Well my issue is if a new county jail is approved will this new jail be neglected like the old jail. The old jail is only 22 years old why does is it need to be replaced so fast because it's still a new building. Now in 20 years then an argument can be made about replacing the county jail. Now as for marijuana laws it would be great if the city/county would loosen up a little and decriminalize small amounts of marijuana. That would be the cheapest, easiest, and a common sense solution but I don't see that happening but that is something I'd love to see on a ballot though.
it wasn't due to neglect. From the day it opened it had issues. If memory serves it was built for well under $100 million and they hired someone who hadn't built a jail before. Then there were substandard materials used. Inmates were able to escape thru the glass block windows. The plumbing was designed so inmates could easily flood the lower floors of the building. The list goes on. Why the folks that were responsible (county commissioners etc) for the mess weren't charged and put in the jail is another matter entirely.

I don't know what the answer to your question is, KP. I'm sure you can find it in the FBI's UCR (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/persons-arrested). It claims that in the South, 51.5% of drug arrests are for marijuana possesion. Its not like county is filled to the brim with heroine and meth smugglers. Many drug war prisoners could be released with little harm to society, especially pot smokers.

Here are a few points of clarification that may add some light to your discussion.

- You are correct, it was designed and built by firms that had no business doing it, but this was back in the days of good ole boys, kick backs, etc. I won't go into who did what and who was tied to whom, but the project was designed by HTB and RGDC. HTB went out of business, but there are still many architects and engineers at other firms around town that are descendents. RGDC is now called Triad. All both were rumored back in the day to buy off county commissioners in some form or fashion. Without taking the time to dig through Oklahoman archives, I'm pretty sure that Manhattan built the jail, but they followed the construction drawings as designed and detailed.
The inmates picked through the glass block windows because they were not detailed correctly, no reinforcement in the joints, incorrect mortar, etc. The bottom line is the county picked their good ole boys pals for the job and the AE and contractor selection was not based on qualifications as they typically are today.

- Some of the reasons the project as drug on this long is as follows:
1.) The County Commissioners, specifically, Ray Vaughn who is the main champion on this project, was working closely with the City and the Chamber to navigate the timing of this in regards to the MAPS3 vote. It would have been impossible to pass them all at once, so they collaborated on the matter as they should have. They have an excellent working relationship because what is good for one is obviously good for the other. The plan was to allow the MAPS3 vote first followed by this vote, but the DOJ relaxed the deadline. The county conducted some quiet polling on this as well and they know the likely threshold the citizens will likely not cross. Once the deadline was relaxed, the process slowed down since taxing the public on non-sexy projects like jails is not exactly good for winning the next election.
2.) The DOJ relaxed their deadline because the sheriff was able to correct many of the problems with other funding, enough so to show good faith which the DOJ recognized, thus relaxing the deadline.
3.) Adult detention facilities are designed very differently today, much more of an open plan which reduces staffing needs by a lot, and allows for open sight lines to the inmates. Today’s designs allow the inmates to be out in a secure dayroom with essentially one point of control. The current design has few, or maybe no dayrooms, so the cells open up to open corridors with no security. It takes more staff to control this set up as opposed to the other. A new design would greatly reduce staffing and operational costs. The plumbing was incorrectly detailed as well, which has always been documented and well known.
4.) The reason we do not want the DOJ to ever sweep in and take this over is because they will get it built at whatever cost it takes, according to them, and bill the tax payer. The county would rather control our own destiny and minimize the cost as best as possible by designing and building an efficient facility and one that will stand the test of time.

We have an imperfect judicial system that causes the jail to house people longer than it should, so they always have a high occupancy count, including numerous mental cases that should not be there in the first place. Discussions around the proposed jail would make it one of the larger jails in the country.

I hope that helps some in the discussion.

I don't know what the answer to your question is, KP. I'm sure you can find it in the FBI's UCR (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/persons-arrested). It claims that in the South, 51.5% of drug arrests are for marijuana possesion. Its not like county is filled to the brim with heroine and meth smugglers. Many drug war prisoners could be released with little harm to society, especially pot smokers.

