Excellent news for our fellow Okies concened about the protection of their natural resources. No more stongarm plays by OKC and their co-conspirators at OWRB like what they tried with Sardis.Capitol Report, Wayne Greene: Rural areas 1, cities 0 in water wars | Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Rural_areas_1_cities_0_in_water_wars/20130623_11_A21_OKLAHO815087)

Just got back to Colorado from West Texas, drove through the panhandle four times in the last two weeks and will again next weekend. The sections visible from US-287 are just in Oklahoma but it bends away from the tracks and road a few miles north of Boise City so I am not sure where it is headed after that point. I do know there has been a "greening" of the vegetation on the Colorado Eastern Plains from the first trip down on June 10 and the subsequent trips on the 13th, 16th and yesterday. Still awfully dry as you get right near the Colorado-Oklahoma border and points south.


What size & type of pipe are we talking here?
From driving by at 65 mph it looks to be about 18" green PVC pipe.

It's a case of our checking account being in great condition but our savings account a little too low for comfort.

By strong arming you mean exercising our legal rights to the water we own?

Just curious what mandatory watering restrictions are in place in Canton right now?

Excellent news for our fellow Okies concened about the protection of their natural resources. No more stongarm plays by OKC and their co-conspirators at OWRB like what they tried with Sardis.Capitol Report, Wayne Greene: Rural areas 1, cities 0 in water wars | Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Rural_areas_1_cities_0_in_water_wars/20130623_11_A21_OKLAHO815087)

did this bill get signed by the gov?

did this bill get signed by the gov?

I believe it was signed into law on May 31, 2013.

Another brilliant move by Fallin to not veto this.

Interesting note from the article:

Panhandle residents use a lot more water on a per capita basis, so they need a louder voice in setting water policy.

I wonder when they start conserving?

Interesting note from the article:

Panhandle residents use a lot more water on a per capita basis, so they need a louder voice in setting water policy.

I wonder when they start conserving?

Maybe when folks stop desiring their crops, cattle and hogs?

Excellent news for our fellow Okies concened about the protection of their natural resources. No more stongarm plays by OKC and their co-conspirators at OWRB like what they tried with Sardis.Capitol Report, Wayne Greene: Rural areas 1, cities 0 in water wars | Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Rural_areas_1_cities_0_in_water_wars/20130623_11_A21_OKLAHO815087)

If you look a little closer at the gerrymandering, while Oklahoma county and Tulsa county only get a representative each, the suburbs of OKC and Tulsa will be the majority in four of the other districts.

Excellent news for our fellow Okies concened about the protection of their natural resources. No more stongarm plays by OKC and their co-conspirators at OWRB like what they tried with Sardis.Capitol Report, Wayne Greene: Rural areas 1, cities 0 in water wars | Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Rural_areas_1_cities_0_in_water_wars/20130623_11_A21_OKLAHO815087)

The only strong arm play here was from the rural legislators.....Hope it's not a real water war where OKC would drain Sardis in retaliation. j/k

Excellent news for our fellow Okies concened about the protection of their natural resources. No more stongarm plays by OKC and their co-conspirators at OWRB like what they tried with Sardis.Capitol Report, Wayne Greene: Rural areas 1, cities 0 in water wars | Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Rural_areas_1_cities_0_in_water_wars/20130623_11_A21_OKLAHO815087)

Don't get your hopes up too much. This is a gross violation of "one person-one vote" and could probably be overturned by a smart lawyer on constitutional grounds.

The only strong arm play here was from the rural legislators.....Hope it's not a real water war where OKC would drain Sardis in retaliation. j/k

OKC draining Sardis is what the folks in SE Ok are rightfully worried about. It's their heritage and not meant to fuel hideous sprawl in Tarrent Co or OKC.

OKC draining Sardis is what the folks in SE Ok are rightfully worried about. It's their heritage and not meant to fuel hideous sprawl in Tarrent Co or OKC.

it is not their heritage ... and it was very much built to provide water to the people and business of oklahoma ...

By strong arming you mean exercising our legal rights to the water we own?

Just curious what mandatory watering restrictions are in place in Canton right now?

I think you quoted the wrong person.

