The suggestion that these said speed bumps reduce travel time or create a hazard is pure BS. My daughter lives in a W. Norman addition that has these speed tables and you can safely travel over them at the posted speed limit. These bumps/tables are designed to slow down speeders, not make traffic go slower then the posted speed limit.

Then I would strongly suggest that you talk to those who drive vehicles with heavy suspensions systems.
I have driven many miles in heavy trucks. I know how they handle, even on rough lease roads. I live on a corner lot were when working in my yard I have seen many different facials slowing down to negotiate several speed tables that are with in eye sight of my yard.
I have talked to the drivers of ambulances and fire trucks. The ambulance drive must slow down when they have an injured patient to prevent trauma and also so they don’t cause injuries to their personnel.
This I assure you is no BS issue for them. But if you don’t know any better, it might be.

This is not new. Norman has never viewed job creation as a central goal. The chamber is good for passing out biz cards. There's no really organized, focused group geared toward economic development.

The city's leadership has always been more blandly conservative than the community overall. Seriously doubt Rosenthal's focus on inclusiveness has hampered Norman's growth so much as the inertia and sense of "happy the way it is" sentiments that most Norman residents have. I left nearly two decades ago because city leadership was so backward.

Norman and Tulsa are interesting corollaries. Both communities have large numbers of residents who are happy with the way things are and desire no change. OKC was in a far different place; it was so bad that everyone got on board for change, and as change has occurred, people want even more.

Think about the OU t-shirt I see on sale in Norman: "Keep Norman Normal." While obviously a hamfisted retort to Austin, it explains a lot. (And by the way, growing up, Norman was just as weird if not weirder in some ways than Austin!).

To the extent that Rosenthal's has focus on inclusiveness it has hampered Norman's growth. Quality job growth sure doesn’t seem to be a priority for her or the city of Norman. By being distracted even by just one minute from making Norman economically stronger it hurts everybody, including the inclusiveness community.
It should be the number one goal and normal practice of city leaders to work hard for a diversity of quality jobs. This includes making Norman the most attractive location for new and relocating business.
City leadership has correctly heard the complaint that Norman is the most difficult place in Oklahoma to do business. It should be a priority to remove this fact / perception.

This is more about misguided priority’s that really don't work toward directly helping the vast majority of Norman residents.

To the extent that Rosenthal's has focus on inclusiveness it has hampered Norman's growth. Quality job growth sure doesn’t seem to be a priority for her or the city of Norman. By being distracted even by just one minute from making Norman economically stronger it hurts everybody, including the inclusiveness community.
It should be the number one goal and normal practice of city leaders to work hard for a diversity of quality jobs. This includes making Norman the most attractive location for new and relocating business.
City leadership has correctly heard the complaint that Norman is the most difficult place in Oklahoma to do business. It should be a priority to remove this fact / perception.

This is more about misguided priority’s that really don't work toward directly helping the vast majority of Norman residents.

You didn't address the central argument: This has never been a priority of Norman. Even the bankers, developers, "jaycees," etc. have never done more than pay lip service to this. Shouldn't the Chamber of Commerce be directing economic development efforts?

Not saying Rosenthal shouldn't do more, but she seems like a fine and responsive mayor to me. You're hanging this all on her neck when no one else has ever done anything of note to develop a sustainable job market there.

I'm also not understanding your hostility toward "inclusiveness." Companies and entrepreneurs today simply will not locate in communities that do not embrace diversity. For one thing, hostility toward diversity makes it difficult for them to attract key talent. Not sure why you view Norman being recognized as a diverse and welcoming community to people of all stripes is a hindrance to economic development; quite the opposite.

You didn't address the central argument: This has never been a priority of Norman. Even the bankers, developers, "jaycees," etc. have never done more than pay lip service to this. Shouldn't the Chamber of Commerce be directing economic development efforts?

Not saying Rosenthal shouldn't do more, but she seems like a fine and responsive mayor to me. You're hanging this all on her neck when no one else has ever done anything of note to develop a sustainable job market there.

I'm also not understanding your hostility toward "inclusiveness." Companies and entrepreneurs today simply will not locate in communities that do not embrace diversity. For one thing, hostility toward diversity makes it difficult for them to attract key talent. Not sure why you view Norman being recognized as a diverse and welcoming community to people of all stripes is a hindrance to economic development; quite the opposite.

I think it is interesting to note that the head of the Norman Chamber put his hat in the ring today for mayor next year. I wonder how well he'll handle the whole forged Switzer letter? Sounds like a swell guy to trust there!

I don't get his hostility towards the inclusive thing either. Norman is a very mixed town. Politically it is pretty well balanced...it was still favoring Romney by 55 to 45. However when you look at Norman, the core of Norman from I-35 on the west , Tecumseh on the North, East 24th to the West, and Highway 9 on the south is solidly democrat. Around that is very red. We could very well be looking at all these suburban transplants, that typically go to these other rim areas, are the more conservative bunch that don't agree with the mushy inclusive policies. Whereas the longer time residents of Norman and the college kids in the Central sections are more liberal side with the inclusive/melting pot ideals.

