or when they responded they chose not to take action (or by inaction) the home is then taken by the city.
Step 4 - This is where the program is taking a new direction. The 100 million for demo is not the dollars I'm speaking of. There was a good piece on NPR last week discussing how the city was able to create a $500 million fund over the next 5 years by shuffling funding around from different apportionments. There was absolute amazement and congratulations given to the financial side for being able to squeeze it together. It's a "pledged" amount at this point because it's to be created over the 5 years, not in a lump sum. These dollars are meant to be spent to help take those homes that the city takes, and decide if they are able to be saved, and if there is an ROI within reach on that home. 500 million isn't that much for a city of that size...you aren't going to be saving those large 10 story apartment buildings with it, but you can save a hundred homes here and there.....seedlings to hopefully help grow something. Because at this point, the property is often in terrible shape, there are few structures that meet the qualifications for the program, but they do exist. I think the statistic I heard was something like 8 out of 35 that was re-habbed from step 2, but since the program is new, there aren't a lot of stats on the remaining 3/4 to say what the city is able to do.

As for the growth boundary, did not the City of Portland create that boundary? Again, only the city can put that in. The state will not sacrifice growth in a suburb to push it to the city. Now would you want the state to be able to have the power to do so. Some people call me a social democrat (remember im registered republican though...LOL), but that sort of interference for the "common good" is a bit much for me. I'd prefer to leave the growth boundaries to the cities. OKC is in a unique, and I would argue better, position that the large land area gives it more power to force the boundary. Often times the growth is within its own borders, so the city would have the ability to push it back in. Like with any boundary, you face the possibility that the people simply move to the other side of the line though...Moore/Edmond/etc. But OKC stands a much better chance of being able to enforce one on its own than DTW, whose land area isn't uncommonly large.

Are you seriously tell me it's okay because the owners have a 72 hour window period to respond and say no don't demo my house? I don't think you realize the full magnitude of abandonment in Detroit. Boston, SF, and Manhattan would all fit inside of Detroit with room to spare and most of it is already emptied out. Midtown Detroit (the Cass Corridor) is the only area with life outside of Downtown.

The bottom line is using signs of life as a parameter for demolition is dangerous. There is no life and you can't demolish it all.

I've never been to Detroit, but have seen quite a bit about it. Not sure how sprawled it is though, but surely it can't be worse than Atlanta, Houston, Jacksonville, OKC, or any other sprawled out cities.

As much as you like to drive you should drive there sometime. It'll blow your mind.

As much as you like to drive you should drive there sometime. It'll blow your mind.

Especially once he gets one of the bubble gum machines behind him. ;)

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7231/7379921610_8cac2467af_z.jpg

Especially once he gets one of the bubble gum machines behind him. ;)

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7231/7379921610_8cac2467af_z.jpgWhat the hell??? lol... is that for real?? 0_o

As much as you like to drive you should drive there sometime. It'll blow your mind.Later this summer, I'm taking a road trip to explore some cities in Texas... once I get my feet wet, I'll start driving other places in the country. I really do want to see Detroit though. I have always been fascinated by the city, well, at least since I saw the movie 8 Mile. :)

What the hell??? lol... is that for real?? 0_o

Yes. Michigan State Troopers all have the bubble gum machine lines still. They are also among some of the worst ones to deal with. I never speed in that state, especially at night. They are permitted to sit in their hiding spots with zero lights on and do not give you any wiggle room.

Are you seriously tell me it's okay because the owners have a 72 hour window period to respond and say no don't demo my house? I don't think you realize the full magnitude of abandonment in Detroit. Boston, SF, and Manhattan would all fit inside of Detroit with room to spare and most of it is already emptied out. Midtown Detroit (the Cass Corridor) is the only area with life outside of Downtown.

The bottom line is using signs of life as a parameter for demolition is dangerous. There is no life and you can't demolish it all.

Spartan - did you read the part about how at that point the place has already been abandoned? How it would have to be sitting in an abandoned state for years and be a public safety issue before they pursue the notice? Just like in OKC, the city doesn't just come in and take a good house, they're targeting abandoned structures. What exactly do you think the demo program is for? Just like in OKC, it's better to remove the problem structures before they collapse. It doesn't take long once a roof starts to drip and windows get busted before the elements start tearing a place apart from the inside...insect infestations like termites. the list goes on and on. I don't think anyone would suggest that the city would come in after the place has sat there even for a year....this is LONG term abandonment. And abandonment to the point where the structure may be hazardous to leave standing.....we've got PLENTY of those in OKC and guess what, the city is making a push to get cracking on demo'ing those as well.

The details make the story and the program, please don't ignore them just because you see the word demo and city together. And if it wasn't legal, don't you think a city with such national attention focused on the efforts, would be making the courts busy from litigation? Oh wait, the owners abandoned the places.....

"Vacant does not equal blighted, and preservation is blight removal, too."

This is little more than urban renewal once again hashed out on diverse communities. There is such architectural and historical merit in Detroit that doesn't exist in OKC. These things therefor are more nuanced than that perspective can provide for.