I know it is hard for some to believe, but we are no longer talking about concessions and businesses in Canton, as you say, only some in OKC care anyway.

I am talking about the coming problems for those totally dependent on Hefner water. The illusion is water is again plentiful for OKC, and it is for most, but for some, the danger is as real today as it was a few weeks ago.I've been silent for this entire thread. But Law, I would have taken this comment as sincere a few weeks ago. But as you have degenerated from good posts to simply jumping in every few posts with some rude or condescending remark I have real trouble taking you seriously anymore. You have lost all credibility. I now agree with the posts a few posts ago that you really need to just go away. I am one of those in the area served by lake Hefner. I am very concerned. I have cut my usage to inside only and watch how we use that. But with your attitude lately (other than this one post) you are no longer adding anything worthwhile.

My comments are sincere. I appreciate your cutting usage, I truly hope it helps you. Most of my posts lately have only been about your problems that might occur, answered questions about lake levels, etc. If you shoot the messenger who will sound the warning? Why does it offend you so much when I say you are in danger? You don't have to read my posts. You can simply skip them.

What I say has nothing to do with any local businesses or the fish. Since you cannot see my face, or know my heart, I am telling you the honest truth, no love of OKC or hate of OKC.

These are facts. Canton Lake is at 1602.1 There are some storms near here, hopefully that will help. This summer, especially if we have many 100+ days, Canton Lake will loose at least 5 ft to evaporation. That will drop the Canton Lake level to 1597. OKC storage ends at 1596.5. If you draw .5 ft, you will not receive any water.

Well I know canton lake did get some rain today! That is fact!

If I had the power I would set up a huge storm right over canton for 40 days and 40 nights. Maybe then some people would shut up.

appreciate your cutting usage, I truly hope it helps you. Most of my posts lately have only been about your problems that might occur

The thing that is getting to most of us, is not only that you dont move on - but the constant need to lecture US on what we should do with OUR water. Its unfortunate about Canton lake, but its a man made lake that was created for drinking water and the city has owned the rights to it for decades.

Its quite literally the same as selling your mineral rights then being mad (and posting almost 1000 times about how pissed you are) when they finally decide to drill on your property.

You cant have your cake and eat it too.

The thing that is getting to most of us, is not only that you dont move on - but the constant need to lecture US on what we should do with OUR water. Its unfortunate about Canton lake, but its a man made lake that was created for drinking water and the city has owned the rights to it for decades.

Its quite literally the same as selling your mineral rights then being mad (and posting almost 1000 times about how pissed you are) when they finally decide to drill on your property.

You cant have your cake and eat it too.

Only since the 90's, and you don't own the water, you lease the storage, and we didn't sell the rights.

Only since the 90's, and you don't own the water, you lease the storage, and we didn't sell the rights.

over 20 years ago...

you need a hobby or some friends. maybe you can visit your water at hefner, eufuala or kerr and just cry it all out so you can move on.

We didn't sell the rights.

Right now, Texas is saying we need drinking water, and OK is saying no. What is the difference? Canton, OKC...OKC, Dallas? They have more people in need than OKC.

Im kinda bored and its raining here. Im going to go water my yard. See you guys later.

Right now, Texas is saying we need drinking water, and OK is saying no. What is the difference? Canton, OKC...OKC, Dallas? They have more people in need than OKC.


OKC owns Canton water. Texas doesn't own Ok. water. OKC just took what was theirs to begin with so why all the bellyaching? Canton people had to know the day was coming when OKC would pull the plug and make the drain.

Besides,who cares what the hell Texas wants? That state can dry up and blow away for all I care. I can't stand texas and I would't pizz in a bottle and give it to them if they were on hand and knee.

It really doesn't change anything, except for you.

OKC does not own water. They own storage. I'm only warning you. OKC has pulled the plug it's gone. You have what you can get. There is nothing left to give you. I read my recent posts, except for the spat with mkjeeves, I have tried to be only short responses, factual and unemotional.

"Besides,who cares what the hell Texas wants? That state can dry up and blow away for all I care. I can't stand texas and I would't pizz in a bottle and give it to them if they were on hand and knee."

LOL! That's kinda my impression of how you feel about western OK.

Going to put down a few hundred gallons of canton yard juice. Just what the lawn doctor ordered.