[QUOTE=venture79;599059]I think it is interesting to note that the head of the Norman Chamber put his hat in the ring today for mayor next year. I wonder how well he'll handle the whole forged Switzer letter? Sounds like a swell guy to trust there!

I wanted to correct the comment above. First, Mr. Sherman was the Chairman of the Board (a volunteer position) for the Norman Chamber three years ago. Neither myself as the President and CEO of the Norman Chamber, nor our current Chair of the Board or our Board members are running for mayor. Finally the Switzer letter you mention was a product of the State Chamber of Commerce, of which is a complete and separate entity.

Finally - economic development and creating a healthy vibrant community is the responsibility of many parties. Business leaders, community activists, the city government, the Chamber, non profits..etc etc. I believe our Chamber has and will continue to be a strong advocate for those things that make Norman a great community. We have been heavily involved in advocating for a high density ordinance, pursuing a quality of life package for Norman, pressing the passage of the Transportation Bond Issue, and a host of other issues to lengthy to name in this thread with a meeting I'm heading into.

I appreciate the great dialogue of OKC TALK

John Woods
President and CEO
Norman Chamber of Commerce

I wanted to correct the comment above. First, Mr. Sherman was the Chairman of the Board (a volunteer position) for the Norman Chamber three years ago. Neither myself as the President and CEO of the Norman Chamber, nor our current Chair of the Board or our Board members are running for mayor.

Thanks for clearing that up. The article in the Transcript made it sound like he was the current head.


Finally the Switzer letter you mention was a product of the State Chamber of Commerce, of which is a complete and separate entity.

So your organization didn't support the passage of SQ 766 then that will raise the taxes on residential property owners?

You didn't address the central argument: This has never been a priority of Norman. Even the bankers, developers, "jaycees," etc. have never done more than pay lip service to this. Shouldn't the Chamber of Commerce be directing economic development efforts?

Not saying Rosenthal shouldn't do more, but she seems like a fine and responsive mayor to me. You're hanging this all on her neck when no one else has ever done anything of note to develop a sustainable job market there.

I'm also not understanding your hostility toward "inclusiveness." Companies and entrepreneurs today simply will not locate in communities that do not embrace diversity. For one thing, hostility toward diversity makes it difficult for them to attract key talent. Not sure why you view Norman being recognized as a diverse and welcoming community to people of all stripes is a hindrance to economic development; quite the opposite.

It’s not hostility; it’s about wasting time on miss placed priority’s that won’t help 90% of the population in any meaningful way. The city should be prioritizing what helps everybody and that’s good jobs that create prosperity and a better community for all and not just a small group.

Whatever is in the past is in the past and it does very little good to look back other than to see that we don’t keep making the same mistakes over and over.


This is a bottom line issue. Prosperity cures many problems!

Prosperity cures many problems!

aye, but not all. Even a well to do person and his family can be subjected to ugly and distasteful discrimination by folks who insist that lemming like adherence to particular perspectives are the one true way to see certain matters.

aye, but not all. Even a well to do person and his family can be subjected to ugly and distasteful discrimination by folks who insist that lemming like adherence to particular perspectives are the one true way to see certain matters.

No doubt that is true, in a very small number of cases.

But I would bet that for every instance that you speak of that creating 1000’s of new high wage jobs would solve millions of more problems.
This is what I am talking about…. Everybody has problems, but it’s wrong not to give full attention on what helps the vast majority. Great jobs give increased opportunity to all… They allow everyone to address many of their problems. Virtually all of the so called minorities are helped by increased opportunities, are they not?

Possibly, though perhaps 4 out of 5 teens/adults bullied to the point of suicide might disagree ... if only someone had thought them worth the time to ask.

Possibly, though perhaps 4 out of 5 teens/adults bullied to the point of suicide might disagree ... if only someone had thought them worth the time to ask.

And good jobs can and do help pay for counseling and for many other medical problems that help reduce suicide rates and other deaths.

Work and a good job is one of the best things to help low self-esteem.

Prosperity brings increased opportunities for donations that can help find cures and prevent deaths.

Norman's going downhill because its planning commission and city council are a dysfunctional mess. Having set through more of both meetings than I ever care to again, and watching discussion about not just issues I care about but everything going in front of them, it is really kind of scary some of the things I have noticed. Often times it seems like planning commissioners just ignore residents who come to speak. On one or two occasions I've seen one jackass even laughing and more or less being extremely rude to an older resident who was clearly nervous but trying to exercise her political right to speak about whatever it was she was there for. I've watched planning commissioners make googly eyes to lawyers for developers that they clearly knew and were 'empathing' messages to during deliberations. I have never, ever seen these types of things happen in OKC.

I don't even care to address city staff.

As for the city council... after watching many votes go down, I sometimes wonder if the east and west sides of town truly hate one another. Watching voting patterns on the horseshoe could leave one with the impression that one side is out to sabotage the other. I think perhaps though that the true story is that they are just of such different mindsets that they simply never agree on anything.

