Not enough of us to matter.....remember? But, if you're one of the ones out of water, the 200,000 crying may help us out!

It's not just the few of us in Canton....It's all of us in western OK, western KS, the TX panhandle.

Now wait a minute, I was at Foss Lake last weekend and it has plenty of water, It's down, and granted not as down as Canton, but Foss is way closer to the Texas panhandle than Canton will ever be.

Canton Lake was a great party lake in the 70s. Slept on the beach more than one night. I guess the bright side is that there's a lot more beach now. That's about the only bright side.

Two Words: "Pet Lawns"
(that is all . . . carry on . . .)

Now wait a minute, I was at Foss Lake last weekend and it has plenty of water, It's down, and granted not as down as Canton, but Foss is way closer to the Texas panhandle than Canton will ever be.

OKC is not drawing from Foss. I think we have 3+ft to go in this draw.


If Mid is right about Canton being just for fishing and boating then I have to agree with him...Now this is coming from a non lake dude but those two reasons aren't exactly life changing

This is not about a little fishing and boating. This is about killing the lake for years, at least 5, maybe 10 or 15. Besides, I would think an entire lake habitat would be as important as watering gutters?

Does it look like Marsha Slaughter can get another 30,000 acre feet from Canton Lake...That's 9,775,542,810 gallons.

I know this is a little late but there are multiple ways to calculate the percentage of water that goes to outdoor use. First, lots of people have irrigation meters so they can directly measure it across a large sample population and extrapolate the data to cover everyone. Second, they know how much water leaves the fresh water source and they know how much material passes through the wastewater system (lift stations, pipe size, flow rates, etc). A good amount of the 'difference' is not used inside the house.

It looks like the new water treatment expansion at Hefner worked like a charm. It drained the lake in record time. $43 million well spent.

If I have learned one thing form this, there are some really greedy heartless people involved who would rather have a green lawn than another man have a job.... pathetic.

Keep trying to justify it in your own minds, you know it's not right. Say what you want about it, if you had a heart, you would know in there it isn't right....

If it was actually for drinking water, and that is what the other 20 Billion gallons you took last year had gone for, no one here would really have an argument. However, when you have squandered what you have already taken, and then come take more without changing any practices...knowing the devastation that it will do to several small communities and entire ecosystem....your math doesn't add up.

I am really curious why you are even here arguing, how many of you actually have a dog in this fight?? How many of you on this thread even get your water from Hefner??? I am willing to bet there are several of the ones here placing the biggest arguments about why we are wrong about wanting to keep our water, and OKC is right to have it....that aren't even affected one way or the other. I bet most of the ones putting up the biggest arguments, don't get their water from Hefner, they just like to argue.....???

See, there you and law go again. The underlying unsupported premise both stated and implied by the various people from Canton who have been posting about it is we (OKC et al) are all wasting vast amounts of water. That we are ignorant of the drought and the surrounding issues. That since the people have done nothing about it, the city should have and didn't. If they had, Canton would be full.

As far as I can tell, all of the above are false.

If I have learned one thing form this, there are some really greedy heartless people involved who would rather have a green lawn than another man have a job.... pathetic.

Keep trying to justify it in your own minds, you know it's not right. Say what you want about it, if you had a heart, you would know in there it isn't right....

If it was actually for drinking water, and that is what the other 20 Billion gallons you took last year had gone for, no one here would really have an argument. However, when you have squandered what you have already taken, and then come take more without changing any practices...knowing the devastation that it will do to several small communities and entire ecosystem....your math doesn't add up.

I am really curious why you are even here arguing, how many of you actually have a dog in this fight?? How many of you on this thread even get your water from Hefner??? I am willing to bet there are several of the ones here placing the biggest arguments about why we are wrong about wanting to keep our water, and OKC is right to have it....that aren't even affected one way or the other. I bet most of the ones putting up the biggest arguments, don't get their water from Hefner, they just like to argue.....???

My guess is part of the reason you got as much argument as you did was because both you and law were at least somewhat abrasive in what seems like the majority of your posts on this matter.

You should not expect a group once it has been derided to be more sympathetic to your cause.

My guess is part of the reason you got as much argument as you did because both you and law were at least somewhat abrasive in what seems like the vast majority of your posts on this matter.

You should not expect a group that is being insulted to be more sympathetic to your cause.

