That really is an option of last resort, desalination itself is pretty expensive compared to conventional techniques due to the power requirements even if you are next to the ocean. The section of the Keystone pipeline between Cushing and the ocean will cost around two billion and it is only 30 inches, we will need a bigger one even if the OKC was the only customer. The existing Atoka pipeline is 72 inches.Yeah I hear you. I heard a bunch of towns in Australia are resorting to desalination. I don't know exactly how expensive it is to just do that, but I know they are spending something like 5 billion over 10 years to build plants to do it. I wonder how many places in U.S. actually do this.

http://i.imgur.com/w2gn57V.png

I think you may have missed my point Matt, or maybe I am misunderstanding your photo directed at my comment. The 200,000 I speak of are the many, they are the residents of OKC that depend on the water from Canton Lake. I am just stating the fact that if we continue in this drought, there will be no more water from Canton lake for them to send to Hefner and according to the Oklahoma City Water Utilities Trust there is no back up plan in place for them to capture water for those 200,000 residents.

I would also like to take this time and go on record as stating, I am in no way against the great people of OKC. I have many friends and family that reside there. I am however extremely disappointed in the efforts of the people in charge of providing the water to these 200,000 thousand plus people, that would be the organization I mentioned above. They have done little until just recently as far as educating the fine folks of OKC that there is a problem. They have not done due diligence in securing an alternative water supply for the people who depend on Canton Lake water and they have done little to encourage conservation. I don't blame the people of OKC themselves because we are all creatures of habit and until someone educates us to the fact that there is a problem, we will all go on doing things "business as usual".

I would like to commend the people in charge of the water for the mandatory rationing they just implemented, but I honestly can't. I can't because one of the professionals from that organization sat in the meeting with the Canton Lake Association last week and stated that "even and odd watering really doesn't do much for conserving water it only dictates the demand on the pumping equipment." Also, I really can't see how it's going to help much in the winter when most intelligent folks are not pouring thousands of gallons of precious water on their lawns on a regular schedule multiple times a week in the dead of winter. I will call it out for what I see it as, a PR stunt to hush the voices who see the devastation that is about to take place at lakes around the state, and are calling for answers as to why measures haven't been taken sooner. They are trying to silence the squeaky wheels by now implementing the rationing and also to be able to say they "did something" when people come to realize how serious this issue is and start asking questions.

Now back to your picture, the people in charge of OKC water are certainly more than willing to wreck the lives of a "few" hard working western OK business owners and their employees, to pay for their sins of not educating the people and enforcing water conservation and rationing practices sooner so they can save face in front of the "many".

Good job, Mark!

Yeah I hear you. I heard a bunch of towns in Australia are resorting to desalination. I don't know exactly how expensive it is to just do that, but I know they are spending something like 5 billion over 10 years to build plants to do it. I wonder how many places in U.S. actually do this.

Not too many, some of that technology along with bacteria killing methods have been used in a few cities to clean waste water for use as tap water for that same city. Yea it does not sound particularly appealing but most places have both other cities waste output and run off from animals and fertilizer upstream anyway.

A few items:

1) Building more lakes is not the answer - in fact, that is the problem. Only so much water passes through Oklahoma and building more lakes is just chasing dimensioning returns. The idea of a lake in general is that it catches and holds runoff at above normal times for use later during below normal time. The problem is when you past the half-way point and demand is higher than what can be produced in an average year. You can have all the storage capacity you want but if there isn't rainwater to fill it then big deal. The more capacity we build the more rainfall it takes to fill it and we can't make it rain any more than it already is. If our capacity can only be filled by extreme wet years then we are just setting ourselves up for even bigger future problems. I can open all the checking accounts I want but it doesn't change the fact my income doesn't change, I just have more place to keep it.

2) Reclaimed water can help but it doesn't take long for demand to outpace the supply of that was well. We have been using reclaimed water here in Florida for 20 years and guess what - we still have water shortages every year. Increasing supply is nothing more than kicking the can down the road. At one time a family in Oklahoma could live on a 3,000 gallon cistern fed by rain falling on their roof. A family today would burn through that in about 10 days.

3) Desalination is not even an option for Oklahoma. A desalination plant cost more than the entire Oklahoma State annual budget. And even if you could pipe ocean water to Oklahoma, that is only half the battle because you have to pump the brine back to the ocean. The amount of electricity needed to move the water, turn it into drinking water, and pump the brine back to the ocean would require a new power plant in Oklahoma. Sure you can pump oil, but oil sells for $100 barrel. I don't know anyone willing to pay $100 per barrel of ocean water.