Again, simply an educated guess on my part, but number of arrests for simple mj possession has little to do with number of peeps snoozing their nights away at county.

My basic position on this boils down to two things: self-respect and morality. Incarceration is an experience that erodes people's self-respect, regardless of what they are doing time for. People without self-respect are worthless to society. Morality because it is immoral to allow people to be incarcerated for violation of a law whose best defense is "Not very many people are actually affected by it."

I just hope its not property tax increases that they want topy for it which it most likely will be.

I hope they put this thing over by lotti somewhere the land is cheaper over there anyways

If it happens, I would imagine it will be much further removed from downtown than lotti

Is think the opposite due to transport cost to court and proximity of lawyers for their clients that was the idea behind its current location I do believe.

Is think the opposite due to transport cost to court and proximity of lawyers for their clients that was the idea behind its current location I do believe.

video appearances fix a fair bit of that. proximity for lawyers tends to fall way down the list of considerations to take into account. Cleveland's fairly new facility went out on cheaper land just off I-35 on Franklin, five miles or so removed from the Courthouse. Can't see any major issues thus far.

In some older articles I seem to recall some discussions about the possibility for a new jail ending up nearer to Choctaw than remaining near the core of DT.
That presumes of course the OK CO voters actually approve a new jail.

Probably true.

I'm a no vote until the County can give us some remote idea of what the new facility will look like and where it'll be.

I just hope they change the water fountain on top of the combo urinal/toilet thingy.

Lucca - Great background, thanks!

Regarding transport of prisoners, it was explained to me that there's not much of a difference whether you're transporting across the street or across town. The burden is in processing paperwork, assigning a car and driver, getting them out of their cell and into the car, checked in at the courthouse, in front of the judge, back to the car, etc. The comparative drives of two minutes or twenty are inconsequential.

That said, it seems to make sense to select a cheaper, more remote site while increasing the use of video, and build out office space for lease to bail bondsmen to help offset the expense.

Lucca - Great background, thanks!

Regarding transport of prisoners, it was explained to me that there's not much of a difference whether you're transporting across the street or across town. The burden is in processing paperwork, assigning a car and driver, getting them out of their cell and into the car, checked in at the courthouse, in front of the judge, back to the car, etc. The comparative drives of two minutes or twenty are inconsequential.

That said, it seems to make sense to select a cheaper, more remote site while increasing the use of video, and build out office space for lease to bail bondsmen to help offset the expense.

100% agree ...

Probably true.

I'm a no vote until the County can give us some remote idea of what the new facility will look like and where it'll be.


I am a no vote till they relax the maryjane laws and I am a non smoker of maryjane. But I can tell you right now that there have been more crazy shyt happen when people are drinking booze than when they are smoking weed. The law is insane IMO. I feel that as a law biding adult citizen that if I want to smoke a weed now and then I should have the right to do that without fear of going to jail for who knows how long. Like I said,the maryjane laws are insane and till they change I will not support a dang thing. And I know many many people who feel the same way and I am not even a smoker!

I am a no vote till they relax the maryjane laws and I am a non smoker of maryjane. But I can tell you right now that there have been more crazy shyt happen when people are drinking booze than when they are smoking weed. The law is insane IMO. I feel that as a law biding adult citizen that if I want to smoke a weed now and then I should have the right to do that without fear of going to jail for who knows how long. Like I said,the maryjane laws are insane and till they change I will not support a dang thing. And I know many many people who feel the same way and I am not even a smoker!Ummm well you might be waiting a loooooooong time for that unfortunately. Unless Oklahoma goes through a major political and morals change, we will still see tough laws on weed.

Ummm well you might be waiting a loooooooong time for that unfortunately. Unless Oklahoma goes through a major political and morals change, we will still see tough laws on weed.

Agreed.......
Never gonna happen....at least not in my lifetime.
The states war on MJ is too big of a cash cow.

Thanks OKCTalker.

