Come on. This sucks and I hope they don't build it. But, I can't help but think they probably will. :(

Edmond Residents Against Proposed Wal-Mart Store - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/20049179/edmond-residents-against-proposed-wal-mart-store)

Property Tax Deathmatch: Walmart vs. Local Pub « Thoughts on the Urban Environment (http://nathanielhood.com/2011/12/10/property-tax-deathmatch-walmart-vs-local-pub/)

once again Sid... thank you for a link that helps to prove what i have always said, but didn't have anything to back it up! :)

Maybe I'm overlooking something but shouldn't sales tax generated equate into this? Shouldn't all the revenue generated be taken into consideration?

I'm pro mom & pop 110%. But just looking at property taxes seems kind of skewed to me.

you would think... but look at it this way. lets take some creative liberties and move both of these locations with the same property tax to say Norman.

the sales tax for the city of norman is just 3.5% of that 8.25% (the state is 4.5% and the rest is cleveland county)

lets assume that this Walmart generates $100 Million in revenue each year (i think a fair assumption)
so
100,000,000 X / .035 is 3.5 million. again, sounds like a lot. now lets add the property tax of 317,992 into that and we are at 3,817,992 and that is for the 13.7 acres of land that it takes up

so per acre that would be 3,817,992 / 13.7 = $278,685 per acre for the city

so lets compare that to the pub. now the pub only uses .35 acres

so lets find out how much the walmart produces for every .35 acres.

so that would be 278,685 X .35 = $97,539 per .35 acres

so to generate the the same tax for the city for the pub, we must first take out the property tax

97,539 - 28,744 = $68,795 that needs to be generated in city sales tax.

so 68,795 / .035 = $1,965,571. So the pub only needs to generate $2 million is revenue (not profits) to be slightly over what Walmart is paying in taxes to the city.

a successful bar, i think can easily generate 2 Million in sales in a year in sales, as that is just under $5500 a day in sales. and just replace the .035 with the (for norman) .0825 and figure your numbers there, and you will get similar numbers in the end.

granted this is all on the assumption of a walmart store in that area producing 100 Million in revenue... I'm not sure how realistic this number is...

EDIT: I hope all my math was right, otherwise i look like a total fool.

Edmond is such a silly place.

Thanks for doing all the math Curt and I was indeed overlooking something.

$2mil a year in sales for a pub sounds kind of high to me.

$2mil a year in sales for a pub sounds kind of high to me.

why? that's just 275 people spending $20 a day.... and i rarely have less than a $20 tab at a pub, especially if i get food. that seems very reasonable to me. increase the average check to just $25 and now you only need 220 people. if you have 300 that spend $25 on a saturday, you don't need to be that busy the rest of the week. $2 million in sales is really not much at all.

Property Tax Deathmatch: Walmart vs. Local Pub « Thoughts on the Urban Environment (http://nathanielhood.com/2011/12/10/property-tax-deathmatch-walmart-vs-local-pub/)
Wow. Thanks for sharing and I never knew it was that much of a difference. :/

Sales tax is based on money spent. It doesn't matter if it is spent at Wal-Mart or in downtown Norman (using the example above). At best, you might could argue that Wal-Mart attracts shoppers from outside Norman, but who travels to someone elses Wal-Mart? If Norman had a thriving historic downtown you could eaily make the case that it attracts people from outside Norman.

Sales tax is based on money spent. It doesn't matter if it is spent at Wal-Mart or in downtown Norman (using the example above). At best, you might could argue that Wal-Mart attracts shoppers from outside Norman, but who travels to someone elses Wal-Mart? If Norman had a thriving historic downtown you could eaily make the case that it attracts people from outside Norman. Wouldn't Guthrie would be good example of that?

This corner is eventually going to have something on it. Its been commercially zoned for years... Edmondites are stupid for thinking its not gonna happen on their corner lol

Much as I'd love for the people to prevail, what the heck made them think there would not eventually be a Walmart there? And it's not just Wallyworld. With Lowe's just south, what will fill in the empty spaces between? Braums? Mazzios? PetCo? Old Navy?