1) Building more lakes is not the answer - in fact, that is the problem. Only so much water passes through Oklahoma and building more lakes is just chasing dimensioning returns. The idea of a lake in general is that it catches and holds runoff at above normal times for use later during below normal time. The problem is when you past the half-way point and demand is higher than what can be produced in an average year. You can have all the storage capacity you want but if there isn't rainwater to fill it then big deal. The more capacity we build the more rainfall it takes to fill it and we can't make it rain any more than it already is. If our capacity can only be filled by extreme wet years then we are just setting ourselves up for even bigger future problems. I can open all the checking accounts I want but it doesn't change the fact my income doesn't change, I just have more place to keep it.

They are not building a lake in there current plan, the lake they are planing on building a pipeline to was built thirty years ago and it is still near it's full capacity now.

The two lakes OKC currently has access to are in dynamically opposite conditions; Canton is in trouble, Atoka even in the worst of this drought was at least near capacity the entire time, it has been in the flood stages at times. Partly due to Atoka's and Sardis's catchment areas generally receives more than three to four times as much rain per square inch as Canton's catchment area.

OKC residents must be made aware of the problem. Local news recently did some stories, and OETA did a longer story, but no one, not the mayor, not the newspeople, none actually made the story sound as serious as it is. Granted, there may be some rains upstream, but it is quite possible you will not. The "if not" is so serious, I don't know how any responsible government official in any dependent water district can ignore or make light of the circumstances facing them. Image 200,000 plus without drinking water? No water to fight fires? Remember the wildfires? If this drought continues, OKC will change their ways. They will have no other choice. These are physical facts, and Canton cannot change them.

Image 200,000 plus without drinking water? No water to fight fires? Remember the wildfires? If this drought continues, OKC will change their ways. They will have no other choice. These are physical facts, and Canton cannot change them.

That pretty much sums it up law. We can either find a way to live on less or a way will be found for us, and most people aren't going to like living in an environment where we learn our lessons the hard way. We have several foreclosures in our subdivision and it is easy to spot them. They are the ones with dead grass and bushes because nature simply can't provide the necessary water on its own at the place it is needed. Fortunately, we have found a way to live on less and it has proven to have many other benefits as well. We just need more people to adopt a higher density way of living.

#1 way not to have your grass not turn brown and dead? - NEVER PUT IN A SPRINKLER SYSTEM!!!!

Talk to any master gardener (I've two aunts that are), and they'll tell you that relying on the sprinkler simply causes the roots of your grass to shrink because they don't have to grow deeper to reach the water. That makes them more susceptible to drought conditions because the roots are so close to the surface.

If you have a sprinkler system, then you can prevent that from happening IF you don't have it just run on a schedule. Get up and go turn it on...start the cycle. Get a moisture sensor so it doesn't run when it doesn't need to...ie in the middle of a thunderstorm.

Another thing you can do is get native plants. This isn't Florida, so don't put in tropical plants or those that require tons of water.

This last summer, i didn't run my sprinkler but maybe 3 times total ALL SUMMER. My grass was just as green and growing as well as (if not better) than my sprinkler system buddies next door. It's that early spring prep you do with the right fertilizers (which for me meant two treatments, 2 weeks apart, with a total of 30 minutes of walking behind a fertilizer). It's really super easy folks and can take far less effort than all the crazy maintenance people try to do. If you just plant the right things and don't go crazy, your lawn and plants will still be happy and you will be to because you won't be outside doing things every day.

Indoors, it's more difficult to conserve. Make sure your toilets or facuets aren't leaking. That eats up a TON of water really fast.
Use a cup for your toothbrushing swish water instead of running the tap the whole time.
For the guys, if you use a manual razor, fill the sink some to rinse the razor, don't run the tap.
If your dishwasher and washing machine are old, you might consider a newer one. They're more energy efficient and use water more conservatively.
Forget that jacuzzi tub...ours collects dust more than anything.
Low flow toilets can use a lot less, but especially if you get those things that help shoot your stuff down the drain with "power".

Say what you will about Californians, but they know how to endure a water shortage. Inside: Brief showers, not flushing every time, brushing teeth without water. Outside: No washing cars or watering lawns. No-one grumbles and it becomes the "new normal" until the next rain cycle begins and the reservoirs refill. We'd be wise to follow their example.

If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down.

So I may be missing something...

But the best way to get people to notice something and change - is to make them pay more.

Why is water in OKC so cheap??? Raise the prices, people will stop dumping water on lawns, filling pools for summer, etc.


This seems like a no brainer to me.

#1 way not to have your grass not turn brown and dead? - NEVER PUT IN A SPRINKLER SYSTEM!!!!