Then I have misjudged the group. I assumed people with full knowledge of the circumstances would never follow this path.

Then I have misjudged the group. I assumed people with full knowledge of the circumstances would never follow this path.

Part of the problem of starting from a position to "Educate" an outside party is education is generally not a discussion, it is most often a lecture entirely from one point of view and uncompromising. To build political support, how it is discussed can be as critical as the subject itself, especially when it is a in matter where two or more groups have different interests, if success is determined by getting both the parties agreeing to something mutually beneficial with time to act quickly in a manor that could have gotten results. Plus this group is still a fairly small sample of people from OKC, the state and people no longer living here; so realistically people would have to be moved pretty strongly to act and convince others to join to be enough to get attention from political leaders.

To give you an idea where my position has been, being someone who is active in watersports on the river/mini-lakes downtown, I have been following levels at Canton for a long time and was pro keeping as much water as possible at Canton since for at least three years it has only been going lower every year but within a page or two of the education campaign I was considering setting the ignore option on both you two.

To give you an idea where my position has been, being someone who is active in watersports on the Oklahoma river, I have been following levels at Canton for a long time and was pro keeping as much water as possible at Canton since for at least three years it has only been going lower every year but within a page or two of the education campaign I was considering setting the ignore option on both you two.This is one of the most reasonable posts in this thread.

The gates were opened, the water is gone, and no amount of crying over spilled milk will put it back in the cow. I agree that the action of OKC officials may well have been rather arrogant. However I'm sure that one of the factors in their haste was the fact that there had been a rain with enough moisture to reduce the amount that would be lost in transit, and waiting a month or more might easily have caused excessive wastage on the way.

In any event, no amount of conservation by everyday folk in OKC is going to help Canton now. Why, then, continue the lecture?

Everyone should do what I've done and just put law and Mark on ignore. It's quite easy...

Well, that will help things a lot if you put us on ignore. We won't be met with so much opposition on trying to spread the word about this dire situation.

Thanks for thinking of that. :-)

We get rid of the naysayers about their actually being a problem, and we can continue to let the readers know there is a problem, a real problem. A problem that doesn't just concern the people of Canton, but also the people of OKC, or at least the 200k who rely on Canton Lake water. Although I think this drought could affect everyone in the metro before it's over.

Again, since non of the main posters who have been in such opposition answered my question I am guessing they don't use Hefner water as their water source for their homes like I asked, and they were...simply here...to argue.

Why keep up the comments since the gates are open and the water is already on it's way?? Why keep pushing for conservation by the people who actually are the end users of Canton lake water?? That's an easy one... we may on the outside chance get some rain this spring out west, they aren't calling for much but it could happen. If it does happen, then we would love to be able to keep that water in Canton Lake to keep the fish alive. Not to float boats or ride wave runners, we are resigned to the fact that this summer is probably a bust as far as that form of recreation goes. However the long term adverse effects of the fish dying could be removed from this equation if spring rain water could be kept in Canton, so we continue to post. If not this year perhaps we get rain fall that puts 30,000 acre feet of water in Canton next year, we would love to be able to hang on to that water as long as possible also and Marsha Slaughter has already said she will take it....so we continue to try and raise awareness.

I try to learn something from every situation and good or bad I try to take something away from experiences in life. I learned that while I feel you can get an education in common everyday discourse, as I have done many times just in visiting with people, "educate" appears to have been a poor choice of words on my part. Some intelligent people may take offense to being "educated" by others about a situation so they flip the ignore button on their chat feed. A much better phrase to use would have been to "raise awareness to our situation and conservation". That is what I will be doing going forward. I will be trying to "raise awareness" about it in hopes that in future days we will have a better result.

I would like to say that I respect Snowman for always coming with facts and reason and not malice. Some of the tone of the writing on here by others who showed no empathy probably led to more abrasiveness on all parts than was healthy or necessary. I would note at this time while Snowman had educated himself about the lake levels in Canton because it had a direct impact on his hobbies, he is certainly in the minority on that. This blog is just one avenue I use to converse with people everyday about this situation and most of them from the metro area have or had no clue of the impact until we began speaking with them on the subject.

I apologize to any I've offended except the few who were offensive at every turn with their statements and remarks. Of course I don't have to worry about them seeing my apology because they have all ignored me. :-)

Have a great day all!

