No one in OKC cared about Sardis back in the '80s, or had any intent about paying the bill owed to the feds. The tribes did indeed try to help pay the debt and were rebuffed because the greedy bullies in OKC want it all. read this and get some perspective, and compassion perhaps.Small-town residents and local tribes battle the big city for Oklahoma's Lake Sardis - Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/13/nation/la-na-oklahoma-lake-20111113)

Sounds like to me that if those little towns around Sardis don't like it, they should have ponied up and bought the lake water rights themselves, or a portion there of...like OKC did...

Also, Sardis does NOT sit on the Choctaw or Chickasaw tribal lands, according to the article.....

Reading some of these apoplectic blogs from a couple months ago is pretty good fun. Atoka (where we pump from SE OK already) was down quite a bit. Bring on the Spring rains...

http://137.227.241.93/nwisweb/data/img/USGS.07333010.14.00065..20130131.20130531..0..gif
(capacity is 590 feet, we're at 588)

The folks referring to Atoka as "mud hole" back in 2011 seem to be exaggerating or were just unaware that the entire state was in a drought. Hefner and all of our local lakes were down too.

We seem to be at the tail end of any drought. Rainfall in most of Oklahoma has been better than normal or better in the last 30 days and if the current trend continues, give us a good tropical storm or something like that and we'll be more worried about flood control than dry lakes.

http://climate.ok.gov/data/public/mesonet/maps/daily/drought/last30daysdel.png

So Canton's low... hindsight being 20/20, we shouldn't have drained it. If we'd had a Summer like we did in 2012, we'd all be talking about how smart that was today. That said, it's primary purpose is to serve the water needs of the OKC metro. Everything else is secondary. It and Sardis are man made lakes made for flood control and water storage. That's the only reason they exist and OKC owns 'em.

I think the jest is that OKC has 4 lakes holding drinking water - Hefner, Overholser, Drapper, AND Canton. Canton is plan B and it is almost dry, and we are coming up to a time of year when plan A doesn't work so well. I have no idea what plan C is (although I remember a Simpsons episode where plan C was to move the entire town of Springfield 5 miles down the road).

The sky is falling. The sky is falling.
Whoops, no. That's flooding rains instead.

The sky is falling. The sky is falling.
Whoops, no. That's flooding rains instead.Went from record low to record high in half a year? lol

Went from record low to record high in half a year? lol

Well, plupan, I have no doubt that we will have some dry spells this summer. I just don't buy into the fear mongering of some posters.

Well, plupan, I have no doubt that we will have some dry spells this summer. I just don't buy into the fear mongering of some posters.Yeap I completely understand that. I don't even think we actually set a record high, but I could be wrong though. I'm sure we close to it. If Venture's forecast hold up we should be good this summer, or at least until June 17th. Really, I think it is weird that this thread is still "alive".

The sky is falling. The sky is falling.
Whoops, no. That's flooding rains instead.

Quick! Xeriscape your yard so you can be ready for that 7" rain!

Although the OKC metro area just got over 7 inches of rain in about 8 hours. This is on a very local scale. But it is great for replenishing water features here in OKC and points to the E and SE.

If Stars and Stripes Park isn't flooded, I'll be amazed. Driving by on Hefner Parkway today, it was an inch below the grass line...

It looks to be the highest, at a tower height of 1200.62, that it's been in the six-odd years the records go back online. Does anyone remember when it was higher, historically? At what height did the old spillway kick in?

Fort Cobb Lake is still lower than it should be. Luckily there are no river or pipes leading from it so it should still be a fun summer there. Lol

Everything west of U.S. 81 is still way below normal in terms of rain. Don't know why the dry line likes the U.S. 81 corridor this year. About half of Oklahoma is above Normal the other half is below normal.

Fort Cobb Lake is still lower than it should be. Luckily there are no river or pipes leading from it so it should still be a fun summer there. Lol

Everything west of U.S. 81 is still way below normal in terms of rain. Don't know why the dry line likes the U.S. 81 corridor this year. About half of Oklahoma is above Normal the other half is below normal.

