indefinitely no, Dallas is having to figure out the problem too. I have a 34K gallon swimming pool, not looking forward to paying more but understand its part of it. Conservation to a degree, with more capacity and availability of water East of us is the only answer.

Why is it only conservation to a degree? Is there really not enough evidence to convince you that we need to be doing all we can to conserve our resources and utilize them cautiously?

I don't get it either. Conservation is the only solution that works every time.

I have a 34K gallon swimming pool, not looking forward to paying more but understand its part of it..

I'm looking forward to you paying more! That or you better invite all of OKCtalk to use your pool this summer. It's only fair. ;P

I have a 34K gallon swimming pool, not looking forward to paying more but understand its part of it.

Just for giggles, how much would it have to cost before you decided not to fill your pool?

I don't get it either. Conservation is the only solution that works every time.
So, basically, you are asking/requesting that people that have worked hard and achieved enough in life to have a pool at their home, to not fill the pool and use it. That sounds like communistic thinking. And you expect people to take you seriously? You must be a communist. That has already been tried in eastern Europe. Didn't work.

^Wow

So, basically, you are asking/requesting that people that have worked hard and achieved enough in life to have a pool at their home, to not fill the pool and use it. That sounds like communistic thinking. And you expect people to take you seriously? You must be a communist. That has already been tried in eastern Europe. Didn't work.

JTF won't be the one not taken seriously.

someone obviously doesn't read many of JTF's posts. He's read a lot of books, and all his ideas would in his views solve the world's problems (just ask him).

Lesson here, understand the source.

It was a simple question based on a simple premise. The whole idea behind the rate increase is to price people out of the water market so that overall consumption is reduced. Stickman said he wasn't happy about paying more but was going to do it anyhow. I am simply curious how much water would have to cost before it priced him out of the market.

It was a simple question based on a simple premise. The whole idea behind the rate increase is to price people out of the water market so that overall consumption is reduced. Stickman said he wasn't happy about paying more but was going to do it anyhow. I am simply curious how much water would have to cost before it priced him out of the market.

I'm guessing for most that dropped $20k or more on a pool, the threshold might be pretty high, but who knows.

How much chlorine would it take to treat household gray water to fill a pool? :)

He could always fill it with rain water. Just route the house gutters to the pool. If I planned on ever building a house again I would put in a cistern.

This dumb, Oklahoma City is far from an arid city that has to monitor water and pay residents to pull out grass. The problem here isn't a lack of water, it's that Oklahoma City, a city that averages 36 inches of rain a year, is for some insane reason is getting water from northwestern Oklahoma, a semi-arid area that gets less than 20 inches on average a year. Oklahoma City, even in drought, gets plenty of rain for it's water needs if it were to get it locally or from eastern Oklahoma that gets even more rain.

Tulsa gets it's water basically locally in eastern Oklahoma and has no shortage and has only rationed water ever due to water treatment capacity, never due to an actual lack of water.

ignore, duplicate message

This dumb, Oklahoma City is far from an arid city that has to monitor water and pay residents to pull out grass. The problem here isn't a lack of water, it's that Oklahoma City, a city that averages 36 inches of rain a year, is for some insane reason is getting water from northwestern Oklahoma, a semi-arid area that gets less than 20 inches on average a year. Oklahoma City, even in drought, gets plenty of rain for it's water needs if it were to get it locally or from eastern Oklahoma that gets even more rain.

Tulsa gets it's water basically locally in eastern Oklahoma and has no shortage and has only rationed water ever due to water treatment capacity, never due to an actual lack of water.

What are you doing bring average weather statistics to this conversation, clearly this is about taking things to (or past) logical extremes for a worst case senerio

So, basically, you are asking/requesting that people that have worked hard and achieved enough in life to have a pool at their home, to not fill the pool and use it. That sounds like communistic thinking. And you expect people to take you seriously? You must be a communist. That has already been tried in eastern Europe. Didn't work.

