Sorry, I should have worded it differently. I meant you should find out more about your own water situation. Not Canton Lake's water situation.

I know it’s controversial….. but we probably need to take a hard look at cloud seeding.

No, no, no, just no.

Cloud seeding would be great -- if it worked. However the moisture has to be present in the clouds to start with, and the seeding can only trigger its release a bit sooner than it would happen if left to nature. That is, seeding over west Texas might release the rain there rather than letting it move on up to the Canton watershed before falling. And it might not; we tried it pretty consistently several decades ago, and found that it was less than 50% effective. OTOH, tribal rain dances seem to have had more consistent results!

Washing the car, scheduling picnics, securing golf tee-times, and scheduling the Arts Festival and State Fair all seem to be excellent at making it rain. Perhaps the Arts Festival needs to be moved to NW OK this spring?

You should do a little research. The inactive pool is EXACTLY that, INACTIVE!

Here's the definition: Dead or inactive storage refers to water in a reservoir that cannot be drained by gravity through a dam's outlet works, spillway or power plant intake and can only be pumped out. Dead storage allows sediments to settle which improves water quality

It is not available. You do not and cannot "OWN" it. NO ONE IS KEEPING ANYTHING FROM YOU! There is not enough water in the inactive pool to help you. If the inactive pool would keep the fish alive, there wouldn't be the same complaints. Everything I have told you is true. You will drain this lake to inactive, and without rains above Canton there will be no more from Canton for Hefner.


Conservation pool is 34.12% full. Pray for rain.

I don't need to do any research at all. I understand exactly what inactive means and it does not change my point in the least that you were exaggerating what you said. Please reread what I said to you. Even if it cannot be drained out or go over a spillway it is still water in the lake and has to be counted before you can say:


It is a basic math, since 1/3 is 33.3%, therefore Canton is almost 2/3rds empty.

Again, I'm not saying you should not have any concerns. I'm just saying that you are using incorrect information.

Just enough water for the dead fish to float in.

How many millions of gallons of water are just in the water pipes, toilet tanks, and hotwater heaters around OKC? How many miles of fire hydrant pipe are there and how many gallons does it take to fill them?

I had business in Taloga today so I made a trip by the lake on the way back. Looks like tourism possibilities were impacted a long time before now. The swimming beach and campground at the NE end of the dam is several hundred yards from water and the boat ramp at the southwest end is pretty far from water. I didn't drive all the way around. (I understand the concerns voiced about further reductions in the water level killing the fish population.)

How long has it been since the lake was at the normal level for any length of time? (Whatever normal is, considering it's stated functions as flood control and water storage.)

What's funny is that if you look at the "time travel" option on Google Earth and go back to 1995...Canton was lower then than it is now. I gotta guess law and Fuqua were mailing letters to the City of OKC way back then since the internet was a baby.

What's funny is that if you look at the "time travel" option on Google Earth and go back to 1995...Canton was lower then than it is now. I gotta guess law and Fuqua were mailing letters to the City of OKC way back then since the internet was a baby.

I can't honestly tell exactly what your tone is because it's in type, but based on some of your past comments I assume you are trying your hand at being a comedian or poking fun at us and our situation. I can tell you that I don't see anything "funny" about this situation and I assure you that if it was your business, or your job or family affected by this, you wouldn't see anything funny about it either. You seem to only be interested in arguing and not solving or helping anything. You don't seem interested in truth or facts surrounding this situation. This is real life devastating stuff for a lot of people, and the insensitivity of your comments shows me where your heart is, and it isn't in making this situation any better. Someday this may directly affect you, maybe sooner than you think if you are one of the 200K people that depend on water from Hefner for your home. Then maybe you will be less interested in insulting LAW and I, and more interested in why you don't have any water as we warned you was coming. The lake may have been lower then, but it certainly wasn't as low in 95' as it's going to be when this water draw is complete. At the end of this release the lake will be at it's lowest level since 1951. All LAW and I are trying to accomplish, is to open the eyes of the people to how severe this situation is and that it could have been prevented or at least greatly postponed if the people in power would have done their jobs and educated the folks.