I don't see how a city ripe with such bureaucratic nonsense could ever be successful in anything. I think it explains a lot as to what has been going on recently around town.

If Norman has a ward system of city government, then maybe that hinders progress.

You know the reality is that Norman's city government isn't structured all that differently from OKC's... it's a ward based system with a figurehead mayor and a professional city planner doing most of the work. There are various commissions making recommendations up to the city council. I actually don't think the structure is the problem. I think it's a people problem. I think city staff are just too 'small town,' and I think most of the elected officials are in over their heads. With respect to the latter I think that is because most of the folks serving have backgrounds in education, or small businesses, and so on... while in OKC and Tulsa you have former broadcast journalists, businessmen, medical professionals, and professional politicians serving. That can be both good and bad... and it is certainly a refreshing thing having 'normal' people involved in politics, but it can also be a big detriment when you are talking about needing to have some serious forward-thinking momentum present on the horseshoe. I mean at least OKC goes out and tries to employ people who have very good reputations among big and large cities for its planning staff... I am not sure that Norman has ever made that effort, or that they aren't simply drawing from a small-town focused pool. Norman's a much smaller town than OKC and I realize that, but at the same time I don't understand why they aren't trying to draw from suburban Dallas or suburban Denver planners instead of middle of nowheresville. So again I think this goes back to vision, a lack of one, and it having a big impact on Norman.

How could Norman go downhill when it never was uphill?

How could Norman go downhill when it never was uphill?Norman has long had many unique qualities that if properly exploited could increase the quality of life for virtually all of its residents.

How could Norman go downhill when it never was uphill?

Surely, you jest, like silly. The total number of housing unit construction permits issued in Norman for 2012 stood at 1010 (314 single family structures) as of the end of September. Aside from Oklahoma City's total, which is more than twice as big, this 1010 figure is well beyond every other jurisdiction in the metro area and is close to being as big as Tulsa's. (If you want to get picky over how the numbers break down, Edmond has 435 for single family.) Compare Norman's figure to another major college town, Stillwater, which is only 65.

Norman has long had many unique qualities that if properly exploited could increase the quality of life for virtually all of its residents.

Like how? The Fred Jones Jr. Museum of Art is sure fantastic.

i spend lot of time in Ft Collins, Colorado. Ft Collins reminds me alot of Norman, ( but with mountains) :) however, what they have done is essentially turned the downtown area into a little hub of shops, restaurants, and basically places to hang out. The main difference i see is that they have closed out traffic in the middle of downtown ( to allow folks to walk! ) What a concept!!!! and they encourage musicians and artists to hang out and dance, play etc for entertainment of the public. They have tablea outside and many places to sit, benches etc. and pets etc are welcomed to sit with their human parents. Consider its alot colder up there near wyoming and we have better weather overall. I think we should cionsider mimicking what they have done to turn their little city into a tourist destination! ps they have a University too similar to OU and population is similar to Norman. :)

It is an interesting concept to close Main Street and open it up to only pedestrian traffic, but I'm not sure there is any feasible option to redirect the 3 lanes of traffic around. At least not in a safe manner or one that doesn't require a lot of relocating of buildings.

This is probably blasphemy, but what if they closed some of the streets in and around Campus Corner?

It is an interesting concept to close Main Street and open it up to only pedestrian traffic, but I'm not sure there is any feasible option to redirect the 3 lanes of traffic around. At least not in a safe manner or one that doesn't require a lot of relocating of buildings.

Tulsa tried that, but it didn't work out.

Tulsa tried that, but it didn't work out.

Doesn't meant it won't work in another city. I've seen it in several and where its worked out pretty well. However, it is going to have to come down on a city by city basis. Just because something didn't work in Tulsa doesn't mean it wouldn't work in Norman. Tulsa is by far not a model city for anyone else. Each city is different and it has to be evaluated that way.

Pedestrian malls have been enormously successful in college towns. Iowa City, Ann Arbor, Boulder, Charlottesville, Madison, and as mentioned above, Fort Collins. Campus corner may be the best place to do it in Norman.

The pedestrian mall is not the magic bullet to improve Norman. Such concepts are largely passe and were envisioned in the Eighties. We've moved on from them. Campus Corner is fine with cars but Norman needs to create a more vibrant urban core. The problem is the city leadership still doesn't view Norman as a city.

WHY is Norman one of the only major university towns in the United States without hotels adjacent to the university?

WHY is there not more high-density, quality housing being constructed in the inner core?

Norman is S-L-O-W to change. But it is also a sleeping giant. It used to be the best city in the state for quality of life but it is lagging behind OKC and Tulsa now. Quality planning with an emphasis on rebuilding the city's core could make an immeasurable impact.

The city leadership (developers and bankers) have developed West Norman to the exclusion of everything else. They need to quit focusing on this (this area will develop regardless) and focus on what to do to transition the central core into a more dense, vibrant area. They have more to work with than 99% of Oklahoma towns and they are squandering it.