I wonder how much Canton Lake got over the last few days? Looked like there was a heavy storm pouring down on them at one point.City lakes are overflowing today.

Fort Cobb Lake is still lower than it should be. Luckily there are no river or pipes leading from it so it should still be a fun summer there. Lol

Everything west of U.S. 81 is still way below normal in terms of rain. Don't know why the dry line likes the U.S. 81 corridor this year. About half of Oklahoma is above Normal the other half is below normal.
Just strange weather patterns, many of the summers I lived in Austin every storm seemed to go north, from Temple to the Red River they would have flooding as did the San Antonio area south. There just seemed to be a bubble that caused the storms to split and go to either side of Austin. Lake Travis was 80 feet below average (not full) at some points, the Pedernales River looked like a creek. Of course when we did get rain, it was a flooding rain for a week and then another two years of drought.

I wonder how much Canton Lake got over the last few days?

Nil compared to the metro.

Nil compared to the metro.

Well that's a shame. I was hoping that they would get a few inches with these last storms. Maybe next week.

Well that's a shame. I was hoping that they would get a few inches with these last storms. Maybe next week.

Looks like Monday there should be a storm complex moving NW to SE forming up in SW KS and moving over NW OK...so there is hope they can start to get into it.

The Spirit of Canton Lake no doubt tore Westbrook's meniscus.

Some people on the Facebook Lake Canton pages have been calling "Karma" on the tornados and floods too. I wonder if they think the same about their own plight, Lake Canton being empty, NW OK being in drought while most of the rest of the state isn't?

mkjeeves, you have obviously read my posts, and those were not from me, and not from most.

At least Lake Thunderbird is finally full.

Yes, I have friends at Norman, they were very worried. I am very happy they have a lake again.:)

It looks to be the highest, at a tower height of 1200.62, that it's been in the six-odd years the records go back online. Does anyone remember when it was higher, historically? At what height did the old spillway kick in?I've had a boat in a wet slip at Hefner for 12 years. The highest I've ever seen it before was just touching the bottom of the concrete walkways of the marina. Saturday afternoon the water was about an inch from being over the top of the walkways. That would be about 6 to 8 inches higher than it's been in 12 years.

Nothing is more reassuring than basing future water usage on the results of record setting rainfall. Average water demand should always be measured against above average rainfall. That strategy can't miss.

Nothing is more reassuring than basing future water usage on the results of record setting rainfall. Average water demand should always be measured against above average rainfall. That strategy can't miss.

Is anyone in this thread doing that?????

Is anyone in this thread doing that?????

Read the last 2 or 3 pages and decide for yourself. From my perspective I see people are saying - look the lake is full, and their analysis ends there. What they don't see is that the new water treatment plant can drain Hefner dry in 100 days.

Read the last 2 or 3 pages and decide for yourself. From my perspective I see people are saying - look the lake is full, and their analysis ends there. What they don't see is that the new water treatment plant can drain Hefner dry in 100 days.

I don't take updates on current levels as an automatic assumption of future conditions.... I see one mention of it helping us through July by one poster, but otherwise it seems your building a bit of a bridge. Besides, most of the "tone" of this thread has been driven towards posting things to jab at law a bit...

Here are some photos from Sunday:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7429/8918521657_f29311cf87_c.jpg


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5453/8919144974_9aeda1e2f7_c.jpg

Those pictures are a sight for sore eyes.

a bit...? LOL!

Read the last 2 or 3 pages and decide for yourself. From my perspective I see people are saying - look the lake is full, and their analysis ends there. What they don't see is that the new water treatment plant can drain Hefner dry in 100 days.


261 days, assuming that the plant is putting out 100 million gallons per day and it's being used somewhere, and assuming zero water enters the lake. Neither of these things will happen.

As a point of reference, with only the water that went over the dam at Overholser this weekend, Lake Hefner could be filled by a third.

Saw a forecast that is predicting thunderstorms in NW Oklahoma. Hopefully Canton will get some relief.