He's not asking that they not fill the pool and use it. He's asking that they pay a fair price to use it. So the question is, what is fair?

Do you think it would be fair for Harold Hamm to install 100 Fire Hydrants on a variety of properties throughout NW OKC, open them all up at the same time, and run them until it drained Lake Hefner dry for what would cost him less than one of his $10B+ net worth? Is there any price you would deem acceptable for Harold Hamm to do that?

If your answer to that is anything other than "Hell No" then your brand of capitalism is far less moral than any brand of communism that has ever graced the face of this earth.

Death to all people with yards and swimming pools. Evil, evil, evil.

:Smiley122
I have a pool = I must be the devil (Republican)



guess what ?
Your right, I also smoke cigars and drink scotch ha ha

What are you doing bring average weather statistics to this conversation, clearly this is about taking things to (or past) logical extremes for a worst case senerio

haha, RIGHT?!? Why would we ever plan for a worst case scenario with something as precious as water?! And let's be sure to use average weather statistics when there's an increasing body of evidence that the averages are shifting due to new extremes! That's so smart! lulz.

This dumb, Oklahoma City is far from an arid city that has to monitor water and pay residents to pull out grass. The problem here isn't a lack of water, it's that Oklahoma City, a city that averages 36 inches of rain a year, is for some insane reason is getting water from northwestern Oklahoma, a semi-arid area that gets less than 20 inches on average a year. Oklahoma City, even in drought, gets plenty of rain for it's water needs if it were to get it locally or from eastern Oklahoma that gets even more rain.

Tulsa gets it's water basically locally in eastern Oklahoma and has no shortage and has only rationed water ever due to water treatment capacity, never due to an actual lack of water.

If it was suggested anywhere that residents pull out their grass, I missed it. And the problem IS a lack of water. You point it out yourself in your post. If OKC wasn't suffering from a lack of water, why in the hell would we even be talking about where we're going to get more of it from?

You do bring up a valid point about why OKC is pulling water from a more arid region, which is beyond dumb, but even some of the lakes in the eastern part of the state weren't (and some still aren't) full until the recent rains.

I'm consistently amazed by some of the attitudes. You'd have to have your head in the sand to not notice that there are parts of the state (and country) that are experiencing a water shortage. Further, it would be rather sophomoric to believe that, just because my little block of the world isn't experiencing a shortage of any sort, that'll never change. Also, I am somewhat baffled by the idea that even if there is a problem, some have faith in science and technology ... of the future -- something like "I'm not worried because we'll soon have developed technology that will make water much cleaner/more usable/plentiful. Maybe not yet, but soon." Finally, I'm amazed by the ability to ignore the fact that things that happen to the Ogallala Aquifer are totally independent of anything that happens above the ground external to the Ogallala Aquifer -- that somehow they recharge magically and only based on rain in the immediate vicinity of the aquifer or that they will never be drained for uses distant from the aquifer.
Oh, well, consider me puzzled, then.
Personally, I believe that there IS a problem (everywhere). I'm thinking that the solution falls into determining that water is a precious mineral resource and people (and business entities, including agriculture and oil companies) will pay for it according to their use. I also hope that as the ocean levels rise the cost for desalination and transportation fall and we can pump potable (or at least clean) water back to the depleted aquifers, but I'm not just sticking my head in the sand and waiting for the desalination fairy to wave his or her magic wand!

If it was suggested anywhere that residents pull out their grass, I missed it. And the problem IS a lack of water. You point it out yourself in your post. If OKC wasn't suffering from a lack of water, why in the hell would we even be talking about where we're going to get more of it from?

You do bring up a valid point about why OKC is pulling water from a more arid region, which is beyond dumb, but even some of the lakes in the eastern part of the state weren't (and some still aren't) full until the recent rains.

If the lakes in the eastern part of the state aren't full, then why does Texas covet their water?

Never said we don't have problems
1. we are in a drought cycle right now.
2. Population has dramatically increased
3. Yes we are sprawling, how do we stop it? Cut off Mustang or Blanchard, etc.?