Its lower today than when that image was taken. Pool elevation was 1605.99 on February 16, 1995. Today it is at 1604.81. I wish the data went back before November 94 because it was 1604.86 on the first day of November 94. This is probably close to the low point during the drought during this period of time. The lake rapidly recovered in the spring of 95.
Monthly Charts for Canton Lake (http://www.swt-wc.usace.army.mil/CANTcharts.html)

I had business in Taloga today so I made a trip by the lake on the way back. Looks like tourism possibilities were impacted a long time before now. The swimming beach and campground at the NE end of the dam is several hundred yards from water and the boat ramp at the southwest end is pretty far from water. I didn't drive all the way around. (I understand the concerns voiced about further reductions in the water level killing the fish population.)

How long has it been since the lake was at the normal level for any length of time? (Whatever normal is, considering it's stated functions as flood control and water storage.)

I honestly can't answer that with certainty. I believe it's been a couple of years since all boat ramps were open. Currently there is only one open and it's soon to be closed. You can only get a shallow floating, light weight boat off of it now anyway. I think we were fairly full before the two 30,000 acre feet draws that happened in 2011. We never got enough rain out west to build any of that water back to the pool. With evaporation loss in the heat and wind it was an ugly summer.

I thank you for taking the time to view the lake and get a first hand look with your own eyes at our dire situation. I keep running into people from the city who think they are taking water from a "full" lake and they don't realize it will basically drain the lake to the bottom.

Tourism is down like you mention, but if they kill all the fish in the lake, it will be down for years and years.....with little hope for fishermen to return anytime in the near future....
Thanks again.

Here's some panos of what it looked like around noon today. (34% or so full plus the inactive?) I would like to have gotten one of the swimming/camping area at the north end of the dam but there isn't a good place to pull off or stand at a good elevation.

mkjeeves's Photosynths - Photosynth (http://photosynth.net/userprofilepage.aspx?user=mkjeeves&content=Synths)

I wonder how deep that "river" of water is leading to the dam. Canton doesn't seem like your the typical lake. Im use to the deepest part being right at the dam.

Edit: Probably shouldn't have put quotes around river. Its the North Canadian river.

I can't honestly tell exactly what your tone is because it's in type, but based on some of your past comments I assume you are trying your hand at being a comedian or poking fun at us and our situation. I can tell you that I don't see anything "funny" about this situation and I assure you that if it was your business, or your job or family affected by this, you wouldn't see anything funny about it either. You seem to only be interested in arguing and not solving or helping anything. You don't seem interested in truth or facts surrounding this situation. This is real life devastating stuff for a lot of people, and the insensitivity of your comments shows me where your heart is, and it isn't in making this situation any better. Someday this may directly affect you, maybe sooner than you think if you are one of the 200K people that depend on water from Hefner for your home. Then maybe you will be less interested in insulting LAW and I, and more interested in why you don't have any water as we warned you was coming. The lake may have been lower then, but it certainly wasn't as low in 95' as it's going to be when this water draw is complete. At the end of this release the lake will be at it's lowest level since 1951. All LAW and I are trying to accomplish, is to open the eyes of the people to how severe this situation is and that it could have been prevented or at least greatly postponed if the people in power would have done their jobs and educated the folks.

Regardless of whatever my tone may be (and I was being serious about the Google Earth view), you have no right to assume that all of us here in OKC don't give a crap about your situation. You people started businesses in association with a lake that was created for flood control, contracted out to Enid, which chose not to use their water rights and then taken over by OKC. In all that time, was it not known by you that this day may come to pass? Was it not known by you that when you and your friends chose to base your lives off of the lake that there was a possibility that the largest city in the state could empty it? I mean, who's to blame?? Don't give us the guilt trip. You guys are the ones that chose the path you're on.

mkjeeves pics worth a thousand words. Far past time to start conserving water. If we don't we'll be next on the list of towns without water.

Regardless of whatever my tone may be (and I was being serious about the Google Earth view), you have no right to assume that all of us here in OKC don't give a crap about your situation. You people started businesses in association with a lake that was created for flood control, contracted out to Enid, which chose not to use their water rights and then taken over by OKC. In all that time, was it not known by you that this day may come to pass? Was it not known by you that when you and your friends chose to base your lives off of the lake that there was a possibility that the largest city in the state could empty it? I mean, who's to blame?? Don't give us the guilt trip. You guys are the ones that chose the path you're on.

Again, you come with more arguing and no empathy, I'm shocked. Not really... I can tell you are one of those who has to have the last word in an argument, so when I am done with this post you can comment and I won't answer and you can win. I am just spreading the word about the situation and will continue to do so, but I won't keep arguing with you. Have a great day.