Is it really squandering if the majority of inner core folk actively resist significant changes, preferring their existing way of life and sense of community, and elect representatives who support their positions in that regard? Not saying there isn't room for growth and expansion in the interior, but I've met many who seem perfectly fine for new growth to occur elsewhere in the city.

I think you have to have a balance. Sure the Western part of Norman, especially NW, where it is just another worthless cookie cutter suburb development just makes Norman like any other burb. I really like Central Norman how it is now, but could definitely see more development near Downtown that would include more high density housing. However, I really like the feel of Central Norman and the community. Some people posting how they want Lindsey going to 4 lane through this area would just trash it and they show no regard for the people that actually live there. Driving through there again the other day, there is no way to 4 lane it anyway without removing a significant portion of people's yards, drive ways, and even some buildings...not to mention a ton of trees. Screw that.

If we turn the main Campus Corner (Asp) streets into a pedestrian mall it’s going to require a very expensive parking solution. We need to think about who would be paying for a parking garage and where it would be located? It makes a pedestrian mall not very likely.

The pedestrian mall is not the magic bullet to improve Norman. Such concepts are largely passe and were envisioned in the Eighties. We've moved on from them. Campus Corner is fine with cars but Norman needs to create a more vibrant urban core. The problem is the city leadership still doesn't view Norman as a city.

WHY is Norman one of the only major university towns in the United States without hotels adjacent to the university?

WHY is there not more high-density, quality housing being constructed in the inner core?

Norman is S-L-O-W to change. But it is also a sleeping giant. It used to be the best city in the state for quality of life but it is lagging behind OKC and Tulsa now. Quality planning with an emphasis on rebuilding the city's core could make an immeasurable impact.

The city leadership (developers and bankers) have developed West Norman to the exclusion of everything else. They need to quit focusing on this (this area will develop regardless) and focus on what to do to transition the central core into a more dense, vibrant area. They have more to work with than 99% of Oklahoma towns and they are squandering it.

I don’t think there is any doubt that the OU area could use a major hotel.
I believe that higher end condos that are not near the railroad tracks would do well.

I do believe that quality planning with an emphasis on rebuilding the city's core is needed.... but if this is to occur transportation needs to be modernized and in a very major way.

Simply put, it takes far too long to make your way in and out of this part of Norman on an everyday bases to make this area very attractive to major new development.

I think you have to have a balance. Sure the Western part of Norman, especially NW, where it is just another worthless cookie cutter suburb development just makes Norman like any other burb. I really like Central Norman how it is now, but could definitely see more development near Downtown that would include more high density housing. However, I really like the feel of Central Norman and the community. Some people posting how they want Lindsey going to 4 lane through this area would just trash it and they show no regard for the people that actually live there. Driving through there again the other day, there is no way to 4 lane it anyway without removing a significant portion of people's yards, drive ways, and even some buildings...not to mention a ton of trees. Screw that.

It’s so easy to say not to build a needed project, but we seldom see any practical alternatives from the detractors.



Taking the needed right-of-way from the north side of Lindsey so that it can be brought up to modern day standards is a very practical alternative. Our congestion is a quality of life issue that needs improvement

It’s so easy to say not to build a needed project, but we seldom see any practical alternatives from the detractors.

Taking the needed right-of-way from the north side of Lindsey so that it can be brought up to modern day standards is a very practical alternative. Our congestion is a quality of life issue that needs improvement

Is it really a quality of life issue when the people in that neighborhood don't want it done? I would think their wishes are more important that someone that lives 3 miles away.

Is it really a quality of life issue when the people in that neighborhood don't want it done? I would think their wishes are more important that someone that lives 3 miles away.

The wishes of a couple of dozen people should not trump the wishes of tens of thousands more people who work, live and visit this part of Norman on a regular bases.

As a University the congestion hinders OU’s growth and development and the redevelopment that’s needed in the nearby area.
The congestion directly impacts everybody’s safety.

If you don’t like this instead of just saying no why don’t you come forth with practical alternatives?

Is is often interesting to observe how the perspective of advocating development can shift amongst folk when it's neither their property, nor adjacent property, that would be altered.

The pedestrian mall is not the magic bullet to improve Norman. Such concepts are largely passe and were envisioned in the Eighties. We've moved on from them. Campus Corner is fine with cars but Norman needs to create a more vibrant urban core. The problem is the city leadership still doesn't view Norman as a city.

WHY is Norman one of the only major university towns in the United States without hotels adjacent to the university?

WHY is there not more high-density, quality housing being constructed in the inner core?

Norman is S-L-O-W to change. But it is also a sleeping giant. It used to be the best city in the state for quality of life but it is lagging behind OKC and Tulsa now. Quality planning with an emphasis on rebuilding the city's core could make an immeasurable impact.