261 days, assuming that the plant is putting out 100 million gallons per day and it's being used somewhere, and assuming zero water enters the lake. Neither of these things will happen.

As a point of reference, with only the water that went over the dam at Overholser this weekend, Lake Hefner could be filled by a third.

Are you calculating the entire volume of Lake Hefner?

261 days, assuming that the plant is putting out 100 million gallons per day and it's being used somewhere, and assuming zero water enters the lake. Neither of these things will happen.

As a point of reference, with only the water that went over the dam at Overholser this weekend, Lake Hefner could be filled by a third.

Too bad they couldn't shoot that excess water up to Canton.

Too bad they couldn't shoot that excess water up to Canton.

That is EXACTLY what I thought when I read the dam comment. =)
Yet, I think the gravity of the situation might require pumps and pipelines of some sort rather than shooting.
Or even chuting . . . or swaling.
Perhaps a complex system of aqueducts?

Nothing is more reassuring than basing future water usage on the results of record setting rainfall. Average water demand should always be measured against above average rainfall. That strategy can't miss.

Well . . . That . . . or building pyramids next to the Nile . . . or movable Anti-Tornado shelters on the plains . . .
Pet Lawns: An Anathema to Human Nature. Especially in August. In Oklahoma. In a Period of (insert cause) GlobalWarming/drought

Saw a forecast that is predicting thunderstorms in NW Oklahoma. Hopefully Canton will get some relief.

Looks like Canton lake is gonna get some heavy rains soon. Hopefully this will calm everyone down and help get the lake back to normal levels. It is and has been pouring just nw of Canton for quite some time and the lake should be in line for some heavy runoff. Happy Days are here again!!!

Looks like Canton lake is gonna get some heavy rains soon. Hopefully this will calm everyone down and help get the lake back to normal levels. It is and has been pouring just nw of Canton for quite some time and the lake should be in line for some heavy runoff. Happy Days are here again!!!

OMG, don't say that. Kerry will have a stroke. LOL

Are you calculating the entire volume of Lake Hefner?

Yep, or at least what the volume was this afternoon.

80something thousand acre feet.

Looks like Canton lake is gonna get some heavy rains soon. Hopefully this will calm everyone down and help get the lake back to normal levels. It is and has been pouring just nw of Canton for quite some time and the lake should be in line for some heavy runoff. Happy Days are here again!!!

You really need to add this to your bookmarks:

Mesonet | Rainfall Since Midnight (http://www.mesonet.org/index.php/weather/map/rainfall_since_midnight/rainfall)

The rain in NW Oklahoma is doing nothing compared to the general 6-10" drowning rain that OKC got. You've got to be the most naive poster I've seen on this website...either that or you're completely sarcastic.

You really need to add this to your bookmarks:

Mesonet | Rainfall Since Midnight (http://www.mesonet.org/index.php/weather/map/rainfall_since_midnight/rainfall)

The rain in NW Oklahoma is doing nothing compared to the general 6-10" drowning rain that OKC got. You've got to be the most naive poster I've seen on this website...either that or you're completely sarcastic.

And even a better map:

Mesonet | 30-day Rainfall Accumulation (http://www.mesonet.org/index.php/weather/map/30_day_rainfall_accumulation/rainfall)

Shows how little has fallen in Canton's catchment area.

And even a better map:

Mesonet | 30-day Rainfall Accumulation (http://www.mesonet.org/index.php/weather/map/30_day_rainfall_accumulation/rainfall)

Shows how little has fallen in Canton's catchment area.

Looks like canton will be full by morning so I guess we can shut this thread down till next year.

Apparently OKCRT is a troll....

Putting on the ol' ignore list!

Yep, or at least what the volume was this afternoon.

80something thousand acre feet.

Won't work. You cannot drain Hefner dry. OKC doesn't have the engineering to do it. According to Slaughter, you need water at 40,000 acre ft. Using your numbers with Slaughter's bottom, you would have about 130 days if you use 100 million gal/day It's probably more like 25 million gal/day.