I never said I "assume all" in the city don't "give a crap" I said most of the good people of OKC don't know the severity of the situation on our end in NW OK. They have never been told. I stated that is why I am here to share the story. We may not be able to stop this release, but hoping that letting people know about the situation and how serious it is, and how it will adversely affect our region and ultimately the 200K in NW OKC who depend on Canton Lake water, could lead to some voluntary conservation that may save us all some grief in the future. It may be too late now for this release, but I'm not giving up hope on the future. I can already tell the majority of folks in this thread are more aware of it, and all the FACTS that surround this issue and not just what the media is telling down there. This is not a battle between the people of NW OK and the people of OKC. We are all people of Oklahoma. (pretty sure I have typed some of this before...)

I have never argued one time that the people who built a business around this lake took no risk in doing so due to the contract for the water in it. I have only stated that if the Oklahoma City Water Utilities Trust officials who get paid quite well to provide water for the residents of OKC, had been doing their job and paying attention to this drought and had let the people of OKC know that there was impending trouble on the horizon, then this didn't have to happen to my fellow business owners now. It may have eventually happened in the future, but it certainly could have been avoided at this time by some conservation on the part of the people in the city. Again keeping in mind, this very conservation would have helped the people in the city as well in the long run. If it rains a bunch in the western part of the state this spring, and or between here and there all of this will seem that I was melodramatic, if it doesn't it is going to be sad days for all of us here and there.

I never raised hell in the media or blew up blogs when the city took water in the past because I knew that is why they pay their contract and it's their "right" to take the water and we adjust out here and move on. This release is very different in the fact that it could have major long term catastrophic effects on the body of water itself including killing all the fish in it. So we are talking many years of recovery not just one. If it were a normal year with normal rain fall predicted you probably would have never heard from me, but it's anything but. This drought pattern has been, and and is predicted to be in place for quite some time. The OCWUT has failed the people of Western OK and perhaps the people of NW OKC by their lack of planning for alternative water and also, their lack of education on this issue and conservation.

I wonder how deep that "river" of water is leading to the dam. Canton doesn't seem like your the typical lake. Im use to the deepest part being right at the dam.

Edit: Probably shouldn't have put quotes around river. Its the North Canadian river.

The channel is right around 13ft. at the dam gates if I remember correctly from my conversation with our lead Corp Personnel. It varies some as you work your way back across the lake to the mouth of the river. Like I was saying in an earlier post, the channel coming up to the gates will be what allows the water to get there, otherwise the deep body of water along the dam would probably land bridge off before the 30K acre feet could make it to the outlet. We have deep water along the dam as well as some deep water on the west side of the lake along the red bluffs. (not sure if you noticed those or not) my hope is that they don't become separated by land causing two completely different bodies of water as there are some major sand ridges that run the length of the lake. In my mind this would make it even harder for the fish to survive. Thank you so much for taking the time to look at the lake and for sharing your photos.

Canton built a local economy on water in a lake. OKC built a lifestyle on water that doesn't exist anywhere. That pretty much sums it up.

You people started businesses in association with a lake that was created for flood control, contracted out to Enid, which chose not to use their water rights and then taken over by OKC. In all that time, was it not known by you that this day may come to pass? Was it not known by you that when you and your friends chose to base your lives off of the lake that there was a possibility that the largest city in the state could empty it? I mean, who's to blame?? Don't give us the guilt trip. You guys are the ones that chose the path you're on.

If that was true, no one would have built in OKC…tornado alley, in California…earthquakes, the gulf coast…hurricanes, the mountains…blizzards, and so on, every place in the world has natural disasters to deal with. This is a natural disaster enhanced by people in power, who refused to explain the situation to the public at large. I truly believe we could have given the lake a chance without harming OKC.

In case you haven't yet seen the Gazette article…Oklahoma Gazette News: Water from Canton Lake (http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-17508-water-from-canton.html)

One of the things that made Oklahoma special was small town friendliness, even in our cities. Our customers would come from New York, Chicago, Dallas, LA, London, and many other places. They were always overwhelmed with our welcoming attitude. They were shocked when locals spoke to them on the street, offered to help, were polite, or smiled at them. One of our customers went for an early run, and came back talking about some guy in a truck. He met the same guy twice. He wanted to know why the guy dissed him? Flipped him off? I couldn't help but laugh. That guy in the truck was a farmer going to morning coffee with the guys. He was saying hello.