The county engineer has been looking at sites for a couple of years, and they know exactly what they are looking for.......I do not know the exact sites on their radar, but I think one of the leading options is actually near the airport, not far from the federal transfer facility. They have a set distance in which they do not want the facility to exceed due to cost and time. Typing this now, the distance eludes me, but I think it was 5 - 10 miles. One thing I am pretty sure of is it will not be anywhere close to downtown!
They were also considering combining the juvenile facility with the adult facility because across the nation, votes that include juvenile beds pass more often than adult. My guess is that plan may be out the door today because Chesapeake was once hot for that property it could have been instant cash for the juvenile component.

I am a no vote till they relax the [marijuana] laws...

Pick your battles. These two issues aren't linked, and wishing it so won't make it so.

I am a no vote till they relax the maryjane laws and I am a non smoker of maryjane. But I can tell you right now that there have been more crazy shyt happen when people are drinking booze than when they are smoking weed. The law is insane IMO. I feel that as a law biding adult citizen that if I want to smoke a weed now and then I should have the right to do that without fear of going to jail for who knows how long. Like I said,the maryjane laws are insane and till they change I will not support a dang thing. And I know many many people who feel the same way and I am not even a smoker!

You're going to vote "No" on a County issue because of state and federal laws? Do they still require folks to take a civics class in high school?

Oklahoma County jail plan, sales tax votes put on hold | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-county-jail-plan-sales-tax-votes-put-on-hold/article/3764622)

The decision to delay a vote on the half-cent sales tax comes on the heels of a voter survey, but Ray Vaughn, chairman of the Oklahoma County Board of Commissioners, would not directly attribute the plan's slowdown to the survey results.

I feel pretty comfortable attributing it to the results of a voter survey. As a voter, my question is: So, you screwed it up the first time. "What assurances do we have that you'll do it better the second time?" City money built the first jail. That's money out of all our pockets we'll never get back.

My main problem is at this point in time I trust Oklahoma County government less than Illinois State government. We have to fix the county jail, but will it be done in a responsible manner?

The decision to delay a vote on the half-cent sales tax comes on the heels of a voter survey, but Ray Vaughn, chairman of the Oklahoma County Board of Commissioners, would not directly attribute the plan's slowdown to the survey results.

I feel pretty comfortable attributing it to the results of a voter survey. As a voter, my question is: So, you screwed it up the first time. "What assurances do we have that you'll do it better the second time?" City money built the first jail. That's money out of all our pockets we'll never get back.

City money built the County jail?

the city is in the county

I thought my last sentence would demonstrate that I meant "citizens" with the word "city", not "city government". The phrase "city money" flowed off the keyboard better. Sorry.

Somewhere in OK County, probably near Choctaw, a landowner weeps mightily at a crushed dream.

Somewhere in OK County, probably near Choctaw, a landowner weeps mightily at a crushed dream.

more likely the south east side of the city ..

The decision to delay a vote on the half-cent sales tax comes on the heels of a voter survey, but Ray Vaughn, chairman of the Oklahoma County Board of Commissioners, would not directly attribute the plan's slowdown to the survey results.

I feel pretty comfortable attributing it to the results of a voter survey. As a voter, my question is: So, you screwed it up the first time. "What assurances do we have that you'll do it better the second time?" City money built the first jail. That's money out of all our pockets we'll never get back.

The same assurances we get from City leaders with various promises made and not kept. Just on the County level.

Conventional wisdom on this board was that they were looking for a time when they could have a low turnout vote for this issue. As Midtowner points out about the recent city council elections (or at least that's the point I took from his post in that thread:

No, I don't think it's viable to argue that the voters simply changed their mind. Turnout for these elections is typically very low as they never seem to line up with anything else of import. Compare that to the well publicized city-wide MAPS election. No contest.

The fact is that voters overwhelmingly and in much greater numbers approved the "trust us to do these things" platform. 75,421 voted in the MAPS election, which was won by a 54% majority. James Greiner won 57% of 3,108 votes and John Pettis won 62% of 3,142 votes. Not exactly a mandate.
it really doesn't take a lot of votes to sway a low-turnout election.
Is there any news as to when this item might come up for a vote?