On average, disappearance from Hefner (use + evaporation) is about 1,000 acre-feet a week. If you cannot go below 40,000 in Hefner, you have about 40 weeks of usable water.

From a NEWSOK article in 2011:

Water treatment plant is expanded for growing Oklahoma City | News OK (http://newsok.com/water-treatment-plant-is-expanded-for-growing-oklahoma-city/article/3605613)


The project started this year, and the plant will be able to pump out 100 million gallons of clean water per day when it's finished in 2013, plant manager Doug Holmes said. The current capacity is 75 million gallons.

...

Increased demand for water during the hottest and driest part of the summer meant Oklahoma City's three water plants ran “pretty close” to full capacity, city utilities spokeswoman Debbie Ragan said.

It doesn't define 'pretty close' but if the capacity was 75 million per day I would put 'pretty close' north of 50 million. Or someone at public works just wasted a bunch of money.

in Hefner, you have about 40 weeks of usable water.

261 days, 280 days, whatever it takes....

From a NEWSOK article in 2011:

Water treatment plant is expanded for growing Oklahoma City | News OK (http://newsok.com/water-treatment-plant-is-expanded-for-growing-oklahoma-city/article/3605613)



It doesn't define 'pretty close' but if the capacity was 75 million per day I would put 'pretty close' north of 50 million. Or someone at public works just wasted a bunch of money.

Fortunately for everyone, the "hottest and driest part of the summer" does not last year 'round.

Fortunately for everyone, the "hottest and driest part of the summer" does not last year 'round.

Yea, my concern isn't so much that the lake can't support a single year - it is that the City is setting up a situation where it takes above average rainfall to support normal water demand. Once that happens there is a real problem because the in-flow can never keep up with the out-flow over time. This is a real problem in the west where lakes like Mead and Powell will never be full again, and will eventually dry up completely. And in the case of those two lakes it is double problem because they also produce a massive amount of electricity.

Yea, my concern isn't so much that the lake can't support a single year - it is that the City is setting up a situation where it takes above average rainfall to support normal water demand. Once that happens there is a real problem because the in-flow can never keep up with the out-flow over time. This is a real problem in the west where lakes like Mead and Powell will never be full again, and will eventually dry up completely. And in the case of those two lakes it is double problem because they also produce a massive amount of electricity.

Fair enough, but in the case of Hefner being dry, this was the result of an extended drought. Normal precipitation levels would have re-plenished it, and fairly rapidly. OKC is a long way from having demand outstrip supply, although having Lake Canton as a reserve looks less and less appealing.

An interesting read: http://pubs.usgs.gov/wri/wri964304/pdf/wri96-4304.pdf

OKC is a long way from having demand outstrip supply

Here is the problem I have with that statement - OKC has been under watering restrictions for several years which to me means that demand does outstrip supply. Now you can say, well that is because we have been in a multi-year drought, and that is probably correct but the questions is - is that the new normal? A second question is, was the data used to establish 'normal' flow done in years that were unusually wet, thus giving the illusion that more water is available than actually exists (this was the case with Lake Mead and Lake Powell)? The study you linked to was created in 1996 and one of the impetuses for it was the noticeable reduced stream flow. Notice that a reduction in stream flow was NOT a result of decreased rainfall in the basin.


Moving averages, trend tests, and comparisons of median
and average flows for an early period (ending in 1971) with
those for the recent period (1978-1994) show that the total
annual volume of flow and the magnitudes of instantaneous
peak discharges measured at most gaging stations in the Beaver-
North Canadian River basin have decreased in recent years.
These changes are most pronounced in the headwaters upstream
from Woodward, but also are evident at Woodward and near
Seiling, which represents the inflow to Canton Lake. Precipitation
records for the panhandle, however, show no corresponding
changes.