In the past, what was good for Canton Lake was also good for OKC. That seems to be changing. Now, for many in power what is good for OKC is good for OKC. Almost all residents in OKC had no reason to question the water situation. Hopefully, they will begin to now.

It will be a sad day when Oklahoma is only an I-35 and I-44 metro corridor.


Canton built a local economy on water in a lake. OKC built a lifestyle on water that doesn't exist anywhere. That pretty much sums it up.

Thanks, Just the facts, I couldn't have said it any better.

Recent shot of Lake Hefner:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8236/8445331315_f8c3965b2b_h_d.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/marvinok/8445331315/in/photostream)

Photo by Marvin Bredel (http://www.flickr.com/photos/marvinok)


eek :eek:

Man made lake = natural disaster? Get outta here, lol.

Natural is a feature of the earth that was there before mankind altered it. If this were a natural disaster, we would be discussing the stealing of your valley of water.

No.

Army Corps of Engineers built a dam thus creating a man made lake...which kills your natural disaster metaphor.

Man made lake = natural disaster? Get outta here, lol.

Natural is a feature of the earth that was there before mankind altered it. If this were a natural disaster, we would be discussing the stealing of your valley of water.

No.

Army Corps of Engineers built a dam thus creating a man made lake...which kills your natural disaster metaphor.

Drought is a natural disaster. Even OKC is in an extreme drought.

Think where OKC and our state would be had we not seen so many lakes built in Oklahoma….?



We could probably stand to build a few more dams in Oklahoma.......
but today’s environmental movement makes building major new dams virtually impossible!

I think it was something like the summer of 2006 or 7 that Lake Travis just north and west of Austin, TX, was almost empty due to a drought down there. Then one day they received something like 19" of rain. I really do hope something like that happens around Seiling and points north and west. A damn good soaker, on the level of a tropical depression like the one we had back on August, 18, 2007. Unfortunately, I doubt you can wait that long, so I do hope Spring rains are abundant in that part of the state. I'll be rooting for the jet stream to work its magic and I will hope that the gulf stream moisture will not be cut off.


Drought is a natural disaster. Even OKC is in an extreme drought.

Ahhh, there you go. You didn't mention that. But I guess you really didn't have to considering the City of OKC's large draw from your recreational lake is due to this drought. By all means, y'all are more than welcome to come down to Lake Hefner and fish, sail, jog, walk, ride a bike or even learn to wind surf. It's very popular. How's that for hospitality? :)

We could probably stand to build a few more dams in Oklahoma.......
but today’s environmental movement makes building major new dams virtually impossible!

What are you going to fill all these new lakes with?

What are you going to fill all these new lakes with?

Lets build a dam upstream on the Canadian river. Oh wait.... Lol

What are you going to fill all these new lakes with?

fracturing fluid

What are you going to fill all these new lakes with?It’s going to rain again….. it always does.

fracturing fluid


Actually some of the new fracturing fluids are about 99% water and about 1% food ingredients….. some gets recycled, some is cleaned up to near drinking water standards before being discharging…. and there are waterless fracing methods.

Let's go "Back to/for The Future"!!!
Death to Watering Pet Lawns!
they aren't edible

(carry on . . .)
(don't forget xeriscaping . . .)

I have seen the faces of the dwellers on the former shores of Canton Lake.
They were polite . . . They were not happy faces.

Suggested re-Reading (other than previous posts =)
Stranger in a Strange Land
Dune
T. Boone Pickens (on "aquifer management")

I have to disagree. The environmental movement merely wants all of the facts and ramifications of any environmental change to be investigated, brought to light, and discussed in an open and civil manner before the changes are made.

Fortunately many Oklahomans who consider themselves to be friends of the environment have fought for many years to keep our state legislature from selling our water to Texas despite intense lobbying pressure from south of the Red River. Had we not had our environmental concerns you wouldn't have to worry about building dams because we wouldn't have had any water to impound.

By the way, you should read the reports on the deteriorating condition of our country's existing dams. Why build new ones if we are just going to let the things rot. Just another concern for the environmental movement.

Use OKC's Water Wisely. Squeeze More from Every Drop. (http://squeezeeverydrop.com/)

I wish this website would have been on the news a lot the last couple of years....

Could have really changed some things for the better for a lot of folks.

So, is anybody going to do any gardening this year? Xeriscaping?