Pretty close bombermwc but the #1 way to not have you grass turn brown and die is to not have a yard to begin with. It works every time and is fool proof. Once again I qoute the W.O.P.R. computer. The only winning move is not to play.

Pretty close bombermwc but the #1 way to not have you grass turn brown and die is to not have a yard to begin with. It works every time and is fool proof. Once again I qoute the W.O.P.R. computer. The only winning move is not to play.

A family down the road on my former residence converted about 85% of their front yard to an attractive rock garden, with just a couple of small plants. Fair part of the back was taken over by an out-building. I think what was left could be mowed in about 10 minutes, w/o hurrying. Now that all my mowers are grown and gone, I'm thinking about the idea more than I did in the past.

A family down the road on my former residence converted about 85% of their front yard to an attractive rock garden, with just a couple of small plants. Fair part of the back was taken over by an out-building. I think what was left could be mowed in about 10 minutes, w/o hurrying. Now that all my mowers are grown and gone, I'm thinking about the idea more than I did in the past.

That's pretty much how I remember suburban yards in Albuquerque back when.

Typical aerial view:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=6101+stargazer+albuquerque&ll=35.212591,-106.709009&spn=0.000798,0.001206&hnear=6101+Stargazer+Ave+NW,+Albuquerque,+Bernalil lo,+New+Mexico+87114&gl=us&t=h&z=20

I would kill myself before I lived in a subdivision like that. What about that living arrangement could possibly inspire someone to get up and go to work everyday?

I would kill myself before I lived in a subdivision like that. What about that living arrangement could possibly inspire someone to get up and go to work everyday?


Really? That's a shallow opinion. That neighborhood looks much nicer than most that I would consider "killing myself" before living in. Not everyone needs materialistic things to "get up and go to work everyday".

Really? That's a shallow opinion. That neighborhood looks much nicer than most that I would consider "killing myself" before living in. Not everyone needs materialistic things to "get up and go to work everyday".

Of all the problems with sprawl, it does have one large universal appeal and that is that it is pretty to look at. The subdivision in that picture has none of that.

Anyhow, I was mostly just joking.

Of all the problems with sprawl, it does have one large universal appeal and that is that it is pretty to look at. The subdivision in that picture has none of that.

Anyhow, I was mostly just joking.

The same type yards are all over the city (and in Arizona) at homes with a range of price points and with varying degrees of aesthetics. That neighborhood is less than a decade old. Mountain views! The one that's pinpointed is $120,000 and it's nicer than my first home purchase in OKC. When I lived in ABQ in a similar neighborhood, I could safely ride my bike to the base of the mountain, to school and just about anywhere I needed to go.

Get rid of the yard, stack four to fifty more stories on top if it, triple or quadruple the cost and you have yourself urban living.

6101 Stargazer Ave NW, Albuquerque, NM 87114 - Zillow (http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/6101-Stargazer-Ave-NW-Albuquerque-NM-87114/63830162_zpid/)

Of all the problems with sprawl, it does have one large universal appeal and that is that it is pretty to look at. The subdivision in that picture has none of that.

Anyhow, I was mostly just joking.

Says you maybe. I dont see anything pretty to look at in regards to rows of similar looking houses with no mature landscaping located out in far NW OKC. Id much rather drive through and look at an old neighborhood that has a charming mix of homes on 50x140ft lots rather than the repetitive cookie cutter neighborhoods.

If people in Albuquerque want to live in a dust patch more power to them, but there are nice places in Albuquerque that use very little water and still look inviting. Anyhow, this is a perfect illustration of what happens when the water runs out. Now if only they had back the money spent building those million miles of roads to the north and south (they are so barren even the Google Streeview guys didn't drive down them and they get paid by the mile).

If people in Albuquerque want to live in a dust patch more power to them, but there are nice places in Albuquerque that use very little water and still look inviting. Anyhow, this is a perfect illustration of what happens when the water runs out. Now if only they had back the money spent building those million miles of roads to the north and south (they are so barren even the Google Streeview guys didn't drive down them and they get paid by the mile).

You missed the point. There are alternatives to green watered lawns or urban concrete. When people live in arid climes sometimes they don't try to force what's not natural. As far as ABQ goes, I lived there 40 + years ago. The gravel rock yard adaptation had been there quite a while before I arrived and the choice isn't going anywhere anytime soon. It's a desert.

In addition to having yards that are a natural response to the environmental conditions in which they live, some people like it and some people love it. Others live in Florida.

Yep - I get that 100%. Ironically, here in Florida we live with sever water restrictions every year. We needed 2 tropical storms last year just to end the drought.