Annual volume of flow has declined at most gaging stations
in the basin. Changes in the discharge of the Beaver River
through 1986 have been documented (Wahl and Wahl, 1988).
The average annual discharge of the river near Guymon
reported in 1960 for 23 years of record (water years 1938-1960)
was 23,300 acre-feet. The 10-year moving average was only
500 acre-feet by 1993. In this study, the decrease near Guymon
between the early period and the recent period was about 18,000
acre-feet and represented 91 percent of the average flow for the
early period. Even larger decreases were found in the annual
flow volumes between the early and recent periods at Beaver
(-68,000 acre-feet), at Woodward (-72,000 acre-feet), and near
Seiling (-63,000 acre-feet).

I can only guess that since 1996 things have not improved.

and now we have had the wettest May on record ... and OKC has NOT been on watering restrictions forever

and now we have had the wettest May on record ... and OKC has NOT been on watering restrictions forever

1) I didn't say forever, I said "several years".
2) Great, there is enough water during the wettest May on record. No surprise there. What about all the other May's, or do you expect record rainfall every May?

When the baseline was being established how do we know where that baseline period falls within the historical range (which is different from the recorded historical range).

261 days, 280 days, whatever it takes....

Your number used 100 million gallons of use per day, mine uses 25 million gallons of use per day. If you are right, and I am wrong, your number would be more like 130 days.

1) I didn't say forever, I said "several years".
2) Great, there is enough water during the wettest May on record. No surprise there. What about all the other May's, or do you expect record rainfall every May?

When the baseline was being established how do we know where that baseline period falls within the historical range (which is different from the recorded historical range).

I don't ever remember OKC being on water rationing in May.

I don't ever remember OKC being on water rationing in May.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I think OKC was on Stage 1 watering restrictions all last month - the same month OKC had record rainfall. What does it say when there are water restrictions during record rainfall?

Your number used 100 million gallons of use per day, mine uses 25 million gallons of use per day. If you are right, and I am wrong, your number would be more like 130 days.

My numbers were in response to JTF's assertion about the capability of draining Hefner dry with the new plant treating water at full capacity.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I think OKC was on Stage 1 watering restrictions all last month - the same month OKC had record rainfall. What does it say when there are water restrictions during record rainfall?

It says that the US Drought Monitor still had us in some stage of drought.

Regional Drought Monitor: South (http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/DM_south.htm)

As for the continual rationing, I believe this is a function of OKC's water treatment being capable of meeting peak demand and the infrastructure being capable of effectively delivering that water. The completion of the Hefner Plant should aid in that endeavor.

However, availability of water to be treated and delivered, is not an issue.

This is a recent publication by the Oklahoma Water Resources Board.

http://www.owrb.ok.gov/supply/ocwp/pdf_ocwp/WaterPlanUpdate/draftreports/OCWP%20Executive%20Rpt%20FINAL.pdf

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I think OKC was on Stage 1 watering restrictions all last month - the same month OKC had record rainfall. What does it say when there are water restrictions during record rainfall?

OKC WUT and ciy council put okc on permanent water restrictions stage 1 as a conservation policy out of civic responsibility not out of water shortage ..

1) I didn't say forever, I said "several years".
2) Great, there is enough water during the wettest May on record. No surprise there. What about all the other May's, or do you expect record rainfall every May?

When the baseline was being established how do we know where that baseline period falls within the historical range (which is different from the recorded historical range).

several months is more like it not several years

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I think OKC was on Stage 1 watering restrictions all last month - the same month OKC had record rainfall. What does it say when there are water restrictions during record rainfall?

After the May 20 tornado, there was the issue of losing power at the Draper facility, in turn there was low pressure and water rationing was requested for a few days.

just got a "mailer" from the City of OKC. If I am interpreting the chart correctly we (OKC/surrounding communities) are now on "permanent" water conservation Stage 1 (odd/even watering schedule). Stage 1 calls for odd/even watering when the combined lake capacity is normal level ("always in effect" is on the chart). It progresses to a level 5 (ban and all outdoor watering and vehicle washing)when combined lake capacity is 35% or less. The chart is on this web site: Use OKC's Water Wisely. Water schedules are in effect. (http://squeezeeverydrop.com/). Absolutely don't have a problem with what they have laid out.