Dubya61: They can hold the election at any time if they are looking for low votes. Single issue, local elections typically result in 15% or less turnout. They have had several years now but keep dragging their collective feet on the issue. As far as I can see there has been very little excuse for the continued delay on the vote ... we were supposed to have voted on this around the time of the MAPS 3 vote!


Midtowner: going by the percentages, the Council elections were notably higher compared to the MAPS 3 vote (MAPS 3 by 54%, James Greiner won 57% but certainly John Pettis won 62%, would be considered a landslide). When looking at those percentages, have to take into account that you are comparing a city wide election with ones that were not. When done on a per capita basis, how do the elections compare? How did those Wards vote in the MAPS 3 election? Maybe they didn't change their minds after all but were reinforcing their original vote. I know that the MAPS election turnout was roughly double for that type of election. But then again, the Council runoff elections, turnout was higher than in the primary (highly unusual)...

The Oklahoma County jail issues are again in the press: Paying for jail problems: County answering to DOJ about corrections deficiencies | The Journal Record (http://journalrecord.com/2013/08/19/paying-for-jail-problems-county-answering-to-doj-about-corrections-deficiencies-law/) Here are the first four paragraphs of this story in the Journal Record:

OKLAHOMA CITY – Within the next few weeks, Oklahoma County commissioners will send a letter to the Department of Justice to explain why the county jail still isn’t up to standards that were required five years ago.

The feds’ response will determine whether – or how – county residents have to deal with a $280 million price tag to build a new jail or adapt the old multistory building near downtown. District 3 Commissioner Ray Vaughn is concerned about the worst-case scenario: a court settlement that would raise property taxes by about 25 percent.

District 2 Commissioner Brian Maughan said he doubts the issue will ever reach that point. Federal officials seem to appreciate the county’s efforts so far, he said, and most of the jail’s problems have been fixed anyway.

Even talking about the possibility of a sales tax-raising lawsuit is largely unnecessary, he said.

This sounds like so much wishful thinking to me by Commissioner Maughan ("Move along - Nothing to see here") - but I wonder if the USDOJ agrees.

The conditions at the jail are inhumane. I'm not hug-a-thug by any stretch of the imagination, but they're 4 to a cell and on lockdown. It's really awful in there.

Agree with the recent posts...supposedly they had most of the problems fixed but the DOJ insisted that they have a plan to fix the rest...they had a plan but never followed thru on it (getting it to a vote), the delaying tactics are only going to go on so far before the DOJ says enough is enough and we are taking over.

i'd rather pay an extra sales tax than a federal mandate due to underfunding for a new facility.

if the feds take over, how does it work, does it mean they will build a new facility or pay for repairs and then hit the city for the bill?

i'd rather pay an extra sales tax than a federal mandate due to underfunding for a new facility.

if the feds take over, how does it work, does it mean they will build a new facility or pay for repairs and then hit the city for the bill?

My understanding is they build a new facility and then give us a bill

My understanding is they build a new facility and then give us a bill

Yeah F that. If you've worked with federal contracts and seen all the fluff and utter waste built into those, you'll want no part of that.

They'll require some paper pushing MBE to supply material on it, which will increase cost of normal material 5%.

There is a reason why contractors who are willing to put up with the BS on federal projects rake in the cash, and it's not because the jobs are efficient and cost effective.

And we did such a great job when we originally built it?

i'd rather pay an extra sales tax than a federal mandate due to underfunding for a new facility.

if the feds take over, how does it work, does it mean they will build a new facility or pay for repairs and then hit the city for the bill?

in theory they would impose higher property taxes .. to replace the facility ... but 2 things

this may or may not even be legal ... and to my knowledge they have never done it before

And we did such a great job when we originally built it?

I never said that, and I'm well aware of the shortfalls of the building. I'm just saying, if the feds build it under federal contract and stick us with the bill, prepare your behind.

That place really does suck. I've seen a lot of clients there and it is dangerous and filthy. You shouldn't be afraid that you'll die when you go to jail for something.