The city leadership (developers and bankers) have developed West Norman to the exclusion of everything else. They need to quit focusing on this (this area will develop regardless) and focus on what to do to transition the central core into a more dense, vibrant area. They have more to work with than 99% of Oklahoma towns and they are squandering it.

I really like the idea of making Campus Corner a pedestrian walk. One of the times I enjoy Campus Corner most is on OU gamedays when everything is closed to traffic. It would be great to have an environment like that. I have spent some time in Charlottesville, VA, and that area is so nice (see photo). If you close off the roads, you have a lot of space for outdoor seating, and it draws people to the area. That said, I think it would be highly risky since Campus Corner is already a pretty great area. And, yes, parking would be an issue. In the long-run, though, I think there would be real benefits.

3075

Is is often interesting to observe how the perspective of advocating development can shift amongst folk when it's neither their property, nor adjacent property, that would be altered.

Isn't it though? Pathetic if you ask me.


The wishes of a couple of dozen people should not trump the wishes of tens of thousands more people who work, live and visit this part of Norman on a regular bases.

As a University the congestion hinders OU’s growth and development and the redevelopment that’s needed in the nearby area.
The congestion directly impacts everybody’s safety.

If you don’t like this instead of just saying no why don’t you come forth with practical alternatives?

Ahh...so that apartment complex in your wonderful little suburbia utopia shouldn't have listened to you and your ilk since the majority of Norman would likely be okay with it?

OU has plenty of access options. Hwy 9 provides relatively easy access to Campus. If people don't like the traffic on Lindsey, take Hwy 9 or Main Street. I do it every day and don't complain.

As far as providing alternatives, there is an ENTIRE thread on this subject that we covered before. I suggest you go back and read it.

Isn't it though? Pathetic if you ask me.



Ahh...so that apartment complex in your wonderful little suburbia utopia shouldn't have listened to you and your ilk since the majority of Norman would likely be okay with it?

OU has plenty of access options. Hwy 9 provides relatively easy access to Campus. If people don't like the traffic on Lindsey, take Hwy 9 or Main Street. I do it every day and don't complain.

As far as providing alternatives, there is an ENTIRE thread on this subject that we covered before. I suggest you go back and read it.

What thread is that? Please show me a link. THANKS

Is is often interesting to observe how the perspective of advocating development can shift amongst folk when it's neither their property, nor adjacent property, that would be altered.

What’s even more interesting is how city of Norman leadership is willing to continually put aside the interest of the overwhelming majority and reduce future opportunities for the community.

What’s even more interesting is how city of Norman leadership is willing to continually put aside the interest of the overwhelming majority and reduce future opportunities for the community.

but they do let us raise chickens in our back yards!!!!

but they do let us raise chickens in our back yards!!!!

LOL, but only 4

If we turn the main Campus Corner (Asp) streets into a pedestrian mall it’s going to require a very expensive parking solution. We need to think about who would be paying for a parking garage and where it would be located? It makes a pedestrian mall not very likely.

Correct. This is a bad idea all around and hopefully it gains no traction. Especially now that Norman actually has successfully recruited a retail / services / restaurant mix to Campus Corner that appears to be working. A great way to kill that momentum would be to remove on-street parking options.

What’s even more interesting is how city of Norman leadership is willing to continually put aside the interest of the overwhelming majority and reduce future opportunities for the community.

While I don't agree with every move they make, if you are that unhappy with Norman why build a $300-600k house there? Move to Edmond.

Is it really a quality of life issue when the people in that neighborhood don't want it done? I would think their wishes are more important that someone that lives 3 miles away.

This is ironic considering your posts in the West Norman thread. But yeah, I and a lot of folks completely agree with you.

Telling you right now though, the Council disagrees with your thought process. They aren't going to care what you think when some development gets proposed for your area. It's just all about traffic, dollars, and what city staff thinks.

The Campus Corner area is already highly walkable, but yeah I think it'd be great if it was even more walkable than it is now. They do close down Asp from time to time, mostly on game days and for the occasional food festival or whatever. The thing is, business owners in the area are very opposed to shutting those streets down to car traffic unless there's a giant infusion of people in the area for games or whatever. The reason why is the cars drive sales... a lot of people are able to walk to Campus Corner, but sufficiently large numbers do not, and the businesses could not take the hit. So to make this happen someone needs to seriously think about parking garages... but I imagine the moment someone throws out the idea of building a five story monolith in that neighborhood that the surrounding neighbors are going to protest it. But hey, that apparently doesn't matter so I guess it's just up to what the council thinks is best for all of us. :rolleyes:

Campus Corner is pretty dead for a whole month almost over X-mas break. And it can be very quiet over the summer months too, so it wouldn't make a whole lotta sense to make it all closed to cars, unless OU changes its semesters to quarters or something like that.

And back when they changed Asp from one way to two way, that was a big enough change that the business owners showed up at the city council meeting, Norman just doesn't work well when things are quickly changed.

Tulsa tried that, but it didn't work out.

Tulsa tried it for a few blocks that were ALL office buildings

While I don't agree with every move they make, if you are that unhappy with Norman why build a $300-600k house there? Move to Edmond.