For the guys, if you use a manual razor, fill the sink some to rinse the razor, don't run the tap.


Nice, Idea but I've tried many times and it just doesn't work for me.

Nice, Idea but I've tried many times and it just doesn't work for me.

Use two cups pour one into the other if you need flowing water

I wonder how many on this thread actually watched the OKC Water trust meeting ...

or know that OKC went to the water restrictions out of a moral choice (because of some of our neighboring cities) not an OKC water shortage choice ... or know that the pipe line from atoka is full open and has been for several months and that draper is slowly refilling ... or that OKC is going to start limiting the water taken from hefner and start taking more from draper on non peak usage days ... or that OKC has a policy of not filling hefner for rec activities only for water needs ..

Some of you still aren't seeing the big picture. While this is a basic supply and demand problem, far too many are focusing on supply as the problem when the real problem is on the demand side. The bottom line is most of us are living a lifestyle (me included) that is beyond the means of mother nature to supply the resources for. Across the annual rainfall spectrum we are increasingly only having enough rain in years at the top end of the scale. Normal rainfall is no longer enough and when below annual rainfall years occur the dust hits the fan quickly. We have the same problem here in Florida - almost every year. At least we have one advantage in Florida - desalination.

Over the next 20 years hundreds of thousands of people will move to OKC. Where is the water to supply these people going to come from? Conservation alone isn't going to get us there. You can put all the low-flow shower heads on, flush on every 3rd trip to the bathroom, turn the water off while you brush your teeth, etc..., but none of that means crap vs. pouring 15,000 gallons of water on your yard every month. The next 250,000 people moving to OKC have to live on the same water supply we are struggling with today, in fact, to solve this problem we have to be using LESS water in 20 years than we are today.

And of course, having enough water to drink is only a small part of the problem. There are serious downstream environmental problems that occur when too much water is siphoned off upstream. Just to give you an example, the mighty Colorado River that created the Grand Canyon and fills huge lakes - goes dry 20 miles from the ocean. Billions of gallons of water that used to drain into the Gulf of California no longer make it there. The same thing is occurring with many rivers west of the Appalachian Mountains.

OKC has plenty of water for all of those new people for way more than the next 20 years

OKC has plenty of water for all of those new people for way more than the next 20 years

So there you have it - crisis averted. Back to DefCon 5.

As long as our lakes look the way they do, we have a water problem. It's embarrassing to see Hefner and other lakes look so pitiful. It's more than just about drinking water. It's about the beautification of our city and about quality of life. It's hard to convince out-of-towners how wonderful it is to live here when major recreation areas have turned into giant dust bowls. It's not quite as fun to spend outdoor time at places like Lake Hefner—whether it's walking, running or biking around the lake, or on-the-water activities—when you're looking at a large dirt field with an ever-shrinking puddle in the middle of it.

Are we out of drinking water? No. Should we wait until we are until we do something? Absolutely not. The lake levels should be a serious wake-up call for water conservation. If this drought persists much longer, we will move into a major crisis mode. Are you wanting to wait until we reach that point?

Tried attaching this on Sunday, but this is what the portion of the lake by Children's Park looked like.

3246

NOAA says we would need record-ish rainfall to end the drought

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/images/fxc/oun/graphicast/image_full7.jpg

I wonder how many on this thread actually watched the OKC Water trust meeting ...

or know that OKC went to the water restrictions out of a moral choice (because of some of our neighboring cities) not an OKC water shortage choice ... or know that the pipe line from atoka is full open and has been for several months and that draper is slowly refilling ... or that OKC is going to start limiting the water taken from hefner and start taking more from draper on non peak usage days ... or that OKC has a policy of not filling hefner for rec activities only for water needs ..

Then we don't need to release water from Lake Canton then. It would certainly be a crisis for a lot of people and wildlife around Canton if it gets drained too low.

So which is it? Are they thinking about releasing water from Canton because of water needs or are they giving in to political pressure because Hefner looks bad?

Use two cups pour one into the other if you need flowing water

LOL, thanks for the idea but I don't have two hours to shave in the morning.

It's a start. There is an extreme water crisis plaguing our state. After a meeting with the Col of the Corp of Engineers in Tulsa yesterday, and viewing a map of all Corp lakes in the region and their lowered water tables, it's very evident. This drought has taken it's toll on the lakes that are used for municipal water supplies. The Colonel is very concerned of the consequences of the impending drought and there doesn't appear to be any relief in sight. He has been trying to get the attention of State officials on this matter for quite sometime. Water conservation and rationing need to become household words to get us through this mess.