I am saying, lets conserve our water in Hefner because we have very little left of our water in Canton.

.. It's their heritage and not meant to fuel hideous sprawl [elsewhere].

With due respect, and this is coming from someone who lived in SE OK most of my years from shortly after birth into my mid twenties, where oh where did you ever get such a notion?

Sardis was a man made lake constructed in the late 70's and very early 80's by the Army Corps of Engineers. The reason it was constructed was to capture water in the Jackfork for sale. That dinna go so well, lack of buyers at the time and the state got sued, and lost, for not making the required payments. Its got its recreational uses, but it's no more someone's heritage than than any other Corps of Engineers constructed reservoir of that era.

The Kiamichi Watershed is most definately the heritage of SE Ok. it'd be a tragedy if OKC and/or Tarrent Co are alolowed to stick a straw into it.

I think you quoted the wrong person.

I am saying, lets conserve our water in Hefner because we have very little left of our water in Canton.

Yeah, I quoted the wrong person. Sorry, I agree with you. We all need to do what we can to conserve our water. I just don't like the lectures from other parts of the state telling us what we need to to do with our water when they aren't living by the same standards.

The Kiamichi Watershed is most definately the heritage of SE Ok. it'd be a tragedy if OKC and/or Tarrent Co are alolowed to stick a straw into it.

Right, go ahead and let that water drain into the Red, and be wasted due to the inequalties of the Red. Edgar, what good is it to go to waste ? OKC paid the bill to the Army Corp for the dam and water impoundment, thus buying the rights to the water ( I know not everyone is agreement who owns at this point).

The Kiamichi Watershed is most definately the heritage of SE Ok. it'd be a tragedy if OKC and/or Tarrent Co are alolowed to stick a straw into it.

sardis and the kiamichi watershed .. are not the same thing ..

The Kiamichi Watershed is most definately the heritage of SE Ok. it'd be a tragedy if OKC and/or Tarrent Co are alolowed to stick a straw into it.

But Sardis is not a heritage of any people, unless the people you are talking about are a family whose paternal and maternal lineage met while working for the Corps of Engineers building that lake. To truly honor the heritage of SE Oklahoma, OKC should drain that lake and return it to the river it once was.

The Kiamichi Watershed is most definately the heritage of SE Ok. it'd be a tragedy if OKC and/or Tarrent Co are alolowed to stick a straw into it.

Well, Tarrant is no longer an issue, as to Sardis itself anyway, but yeah, as Sardis was built for water sales, water sales are going to take place. OKC does have a mighty big straw planned.

Now, prior to Sardis, the heritage of the area was this: the waters of the Jackfork water simply ran on through the area to points beyond the area.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I have to part company with you as to Sardis being some long held heritage.
Sardis functions today as it was designed to function over 30 years ago. Dam the Jackfork, capture water to be sold as Sardis Reservoir, and provide a right fair amount of ancillary recreational use, as well as tourism dollars, for the enjoyment of those in and those visiting the area. That's the actual heritage of Sardis.

Not at all sure why being able to capture the water for beneficial use and creating a recreational use area for over thirty years instead of the water flowing unimpeded out of state could possibly be considered a tragedy for southeast OK.

see Canton and Atoka for refernce.

see Canton and Atoka for refernce.

evidence of what ... that OKC owns the water rights .. and will use them ... no one disagrees with that

Edgar, stop sleeping in geography class.....LOL

Ah, ok, and here I thought you were being serious. My bad. So, I took a gander at canton and atoka or another another look at sardis as well. then I pondered, hey self, I asked myself. what if water storage reservoirs had never been built? Why self, that's easy. Water that isn't captured go on about its merry way and when not captured it ends up being used by someone else, evaporating or perhaps making its way to the ocean even, but what it doesn't do is stick around for anyone to bless it with heritage status.

Ok self, I say to myself, but if the water doesn't hang around, what about the swimming and fishing and hunting and camping opportunities? What then, cause all those things are fun and folks even drive in a right far piece to play at such things. Well, self, myself says back to me, one can wade in the crik if it flows slow enough to not be unsafe, but fast enough to not be stagnant algae farms, and one can fish, a bit anyway, provided the fish hang around, and one can camp without a lake, but yeah, it's not quite as much fun, so in general, an area sure could miss out on a lot if the heritage of the water is to just pass on through the valley.

all ritie then self, I says to myself. We'll talk more later. But right now I need to go capture a diet Dr. Pepper into a glass of ice. That's way more enjoyable than letting it tip over and drain down the sink.