So, is anybody going to do any gardening this year? Xeriscaping?

On well water - gonna plant a big garden this year.

By the way, you should read the reports on the deteriorating condition of our country's existing dams. Why build new ones if we are just going to let the things rot. Just another concern for the environmental movement.

I've been saying this for awhile now. We simply can't afford our lifestyle. A lot of people are in for a rude awakening. We have spent trillions building stuff and now we can't afford to fix most of it. Funny thing - buying stuff on credit. When stuff breaks and you still have to pay for it AND buy the replacement it puts a damper on things.

Funny you should mention that, there's mega construction going on at Canton. (Side note...I wonder how much that federal money has helped Canton and the local economy? I also wonder if the lake would have to have been drawn down for the repairs, as is typical, or if will have to be drawn down in the next few years for construction, assuming it fills back up at some point.)

October 7, 2009
Construction project ongoing at Canton Lake

While there are signs of progress at Canton Lake, the first phase of improvements is about a year away from completion.

A 7-year long, multi-phase, multi-million dollar construction project, initiated by the Tulsa District Corps of Engineers, began at the lake in 2008.

“We’re about a year into the first of four phases of the construction. We’re pretty close to being on time and about where we need to be,” said Resident Engineer Jerry Grosz.

Extensive dam safety studies conducted over several years have revealed that Canton Lake Dam needs to be upgraded in order to continue to provide reliable flood protection.

As part of the dam upgrade, damage will be repaired that was caused over the years and by floods in 2007.

There will also be a number of upgrades made to other areas of the lake.

In addition to improving the main office, campgrounds, roads, parking lots, shoreline and boat ramps, the primary emphasis of the construction is on a new spillway that is being built.

The new auxiliary fuse-gated spillway and channel will be constructed south of the existing spillway between the overlook area and the project office.

The new spillway will allow for more water to be released in the event of a maximum flood. The old spillway will remain intact and continue to function as well.

A highway bridge will be constructed across the new 480-foot wide channel, maintaining State Highway 58A access across Canton Dam.

Visitors can expect various detours around the area. To find out more about these detours, contact the lake office at (580) 886-2989.

Although most of the camping and recreational areas will continue to be open, the Big Bend and Blaine Park camping areas were closed as of Oct. 1. The two areas are expected to remain closed until April 1, 2010.

However, Park Ranger Tim Coffey said "there will be plenty of room for anyone who would like to camp."

"The Canadian campground will leave both A and B areas open during the month of October to accommodate campers. Most years, the B area in Canadian is closed as of Oct. 1 to save on operating cost during the slower fall recreation season,” he said.

Even though fall is a slower season, Coffey noted that “deer archery season opened Oct. 1 and we do have some hunters that camp in our campgrounds who are out here for the hunting area that surrounds us.”

Canton Lake offers various outdoor recreational activities for the entire family. Every year people enjoy hunting, fishing, boating, swimming, camping and much more that the lake offers.

Known for its fishing, Canton Lake provides several species of fish, including crappie, white bass, hybrid bass, channel catfish, and largemouth bass. Canton is most widely known for an abundance of walleye and hosts annual “Walleye Rodeo” during the month of May.

Oklahomans have enjoyed the park for generations and with the new improvements its popularity will be sure to endure.

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is working on other improvement projects at several lakes in the Tulsa District, which encompasses all of Oklahoma, the southern half of Kansas, as well as Lake Texoma and Pat Mayse Lake in Texas.

Woodward News

So do the OKC water customers see the price of this reflected in their bill?

So do the OKC water customers see the price of this reflected in their bill?

I didn't see water use listed as any of the reasons they are working on the dam. It talks primarily about flood control and recreation. Should OKC water users pay for flood control and recreation?

I didn't see water use listed as any of the reasons they are working on the dam. It talks primarily about flood control and recreation. Should OKC water users pay for flood control and recreation?

Are they some of the users of this lake? Yes.
Does work on the dam allow water to stay in the lake? Yes
Should OKC water users pay for work on the dam? Yes

Are they some of the users of this lake? Yes.
Does work on the dam allow water to stay in the lake? Yes
Should OKC water users pay for work on the dam? Yes

Do residents of Canton, OKC and all along the river enjoy flood control? Yes.
Shouldn't they all be paying for it? Yes.