Drought could lead to tighter water restrictions for OKC residents | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/drought-could-lead-to-tighter-water-restrictions-for-okc-residents/article/3748466)

I wonder how many on this thread actually watched the OKC Water trust meeting ...

or know that OKC went to the water restrictions out of a moral choice (because of some of our neighboring cities) not an OKC water shortage choice ... or know that the pipe line from atoka is full open and has been for several months and that draper is slowly refilling ... or that OKC is going to start limiting the water taken from hefner and start taking more from draper on non peak usage days ... or that OKC has a policy of not filling hefner for rec activities only for water needs ..


OKC has plenty of water for all of those new people for way more than the next 20 years


It's a start. There is an extreme water crisis plaguing our state. After a meeting with the Col of the Corp of Engineers in Tulsa yesterday, and viewing a map of all Corp lakes in the region and their lowered water tables, it's very evident. This drought has taken it's toll on the lakes that are used for municipal water supplies. The Colonel is very concerned of the consequences of the impending drought and there doesn't appear to be any relief in sight. He has been trying to get the attention of State officials on this matter for quite sometime. Water conservation and rationing need to become household words to get us through this mess.

Drought could lead to tighter water restrictions for OKC residents | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/drought-could-lead-to-tighter-water-restrictions-for-okc-residents/article/3748466)

I wonder what the truth is. If OKC does have a water problem in the future, why is the OKC Water Trust so certain that that info does not need to get out? If OKC does NOT have a water problem in the future, why is the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers so adamant (at least in their meetings with MarkAFuqua) that there's a regional drought crisis? Does OKC Water Trust want the problem to exacerbate until it's a crisis and then we can claim we absolutely NEED the Sardis water? Does the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers need to justify more budget for another lake or are they mired in the belief that all their lakes must be just so full? Was there really another shooter behind the grassy knoll? I'm not really looking for a conspiracy. I just wonder why two different agencies can have such differing views about the same situation?

If there is not a water problem, why is Hefner disappearing?

Every city government needs to start major education and marketing campaigns. I don't think most people really understand or believe the need to conserve.

I wonder what the truth is. If OKC does have a water problem in the future, why is the OKC Water Trust so certain that that info does not need to get out? If OKC does NOT have a water problem in the future, why is the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers so adamant (at least in their meetings with MarkAFuqua) that there's a regional drought crisis? Does OKC Water Trust want the problem to exacerbate until it's a crisis and then we can claim we absolutely NEED the Sardis water? Does the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers need to justify more budget for another lake or are they mired in the belief that all their lakes must be just so full? Was there really another shooter behind the grassy knoll? I'm not really looking for a conspiracy. I just wonder why two different agencies can have such differing views about the same situation?

OKC and "the region" are not the same thing ... norman has a water problem right now as do others i'm sure .. and they will only grow in the future ... OKC water trust has done a wonderful job over the last 50+ years to protect and gain water rights for OKC .. and they continue to do that going into the future ..

The water crisis is absolutely this serious. OKC residents should be asking the OKC Water Trust and the Mayor and Council about the looming crisis.

The water crisis is absolutely this serious. OKC residents should be asking the OKC Water Trust and the Mayor and Council about the looming crisis.

link?

Every city government needs to start major education and marketing campaigns. I don't think most people really understand or believe the need to conserve.

Conservation isn't going to cut it. We have to rescale how people live.

Conservation isn't going to cut it. We have to rescale how people live.
That may be true, but we can at least START with conservation.

Nobody has answered the question earlier in this thread, so I'll ask again.

Why is OKC water so cheap?

If you want people to change, you make them pay. It is the only way to truly get people to change the way they live.

Nobody has answered the question earlier in this thread, so I'll ask again.

Why is OKC water so cheap?

If you want people to change, you make them pay. It is the only way to truly get people to change the way they live.

Probably becasue it is priced to cover the cost of supplying it plus a small profit to the city. It isn't priced to influence behavior. You're right though, make the stuff $1 gallon and you wouldn't have to encourage people to conserve, they would do it all on their own.

http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=3692488805277614496#editor/target=post;postID=1680658174965529001

Our Senator from Woodward who is in the know, realizes there is a sever water problem. I posted earlier in the forum that I can't speak to the severity of all of OKC having a water issue, but I can most certainly assure you that unless the Oklahoma City Water Utilities Trust lied to my face in a meeting about Canton being their only option for water once Hefner was down, the 200,000 plus patrons that rely on that water are in a water crisis. Of course it could rain a bunch in the next few weeks or months and I will look like Chicken Little screaming about the sky falling because the problem could correct itself with help from mother nature. All extended forecasts do not say that is likely however. I pray it does rain, but I fear it won't rain enough to fix this issue anytime soon. Again though, there may well be parts of the city that have plenty of water resources but the folks in NW OKC who count on Canton water have a problem.