Close your eyes and perhaps you can taste the pugent stench of dead Canton.

Edgar, stop sleeping in geography class.....LOL

What? that Sarids is a dammed tributary of the Kiamichi Watershed that no one cared enough to pay the debt on to the feds when thay couldn't make money selling the water. thank God the tribes have the coin to fight OKC's resource grab.

What? that Sarids is a dammed tributary of the Kiamichi Watershed that no one cared enough to pay the debt on to the feds when thay couldn't make money selling the water. thank God the tribes have the coin to fight OKC's resource grab.

"Grab" would infer some sort of eminent domain type of process. This was a purchase of water storage rights plain and simple.

What? that Sarids is a dammed tributary of the Kiamichi Watershed that no one cared enough to pay the debt on to the feds when thay couldn't make money selling the water. thank God the tribes have the coin to fight OKC's resource grab.

Do you even realize your anger is totally misdirected? OKC bailed the state out, after the state failed to honor its payment obligations. By the by, that failure rests with the elected legislature of the days gone by, including them what the good folks in the areas surrounding Sardis help elect.

I'm not in OKC, never lived there, only ever briefly even worked there, but dang man, OKC buying the storage rights for water is not something to be ticked about. As for it being OKC and not the folks in the area surrounding Sardis, well if the folks in the area had stepped up, they'd quite possibly own the storage rights and could draw as little as they pleased. So, where were these folks back when storage was for sale? Maybe acting as though something no one ever paid for was theirs simply by proximity? Gee, wonder if my neighbor would permit me to lay claim on his truck simply because it's always parked so close to my yard?
makes about as much sense as your argument makes. Oh wait, less sense, because my neighbor is probably paying for his truck.

Edgar, I know you're not old enough to vote, and you sound a little irrational for a young age.....but would you rather have OKC buy the water rights like they did ? or have the possibility of some water district in Texas buy them in years past ?

People celebrating the Scotus decision on the Tarrant lawsuit can't understand why the tribes and the folks of SE Ok are being so fussy. You're right Kevin, SE Ok isn't a high income area of our state and couldn't have paid off the reneged Sardis debt- they are blessed with great natural beauty that provides some rec tourism income. Wouldn't it be neighborly to respct that. OKC has already shown their hand with the unnecessary drawdown that wrecked Canton. This nothing but an old fashioned resource grab by OKC and their co-conspirators at the OWRB to get their hands on 90% of Sardis storage- God forbid. Got a hunch Speaker Shannon drafted the bill changing how the board is composed. How do you like me now. The tribes couldn't get a return call, literally, nor was the corp consulted. The tribes were expected to file suit, and if not, mo betta. Mary fallin failed in shaming the tribes with the front page Oklahoman propaganda piece. Pray for the tribes success in protecting the creator's blessing.2 tribes offer to pay $5.2M of Sardis Lake debt - BusinessWeek (http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9G9552O0.htm)

People celebrating the Scotus decision on the Tarrant lawsuit can't understand why the tribes and the folks of SE Ok are being so fussy.
Pray for the tribes success in protecting the creator's blessing.

That's cute. You still picture the tribes in their historical role, as opposed to their current status of a specially protected business entity evoking greed a la Gordon Gekko.

Edgar, back in the days of the debt being defaulted, and OK as a state opposing the federal suit expecting payment, there were several, several powerful players in the legislative sandbox who hailed from SE OK. I don't lay the blame solely at their feet, as there were many others who failed in equal measure on meeting the obligations for payment in that matter.

But, it's not like there was a lack of influence on the matter in a 80-100 mile radius of Sardis. And please, as for area folks nowadays being fussy, let's be clear on what's what. The OKC and tribe dispute is not about whether Sardis will have any recreational use. It's a straight up dispute on who controls the rights to use/sell many buckets worth of water stored in Sardis. A lot of money is being spent to rewrite what has already taken place regarding ownership of the storage space and its contents, but at the end of the day, the current dispute is about who will profit from the sale of water drawn off from the Corps built reservoir, not whether water will be drawn off.