Again, since non of the main posters who have been in such opposition answered my question
!

Where are your facts about wasted water use in OKC, Mark? The city says our use is below average. You dispute that and claim all we are doing is watering our streets because you don't want to believe. Not because of facts.

Law:
I would think an entire lake habitat would be as important as watering gutters?

You:

However, when you have squandered what you have already taken,

How much water goes in the street? How did you determine that? Facts, Mark.

Thanks for setting me straight Boo- whiny people in the Village. does that work. Point is, OKC has imperiled the health of Canton Lake rather than come up with a water conservation plan. The release wasn't necessary at this time. OKC wanted to make sure they got theirs, screw Canton. Greedy short sighted leadership in OKC.

People in the Village don't waste water, but they don't do it because they care about Canton. They don't waste water because they can't afford to or have better things to do with their money.

Snowman,
I have a serious question and I promise it's heartfelt, and I am seriously seeking knowledge on this issue and not baiting or arguing. You seem to have a lot of knowledge and facts about this from that end. You stated that you are into water sports and that you have been keeping an eye on Canton Lake level for sometime as it affects the mini lakes and river downtown that you use. In the video the councilman claims, and they all agreed that "Canton water doesn't go to fill the river downtown". I'm confused?? Do you think they are saying that "this" release won't go there, or what? I am honestly asking a serious question here, you know more about the details of what happens with the water once it's there than I do.

Thanks

If it was actually for drinking water, and that is what the other 20 Billion gallons you took last year had gone for, no one here would really have an argument. However, when you have squandered what you have already taken, and then come take more without changing any practices...knowing the devastation that it will do to several small communities and entire ecosystem....your math doesn't add up.

Canton is a town of 620 or so people. If you built an economy based upon a lake which was pledged to another city for drought relief and was that city's cheapest first option, bad on you.


I am really curious why you are even here arguing, how many of you actually have a dog in this fight??

I'm having a tall glass of Canton/Hefner water right now.

Where are your facts about wasted water use in OKC, Mark? The city says our use is below average. You dispute that and claim all we are doing is watering our streets because you don't want to believe. Not because of facts.

Law:

You:


How much water goes in the street? How did you determine that? Facts, Mark.

Jeeves, I honestly have no way of knowing that. Last time I checked, they weren't putting water meters on gutters to register wasted water in big cities.

I know that I don't trust a word that proceeds from the mouth of Marsha Slaughter or many of the other officials there in charge of this situation and that is what you are basing your argument on....they told you the City was below avg in water consumption, certainly doesn't mean it's true! Have you gone looking to prove or disprove that??

I know what I have seen with my own eyes, and many others have reported seeing with theirs. Water running down the streets and gutters being wasted. Pouring off of lawns in the dead of winter when it was of little benefit to be sprinkled there in the first place. I know that when the devastation that is being done to my friends and neighbors is so great, that even a thousand gallons wasted is too much, yet we both know much more than that has poured down the drains.

Are you going to try and tell me that OKC is doing everything they can to preserve water? That there is no room for improvement?? That when you look at Canton Lake and results of what is happening there, that you think that everything is being done that can be done?

Again, for the third time... do you get your water for your home from Hefner or are you just here to argue?

Exactly. Your entire acerbic eduction campaign is based not on facts, but on supposition and anecdote. Blind supposition and anecdote.

If you could do one thing to help yourself it would be to get armed with some facts, if you can find any to support your position.

Yes, my home and my business are in NW OKC. I probably live closer to the dry lake Overholser than you live to the dry lake Canton. I can see the dam from the street in front of my house. (BTW...All the water in Canton would have flowed through Overholser were it not dammed at Canton or redirected to Hefner. Overholser was built before Canton. So who's water is it again?)

Well my fellow citizens I sadly see a lot of wasted water in our great city. Reading all these posts is interesting on both sides of this argument. I'm going to have to call it as I see it. Those people at Canton have taken a risk in investing for profit on a flood control water supply lake. So has the City of OKC and private businesses on Lake Hefner. Our tax dollars are being spent by the City of Oklahoma City on boat slips, running trails, and probably things I am not even aware of. So what is the difference ? Good grief quit bickering about it. Lets get to the water conservation plan mentioned last week at the City board meeting. If you are not conserving you are wasting.