I don't want the government to keep making new rules. If I like that scenario I would move back to California.

If the lakes in the eastern part of the state aren't full, then why does Texas covet their water?

Never said we don't have problems
1. we are in a drought cycle right now.
2. Population has dramatically increased
3. Yes we are sprawling, how do we stop it? Cut off Mustang or Blanchard, etc.?

I don't want the government to keep making new rules. If I like that scenario I would move back to California.

Because Texas doesn't have enough water either? I mean it isn't rocket science... (it's climate science, :))

1. Right. The drought is reducing our available supply.
2. Right. The increased population growth is straining the reduced supply.
3. Right. There are a number of ways to combat and/or reduce sprawl, many of which we discuss on this forum.

Okay, that's great. How do you propose a non-governmental entity deal with water issues, such as shortages? Who should set the rules for various enterprises that consume water? You don't like the government, so who takes responsibility for water policy?

I'm not saying conservation is a bad thing, but what I am saying is that Oklahoma City gets enough rain that this should not be an issue. Here's data I looked up on Tulsa's water system.

This information is for most of the metro area as most suburbs buy water from Tulsa. The Tulsa area’s two holding reservoirs are Lake Yahola at Mohawk Park and the Lynn Lane Reservoir in east Tulsa. They hold a combined 3.1 billion gallons of water. Tulsa’s average water usage is about 100 million gallons a day, so about a month’s usage.

The reservoirs in Tulsa are fed by up to four lakes. Lake Oologah north of the city, and Euchee, Spavinaw and Hudson lakes to the east.

Water levels for lakes currently in use:
Oologah – 642 feet, 5 feet above full pool, the lake at full holds 226.1 billion gallons of water
Eucha – 778 feet, at full pool, the lake at full holds 24.7 billion gallons of water
Spavinaw – 680 feet, 2 feet below full pool, the lake at full holds 9.6 billion gallons of water

Water levels for lakes not currently in use:
Hudson – 620 feet, 1 foot above full pool, the lake at full holds 67.5 billion gallons of water

All together Tulsa’s water system is holding 330 billion gallons of water right now, enough for the next nine YEARS of usage, and this is after five years of drought.

I’m not saying that conservation is a bad thing, but why is Oklahoma City in a crisis when 100 miles away lack of water isn’t even an issue on anyone’s mind?

Swake, the problem is that the water in those lakes is already accounted for by other entities. Its not just sitting there in surplus. One of the biggest claims on the water is to keep the Arkansas River open to commercial shipping traffic and that very issue came up a few years ago and whatever agency is in charge sided with commercial interest over drinking it.

Swake, the problem is that the water in those lakes is already accounted for by other entities. Its not just sitting there in surplus. One of the biggest claims on the water is to keep the Arkansas River open to commercial shipping traffic and that very issue came up a few years ago and whatever agency is in charge sided with commercial interest over drinking it.

The city of Tulsa outright owns Spavinaw and Eucha. The city built them and owns them. There's no issue of water rights with those lakes.

Lake Ooolgah's drainage basin is some 4,400 square miles that gets more than three and half feet of rain a year. That means Oologah's drainage basin takes in more than Three Trillion gallons of rainfall a year. Keeping the lake full is just a proverbial drop in the bucket. Lake Hudson, which is not even used, has a drainage basin twice the size of Oologah's.

Skiatook is the only lake in the northeast that I am aware of that is not full, even now, and that is due to the drought and Skiatook's relatively small drainage basin of just 354 square miles

It was a simple question based on a simple premise. The whole idea behind the rate increase is to price people out of the water market so that overall consumption is reduced. Stickman said he wasn't happy about paying more but was going to do it anyhow. I am simply curious how much water would have to cost before it priced him out of the market.

The primary reason for the rate increase was to fund new infrastructure so OKC can keep growing.

The primary reason for the rate increase was to fund new infrastructure so OKC can keep growing.