OKC currently pays for water use in their water bill AND they pay for flood control through federal taxes. (Others obviously pay federal taxes too.) I don't know if each pays proportionally to cost, do you? Is water for drinking and watering lawns actually a cost of the dam or is it a byproduct of flood control? You decide. What if OKC quit buying the water, would we still need the dam? How would you fund flood control? How much more federal dollars would it take to keep the dam running for flood control and recreation?

I've poked around the net trying to find out what Canton water cost the City of OKC (exclusive of the federal taxes the citizens pay.) Can't find it. Does anyone know?

Do residents of Canton, OKC and all along the river enjoy flood control? Yes.
Shouldn't they all be paying for it? Yes.

OKC currently pays for water use in their water bill AND they pay for flood control through federal taxes. (Others obviously pay federal taxes too.) I don't know if each pays proportionally to cost, do you? Is water for drinking and watering lawns actually a cost of the dam or is it a byproduct of flood control? You decide. What if OKC quit buying the water, would we still need the dam? How would you fund flood control? How much more federal dollars would it take to keep the dam running for flood control and recreation?

I've poked around the net trying to find out what Canton water cost the City of OKC (exclusive of the federal taxes the citizens pay.) Can't find it. Does anyone know?

I have a bit of ignorance in this, as well, but I suspect that OKC (the municipality -- not the citizens) pays nothing for the water. If OKC paid the Corps of Engineers something so that they could lay claim to Sardis (something along the lines of the cost of building the dam, IIRC), then shouldn't they have to pay for maintenance on the dams that hold other water they can claim? I would say that if OKC didn't want to pony up money to fund maintenance to the dam, they should lose the right to draw that water on demand.

Enid News reports OKC pays the Feds $200,000 a year for rights to the water. I assume that's for the right, for storage, and we pay either way even on years when there is too much to use and we send it downstream.

I've also looked unsuccessfully for a Corp of Engineers Canton Lake operating budget which should show income from both water and recreational fees.

With any Sardis water, the city will have to pay for the water rights and the cost associated with pumping it here. As opposed to Canton where the Corp of Engineers pushes a button to release water downstream.

Ok, that engineer that pushes the button probably makes 60,000 per year. lol

Enid News reports OKC pays the Feds $200,000 a year for rights to the water. I assume that's for the right, for storage, and we pay either way even on years when there is too much to use and we send it downstream.

I've also looked unsuccessfully for a Corp of Engineers Canton Lake operating budget which should show income from both water and recreational fees.

The avg yearly operating budget at Canton is around $800K plus or minus, that is where the $200K payment figure comes in, the actual contract states that the City will pay 25% of the annual Operations and Maintenance budget. So it's really not set at $200K, it's based on a percentage. You are correct that it is paid on all years no matter if the water is drawn or not. The contract also stipulates that the City is liable for 25.5% of other repairs or improvements. (I'm sorry, but don't remember the actual term used here) When I questioned about the new spilling basin project and it's estimated $205 million budget and OKC's part of that payment, which could be like $50 Mill, I was told it's done on a pro-rated basis according to how much of it is used for water storage and the total payment would be assessed at the end of the project but that it wasn't expected to be anywhere near $50 Million. Which makes sense to me as it's more for flood control than for water storage. They did say however that there should be some fee associated with it but no one knew how much.

With any Sardis water, the city will have to pay for the water rights and the cost associated with pumping it here. As opposed to Canton where the Corp of Engineers pushes a button to release water downstream.

Ok, that engineer that pushes the button probably makes 60,000 per year. lol

The tribal claims aren't as solid as they make them out to be.

The tribal claims aren't as solid as they make them out to be.

I wasn't really speaking about the tribes specifically. It was more to highlight that the water will cost a little bit more if their having to use more electricity and to maintain a pumping infrastructure to bring the water to us as oppose to relying on gravity. This could apply to any eastern water source.

I wasn't really speaking about the tribes specifically. It was more to highlight that the water will cost a little bit more if their having to use more electricity and to maintain a pumping infrastructure to bring the water to us as oppose to relying on gravity. This could apply to any eastern water source.

Yes, but 30,000 acre feet or several billion gallons wouldn't be lost to saturation in a dry river bed either, and electricity is easier to come by than water in a drought. Just a thought. (Before anyone gets smart, yes I know some water is used to create electricity at some dams.) :-)

I wasn't really speaking about the tribes specifically. It was more to highlight that the water will cost a little bit more if their having to use more electricity and to maintain a pumping infrastructure to bring the water to us as oppose to relying on gravity. This could apply to any eastern water source.