Edmond, Edmond, Edmond, welcome to suburbia.

you would think... but look at it this way. lets take some creative liberties and move both of these locations with the same property tax to say Norman.

the sales tax for the city of norman is just 3.5% of that 8.25% (the state is 4.5% and the rest is cleveland county)

lets assume that this Walmart generates $100 Million in revenue each year (i think a fair assumption)
so
100,000,000 X / .035 is 3.5 million. again, sounds like a lot. now lets add the property tax of 317,992 into that and we are at 3,817,992 and that is for the 13.7 acres of land that it takes up

so per acre that would be 3,817,992 / 13.7 = $278,685 per acre for the city

so lets compare that to the pub. now the pub only uses .35 acres

so lets find out how much the walmart produces for every .35 acres.

so that would be 278,685 X .35 = $97,539 per .35 acres

so to generate the the same tax for the city for the pub, we must first take out the property tax

97,539 - 28,744 = $68,795 that needs to be generated in city sales tax.

so 68,795 / .035 = $1,965,571. So the pub only needs to generate $2 million is revenue (not profits) to be slightly over what Walmart is paying in taxes to the city.

a successful bar, i think can easily generate 2 Million in sales in a year in sales, as that is just under $5500 a day in sales. and just replace the .035 with the (for norman) .0825 and figure your numbers there, and you will get similar numbers in the end.

granted this is all on the assumption of a walmart store in that area producing 100 Million in revenue... I'm not sure how realistic this number is...

EDIT: I hope all my math was right, otherwise i look like a total fool.

What is not considered here is the number of people that a Wal-mart would employ compared to the pub.

What is not considered here is the number of people that a Wal-mart would employ compared to the pub. Where would you rather work.. Uptown Grocery or Walmart? Because for one I'm not 100% against a Walmart being built in North Edmond (I'm talking like more towards Waterloo and Broadway). There a neighborhood right by it that some might consider to be in the same league as Gaillardia and putting a Walmart right by it seems like something that isn't fitted with it's surroundings. But who knows, if it's a neighborhood market maybe they could find a way to mix it in with upscale retail. idk.

I am not trying to make a statement about where is a better place to work. I was just pointing out that in a comparison of the economic impact between a local pub and a Wal-mart that the number of jobs created also needs to be considered. A Wal-mart will employ 300 to 500 people. A local pub will probably employ a dozen or less. Even if the direct tax impact favors the pub the overall economic benefit to the community will favor the Wal-mar due to the payroll generated.

I just wonder if it doesn't all boil down to the fact that the "upscale" residents around the area just don't want the 'riff" in the neighborhood that they think the Wal Mart will attract?

I am not trying to make a statement about where is a better place to work. I was just pointing out that in a comparison of the economic impact between a local pub and a Wal-mart that the number of jobs created also needs to be considered. A Wal-mart will employ 300 to 500 people. A local pub will probably employ a dozen or less. Even if the direct tax impact favors the pub the overall economic benefit to the community will favor the Wal-mar due to the payroll generated.I know what your saying. But, it seems like to me it just decreases the quality of life and they are minimum wage jobs. Personally I would rather have 10-15 local or "higher-end" businesses go in and pay their employes more than a Walmart giving out minimum wage to just about every employee there. But, I do understand what you are saying and I guess working at Walmart is a good job for young kids (I'm only 18 so throw me in that boat..haha) to gain some experience and money. But either way I would just rather prefer a shopping center similar to the one on 15th and Bryant. Then you could move the Walmart and build a super Walmart further northeast and build a Target and a shopping center like the one in Midwest city but much more dense along Covell and Kelly where that horse farm used to be.

I am consistently amused by people on OKCTalk.

This is America. If you want to open up a high-end pub that will generate so much tax revenue, please go ahead. You may hate Wal-Mart - don't shop there. They are the ones buying the land and taking the risk.

Everyone in Edmond thinks the only "acceptable" commercial is a Gap, Apple or Restoration Hardware store. News flash - ain't gonna happen, not in this economic environment.

Instead of whining, let's support local businesses! I do, and would be happy to help generate some sales tax revenue at your high-end pub! Paulaner Salvator, please!

I believe Edmond residents are simply against this is because Wal Mart isnt exactly a "high end" super center when you have a city thats generally wealthy, If it was a Target, I believe they would have not been so against this idea. My opinion is just on the outside looking in lol.

I just wonder if it doesn't all boil down to the fact that the "upscale" residents around the area just don't want the 'riff" in the neighborhood that they think the Wal Mart will attract?

Thats exactly what it boils down too. You see A LOT of people who do not care about their appearance shopping in Wal-Mart and Edmond residents simply don't want that.

You Can't Have Too Many Walmarts.
Resistance is Futile.
You Will Be Assimilated.
(unless you pretend they don't exist
and don't shop there)

yet honesty demands
that i admit that
the exceptional quality of
the "ciabatta rolls"
and the rotiscerre chicken
at the ["'neighborhood' 'market'"]
at Britton and Penn
is worth violating
all personal preferences
of financial support for
other horns of plenty.