Well my fellow citizens I sadly see a lot of wasted water in our great city. Reading all these posts is interesting on both sides of this argument. I'm going to have to call it as I see it. Those people at Canton have taken a risk in investing for profit on a flood control water supply lake. So has the City of OKC and private businesses on Lake Hefner. Our tax dollars are being spent by the City of Oklahoma City on boat slips, running trails, and probably things I am not even aware of. So what is the difference ? Good grief quit bickering about it. Lets get to the water conservation plan mentioned last week at the City board meeting. If you are not conserving you are wasting.

Amen!

Awesome, thanks for the photos.

Exactly. Your entire acerbic eduction campaign is based not on facts, but on supposition and anecdote. Blind supposition and anecdote.

If you could do one thing to help yourself it would be to get armed with some facts, if you can find any to support your position.

Yes, my home and my business are in NW OKC. I probably live closer to the dry lake Overholser than you live to the dry lake Canton. I can see the dam from the street in front of my house. (BTW...All the water in Canton would have flowed through Overholser were it not dammed at Canton or redirected to Hefner. Overholser was built before Canton. So who's water is it again?)

Good point, I will work on getting some facts. Thank you. Darn you sending me back to google to look up "acerbic".... you should submit for the O'reilly Factor word of the day if your not already a writer for them... You have a fabulous vocabulary. I'm honestly very impressed. I hate arguing with people who are smarter than me, it lessens my chances of being effective. :-) Have a good day Jeeves. At the end of the day we are all Oklahoman's and I wish my fellow states people no ill will. God bless.

Good point, I will work on getting some facts. Thank you. Darn you sending me back to google to look up "acerbic".... you should submit for the O'reilly Factor word of the day if your not already a writer for them... You have a fabulous vocabulary. I'm honestly very impressed. I hate arguing with people who are smarter than me, it lessens my chances of being effective. :-) Have a good day Jeeves. At the end of the day we are all Oklahoman's and I wish my fellow states people no ill will. God bless.

As dedicated as you seem to be to this, here's another suggestion. Take a clue from the Daily Oklahoman. Figure out what documents OKC may have that contain the information you want to know, like how much water we use per household, per business, how much can probably be reasonably saved through what conservation measures, etc. How much is budgeted for education about water conservation and where that money goes. What the plans would be if we had a critical shortage of water. They have done work on this in house and have hired consultants and the consultants have given them reports. Do a freedom of information request for those documents. They aren't going to do research for you but they can be required to give you copies of a lot of what they have. Plan to pay them for making you copies. Don't just do it to be a nuisance and waste their time. When you find out the facts, if you aren't satisfied they are taking the right approach, then what is the right approach? Maybe that's a bigger project than you. Get your community to help by hiring your own consultant to assist.

Or just make a bunch of noise, point fingers at everyone and have people give you little respect.

As dedicated as you seem to be to this, here's another suggestion. Take a clue from the Daily Oklahoman. Figure out what documents OKC may have that contain the information you want to know, like how much water we use per household, per business, how much can probably be reasonably saved through what conservation measures, etc. How much is budgeted for education about water conservation and where that money goes. What the plans would be if we had a critical shortage of water. They have done work on this in house and have hired consultants and the consultants have given them reports. Do a freedom of information request for those documents. They aren't going to do research for you but they can be required to give you copies of a lot of what they have. Plan to pay them for making you copies. Don't just do it to be a nuisance and waste their time. When you find out the facts, if you aren't satisfied they are taking the right approach, then what is the right approach? Maybe that's a bigger project than you. Get your community to help by hiring your own consultant to assist.

Or just make a bunch of noise, point fingers at everyone and have people give you little respect.

Again, thank you. I will work on that and we have an entire team in place to do so. My last statement to you was very sincere, not meant to be snarky. That is the one thing I hate about the written word vs the spoken word, so much can be read into statements in type that was never intended. Have a good day.

At the end of the day we are all Oklahoman's and I wish my fellow states people no ill will. God bless.You're not alone in being skeptical of any statements by OKC officials. They seem always to be saying what they think the public wants to hear, rather than trying to give us facts about serious situations.

As Jeeves pointed out, the water in that stream now known as the Oklahoma River comes directly from the dam at Lake Overholser, which in turn is fed by the North Canadian, which has come from Canton. Any statement that "no Canton water feeds the Oklahoma River" is obviously untrue on its face; the diversion to Hefner cannot prevent at least a few drops from moving on downstream...