3767

Good for you! It's a race to the bottom of both lakes. Use Hefner/Overholser asap, Canton will evaporate, doesn't change anything for us, only for you. No offense intended.

Good for you! It's a race to the bottom of both lakes. Use Hefner/Overholser asap, Canton will evaporate, doesn't change anything for us, only for you. No offense intended.

Nah,OKC has all that SE Ok. water we can fall back on. Don't think for a second that OKCs life depends on Canton Lake to survive. That pipeline will be built and OKC will have all the water it will ever need. Texas can pound sand and look somewhere else for the water they will need. Dallas is the city that has a water problem,not OKC.

I just wanted to send you a picture so you didnt forget what it looks like.

Nah,OKC has all that SE Ok. water we can fall back on. Don't think for a second that OKCs life depends on Canton Lake to survive. That pipeline will be built and OKC will have all the water it will ever need. Texas can pound sand and look somewhere else for the water they will need. Dallas is the city that has a water problem,not OKC.

Kinda short sighted. There is no pipeline today, nor have they started it. Those people dependent on Hefner are stuck. Sardis people are not any happier than we are. Why do you think OKC deserves all the water that falls on OK?

Who's abrasive now? LOL!

I just wanted to send you a picture so you didnt forget what it looks like.

We have an equally rude photo that I would not post. Not nice.

I tend not to focus on labels.

:)

BTW...post 248, law talks about having a husband. Not that I think anyone much cares at this point but the person shared that tidbit as if...

I'm sorry I made myself relive part of this thread.

BTW...post 248, law talks about having a husband. Not that I think anyone much cares at this point but the person shared that tidbit as if...

I'm sorry I made myself relive part of this thread.

Are you stalking me?

Seems like you are stalking OKC citizens with your broken record. Got anything besides that to offer?

alright... i think everyone needs to back away from their keyboards and take a breath. there's no need to get personal. there's no need to taunt each other. let's stick to topic. -M

I know that there are those who would debate the veracity of prophecy especially on an online forum . . .
Yet the fact remains that drinkable water belongs to native people by treaty.

Here is a plagiarised history link to prove it:
American Literature, Black Elk Speaks Research Papers (http://www.papermasters.com/black-elk-speaks.html)

I'm not dissin' "law" . . . nor blowing smoke signals out of my hindquarters . . .
I am simply attempting to promote and support a cosmic shift in consciousness.
About water rights and wrongs.

(edited to add: sorry, mmm. apparently crossed posts simultaneously. =)

The point is law made it clear she is a woman and she did that early on in the thread. Now I'm a bad people because I corrected someone who got that wrong in later posts. My bad.

I was rereading the thread for another reason though. It was to find the snark in your posts you just claimed isn't there. It doesn't take long to find those either, they come up pretty quick. 240 is a good example. But I don't care anymore.

The point is law made it clear she is a woman and she did that early on in the thread. Now I'm a bad people because I corrected someone who got that wrong in later posts. My bad.

I was rereading the thread for another reason though. It was to find the snark in your posts you just claimed isn't there. It doesn't take long to find those either, they come up pretty quick. 240 is a good example. But I don't care anymore.

"I'm a bad people . . ."
what an interesting turn of phrase . . .
now back to our regularly scheduled programming . . .

Water: Don't Waste It. OK?

I always hated "my bad". I apologize to myself for having used that just now.

The Cheyenne Arapaho tribes do not seem very interested in their Riparian rights at the present time, no doubt they have not given up those rights, and if the tribes in the SE prevail, they will reconsider their position. Once the precedent is set, OKC may not be able to draw water until they negotiate a contract new with the CA tribe.

I doubt the tribes in the SE are going to get their way. If you care, ask me why.

I doubt the tribes in the SE are going to get their way. If you care, ask me why.

Sorry, I've been busy this evening. Of course, I'm interested in your evaluation of their legal case.

The tribes' legal argument is centered around the Winters doctrine. That's a turn of the century case which awarded a tribe the amount of water it would take to irrigate all of the irrigable parts of their land. Three reasons that's a losing argument today: 1) the water needed to irrigate the irrigable portions of tribal lands falls out of the sky--no need to access storage rights, 2) tribes in SE by and large for the past 100 years haven't used their land for agriculture; 3) we don't have reservations in Oklahoma, only former reservations.