DFW is willing to pay for the pipe and the pumping - not to mention the cost of the water. OKC needs to wise up and move fast or it will be too late. There is already a pipe from Atoka and McGee Creek - Sardis and Hugo are only 40 - 50 miles from Atoka. Since pumping and distrubution is established out of Hefner, another pipe from Draper to Hefner would complete a secondary source decreasing the demand on Canton as an option during times of drought. There are several untaped sources in the east - Hugo and Sardis are both several times the size of Thunderbird. The trick is not to depend too much on a singular source in addition to promoting wise use of water.

DFW is willing to pay for the pipe and the pumping - not to mention the cost of the water. OKC needs to wise up and move fast or it will be too late. There is already a pipe from Atoka and McGee Creek - Sardis and Hugo are only 40 - 50 miles from Atoka. Since pumping and distrubution is established out of Hefner, another pipe from Draper to Hefner would complete a secondary source decreasing the demand on Canton as an option during times of drought. There are several untaped sources in the east - Hugo and Sardis are both several times the size of Thunderbird. The trick is not to depend too much on a singular source in addition to promoting wise use of water.

The pipe from Atoka is at capacity, that is why in the next couple years they are building one parallel to it that will get water from Sardis

How is the water treated from lake hefner for drinking? I was walking around in the lake bed on the southwest side the other day and noticed dozens of tires, oil jugs, and batteries embedded in the lake floor.

So do the OKC water customers see the price of this reflected in their bill?

Maybe not directly but there is this.

Drought puts Lake Hefner boating season in jeopardy | News OK (http://newsok.com/drought-puts-lake-hefner-boating-season-in-jeopardy/article/3752345)


Use more, pay more

With preparations under way to address the slip leases at Lake Hefner, the Water Utilities Trust board on Tuesday studied a proposal to increase rates for customers who use lots of water at home.

A plan presented by Bret Weingart, the utilities department assistant director, would have the intended effect of discouraging outdoor watering.

Water customers in Oklahoma City typically use about 7,000 gallons per month, officials said.

Chairman Pete White said he favored a simple approach that would reward people for using less water while maintaining — but not increasing — city revenues and making sure customers who use more pay more.

The city already has adopted a plan to limit water use by restricting outdoor watering to a maximum of every other day — known as odd-even because watering is tied to addresses.

New water rates could be coming soon, after the Water Utilities Trust makes a recommendation and the city council conducts public hearings and a vote.

A plan presented by Bret Weingart, the utilities department assistant director, would have the intended effect of discouraging outdoor watering.

Perfect. Write an ordinance requiring greenspace and outdoor watering. Then write a second one discouraging and penalizing those who do. Make them pay!

Our bipolar city government at work.

Guess I need to highlight a copy of the landscape ordinance and send copies to the mayor and my councilman.

Thanks for that quote ljbab728 because it really underscores the root problem. It says the average OKC water customer uses 7000 gallons and
I assume that is for residential customers only. The City is trying to discourage water use but at the same time they keep allowing new homes with large and larger yards which have to be maintained. When a new suburban home is built it requires more than the average amount of water to maintain which results in average usage going up by design.

If OKC really wanted to fix this problem they would have a minimum building density of 4 units per acre and a minimum impervious surface ratio (not a maximum) of something like 70%. That means each lot could at most be 30% grass. Homes with larger yards would instantly become more valuable because those couldn't be built anymore and new homes would become much more affordable because they require less land to build on.

You beat me to it mkjeeves.

You beat me to it mkjeeves.

You offered some possible solutions at least.

This issue underscores something I've been thinking about lately that's too big for this thread. OKC does not have a comprehensive plan for the future. Sure, we have some plans to subsidize improving downtown and that's about it. (Some people have read into that it means to ignore and abandon the rest of the city and its residents when they have been milked of taxes to accomplish this goal. That's neither vision nor leadership.) What is the long term vision and resulting plan for the entire metro as we move forward?

If OKC really wanted to fix this problem they would have a minimum building density of 4 units per acre and a minimum impervious surface ratio (not a maximum) of something like 70%. That means each lot could at most be 30% grass. Homes with larger yards would instantly become more valuable because those couldn't be built anymore and new homes would become much more affordable because they require less land to build on.