I wonder what the truth is. If OKC does have a water problem in the future, why is the OKC Water Trust so certain that that info does not need to get out? If OKC does NOT have a water problem in the future, why is the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers so adamant (at least in their meetings with MarkAFuqua) that there's a regional drought crisis? Does OKC Water Trust want the problem to exacerbate until it's a crisis and then we can claim we absolutely NEED the Sardis water? Does the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers need to justify more budget for another lake or are they mired in the belief that all their lakes must be just so full? Was there really another shooter behind the grassy knoll? I'm not really looking for a conspiracy. I just wonder why two different agencies can have such differing views about the same situation?

I think you will see from some headlines very soon that the Water Trust is changing it's tune and tighter restrictions are on the way. They are essentially admitting what I and others have been saying all along, there is a water shortage.

At this point it's not dire for anyone but the Canton Lake community and surrounding towns... and all those who rely on Canton Lake for their enjoyment and to make a living. All the thousands of people who call that lake home for the summer or simply come to visit. My friend who owns the grocery store and others who own the convenience stores and pretty much every business up and down main street are friends of mine and I assure you this situation is very serious to them. They have already had to talk about laying off employees and and closing up shop if this impending 30,000 acre feet water draw happens as the OKC Water Trust has implied it will. Why you ask, because there was no proper planning to educate the masses last summer that water rationing and conservation should have been implemented. Everyone knew we were in a two year drought already at that point and that the long term forecasts were calling for it to continue for anywhere from 5 to 10 years. Lack of planning ahead caused issues that will cause innocent people to suffer, not to mention potentially kill millions of fish and a lake to be ruined for years to come. Experts say as many as 5 to 10 years possibly if OKC takes this water and we don't get rain.

Nobody has answered the question earlier in this thread, so I'll ask again.

Why is OKC water so cheap?

If you want people to change, you make them pay. It is the only way to truly get people to change the way they live.

Rate increases are on the way! Especially for high end users.

OKC and "the region" are not the same thing ... norman has a water problem right now as do others i'm sure .. and they will only grow in the future ... OKC water trust has done a wonderful job over the last 50+ years to protect and gain water rights for OKC .. and they continue to do that going into the future ..

Unless OKC has cheap access to water that doesn't come from the region, I'd say OKC and the region are competing for the same water. Can OKC's water rights guarantee that there will be water there? in Canton? without debilitating THAT region? OU prides itself, according to one poster on another thread, in pumping its own water for landscape watering. Does that magically NOT come from the same Central Oklahoma Aquifer I use on my land? If OKC has water rights to 50 dry lakes, will OKC still have water? what about 51 dry lakes? 100 dry lakes?

link?

Canton Lake is already 9+ ft low. Canton Lake (http://www.swt-wc.usace.army.mil/CANT.lakepage.html)

OKC plans 7+ ft draw. That would reduce Canton's levels to below 1598+ ft.
.
Technically, Canton's inactive level is 1596.50. No silt studies have been done since 1977. It is unknown if Canton can actually go to that level. There will be no more water until Canton fills to a functionally drawable level (enough water in Canton to get any release water to OKC). Not because Canton or the Corps could or would stop it, there will simply be no water in your storage space.

Once OKC draws this 7+ ft, the only water available to OKC residents dependent on Hefner will be rain and what is in storage. Without rain and with Canton "empty", the countdown will begin. It may be a wet spring, it may not, only time will tell. Solutions take time, but without rain, time is short, and I don't see anyone in OKC talking about how to solve the problem, or even admitting to the public there is a problem. Think about the changes in the OKC water trust press releases in the last two weeks.

Please understand, this is not like the years Canton wanted to keep water for summer recreation. This is an entirely different situation. This is a drought. We would need 20 inches of rain to end the drought by the end of May….see the NOAA map posted by Snowman.

Corps of Engineers drought update here: Drought Update, Jan. 24 > Tulsa District > Tulsa District News Stories (http://www.swt.usace.army.mil/Media/NewsStories/tabid/4953/Article/3885/drought-update-jan-24.aspx)

It is Canton's problem now. Soon, it will be OKC's problem.

Unless OKC has cheap access to water that doesn't come from the region, I'd say OKC and the region are competing for the same water. Can OKC's water rights guarantee that there will be water there? in Canton? without debilitating THAT region? OU prides itself, according to one poster on another thread, in pumping its own water for landscape watering. Does that magically NOT come from the same Central Oklahoma Aquifer I use on my land? If OKC has water rights to 50 dry lakes, will OKC still have water? what about 51 dry lakes? 100 dry lakes?