Of course there's a 4th reason too--that you don't get to wait 150+ years and only THEN assert you have rights to certain specific water that you've never claimed before only after someone else paid for it to be stored.

Even the tribes are in disarray over the issue of ownership, whereas the Choctaw and Chickasaw are making a claim, the Caddoan tribe is claiming indigenous rights, as being the original owners, therefore over riding any transplanted tribes rights to the water.

There is no such thing as indigenous water rights in U.S. law. The furthest extent is the Winters case, which only applies to peoples settled onto reservations. On the other hand, there has long been the concept of acquisition of land by conquest. Whether we committed crimes in the past and were somehow unfair, we went to war with the indigenous peoples who previously inhabited this land or otherwise bargained with them for them to give up their indigenous claims. Was it fair? Nope. Is life fair? Nope.

And let's do some navel gazing.. what does aboriginal even mean? I mean it's established that the Indian peoples of North and South America likely migrated here across the Bering Straits or otherwise from Asia, so are they really aboriginal? Did they find SE Oklahoma before the Vikings? Does the first people to find a piece of land get forever-dibs? Empires rise and fall. Indigenous peoples have relocated or been forced to relocate or have been exterminated many times. Even the Caddo were run out of their land by the Osage. At some point, the sovereign actually able to exercise control over a resource should be able to do so. In other words, might makes right. At least it does if the offended sovereign waits 200+ years to register a complaint.

My understanding is the Cheyenne Arapaho would be claiming outright ownership of at least a portion of the water. They still have tribal grounds adjoining the Corps property. Ft Cantonment is on tribal grounds adjoining the lake itself, so they have shoreline. While they are not doing anything legally now, that may change depending on other lawsuits and the political situation inside the tribe. I believe the Choctaws and Chickasaws are in negotiations in their suit, not just the cost of the water, but control of the water. Water law is a very complex issue in Oklahoma. I believe there will be many very expensive lawsuits in the future, and it will take many years to decide those cases. I would never attempt to predict the decision of a federal judge.

I would never attempt to predict the decision of a federal judge.

Especially when what Dallas is saying is that they own 1/4 of the water in the river basin, but can only draw their 1/4 by crossing state lines even though they have access to water from the river basin without crossing state lines.

I would also never attempt to discern the true motives of any of the tribes/business entities involved in the legal battles.

ETA: Midtowner's got it right. It's an uphill legal battle for anyone opposing OKC on this particular issue. Politics, now ... that may muddy the waters considerably.

Can tell from all the Alfred E Newman what me worry about Canton comments that people with a conscience feel bad about what OKC did to Canton. Don't fret, not talking about you Midtown. You'll all feel better with an apology to our fellow Okies in NW Ok, and an admission that the deed done not for need but esthetics for a movie shoot and pretty location shots during the NBA finals. The Spirit of Canton Lake no doubt tore Westbrook's meniscus.
Thank God the tribes have raparian rights long predating statehood, and now have the money to fight yet another resource grab, this time in the Kiamichi Watershed. For the sake of SE Ok pray for their success. It'll be a tragedy if the greedy hicks in OKC get their hands on Sardis.

Can tell from all the Alfred E Newman what me worry about Canton comments that people with a conscience feel bad about what OKC did to Canton. Don't fret, not talking about you Midtown. You'll all feel better with an apology to our fellow Okies in NW Ok, and an admission that the deed done not for need but esthetics for a movie shoot and pretty location shots during the NBA finals. The Spirit of Canton Lake no doubt tore Westbrook's meniscus.
Thank God the tribes have raparian rights long predating statehood, and now have the money to fight yet another resource grab, this time in the Kiamichi Watershed. For the sake of SE Ok pray for their success. It'll be a tragedy if the greedy hicks in OKC get their hands on Sardis.

Not to be too harsh, but Edgar, come back when you can vote.....

Especially when what Dallas is saying is that they own 1/4 of the water in the river basin, but can only draw their 1/4 by crossing state lines even though they have access to water from the river basin without crossing state lines.

I would also never attempt to discern the true motives of any of the tribes/business entities involved in the legal battles.

ETA: Midtowner's got it right. It's an uphill legal battle for anyone opposing OKC on this particular issue. Politics, now ... that may muddy the waters considerably.

Dallas wants Oklahoma water. The water in the Red has a high saline content. They want the excess water flowing into the Red from Oklahoma above a certain water point before it meets the Red River. At least that is what they wanted a few years back.