The point at which you price water where market forces take hold and it becomes a real household and business cost driving down demand you are going to do great harm to poor people and irreparable harm to the overall economy.

This link was cited upthread:

OKLAHOMA CITY – City officials introduced new water utility pay rates and a multiyear implementation Tuesday to help raise funds for a $700 million pipeline and other water infrastructure needs.

The rate changes, expected to be approved by the City Council next month and go into effect shortly thereafter, will affect all residential, business and wholesale consumers of Oklahoma City water, including several other municipalities in the metro area.

The money will go toward building a second pipeline running parallel to the current one that brings much of the city’s water from Lake Atoka 100 miles away. Water Utilities Director Marsha Slaughter said work on designing the pipeline will begin this year.

Rick Giardina from Raftelis Financial Consultants introduced the proposed changes to the City Council on Tuesday.

“Revenue needs are driven by capital improvements … and the water utilities and wastewater utilities in this country are the most capital-intensive utilities to operate,” Giardina said. “And the single most-important project is this pipeline.”

It has been more than 10 years since a study was performed on the city’s water needs compared with projected growth. The current study, which forecast revenue requirements through fiscal year 2024, identifies expenses, rates and fees by customer class.

Slaughter referred to the changes as an inclining-block structure that would encourage conservation, because increased water use pushes customers into more expensive tiers. Oklahoma City water customers currently pay the same price for each 1,000 gallons of water used.

Read more: Rate increases in the pipeline: OKC Council considers tiered water billing system | The Journal Record (http://journalrecord.com/2014/08/12/rate-increases-in-the-pipeline-okc-council-considers-tiered-water-billing-system-general-news/#ixzz3YpEJMjyx)

duplicate

Swake, the problem is that the water in those lakes is already accounted for by other entities. Its not just sitting there in surplus. One of the biggest claims on the water is to keep the Arkansas River open to commercial shipping traffic and that very issue came up a few years ago and whatever agency is in charge sided with commercial interest over drinking it.

The problem at that time was that there was too much water. The Corp of Engineers was holding water back in Hudson, Grand, Oologah, etc to the detriment of recreation, to keep flows manageable on the Kerr-McClelland waterway for barge traffic.

The point at which you price water where market forces take hold and it becomes a real household and business cost driving down demand you are going to do great harm to poor people and irreparable harm to the overall economy.

Not if you were to carefully scale the price to levels of usage.

Reading all of the comments demonizing pools on the previous page.... I really don't understand why Oklahomacitians don't grow thicker, taller, more lush grass.

Their seems to be this obsession with mico shaved Bermuda lawns. If we didn't have clay soil, these lawns would probably fair better. They always seem to bake though and worse offenders pour thousands of gallons on them to keep them alive. I water my lawn for 8 minutes maybe two times, three at most, during the harshest part of the year.

In the land where the dust bowl occurred, why did simple conservation methods get thrown out the window in the urban areas?

Pic for giggles. I like my tall grass.

http://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10715&stc=1

Canton Lake getting some rain. Maybe the lake will pull through and make it afterall. Hasn't looked good for a few years but things are looking up.

Are there any fish left in canton?

I was shooting some pics at Hefner the past couple of mornings. There is water flowing into the lake, and apparently has been for about two weeks now. Hefner's level is up about 3 feet from where it was. I have a couple of shots but can't seem to be able to post them here as attachments.

Will this rain the next week fill up lake Hefner ? And/or canton!

Will this rain the next week fill up lake Hefner ? And/or canton!

No. We're 12+ FEET away from being full at Hefner. This rain will certainly help, but I don't think we're getting anywhere near 12 Feet. Canton is 24 feet away from being full…you may as well just go ahead and write off the idea of Canton being full within the next decade.

No. We're 12+ FEET away from being full at Hefner. This rain will certainly help, but I don't think we're getting anywhere near 12 Feet. Canton is 24 feet away from being full…you may as well just go ahead and write off the idea of Canton being full within the next decade.