Okc has the pipeline to the southeast at full on. They have tons of water rights in the south east

Okc has the pipeline to the southeast at full on. They have tons of water rights in the south east

Then why don't they use those rights? Instead they will draw Canton to inactive. Why would they choose to do that it they have a choice? Why would they choose an ecological disaster that will last for years? When Canton Lake is dead, OKC will be blamed. They have not been good stewards, nor have they warned the public that is dependent on that water.

Then why don't they use those rights? Instead they will draw Canton to inactive. Why would they choose to do that it they have a choice? Why would they choose an ecological disaster that will last for years? When Canton Lake is dead, OKC will be blamed. They have not been good stewards, nor have they warned the public that is dependent on that water.

While the station at Draper can reach most of the city, their are some parts on the west side (probably includes some of the suburbs they have agreements with) that still need to get water from the Hefner plant (presumably why the number stated was around 200,000). They have been doing work to increased both the reach and volume that can directed to the west side from Draper. However their is the issue that during a normal summer Draper and Hefner generally both get up to their max capacities and they pull the old station at Overholser online; rationing should help, banning watering yards totally would do even more if it is that desperate.

Then why don't they use those rights? Instead they will draw Canton to inactive. Why would they choose to do that it they have a choice? Why would they choose an ecological disaster that will last for years? When Canton Lake is dead, OKC will be blamed. They have not been good stewards, nor have they warned the public that is dependent on that water.

All of that water is Okc property

OKC leases storage. If there is no water in their storage space there is no water.

If OKC has other sources, why would they choose to destroy Canton Lake and the economy around that resource, just because "All of that water is Okc property". Wouldn't it make sense to protect that resource because it has great value to many people, OKC included?

More about the Canton/OKC water crisis:

Oklahoma State Senate
Communications Division
State Capitol
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73105

For Immediate Release: January 24, 2012

Sen. Marlatt urges OKC to adopt more aggressive water conservation; says planned draw down would kill Canton Lake for 5 to 10 years
(For digital audio, go to Oklahoma Senate - Home Page (http://www.oksenate.gov) and select “Media”)

OKLAHOMA CITY –Taking an additional 30,000 acre-feet of water from Canton Lake would only be a temporary fix for Oklahoma City’s water woes, but the immediate and long-term impact on western Oklahoma would be devastating, with repercussions for the entire state, said State Sen. Bryce Marlatt, R-Woodward. He urged Oklahoma City officials to be better stewards of the resource—and better neighbors to Western Oklahoma.
The state’s largest city announced watering limits last week, but Marlatt said that move was really too little, too late. This week it was reported that the city’s water utilities department will present plans for more aggressive conservation measures, including higher prices and increased rationing, over the next few weeks. Marlatt said those should be enacted before taking water from western Oklahoma.
“Everyone knows we are in a prolonged drought, and cutting back on outdoor watering in the dead of winter really isn’t a solution. Oklahoma City’s ultimate plan is a huge draw on Canton Lake, the main recreational lake in western Oklahoma, but this is essentially going to kill our lake,” Marlatt said. “Legally, they have the right to do it. But it doesn’t make it morally right. Oklahoma City needs to do everything it possibly can to avoid this draw down for as long as possible.”
Canton Lake is not only important to fisherman who head there for the plentiful walleye, sand bass, catfish and more—it is also the walleye hatchery for the entire state. The plan to draw an additional 30,000 acre-feet of water would end that.
“It is essentially going to kill the lake for five to 10 years. All the game fish that people come for will die out, and there will be no more walleye hatchery,” Marlatt said. “This is going to have a negative impact on lakes throughout Oklahoma.”
Although Oklahoma City has the legal rights to the water in Canton Lake, it is still a critical part of western Oklahoma’s tourism and recreation, but like the hatchery, any recreational use of the lake will become a thing of the past once the water is gone.