Can tell from all the Alfred E Newman what me worry about Canton comments that people with a conscience feel bad about what OKC did to Canton. Don't fret, not talking about you Midtown. You'll all feel better with an apology to our fellow Okies in NW Ok, and an admission that the deed done not for need but esthetics for a movie shoot and pretty location shots during the NBA finals. The Spirit of Canton Lake no doubt tore Westbrook's meniscus.
Thank God the tribes have raparian rights long predating statehood, and now have the money to fight yet another resource grab, this time in the Kiamichi Watershed. For the sake of SE Ok pray for their success. It'll be a tragedy if the greedy hicks in OKC get their hands on Sardis.

So you would prefer that the greedy hicks in Texas take your water instead? Because that is what will happen if the tribes win. And, if Dallas starts taking our water, it'll make OKC's water policies look like child's play.... count on that.

There is a serious case of prejection going on when the hicks in OKC accuse the tribes of only being in the fight for the money. Natives have a reverance for the Creator's blessing and don't view it as an asset to exploit for profit. The Kiamichi Watershed belongs to the people of SE Ok. They're not holding it for when OKC residents need to water 63rd St in August. OKC provoked this court case with their stong arm good ole boy network tactic, a complicit OWRB, and never returning the tribes phone calls on the issue. Kick dirt in their faces one more time. Pray for their success.

Besides,who cares what the hell Texas wants? That state can dry up and blow away for all I care. I can't stand texas and I would't pizz in a bottle and give it to them if they were on hand and knee.

After giving it some consideration - I would.

Natives have a reverance for the Creator's blessing and don't view it as an asset to exploit for profit.

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/MI-BD315_TRIBE_G_20100511171226.jpg

Can tell from all the Alfred E Newman what me worry about Canton comments that people with a conscience feel bad about what OKC did to Canton. Don't fret, not talking about you Midtown. You'll all feel better with an apology to our fellow Okies in NW Ok, and an admission that the deed done not for need but esthetics for a movie shoot and pretty location shots during the NBA finals. The Spirit of Canton Lake no doubt tore Westbrook's meniscus.
Thank God the tribes have raparian rights long predating statehood, and now have the money to fight yet another resource grab, this time in the Kiamichi Watershed. For the sake of SE Ok pray for their success. It'll be a tragedy if the greedy hicks in OKC get their hands on Sardis.

It's riparian rights. And riparian rights don't mean because you have adjacent land you own all of the water. It simply means you can use the water for domestic purposes including things like drinking it in your household (not supplying drinking water to a metroplex) or irrigation up to 3 acres without a permit. All of the water in Oklahoma is subject to Oklahoma and federal law, not the invented legal theories some of these tribes are coming up with.

Natives have a reverance for the Creator's blessing and don't view it as an asset to exploit for profit.

Bull****. The natives of old might have and the natives of today MIGHT, but the tribes of today are nothing more than specialized businesses with special government perks and rights.

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/MI-BD315_TRIBE_G_20100511171226.jpg

prove the point- in order for there to be a lake resort, there has to be a lake. A casino is exploiting people's greed and magical thinking.

It's riparian rights. And riparian rights don't mean because you have adjacent land you own all of the water. It simply means you can use the water for domestic purposes including things like drinking it in your household (not supplying drinking water to a metroplex) or irrigation up to 3 acres without a permit. All of the water in Oklahoma is subject to Oklahoma and federal law, not the invented legal theories some of these tribes are coming up with.

Right Midtown, the tribes have ferderal predating statehood on their side. Good for them and the people of SE Ok..

There is a serious case of prejection going on when the hicks in OKC accuse the tribes of only being in the fight for the money. Natives have a reverance for the Creator's blessing and don't view it as an asset to exploit for profit. The Kiamichi Watershed belongs to the people of SE Ok. They're not holding it for when OKC residents need to water 63rd St in August. OKC provoked this court case with their stong arm good ole boy network tactic, a complicit OWRB, and never returning the tribes phone calls on the issue. Kick dirt in their faces one more time. Pray for their success.