And at least a little outdoor watering is necessary, even in winter, during these drouth conditions. Much of the ground beneath our homes is a clay composition that shrinks as it dries, causing serious foundation problems. My own rule is to watch the edges of the foundation slab, and when the ground pulls away from it, water the area to prevent such damage. Currently this amounts to one or at most two watering sessions per week -- and even so the ground shifts enough to cause a few difficulties with sticking doors as the slab shifts by tiny fractions of an inch.

I don't see my neighbors -- all of whom are on Hefner lines -- wasting water either. I do see city crews working to repair broken mains, however, and flushing hundreds of gallons of the precious stuff down the streets.

Rather than preaching to the choir, it might be more productive to organize a pressure group and lobby the state legislature to outlaw such agreements as those made by OKC. None of this effort, of course, will help the immediate future, but it might improve matters in the long term. Otherwise, those who refuse to learn from history are always doomed to repeat it -- and we've still got a way to go before we repeat 1936-38. Growing up in Elk City during those times, I never learned to swm; there were no pools at all, and no pet lawns either...

The deal about the Oklahoma river might be factually true, but the end result is the same and it sounds like PR bull. They said water from the Canton release is not used to fill the river, only runoff from rains are used. That might be true, if it rains between here and Canton in the watershed that feeds the river below Overholser, or it feeds into Overholser and the water is flowed through to the Oklahoma River.

But if there's any water in the Oklahoma River that could have been flowed into Hefner, the end result is the same, we might as well have taken the water from Canton to fill the river. We don't know the answer to that. Could any of that water in the river be used for other purposes?

There's a gage just below the dam at 10th street that has data online at USGS. The actual flow through the Overholser dam gates might be available online too. If not, the city has that information somewhere.

The deal about the Oklahoma river might be factually true, but the end result is the same and it sounds like PR bull. They said water from the Canton release is not used to fill the river, only runoff from rains are used. That might be true, if it rains between here and Canton in the watershed that feeds the river below Overholser, or it feeds into Overholser and the water is flowed through to the Oklahoma River.

But if there's any water in the Oklahoma River that could have been flowed into Hefner, the end result is the same, we might as well have taken the water from Canton to fill the river. We don't know the answer to that. Could any of that water in the river be used for other purposes?

There's a gage just below the dam at 10th street that has data online at USGS. The actual flow through the Overholser dam gates might be available online too. If not, the city has that information somewhere.

It would help if someone could shed some light on how many acre feet it takes to fill the river. It could be a number that is insignificant. I have no doubt that the river could be filled back up using spring rain runoff alone if the gates our closed sometime in the next month.

The old, "I'm not using it for that" excuse. Mkjeeves is exactly right.

Snowman,
I have a serious question and I promise it's heartfelt, and I am seriously seeking knowledge on this issue and not baiting or arguing. You seem to have a lot of knowledge and facts about this from that end. You stated that you are into water sports and that you have been keeping an eye on Canton Lake level for sometime as it affects the mini lakes and river downtown that you use. In the video the councilman claims, and they all agreed that "Canton water doesn't go to fill the river downtown". I'm confused?? Do you think they are saying that "this" release won't go there, or what? I am honestly asking a serious question here, you know more about the details of what happens with the water once it's there than I do.

Thanks

When I first started looking into the upstream river, tributaries and lakes it was to see what was going on with the status of trying to improve the quality of the water (which has some room to improve) and if there was anything I could get involved with that. With the levels being much more popular than the environmental studies/reports they are hard to miss while searching the the corps website for new data even when that was not yet a concern. After a while I just started checking them too when I would look for updates, as the drought started/went on I paid more attention to all the lake levels that were any source of water for OKC and when it rained which catchment areas were hit/missed.