“Once they draw the water, recreational boating will be nonexistent. The remaining water will not reach a single boat ramp. People who come to boat and fish will stop coming and it’s going to impact local economies—restaurants, grocery stores, gas stations, and cabin rentals will see all those dollars go away,” Marlatt said. “That’s going to have a chain reaction in our local economy.”
Rep. Mike Sanders, R-Kingfisher, said it is critical for Oklahoma City to view taking the water from Lake Canton as a last resort to be avoided as long as possible. He also urged the metro to look at more aggressive ways to limit water use.
“The economic and environmental impact to Canton and western Oklahoma will be felt for years to come if this goes through,” Sanders said. “This is a dire situation, and the fact of the matter is, if they aren’t conserving water, then they are actually wasting water. We simply don’t have the water to waste.”
Marlatt called the situation a disaster for western Oklahoma, and a potential disaster for Oklahoma City.
“At best, this is only a temporary fix for Oklahoma City,” Marlatt said. “But once they take this water from Canton Lake, that’s it--the water will be gone and people in both parts of the state are going to pay the price for Oklahoma City not doing more to conserve this precious resource.”

not advocating the draw, but if folks in control of leasing decisions didn't want water levels to drop from level X to level Y, why were lease payments accepted for storing and water rights for any of the water between levels X and Y? Why didn't those who control leasing storage say, back when, they wouldn't lease that much additional water storage. Instead of taking money to hold the water, why didn't they say sorry, that water is needed here. To make it available would be bad for the lake, bad for the immediate local economy and bad for other lakes?

Seems that today's danger will robinson argument would be a stronger argument if they hadn't already agreed, and been paid, to hold the water for someone else to use when the someone else's choose.

not advocating the draw, but if folks in control of leasing decisions didn't want water levels to drop from level X to level Y, why were lease payments accepted for storing and water rights for any of the water between levels X and Y? Why didn't those who control leasing storage say, back when, they wouldn't lease that much additional water storage. Instead of taking money to hold the water, why didn't they say sorry, that water is needed here. To make it available would be bad for the lake, bad for the immediate local economy and bad for other lakes?

Seems that today's danger will robinson argument would be a stronger argument if they hadn't already agreed, and been paid, to hold the water for someone else to use when the someone else's choose.


They can't change the rules in the middle of the game. It appears to me that this water is OKCs water to do whatever they want to do with it. I doubt that OKC will or wants to kill lake Canton.

Canton and the surrounding towns are not parties in the contract between the Corps of Engineers (federal government) and the OKCWT (city of OKC). They derive no share of the the funds, nor are they allowed a part of any of the negotiations.

The circumstances surrounding the contract have changed. The most obvious change is the drought. Currently, there is little if any inflow into Canton Lake. While inflow is nil, OKC continues to live as it did during wet times. OKC must be more responsible in its water usage or seek other means to support it's habit.

Current water studies by the USGS suggest Canton no longer has the ability to recharge as it did when the contract was signed.

OKC has expanded water use from Hefner to a much larger group of people and projects. When maps began, long after the storage contract, OKC "promised" they would use wells for the project, but that soon failed, and instead of seeking another direction, they looked once again to Canton Lake. Where will OKC get the water to irrigate the new 70 acre park? In many ways, water, like cash is fungible. In this drought, Canton Lake cannot continue to sustain OKC's luxury water use.

The last silt studies were done in 1977. Without new silt studies, there was/is no way to know how much water is in Canton Lake. The lake levels in the contract were set between two big governments. I doubt there was much consideration for the viability of the Lake.

I do not believe the residents of OKC "want" to kill Canton Lake. It doesn't matter whether they want to or not, the result is the same. I do believe very few understand or care to understand the situation, and your public officials are not telling you what will happen. Often, replies to pleas from western Oklahoma is "this water is OKCs water to do whatever they want to do with it."

One of Canton and the surrounding areas requests is wait to draw water as long as physically possible. Often there are beneficial spring rains between Canton and OKC that may alleviate the need to draw water from Canton for the year. Sometimes, OKC has drawn water, then received rains, and were forced to let that water go by. In this drought, you should think of Canton Lake not as a credit card to be used often, but like a savings account to be used sparingly and only in absolute emergencies. As long as the water is in Canton, it is available. If you draw, it will be gone, the Lake will die, and in this drought not recharge. As long as that situation continues, there will be no water for OKC. Your water storage space will be empty.

Isn't it better to be know the problem you face? Would you blame the messenger for telling you the truth?

The lake levels in the contract were set between two big governments. I doubt there was much consideration for the viability of the Lake.

It was not, most of the Oklahoma lakes of any size got funding to be built as water supplies (with consideration for flood control), in no small part from prior droughts especially the dust bowl, any recreation or local economics were considered side benefit.

It was not, most of the Oklahoma lakes of any size got funding to be built as water supplies (with consideration for flood control), in no small part from prior droughts especially the dust bowl, any recreation or local economics were considered side benefit.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I did not mean the original building of the lake contract, I meant the water storage contract in the '90's was between the feds and OKC. Enid actually had the earlier contract for water storage. They relinquished rights when they started using wells near Cleo Springs. The levels OKC can draw from, between 1615.4 ft and 1596.5 ft, is established in that contract.