Try to look at this in the big picture of life.
For me, none of this has ever been about my personal wealth…..It’s about a future that will likely occur after I am dead.

The point is.... this has been about making the Norman area and the state as prosperous as possible.
Improvements in our quality of life aid in this effort.

We need to make sure we are doing things that don’t limit our ability to be competitive with the entire world.
Improving OU and Norman makes us more competitive, but not very many top flight world researchers (that we will need to recruit) want to waste their time sitting in small city traffic congestion when it could so easily be made better.

We should be doing things with an eye toward building a city and state that’s attractive to future research and development and their high wage spin off jobs. We want to keep our intellectual capital here, rather than see a continuation of the Oklahoma brain drain.

Building up Norman in the right ways can benefit the entire state with increased opportunities. In my opinion Norman city’s leaders should be aggressively selling this thought process to our state leaders so they better fund OU and our area infrastructure.

The investment in MAP’s has done wonders for OKC that we can all see. We can make an investment in the entire state by planting the seeds that improve Norman and OU that would eventually dwarf the impact that MAPS has had.

I don’t have any personal experience in economic development but I did learn a lot from a relative of mine who was the lead person in the recruitment of Corporations such as JC Penney’s and Exxon along with others to the DFW area. I learned many years ago that we must invest in our self’s before we can expect outsiders to invest in us.

Try to look at this in the big picture of life.
For me, none of this has ever been about my personal wealth…..It’s about a future that will likely occur after I am dead.

The point is.... this has been about making the Norman area and the state as prosperous as possible.
Improvements in our quality of life aid in this effort.

We need to make sure we are doing things that don’t limit our ability to be competitive with the entire world.
Improving OU and Norman makes us more competitive, but not very many top flight world researchers (that we will need to recruit) want to waste their time sitting in small city traffic congestion when it could so easily be made better.

We should be doing things with an eye toward building a city and state that’s attractive to future research and development and their high wage spin off jobs. We want to keep our intellectual capital here, rather than see a continuation of the Oklahoma brain drain.

Building up Norman in the right ways can benefit the entire state with increased opportunities. In my opinion Norman city’s leaders should be aggressively selling this thought process to our state leaders so they better fund OU and our area infrastructure.

The investment in MAP’s has done wonders for OKC that we can all see. We can make an investment in the entire state by planting the seeds that improve Norman and OU that would eventually dwarf the impact that MAPS has had.

I don’t have any personal experience in economic development but I did learn a lot from a relative of mine who was the lead person in the recruitment of Corporations such as JC Penney’s and Exxon along with others to the DFW area. I learned many years ago that we must invest in our self’s before we can expect outsiders to invest in us.

I'm sorry but first of all, "top flight world researchers" don't pick where to live based on how traffic flows in sprawl corridors, and second of all, MAPS in OKC wasn't about widening roads either. You can't embrace the MAPS urbanist legacy and argue for widening roads in the same paragraph.

Lastly, your obsession with automobile sprawl is really absurd. Norman needs to get beyond that in order to get back on track for growth, because it can't compete in the sprawl category anyway - Moore is better positioned and more attractive for that now. Strategize a point that you can win on. Norman has a lot going on for that doesn't involve automobile sprawl, but it's all losing out to suburban interests right now.

We all agree that Norman needs to invest in itself. The problem is that you are at odds with most everyone on here who wants to focus on the inner neighborhoods that could make Norman unique and truly competitive.

I'm sorry but first of all, "top flight world researchers" don't pick where to live based on how traffic flows in sprawl corridors, and second of all, MAPS in OKC wasn't about widening roads either. You can't embrace the MAPS urbanist legacy and argue for widening roads in the same paragraph.

Lastly, your obsession with automobile sprawl is really absurd. Norman needs to get beyond that in order to get back on track for growth, because it can't compete in the sprawl category anyway - Moore is better positioned and more attractive for that now. Strategize a point that you can win on. Norman has a lot going on for that doesn't involve automobile sprawl, but it's all losing out to suburban interests right now.

We all agree that Norman needs to invest in itself. The problem is that you are at odds with most everyone on here who wants to focus on the inner neighborhoods that could make Norman unique and truly competitive.

Just like major business many do make relocation decisions’ based on the quality of life. You never know what those are. For some, they are sick of big city congestion and the time that it takes away from their lives. But even so, the improvements would help virtually everybody.

Norman's congestion derives from its sprawl and its existing suburban-minded refusal to invest in quality of life. I don't disagree that Norman needs MAPS-style downtown projects. A streetcar would be a huge hit, like Tacoma, WA. I think a ped mall is a great idea too.

Right now Norman is telling urban developers no, tolerating crap at UNP, and only investing in street projects on the edge that will bring more sprawl. Seriously misguided leadership, but it's a shame that a new downtown library got killed.