So you're fine with the tribes waiting until OKC had financed the Sardis project, a huge economic boon to SE Oklahoma and then trying to turn around and claim it belongs to the tribes? I hear what you're saying, but that only happens if the tribes are in it for the money. Where were the tribes when the lake was being built? The Kiamichi watershed belongs to all Oklahomans. SE Oklahoma residents depend on the oil and gas companies and tax paying citizens of OKC and Tulsa to fund most of their infrastructure. In return, OKC and Tulsa have to exploit rural assets to be able to survive. OKC's viability as a city requires Sardis and an additional pipeline within the next 50 years. Rural Oklahoma couldn't get by without OKC and Tulsa and vice versa.

As for returning phone calls, I don't return phone calls from folks with totally made up legal theories asking for absurd results, e.g., all of the water in 22 counties. Absurd.

prove the point- in order for there to be a lake resort, there has to be a lake. A casino is exploiting people's greed and magical thinking.

Casinos are nothing more than a poor mans tax.......just like the lottery. Not one dang spiritual thing about it.

Like I said Edgar, come back when the gills are dry.....

Right Midtown, the tribes have ferderal predating statehood on their side. Good for them and the people of SE Ok..

Ferderal predating statehood?

Even if you go back to the straight up common law version of what riparian means, it means reasonable use, i.e., not a use which harms others. Of course the rest of the water is the property of the people of Oklahoma and is appropriated by the OWRB.

Casinos are nothing more than a poor mans tax.......just like the lottery. Not one dang spiritual thing about it.

I'll bet that there are quite a few gambling addicts and casino bosses who would disagree with that statement . . . =)
(one of the latter looks a lot like Alec Baldwin in "The Cooler")

Is Hefner coming back up? Have not been up that way in a bit.

Is Hefner coming back up? Have not been up that way in a bit.

It's full.

It's full.

Hefner is full. Drove by today and I don't know if you could add another cup of water it's so full. Same with Overholser. I was told from a nearby resident that they were letting water out the other day and if they were doing that it must be full.

OKC lakes are looking good at this time.

Except Canton.

^ :doh:

"and an admission that the deed done not for need but esthetics for a movie shoot and pretty location shots during the NBA finals."

Are you a moron? If you aren't then provide a link that proves both of these situations to be true. Get a life.

Except Canton.
I doubt there are over 10 people in this state that gives a crap about Canton reservoir.

I doubt there are over 10 people in this state that gives a crap about Canton reservoir.

Go back to the very first post on this thread. Study the photographs. Now take a little trip forward to a future August . . . and wonder where the refill water will be coming from. At that point I think the estimated number of those who care about Canton reservoir will probably have to be adjusted upward. Especially in the vicinity of OKC.

So you're fine with the tribes waiting until OKC had financed the Sardis project, a huge economic boon to SE Oklahoma and then trying to turn around and claim it belongs to the tribes? I hear what you're saying, but that only happens if the tribes are in it for the money. Where were the tribes when the lake was being built? The Kiamichi watershed belongs to all Oklahomans. SE Oklahoma residents depend on the oil and gas companies and tax paying citizens of OKC and Tulsa to fund most of their infrastructure. In return, OKC and Tulsa have to exploit rural assets to be able to survive. OKC's viability as a city requires Sardis and an additional pipeline within the next 50 years. Rural Oklahoma couldn't get by without OKC and Tulsa and vice versa.

As for returning phone calls, I don't return phone calls from folks with totally made up legal theories asking for absurd results, e.g., all of the water in 22 counties. Absurd.

No one in OKC cared about Sardis back in the '80s, or had any intent about paying the bill owed to the feds. The tribes did indeed try to help pay the debt and were rebuffed because the greedy bullies in OKC want it all. read this and get some perspective, and compassion perhaps.Small-town residents and local tribes battle the big city for Oklahoma's Lake Sardis - Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/13/nation/la-na-oklahoma-lake-20111113)

Hefner is full. Drove by today and I don't know if you could add another cup of water it's so full. Same with Overholser. I was told from a nearby resident that they were letting water out the other day and if they were doing that it must be full.

OKC lakes are looking good at this time.


Except Canton.


^ :doh:



I think the jest is that OKC has 4 lakes holding drinking water - Hefner, Overholser, Drapper, AND Canton. Canton is plan B and it is almost dry, and we are coming up to a time of year when plan A doesn't work so well. I have no idea what plan C is (although I remember a Simpsons episode where plan C was to move the entire town of Springfield 5 miles down the road).