On some level their statement about it not used for the river might be able to be rationalized but I think it has flaws if it was meant to imply none of the water wound up there in the past, while standard operating procedure for releases does collect the bulk in Overholser and Hefner. From what I had heard the standard release from Canton comes in two waves, the first is a smaller flushing primarily to clean junk along the way and will not be stopped at Overholser, unless the rain we got before the release was considered strong enough to do that job I have no reason to believe the Corps of Engineers would do it differently this time (I would be surprised though if a city councilman did know all the details of how the corps of engineers did things though). While this would be a small fraction of the release, given there probably would have been just as much junk flow in from OKC's storm water system into the river since they want to time it with a heavy local rain to get a decent yield, I would bet they do not let it pass through the river dams and just run the boat on the river that collect floating debris a little longer. Also even if the numbers indicate that every drop could be accounted with local rain over a period of a month/quarter/year, there was at least one time I think in 2010 where there was at least 10% to 20% of the volume of water in Overholser was still from Canton when they refilled one of the river basins after a malfunction had drained it.

Since there has been construction soon to be completed in the east river basin, it is entirely drained and the city has stated that no water will be released from Overholser to either fill it or top off the others. With it being the lowest of the three river dams (which all have similar volumes) and it being the one used the most during the year, the plan is to move water from one or both of the other river basins that contain water to it and hope they refill with runoff.

For reference to some other posts, the entire combined volume of the all three basins of the river is less than the volume of one inch of depth at either Hefner or Overholser when near normal levels.

Rather than preaching to the choir, it might be more productive to organize a pressure group and lobby the state legislature to outlaw such agreements as those made by OKC.

Yikes no. Big cities have to procure water from somewhere. Canton, even without its lake can still water their yards and fill their swimming holes. OKC without Canton might not be able to do that. I think the legislature realizes that OKC and Tulsa need storage rights outside of their own boundaries.

Yikes no. Big cities have to procure water from somewhere. Canton, even without its lake can still water their yards and fill their swimming holes. OKC without Canton might not be able to do that. I think the legislature realizes that OKC and Tulsa need storage rights outside of their own boundaries.

Look,Ok. has many Indian Tribes. Can we not get some of these good folks to do a rain dance at Canton,Overholser and Hefner,throw in the river also. Some may not believe in these types of things but back in the day this is what farmers relied upon.:o

Hey,anything's worth a shot at this point. I would moon dance naked across the Overholser bridge if I thought it would do any good but since I am not Indian I don't think it would help. Prob just get me arrested.

I know this is a serious topic but folks need to lighten up. Spring rains are coming and lakes will be full again...

We just aren't sure which spring...... :-o

Yikes no. Big cities have to procure water from somewhere. Canton, even without its lake can still water their yards and fill their swimming holes. OKC without Canton might not be able to do that. I think the legislature realizes that OKC and Tulsa need storage rights outside of their own boundaries.


I don't have a problem with them having storage rights at Canton, I just wish there were some safe guards in place for drought conditions so that the lake could not be pulled to an unsafe or detrimental level. I wish that the contract was for 60,000 acre feet and not 90,000. If the last 30,000 acre feet could be left in the lake it would be better for all involved in the long run.

Yikes no. Big cities have to procure water from somewhere.But organizing and maintaining such a pressure group would be "doing something" about the situation -- and with a legislature that seems unable to get much of anything through the stalemate between its two houses, the odds of getting any kind of measure passed, much less signed into law by the governor, are somewhere far south of those for winning the Powerball... Seems like it could be a win-win solution!

And, more seriously, such a group might be able to get a much wider audience for its message, than the handful of folk following this thread...

Okay,

The forecast has about 6 - 8 inches of snow for the Canton drainage basin tonight and tomorrow. Not sure how much moisture it will contain, but it can't hurt.

When are the gates at canton supposed to close?

Okay,

The forecast has about 6 - 8 inches of snow for the Canton drainage basin tonight and tomorrow. Not sure how much moisture it will contain, but it can't hurt.

Which will soak into the ground exactly where it falls.

Which will soak into the ground exactly where it falls.

That's the best time to take the Canton water!

That's the best time to take the Canton water!

Canton Lake is filled with ground water? I thought it was filled mostly with run off. It can take upto 20 years for ground water to make it's way to a spring.

Mostly run off. Built for flood control.

Canton Lake is filled with ground water? I thought it was filled mostly with run off. It can take upto 20 years for ground water to make it's way to a spring.

That's too bad cause 20 years from now, this thread will be 1,680 pages worth of constant bickering.

That's too bad cause 20 years from now, this thread will be 1,680 pages worth of constant bickering.

Well if I am the OKC water dept. or whoever decides on taking our Canton water I would go ahead and take it right now while the ground is saturated with all the snow. Since OKC own the water and they are gonna take it they might as well fill Hefner up now. Kinda sad seeing all those sail boats docked with no water under them. Fill Hefner now and if we get a ton of rain this spring we can send some back.