If we turn the main Campus Corner (Asp) streets into a pedestrian mall it’s going to require a very expensive parking solution. We need to think about who would be paying for a parking garage and where it would be located? It makes a pedestrian mall not very likely.
Well . . . They could drive to OKC, park easily, and ride the Heartland Flyer back to Norman.
That, or something involving taxis, pedicabs, horse-drawn carriages, bicycles or a canal.

All kidding aside: Excellent, pragmatic, observation. Yet, Norman is a GREAT college town. And this from someone who was raised in Boulder, CO. Visited Ft. Collins MANY times back in the day and is completely and utterly amazed at what the OKC/Bricktown development folks have done over the most recent two or three decades since I deserted my old hometown . . .

It's "greatness" needs to be exploited--beyond the obvious sports.

Well . . . They could drive to OKC, park easily, and ride the Heartland Flyer back to Norman.
That, or something involving taxis, pedicabs, horse-drawn carriages, bicycles or a canal.

All kidding aside: Excellent, pragmatic, observation. Yet, Norman is a GREAT college town. And this from someone who was raised in Boulder, CO. Visited Ft. Collins MANY times back in the day and is completely and utterly amazed at what the OKC/Bricktown development folks have done over the most recent two or three decaded since I deserted my old hometown . . .

It's "greatness" needs to be exploited--beyond the obvious sports.Hey man, I just hatched an idea. Someone should start a unicycle sharing program. That would be bomb.com shizzzy of the hizzy.. nizzle for drizzle.. awwww yeaaaah

Hey man, I just hatched an idea. Someone should start a unicycle sharing program. That would be bomb.com shizzzy of the hizzy.. nizzle for drizzle.. awwww yeaaaah

Never speak like that again. /slap

LOL

I dunno I can dig it, panda just keepin it off the chain

Maybe I am not sports minded enough. About the only time I notice any significant congestion inside Norman at all tends to be:

a. 90-120 minutes either side of an OU home fb game
b. 30-45 minutes either side of a LNC event of any type
c. Main St/Sooner Mall (so I'm told. I very rarely approach the mall and even more rarely from Main)
d. 4:45 - 5:45 evenings Robinson/12th NE area and Robinson/36th NW area.

All these I find rather easy to avoid in peak periods. By and large, the hours I'm out and about are pretty easy traveling around Norman, though if a road is going to be closed it would be nice to know that before I'm at the closed section. Advance notice signs are something we could definitely improve on down here.

Maybe I am not sports minded enough. About the only time I notice any significant congestion inside Norman at all tends to be:

a. 90-120 minutes either side of an OU home fb game
b. 30-45 minutes either side of a LNC event of any type
c. Main St/Sooner Mall (so I'm told. I very rarely approach the mall and even more rarely from Main)
d. 4:45 - 5:45 evenings Robinson/12th NE area and Robinson/36th NW area.

All these I find rather easy to avoid in peak periods. By and large, the hours I'm out and about are pretty easy traveling around Norman, though if a road is going to be closed it would be nice to know that before I'm at the closed section. Advance notice signs are something we could definitely improve on down here.

That is exactly what I see as well. Hwy 9 can get a bit busy during rush out and also I-35 at Lindsey/Hwy 9...but that is already going to be fixed.

For kicks I decided to go down Lindsey through Campus on a weekday afternoon and no issues at all. School was still in session and such. I don't see anything on a constant basis that warrants taking front yards away, tearing down houses, and causing massive reroutes for months.

Norman's congestion derives from its sprawl and its existing suburban-minded refusal to invest in quality of life. I don't disagree that Norman needs MAPS-style downtown projects. A streetcar would be a huge hit, like Tacoma, WA. I think a ped mall is a great idea too.

Right now Norman is telling urban developers no, tolerating crap at UNP, and only investing in street projects on the edge that will bring more sprawl. Seriously misguided leadership, but it's a shame that a new downtown library got killed.

I agree of some of your concerns, but Norman, by its location and land size, is a suburban city. Obviously, city leaders long ago decided to annex areas around core Norman, probably to promote economic development and increase its tax base. In the process, the city changed itself from a small town to a suburban community. People moved to those suburban areas and have demanded that the city spend tax dollars in those areas. The only way the city can change that is to de-annex those areas which will not happen.

As for the downtown library, I voted against it and am very happy the $50 million project was voted down. The project was just too expensive for what the city were getting. Furthermore, the space needed for libraries to function effectively will decline over time as more and more books are published digitally. If we would have built the library, we would have been paying 30 years for building that quickly was going to become a dinosaur.

Maybe I am not sports minded enough. About the only time I notice any significant congestion inside Norman at all tends to be:

a. 90-120 minutes either side of an OU home fb game
b. 30-45 minutes either side of a LNC event of any type
c. Main St/Sooner Mall (so I'm told. I very rarely approach the mall and even more rarely from Main)
.

All these I find rather easy to avoid in peak periods. By and large, the hours I'm out and about are pretty easy traveling around Norman, though if a road is going to be closed it would be nice to know that before I'm at the closed section. Advance notice signs are something we could definitely improve on down here.