Thread Title: "????????, walmart
[it's just anothercase of cost/value cognitive dissonance/logic-tight compartmental thinking. Well . . . Isn't it? =)]

I believe Edmond residents are simply against this is because Wal Mart isnt exactly a "high end" super center when you have a city thats generally wealthy, If it was a Target, I believe they would have not been so against this idea. My opinion is just on the outside looking in lol. I think it's that and the fact that they Don't want any more development out there and like I said before, there's a housing development right by it called Oak Tree which I believe has houses upwards of $2,000,000. They also said in the article that they don't want the traffic that comes with it. But, again, I'm neutral in this. I just think a better spot could've been chosen a little northeast.

Good for OakTree. Good for North Edmond. Can we please have one small corner of our metro area that is not "big box at all costs, full- steam-ahead to the lowest common denominator.?" Look, I'm a capitalist, I'm not, in theory, against Wal-Mart. But I'm also for the rights of people to desire and demand a standard of development that they want for their community. I wouldn't want to live near a Wal-Mart if I could help it.

I just wonder if it doesn't all boil down to the fact that the "upscale" residents around the area just don't want the 'riff" in the neighborhood that they think the Wal Mart will attract? It could be, however, when upscale residents build upscale subdivisions and communities, I could see where they are just trying to protect their "investment". This may sound somewhat elitist, however, I would want to protect my most valuable asset being my home. Face it, NIMBYism is alive and well everywhere, not just Edmond.

Huge fuss over a wally-world neighborhood market.

Aren't corporations people now? Isn't Wal-mart Inc. a weathly fellow? So why not let a wealthy neighbor build a place for his son, as opposed to 2-3 or 6 smallish barely getting by LLC's set up in a ugly strip mall later on? Where's the welcome mat for another wealthy citizen helping junior join the community?

Wouldn't Guthrie would be good example of that?

Yep.

I am not trying to make a statement about where is a better place to work. I was just pointing out that in a comparison of the economic impact between a local pub and a Wal-mart that the number of jobs created also needs to be considered. A Wal-mart will employ 300 to 500 people. A local pub will probably employ a dozen or less. Even if the direct tax impact favors the pub the overall economic benefit to the community will favor the Wal-mar due to the payroll generated.

500 employees over 13.7 acres comes out to 12 employees for every .35 acres.... So a dozen employees at the pub, is a same comparable economic impact as the Walmart when you compare impact per acre... I'm not saying a Walmart is bad, I'm not saying that I prefer a "high end" pub. I'm just saying that when you break down the numbers there isn't much of a difference...

If you fully developed the 13.7 acres as an entertainment district the city would see about the same economic impact... So yes, most on OKCTalk will say then make every Walmart something else... I'm just saying that when you actually apply math and logic instead of assumptions you realize that the differences are not as great as you think

The thing is you're not going to get that kind of dense development in that area, so the comparative economic impact point is not valid for the proposed location.

people do realize this is just a neighborhood market, right?

Also, not to be THAT guy, but don't buy/build your dream/retirement home right next to a zoned commercial if you don't want to have the headache of something commercial going in. Could be worse, like a gas station.

But if they want to protest and axe it from happening, good for them. Too bad we couldn't do that about KD's restuarant

You can never have too many walmarts.

people do realize this is just a neighborhood market, right?

Also, not to be THAT guy, but don't buy/build your dream/retirement home right next to a zoned commercial if you don't want to have the headache of something commercial going in. Could be worse, like a gas station.

But if they want to protest and axe it from happening, good for them. Too bad we couldn't do that about KD's restuarant

Exactly. I've never understood this mentality people have in Edmond. We have laughed as long as we've lived here at this. I would hate to own commercial property in this town. Every time someone wants to do something with their land, everyone living nearby starts screaming. I know there's an area just outside my neighborhood that is zoned commercial and I fully expect that someday soon, someone is going to want to build something there and that's okay. We bought our house here knowing that it was there. When they decide to do something with the land, we will not have any right to complain about it, but I'm sure there will be lots of whining people in my neighborhood. If you didn't do your research before you bought your home that's your fault, not the landowners. I could understand it if the land was previously zoned residential and they were wanting to change it to commercial or apartments or something, but most of the time this is not the case here. Unbelievable.

Long ago, when we were buying a home, I fell in love with a house that packed up to an area that was zoned commercial. Our real estate agent just flat told me she wouldn't let me buy it. She said some day there's gonna be a grocery store there, and you aren't gonna like it. Sure enough within 3 years there was a store on that land, and I was happy we bought further into the neighborhood.

500 employees over 13.7 acres comes out to 12 employees for every .35 acres.... So a dozen employees at the pub, is a same comparable economic impact as the Walmart when you compare impact per acre... I'm not saying a Walmart is bad, I'm not saying that I prefer a "high end" pub. I'm just saying that when you break down the numbers there isn't much of a difference...