... Fill Hefner now and if we get a ton of rain this spring we can send some back.

There are not any pumps in place to send it back up in elevation to Canton. Unless you mean in bottles or jugs.

There are not any pumps in place to send it back up in elevation to Canton. Unless you mean in bottles or jugs.

Maybe s/he was thinking of hundreds of helicopters with those water balloons toted below them.

ground water

I think someone might have said something about this upthread but if they did or not, here's what I tripped across today:

Abstract:

Water levels have declined in the southern part of the High Plains aquifer of the central USA since the mid-1960s in response to extensive irrigation development. The North Canadian River originates in western Oklahoma, and most of the basin is underlain by the High Plains aquifer. Average river flow in the headwaters near Guymon, Oklahoma, has decreased from about 0.9 m3/s before 1970 to near zero at present. Canton Lake, on the North Canadian River near Seiling, about 250 km downstream from Guymon, is a source of water supply for Oklahoma City. Precipitation data and streamflow data for gages upstream from Canton Lake were divided into an "early" period ending in 1971 and a "recent" period that begins in 1978. The early period represents conditions before ground-water levels had declined appreciably in the High Plains aquifer, and the recent period reflects the current condition, including the effects of storage reservoirs. Tests for trend and comparisons of flows between the early and recent periods show that the total annual volume of flow and the magnitudes of instantaneous annual peak discharges measured at most locations in the North Canadian River basin have decreased. Precipitation records for the area, however, show no corresponding changes. The decreases in average annual flow, expressed as a percentage of the average flows for the early period, ranged from 91 percent near Guymon to 37 percent near Canton Lake. A major contributing factor in the decreased flows appears to be the large declines in water levels in the High Plains aquifer.

Changes in flow in the upper North Canadian river basin of western Oklahoma, pre-development to 2000 (/publication/70023420)



As far as filling the Oklahoma River from Overholser/Canton, there are published reports on the USGS site showing flow from Overholser as measured at the gage .5 miles downstream of the Overholser dam. Located at this link (the "site" is 07241000): Water Resources of the United States—2011 Annual Water Data Reports Search (/wy2011/search.jsp)

The "2010" report runs from Oct 2009 to September 2010 and when I added up the monthly totals it looks like they flowed 85,076 acre feet for that year. (Acre feet data are on the second page, bottom of the first chart.) A good bit of that was in May, June and July of 2010. The "2011" report runs from October 2010 to September 2011 and says they flowed 5838 acre feet. Most of that was in December 2010, January and February of 2011. (I think the Canton release was Oct. 2011.) The official 2011/2012 report isn't on the site yet.

In any case, we can keep an eye on both the Oklahoma River level, the gage flow data online, and the actual flow out of the Overholser dam and see what happens, especially when the time approaches that people would be wanting to boat and run cruises on the Oklahoma River.

I drove over the river yesterday and it was dry dry dry. Are they working on the east dam?

Oklahoma City water woes a concern for Norman » Headlines » The Norman Transcript (http://normantranscript.com/headlines/x1525010110/Oklahoma-City-water-woes-a-concern-for-Norman)

Maybe s/he was thinking of hundreds of helicopters with those water balloons toted below them.

I figure if they put in a long garden hose and hook one of those little giant pumps up to it then eventually the water will get back to Canton. Might take a few days to fill the lake up so the electric bill might be a little higher but the main thing here is making sure Canton lake has enough water to serve us here in NW OKC when we need it.

How long would it take if 1.25 mil. people in the okc area each filled up a gallon milk jug full of water (out of Hefner of course} and drove to Canton lake and dumped it in? We could all meet at Hefner with our jugs and galoop galoop galoop and then run up to Canton and make the big dump. I bet it would make the news.

I drove over the river yesterday and it was dry dry dry. Are they working on the east dam?[/QUOTE]

I know they are doing some repairs to the east river basin of the Oklahoma river but not exactly sure what they are repairing.

I figure if they put in a long garden hose and hook one of those little giant pumps up to it then eventually the water will get back to Canton. Might take a few days to fill the lake up so the electric bill might be a little higher but the main thing here is making sure Canton lake has enough water to serve us here in NW OKC when we need it.