Future lake level are notoriously difficult to predict, which is why it is a good idea to have multiple sources with different catchment areas, there was actually a ridiculous percentage of times we got large rainfalls just north, south, east or west of it's catchment areas during the last few years of drought (which are fairly narrow in western Oklahoma, probably not limited to just West OK but that is all I have looked much into the topography). Realistically if it just starts getting back near the average it should be doing well a decade out.

This rain has helped Hefner. It's up a foot and a half in the past ten days and is now only a little over 9 feet below normal.

Are there any fish left in canton?

Yes, a lot of fish.

To clarify, we are currently 9.5' below "full" (optimal elevation, which is 1199' above sea level) at Hefner. Based on the performance of the last round of heavy rains (where we picked up about 1-1/2') AND the forecast through Sunday, I would guess we could pick up another foot or two between rain accumulation and subsequent runoff. So while we won't see a "full" Hefner, the situation is definitely improved over a few weeks ago when we were down well over 12'.

You can watch Hefner's condition here (I've developed a weird fascination with this issue and check Hefer and Canton elevations every day): USGS Current Conditions for USGS 07159550 Lake Hefner at Oklahoma City, OK (http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ok/nwis/uv?site_no=07159550)

Regarding Canton, optimal elevation is the top of its conservation pool, which is 1615.4' above sea level. Currently it sits at 1604.17', or roughly 11' low. Recent rains improved the VOLUME of the lake nearly 10%, from 21-ish% to 29.1%. The bad news is that while direct accumulation will continue to raise the elevation, runoff will do so at a progressively less-dramatic extent, since the water spreads over a larger and larger surface area as the lake fills. That said, the VOLUME will continue to accumulate at the same rate. Canton is about to see 30% of its conservation pool full for the first time in years.

To follow Canton's progress visit THIS site: Canton Lake (http://www.swt-wc.usace.army.mil/CANT.lakepage.html)

Not to quibble, but I think Teo's "full" numbers were based on the top of each lake's respective flood control pools, which would be considered NOT optimal and truthfully undesirable (too full). What we are looking for is called "top of the conservation pool" on the Canton website.

Are there any fish left in canton?

A draw down of a lake can actually improve the fishery. Fewer places for little fish to hide means bigger fish overall.

So Lake Hefner hasn't really got hit with much tonight, but downtown and some areas to the north have been hit pretty good (though nothing like Tuttle/Norman).

Does much of the drainage from this area make its way to Hefner?

So Lake Hefner hasn't really got hit with much tonight, but downtown and some areas to the north have been hit pretty good (though nothing like Tuttle/Norman).

Does much of the drainage from this area make its way to Hefner?

I live just south of Hefner. We certainly haven't had as much as the South side but it has still been a tremendous amount and it's still coming down strong.

I'm down the street from Overholser and it's been pouring down for awhile. It was reported sometime this evening there was 3.5" just north of Overholser, which would be in the watershed that could end up in Hefner if they flow it down the canal. Mesonet shows 2.54" OKC North and 5.39" OKC West since midnight. (I'm not sure where those stations are.) There was a tornado and some rain at Canton. Not sure how much below Canton dam that might end up here.

One of those mesonet stations is right west of Overholser. Anything below Hefner drains to the super span channel/tunnel beneath 44 I believe

Snip

Great post. You touched on this, but I thought I would try to clarify it a little more. For a water source lake, volume is more important than elevation. As the elevation increases the area of the lake expands (in Oklahoma the surface area expands a lot with elevation), so volume is not linearly proportional to elevation. At Canton Lake, the inactive pool is 21.5' tall and holds 13897 acre-feet, but the Conservation Pool is only 18.9' tall and holds 95845 acre-feet. So even though the conservation pool is has 2.6' less feet than the inactive pool, it holds 690% more volume.

The same is also very true with river/streams. The amount of flow goes way up with more elevation.