In the run up to the city’s recent bond election for street improvements the stretch of Lindsey from OU to I-35 was called the most congested street in Oklahoma.

You and most others here can normally avoid the worst of the problem spots, but because many live, work, attend school, or visit this part of Norman it makes the problem spots virtually impossible to avoid at the times many folks need to travel.
When several times a day it take as long 20 to 30 minutes to make the approx. 2 mile drive from OU to I-35 on Lindsey…. there is a significant problem that needs a real solution. But nobody else has even discusses a serious workable alternative solution that I can recall. They just say don’t do it.

The largest areas of undeveloped land in central Norman are on the south side of campus. This and the areas along Highway 9 will more and more become major targets areas for the development of high wage jobs and research.
If the city, state, OU, and residents want OU and central Norman to grow and infill, then the transportation issue will need a solution. Not, we don’t need that, or don’t do it.

Highway 9 needs to be brought up to near interstate standards and 6 landed from Jenkins to the west with one dedicated lane for I-35 south, one for I-35 north and with another lane that would continue west then turn north and connect with 48th SW and 60TH SW.

Norman is the 3 largest city in Oklahoma…. It’s very likely to eventually grow well beyond the 200,000 mark. If we want in filled growth then it’s time to stop ignoring this eventuality and proactively plan for it. It will be far cheaper if we do.



High levels of prosperity are the surest path to achieving high end quality growth and in filled growth.
But we can’t get there without a high quality transportation system that does not waste people’s time.

In the run up to the city’s recent bond election for street improvements the stretch of Lindsey from OU to I-35 was called the most congested street in Oklahoma.

You and most others here can normally avoid the worst of the problem spots, but because many live, work, attend school, or visit this part of Norman it makes the problem spots virtually impossible to avoid at the times many folks need to travel.
When several times a day it take as long 20 to 30 minutes to make the approx. 2 mile drive from OU to I-35 on Lindsey…. there is a significant problem that needs a real solution. But nobody else has even discusses a serious workable alternative solution that I can recall. They just say don’t do it.

Well four lanes from Berry to I-35 will take care of a lot of the congestion around the businesses. From Berry to Campus it will have to come down to better timing the traffic lights for the flow of traffic. Now once you get to campus you have a few options. You can create a loop and One Way certain streets. You could also remove the cross walk stop lights on campus and put in pedestrian bridges. Obviously you'd have to restrict any large vehicle traffic down Lindsey, but that should be an issue.

It might also come down to a change in driving habits. There appears to be enough room between the road and sidewalks to four lane University all the way from Main Street to campus. Redirect most people that way, who are coming from the north, through Main to University instead.

This is almost like going to the WRWA from the South and East. If you are going east on 44 or west on 240 you typically are going to go up to Airport Road to Meridian. When in fact it is faster to get off on 59th and take that to Meridian. It is all about driving habits and moving people around.

Find me a few studies or articles that explain why a community like Norman can win the future by focusing on making it easier to get around by car and continuing to encourage sprawl development. Who is saying this other than angry Agenda 21 people who think preferences for urbanism are a UN conspiracy? (Hint: Joel Kotkin is the only editorialist I can think of who might come close.)

Which sprawling college towns are making big strides by widening roads? (Hint: I can only think of the Triangle of Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill, where research parks sprawl across two highway-laced counties and people have gotten so tired of retreating by car to their walkable home neighborhoods at the corners of the triangle that they just passed a $1.4 billion transit plan.)

Boulder and Ann Arbor have focused intensely on increasing bicycling and walking and now they're considered among the best places to live in the country.

Meanwhile, even the AUTO INDUSTRY knows most young people do not want to rely on cars. Our local Chambers of Commerce, economic developers, and major corporations know this too and are preparing for it. See Oklahoma City.

Why Young Americans Are Driving So Much Less Than Their Parents - Commute - The Atlantic Cities (http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2012/04/why-young-americans-are-driving-so-much-less-their-parents/1712/)

"A study by J.D. Power and Associates, most well-known for their quality rankings of cars, confirms what young people tell me: After analyzing hundreds of thousands of online conversations on everything from car blogs to Twitter and Facebook, the study found that teens and young people in their early twenties have increasingly negative perceptions “regarding the necessity of and desire to have cars.”

"There’s a cultural change taking place," John Casesa, a veteran auto industry analyst told the New York Times in 2009. “It’s partly because of the severe economic contraction. But younger consumers are viewing an automobile with a jaundiced eye. They don’t view the car the way their parents did, and they don’t have the money that their parents did.”

A survey by the National Association of Realtors conducted in March 2011 revealed that 62 percent of people ages 18-29 said they would prefer to live in a communities with a mix of single family homes, condos and apartments, nearby retail shops, restaurants, cafes and bars, as well as workplaces, libraries, and schools served by public transportation. A separate 2011 Urban Land Institute survey found that nearly two-thirds of 18 to 32-year-olds polled preferred to live in walkable communities."