That's cute. You still picture the tribes in their historical role, as opposed to their current status of a specially protected business entity evoking greed a la Gordon Gekko.

I know right, the idiginous peoples of the Americas have it made, lol as the kids say.

'Pray for the tribes success in protecting the creator's blessing.'

The Tribes aren't the only folks entitled to the creators blessings......we all do. LOL

Edgar, back in the days of the debt being defaulted, and OK as a state opposing the federal suit expecting payment, there were several, several powerful players in the legislative sandbox who hailed from SE OK. I don't lay the blame solely at their feet, as there were many others who failed in equal measure on meeting the obligations for payment in that matter.

But, it's not like there was a lack of influence on the matter in a 80-100 mile radius of Sardis. And please, as for area folks nowadays being fussy, let's be clear on what's what. The OKC and tribe dispute is not about whether Sardis will have any recreational use. It's a straight up dispute on who controls the rights to use/sell many buckets worth of water stored in Sardis. A lot of money is being spent to rewrite what has already taken place regarding ownership of the storage space and its contents, but at the end of the day, the current dispute is about who will profit from the sale of water drawn off from the Corps built reservoir, not whether water will be drawn off.

We know what OKC wants to do with the water- irrigate NW Exwy in Aug. Here's a quote taken from the NY Times-Mr. Pyle, the Choctaw chief, said he worried most about preserving the economic viability of southeastern Oklahoma for recreation. “When water goes from a region, so goes your economy,” he said. This is their heritage of the region predating statehood, the ones that survived the diaspora anyway, you remember, "as long as the grass grows and the water runs."

I know right, the idiginous peoples of the Americas have it made, lol as the kids say.

I don't know about the indigenous people of the Americas, but the tribes, sure do!

We know what OKC wants to do with the water- irrigate NW Exwy in Aug. Here's a quote taken from the NY Times-Mr. Pyle, the Choctaw chief, said he worried most about preserving the economic viability of southeastern Oklahoma for recreation. “When water goes from a region, so goes your economy,” he said. This is their heritage of the region predating statehood, the ones that survived the diaspora anyway, you remember, "as long as the grass grows and the water runs."

Even if OKC does what you say they will: irrigate NW Exwy in Aug, and even if it results in the total depletion of the lake, then the tribe will STILL be left with their heritage river, flowing just as it would as if there were no lake -- grass still growing and river still running.

This thread is proof that water will be more valuable than gold in the near future and will be the main reason for people dying, because they won't be able to afford it, and so, will go to war for it...death begets death.

Yup.. that natural progression from odd/even watering days to mass insurrection. Your post totally connected the dots there.

From driving by at 65 mph it looks to be about 18" green PVC pipe.


Likely irrigation pipe for farmers, and nothing to do with raw water or potable water for consumption. If there was a huge water pipeline for municipal use in Oklahoma that size I would have likely known about it.

kevinpate: you are correct, OKC did bail the State out of its debt that was owed. However, during a time of City layoffs and budget tightening, OKC not only paid the debt owed but overpaid by multi-millions. Not to mention the billion+ pricetag that isn't funded to build the new pipeline that is going to be required to get the water from there to here.

Yup.. that natural progression from odd/even watering days to mass insurrection. Your post totally connected the dots there.

Kevin...sometimes I truly believe you're too smart to understand what the point is. Truly went right over your head.

Point in case, several articles on Google leading to the very notion:

http://www.salon.com/2013/04/22/could_water_supplies_provoke_world_war_iii_partner/

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/clark-judge/2013/02/19/the-next-big-wars-will-be-fought-over-water

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/46824672/ns/us_news-environment/t/us-intel-water-cause-war-coming-decades/#.UcojJti0RIs

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122195532

There are too many links to post but surely now you get my post. Also, to those of you that think, "oh that will never happen here", depending on how scarce it is come 2030 and beyond, ya never know.

bump.