Anyways, here is a link for the canal feed Hefner that I thought was interesting: USGS Current Conditions for USGS 07240000 Lake Hefner Canal near Oklahoma City, OK (http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ok/nwis/uv?site_no=07240000) Right now the Canal is flowing an acre-foot every 2.8 minutes, earlier today it was at about an acre-foot every 29 seconds.

Looks like we picked up another foot at hefner. And urbanized is right, you want top of conservation pool not flood pool. Top of flood pool means water is going over the spillway and that is not a good thing either.

Waterdatafortexas.org is another good site. The army core of engineer sites are good as well. You can basically find any lake level by google x lake level.

Hefner has picked up more than 6" in the past 24 hours. Closing in on an 8' deficit!

I got an email from The City of OKC yesterday telling those of us that have wet slips rented to be ready for the rising waters affecting our boats. I hope that doesn't jinx the rain we've been getting. (Actually I don't have a slip as of May 1 but they apparently don't update the list too quickly).

Lake eufala's inflow is madness. Jumped 7,000 acre feet in one hour. EUFO2: Eufaula Lake (tabular) (http://www.swt-wc.usace.army.mil/webdata/gagedata/EUFO2.current.html)

Today's storms should really help out Lake Hefner. Looks like a ton of rain directly over the lake and northward where streams that feed into it should get plenty.

Canton is getting a soaker right now too. Lots of rain north and west of the city, moving through W and NW Oklahoma right now. This is exactly what Canton and Hefner need. Hefner is now almost within 7 feet of optimal. The Hefner deficit has been cut in half over the past couple of weeks.

Doesn't affect OKC, but we do a lot of work with Foss Resevoir, and they've also been a huge beneficiary the last few weeks.

It has all no doubt been great for Hefner! But someone correct me if I am wrong but doesnt Canton have a pretty small watershed. Which is why it has so many problems because it takes a pretty localized (like today and recently) to really help it. The south Canadian is only like 30 miles away so I think it takes a lot of the water. As for Hefner I think( again could be very much wrong) but it takes more westward water as a good amount of north city creeks and northwards flow towards the cimarron river. I am actually curious what all feeds Hefner so I'd love if someone actually knows what feeds it vs what doesnt.

It must be overloading the river and canal or something. Neither Overholser or Hefner are full and they are flowing some of the water through the dam at Overholser.

USGS Current Conditions for USGS 07241000 North Canadian River blw Lk Overholser nr OKC, OK (http://waterdata.usgs.gov/usa/nwis/uv?07241000)

Overhosler is full and water is heading toward Eufaula? I would bet that after this weekend that Hefner is full also. Too bad Canton isn't getting the really heavy stuff like we are.

Streets are running like rivers right now and it's to bad that water isn't going to Canton and the other lakes that need it.

hfry: Right you are about Canton. The North Canadian (that feeds Canton) has a very narrow watershed. The (South) Canadian is indeed close to the south and the Cimarron is not too far to the north. If you ever drive from say, Watonga to Seiling to Woodward you are pretty much driving along the ridge dividing the North and (South) Canadian Rivers' watersheds. You can see the tree line along the North Canadian to your right and you can see that it is not that far away. That's a pretty good indicator of how narrow the North Canadian River's watershed really is. So much for geography of NW Oklahoma.

hfry: Right you are about Canton. The North Canadian (that feeds Canton) has a very narrow watershed. The (South) Canadian is indeed close to the south and the Cimarron is not too far to the north. If you ever drive from say, Watonga to Seiling to Woodward you are pretty much driving along the ridge dividing the North and (South) Canadian Rivers' watersheds. You can see the tree line along the North Canadian to your right and you can see that it is not that far away. That's a pretty good indicator of how narrow the North Canadian River's watershed really is. So much for geography of NW Oklahoma.

Why can't the river waters be diverted to Canton?

Honestly that seems like poor planning on the part of the Corps of Engineers. Like it was set up for failure. I know that until recent years the rains have been more plentiful and it really wasn't a problem for decades, but when Congress authorized the Lake in 1938 the Dust Bowl was in full effect. They should have known better.