How long would it take if 1.25 mil. people in the okc area each filled up a gallon milk jug full of water (out of Hefner of course} and drove to Canton lake and dumped it in? We could all meet at Hefner with our jugs and galoop galoop galoop and then run up to Canton and make the big dump. I bet it would make the news.

Sarcasm aside, each of those 1,250,000 people would have to take 5,400 trips just to fill Canton back up with what we have received from the lake during this 2 week fill-up.

What seems concerning is that Canton and Hefner - not to mention other lakes - have been low for years. Water rationing and conservation should be a priority when the lakes first start to go down noticeably - say 10-15% - regardless of the season or how much rain is falling. The best time to ration is when it is raining, the demand is decreased and the oppurtunity to increase storage is maximized. Even if Hefner seems 'full', rationing should have started the moment it was evident that Canton was down several feet at the end of a wet season. It is a lot easier to ration when there is rain.
Since the aquifer has been drawn down and it does decrease the flow of the N. Canadian, then conservation steps should be increased all the time. It will be harder to fill Canton from seasonal moisture. What happens to Canton today will happen to Hefner tomorrow. In order to save Hefner, we have to start treating Canton with equal concern and realize that it, and the communities it supports, is part of the solution in long term health of the entire system. While it may be possible for Canton to fluxuate a little so that the 'show' lake of Hefner stays full - the drawn down should not allowed to go below a certain depth before severe measures are taken to maintain the pool. I guarantee if people we forced to water from backyard cisterns, they would pay attention to how much they water each day.

One thing that can be done, which a few years ago the state did a test on a 10 mile stretch up by Woodward IIRC, is remove the cedar trees along the river. The cedars suck the water right out of the river banks, which is detrimental to the flow of water in the river. Programs like that could be done along the waterways that flow into the basin and have a positive impact towards conservation.

One thing that can be done, which a few years ago the state did a test on a 10 mile stretch up by Woodward IIRC, is remove the cedar trees along the river. The cedars suck the water right out of the river banks, which is detrimental to the flow of water in the river. Programs like that could be done along the waterways that flow into the basin and have a positive impact towards conservation.

What are the impacts on wildlife and local ecosystems when we remove trees from along the river bank?

What are the impacts on wildlife and local ecosystems when we remove trees from along the river bank?

They will be returned closer to normal since the trees being removed are not indigenous to the area.

Federal, State Funding Available to Fight Eastern Red Cedars - Farm Progress (http://farmprogress.com/story-federal-state-funding-available-fight-eastern-red-cedars-9-59537)


"Redcedar is an invasive species in Oklahoma and it can reduce wildlife habitat and reduce forage availability for livestock, and in extreme cases it can cause erosion problems when it reduces forage grasses for groundcover," says Kenny Hitch, NRCS resource specialist for programs.

http://farmprogress.com/cdfm/Faress1/author/2/federal_state_funding_available_fight_eastern_red_ cedars_1_634717204841785766.jpg
INVASIVE TREE: Eastern red cedar is an invasive plant in Oklahoma that costs millions in forage and ground water losses. Funds are available to help eradicate it on your property.

I'm thinking the OKC planners are looking smarter all of the time. The timing to allow as much water as possible to reach Hefner from the release seems to have been perfect.

They will be returned closer to normal since the trees being removed are not indigenous to the area.

Federal, State Funding Available to Fight Eastern Red Cedars - Farm Progress (http://farmprogress.com/story-federal-state-funding-available-fight-eastern-red-cedars-9-59537)

Awesome. If they are causing harm to the environment and sucking up water, get rid of them.

Awesome. If they are causing harm to the environment and sucking up water, get rid of them.
they are awful. They burn hotter than hell and drink up all the water.

They will be returned closer to normal since the trees being removed are not indigenous to the area.

Federal, State Funding Available to Fight Eastern Red Cedars - Farm Progress (http://farmprogress.com/story-federal-state-funding-available-fight-eastern-red-cedars-9-59537)


Far worse for the water course, than the Eastern Red Cedar, is the 'Salt Cedar' : Gallery of Problem Species (http://www.ok-invasive-plant-council.org/speciesprofiles/TAMAR2.html)

Kind of weird how the government pays to remove invader species that soak up too much water, but then requires/allows large yards for every single family home and a landscape buffer around every commercial development.