I never said that, and I'm well aware of the shortfalls of the building. I'm just saying, if the feds build it under federal contract and stick us with the bill, prepare your behind.

pahdz - Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you did, and I'm with you on your concern that Jail 2.0 could be a financial fiasco for which taxpayers (sales, property or other) will pay dearly, and may not even provide us with a good solution to this problem. By failing to resolve this issue ourselves and having a solution imposed upon us by the federal government, that puts our elected leaders on a par with Detroit's.

It's going to be tough to convince people that an additional tax will be needed to pay for this, but scaring them with "the feds will do it if we don't" should help.

Enlighten me a bit...aren't most of the problems there because it was a bad design, not because of build quality or neglect? From contractors I've talked to, they say the place was a disaster from the day it opened.

They chose an architecture firm which had never before designed a jail.

It's also much too small for our current population. Right now, it's 4 to a cell and on lockdown 24/7. The current conditions wouldn't even satisfy the Geneva Convention. It's a moral duty, IMHO. Most of the folks in that jail are still presumed innocent.

Mid, I've wondered from time to time, but haven't looked it up anywhere. Any idea what percentages of the OK CO jail are:
Pending court proceedings
Serving time locally
Waiting for transfer to DOC (which its own space available issues)
Serving time in space leased to others

There was an early issue with construction quality or materials because I remember inmates breaking out glass blocks and rapelling down the side to escape.

Mid, I've wondered from time to time, but haven't looked it up anywhere. Any idea what percentages of the OK CO jail are:
Pending court proceedings
Serving time locally
Waiting for transfer to DOC (which its own space available issues)
Serving time in space leased to others

No idea. All I can tell you is that if you're going to commit a crime which will result in your incarceration, do it someplace other than Oklahoma County.

No idea. All I can tell you is that if you're going to commit a crime which will result in your incarceration, do it someplace other than Oklahoma County.

oh, no doubt. indeed, get out of Oklahoma in general. If I were to ever think about a life of crime, I'd look toward Canon City, CO. There are some dang decent facilities there. But ya know. I gotta admit it sometimes feels a tad weird to know as much as I know about such facilities. Fortunately, it's all via visitor status, but it still gets weird at times.

Or how about ADX Supermax at Florence, CO. They may look nice but they are still prisons.

... may look nice but they are still prisons.

Oh, lock down is lock down, no doubt on that. Still, when the question switches from if to where, some jails/prisons are way less prisony than others.

I toured the Colorado State Penitentiary in Cañon City with a church group (technically it was sponsored by Unitarians, so . . .) when I was a kid (c. 1965 or 1966). I actually sat in the metal chair in the old gas chamber. It had a triangle cut in the metal seat in the vicinity of your crotch so that the gas created in the shallow metal bowl under the chair had a clear path to your respiratory system. The whole place--not just the death house--smelled like old boiled cabbage and machine oil. The inmates were creepy. Probably on account of having to follow all of the rules in the little, blue, autographed by the warden (Wayne K. Patterson), rule books. I still have the copy I was given. I think this experience had something to do with why I was very careful never to get caught breaking one sundry law or another.

The Cañon City of yesteryear was NOT the Cañon City of today.
If ever a place was "prisony" that place sure was . . .

I toured the Colorado State Penitentiary in Cañon City with a church group (technically it was sponsored by Unitarians, so . . .) when I was a kid (c. 1965 or 1966). I actually sat in the metal chair in the old gas chamber. It had a triangle cut in the metal seat in the vicinity of your crotch so that the gas created in the shallow metal bowl under the chair had a clear path to your respiratory system. The whole place--not just the death house--smelled like old boiled cabbage and machine oil. The inmates were creepy. Probably on account of having to follow all of the rules in the little, blue, autographed by the warden (Wayne K. Patterson), rule books. I still have the copy I was given. I think this experience had something to do with why I was very careful never to get caught breaking one sundry law or another.

The Cañon City of yesteryear was NOT the Cañon City of today.
If ever a place was "prisony" that place sure was . . .


Back in the 70s I attended a summer camp for boys ran by the monks at holy cross abbey there in Canon City. Occasionally on trips we would pass by the prison and I can still recall that it looked quite imposing.

Leavenworth in KS also screams PRISON!