The trouble is, some of us like our suburban lifestyle, large back yards, etc. It works out for the city because our houses are worth more per square foot than crappy apartments and condos, except those downtown (but the market won't be able to sustain the current prices for downtown homes IMHO). Your idea pretends that OKC competes with no one for finding good homeowners. Decrease the options here and Edmond, Moore, etc. will be happy to have those property tax dollars.

Also, decreasing the value of new development does two things: it stunts new development and leads to lower prices, which invite lower quality building and in 20-30 years, you have dilapidated, crime-ridden neighborhoods.

This is the wrong thread for this discussion but you couldn't be more wrong Midtowner.

1) Residential property taxes don't come close to paying for connecting those properties to public utilities and roads.
2) Downtown housing units cost more per sq foot because demand says they can.
3) Low density urban sprawl causes property devaluation and dilapidated crime-ridden neighborhoods.

But the real question is - where is the water going to come from to keep building homes with 1/2 acre yards? Someone could build a levee around the entire state but if water usage exceeds the average amount mother nature can supply what good does it do? Over a 10 year period if we are only getting sufficient rainfall in 4 of those years what do you do for the other 6? What happens in 10 years when we have increased demand so that sufficient rainfall only occurs in 3 of the 10 years?

Funny thing about defining 'drought', it is based on the rainfall provided by nature, not how much water us humans need/want. We are rapidly approaching the point that every year will be a drought year no matter how much rain we get because we demand more than can be supplied. Eventually the law of diminishing returns will kick in and that will be that. So we can either prepare for that now or stick our head in the sand - literally - by putting in low-flow shower heads and building yards that require 10,000 gallons of water every month.

Amen
This is the wrong thread for this discussion but you couldn't be more wrong Midtowner.

1) Residential property taxes don't come close to paying for connecting those properties to public utilities and roads.
2) Downtown housing units cost more per sq foot because demand says they can.
3) Low density urban sprawl causes property devaluation and dilapidated crime-ridden neighborhoods.

But the real question is - where is the water going to come from to keep building homes with 1/2 acre yards? Someone could build a levee around the entire state but if water usage exceeds the average amount mother nature can supply what good does it do? Over a 10 year period if we are only getting sufficient rainfall in 4 of those years what do you do for the other 6? What happens in 10 years when we have increased demand so that sufficient rainfall only occurs in 3 of the 10 years?

Funny thing about defining 'drought', it is based on the rainfall provided by nature, not how much water us humans need/want. We are rapidly approaching the point that every year will be a drought year no matter how much rain we get because we demand more than can be supplied. Eventually the law of diminishing returns will kick in and that will be that. So we can either prepare for that now or stick our head in the sand - literally - by putting in low-flow shower heads and building yards that require 10,000 gallons of water every month.

This is the wrong thread for this discussion but you couldn't be more wrong Midtowner.

1) Residential property taxes don't come close to paying for connecting those properties to public utilities and roads.
2) Downtown housing units cost more per sq foot because demand says they can.
3) Low density urban sprawl causes property devaluation and dilapidated crime-ridden neighborhoods.

Residential property taxes fund our schools. Which do you think will retain its value better and pay more taxes over time? Block 42 or Heritage Hills?


But the real question is - where is the water going to come from to keep building homes with 1/2 acre yards? Someone could build a levee around the entire state but if water usage exceeds the average amount mother nature can supply what good does it do? Over a 10 year period if we are only getting sufficient rainfall in 4 of those years what do you do for the other 6? What happens in 10 years when we have increased demand so that sufficient rainfall only occurs in 3 of the 10 years?

Funny thing about defining 'drought', it is based on the rainfall provided by nature, not how much water us humans need/want. We are rapidly approaching the point that every year will be a drought year no matter how much rain we get because we demand more than can be supplied. Eventually the law of diminishing returns will kick in and that will be that. So we can either prepare for that now or stick our head in the sand - literally - by putting in low-flow shower heads and building yards that require 10,000 gallons of water every month.

I think your alarmist views are a little over the top. We just drained Canton and have plenty of water in Hefner to survive at least another serious year of drought, a drought which will eventually end, at which point, the lakes will again become flood control tools rather than primarily being used for water storage. Further, OKC does have long range plans. We're going to tap the water at Sardis as soon as the tribal rights issues are figured out and there's a long term plan for a massive expansion of Lake Stanley Draper. That there's no long term planning is pure fiction.

http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic-issues/12686-elm-creek-reservoir.html