Average usage > average recharge = problem

Average usage > average recharge = problem

Now that it seems that the drought is over in OKC we should be fine. City lakes are getting all this water today and should be over their banks again. It looks like Canton is getting a bunch of help also. Good news for the middle of July.

Just like the parched western Oklahoma landscape, this thread revives every time it rains. :D

Here in central Oklahoma, we just reached our average annual rainfall in July.

The sky is clearly not falling...or it kind of is. Bad choice of words.

Now that it seems that the drought is over in OKC we should be fine. City lakes are getting all this water today and should be over their banks again. It looks like Canton is getting a bunch of help also. Good news for the middle of July.

Well after all the rain, Canton is at 19.13% full now. So it really didn't help them that much. It'll probably take the Fall and Winter to recover there unless we get more rain up there. I would imagine we'll see it go up some as the water travels down to it.


Here in central Oklahoma, we just reached our average annual rainfall in July.

The sky is clearly not falling...or it kind of is. Bad choice of words.

Which means nothing if we dry out and heat up through September. If you were following the drought monitor, we started to creep back into the initial stages of the drought until the retrograde low moved in. OKC itself at least has a proper water conservation plan in place to help delay any returning drought conditions with mandatory odd/even watering all the time now and varying levels based on lake levels.

Pretty amazing that that is possible when you're +21" above normal...

I was talking to a friend who lives in that area of Texas that's kinda WNW of Fort Worth and south of Wichita Falls and their 2 day rainfall total was 14.3" which has put nary a dent in their 5-year drought. Still better than nothing I told her... Certain, the folks at Canton would take that rain in their watershed.

Well after all the rain, Canton is at 19.13% full now. So it really didn't help them that much. It'll probably take the Fall and Winter to recover there unless we get more rain up there. I would imagine we'll see it go up some as the water travels down to it.



Hopefully that's at least enough to stave off the predicted fish kill apocalypse.

Average usage > average recharge = problemNow that it seems that the drought is over in OKC we should be fine. City lakes are getting all this water today and should be over their banks again. It looks like Canton is getting a bunch of help also. Good news for the middle of July.

So what happens when Hefner starts to go dry again, or are you thinking that it won't?

The sky will fall and we'll all be doomed.

nah, the sky will stay put. Mid might need an extra recycle bin once he starts bringing in water jugs to sprinkle across the lawn.

So what happens when Hefner starts to go dry again, or are you thinking that it won't?Probably the same thing that happened this time around. . . people will panic(at least a few on here might, I never once heard anyone I know panic to me about the lake) and it will start to dry up and rain will come, fill her back up. . . the process starts all over again.

People talk all the time about the weather but no-one seems to do anything about it. You may quote me on that.

People talk all the time about the weather but no-one seems to do anything about it. You may quote me on that.

Okay Mark... or should I call you Charles????

Probably the same thing that happened this time around. . . people will panic(at least a few on here might, I never once heard anyone I know panic to me about the lake) and it will start to dry up and rain will come, fill her back up. . . the process starts all over again.

Depending on when 'next time' is there might not be a lake upstream to draw from though.

Depending on when 'next time' is there might not be a lake upstream to draw from though.The weather constantly changes and there is always the possibility of a major long-term drought. I'm pretty sure the people overseeing these things, know about that. From what I've heard, there are huge projects that are underway and they will be addressing OKC's water needs for years to come.

Depending on when 'next time' is there might not be a lake upstream to draw from though.

Thats why the City hasn't put all of its eggs in one basket...



The weather constantly changes and there is always the possibility of a major long-term drought. I'm pretty sure the people overseeing these things, know about that. From what I've heard, there are huge projects that are underway and they will be addressing OKC's water needs for years to come.
Yep. We are going to drain Lake Dallas next...LOL

The weather constantly changes and there is always the possibility of a major long-term drought. I'm pretty sure the people overseeing these things, know about that. From what I've heard, there are huge projects that are underway and they will be addressing OKC's water needs for years to come.

Yep, but what if, merely a what if mind you, the accuracy of those glorious plans are made for OKC with the same amazing degree of accuracy as the projections on Project 180, or sidewalk widths and total miles for X dollars, or on-time projections or on-budget project projections that OKC is oh so famous for.

</snark>