If you fully developed the 13.7 acres as an entertainment district the city would see about the same economic impact... So yes, most on OKCTalk will say then make every Walmart something else... I'm just saying that when you actually apply math and logic instead of assumptions you realize that the differences are not as great as you think

A one acre urban pub is pretty darn big and would have way more than 12 employees. I don't know of very many 43,560 sq foot pubs. Most I know top out in 3,000 sq foot range.

Hmmm.

Oppose Wal-Mart! Top 5 Wal-Myths (http://www.opposewalmart.com/walmyths.html)

You can disregard myths 3, 4, and 5. Those only apply to the people who shop or work there. 1 and 2 effects all of us.

A one acre urban pub is pretty darn big and would have way more than 12 employees. I don't know of very many 43,560 sq foot pubs. Most I know top out in 3,000 sq foot range.

Which is why it comes out to 12 employees for ever .35 acres not 1 acre (what i said in my statement that you quoted)... And .35 acres was the size of the pub listed in the link by Sid inwhich the reference was to.

I also dont know of any 1 acre pubs, which is why I wasn't talking about one...

Walmart and Edmond deserve each other.

Mind numbing mediocrity at its best.

Which is why it comes out to 12 employees for ever .35 acres not 1 acre (what i said in my statement that you quoted)... And .35 acres was the size of the pub listed in the link by Sid inwhich the reference was to.

I also dont know of any 1 acre pubs, which is why I wasn't talking about one...

Gotcha - thanks. Where did the 500 employees at a WalMart come from? Everything I have seen says it is closer to 200.

http://nyjobsource.com/walmart.html

people do realize this is just a neighborhood market, right?

Also, not to be THAT guy, but don't buy/build your dream/retirement home right next to a zoned commercial if you don't want to have the headache of something commercial going in. Could be worse, like a gas station.

But if they want to protest and axe it from happening, good for them. Too bad we couldn't do that about KD's restuarant
It can also work in commercial real estate, sometimes bad neighbors can help a sale along. Back when Robert Tilton had the big church on I-35E in Framers Branch there was a little two-story strip center fronting 35 in front of the church. Due to traffic and parking issues with the church he had a hard time leasing it out. He tried to get them to buy the property for years but they never responded with anything but a lowball offer. Knowing someone in the adult bookstore biz, he signed them to a lease to take over the entire first floor of the center and started the permitting process and put up "coming soon" signs, Once that it looked legit the church came back to him with a good offer, so he sold it at that time.

Neighborhood Markets have started opening up here in the Denver area, we have two near us in former Albertson's locations (there are still some Albertson's open here). Never much understood why the venom against those stores other than they are part of Walmart.

Gotcha - thanks. Where did the 500 employees at a WalMart come from? Everything I have seen says it is closer to 200.

WalMart Company Profile - NYJobSource.com (http://nyjobsource.com/walmart.html)

someone on here made the statement that a walmart employees 300-500 people. so i went with 500 to show a potential "best of show" for walmart, and alas, it failed

someone on here made the statement that a walmart employees 300-500 people. so i went with 500 to show a potential "best of show" for walmart, and alas, it failed

Fair enough. I noticed in the closing of the Quail Springs Sears store they have 182,000 sq feet (much larger than the average Walmart) but only 98 employees (all of whom probably have to park their car at the mall).

I believe Edmond residents are simply against this is because Wal Mart isnt exactly a "high end" super center when you have a city thats generally wealthy, If it was a Target, I believe they would have not been so against this idea. My opinion is just on the outside looking in lol.

The funny thing is, I don't ever recall any arguments about the neighborhood market built next to Fenwick...and yet somehow they've kept the riffraff out...

Fenwick isn't Oaktree and Fenwick is right in the middle of town

This has nothing to do with Oak Tree.

From the renderings it doesn't look too bad. Most Wal-Mart neighborhood markets are alright for grocery stores, its the giant Supercenters that I hate and refuse to shop at. The only reason I would be against this is every time a Wal-Mart gets built, one or two nearby traditional grocers bites the dust. I hope this doesn't hurt Uptown Grocery because that store is great and is what OKC desperately needs more of throughout the metro. Wal-Mart already ran out most of the competition in OKC and I worry that increased saturation will run out the few competitors that are left. That said, there are numerous places in the metro that are food deserts and having a Neighborhood Market would be better than the current situation which is nothing.

Edmond planners don't recommend permit for Walmart market | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/edmond-planners-dont-recommend-permit-for-walmart-market/article/3734704)

BTW If have time, read the commentary on this article. It is very interesting.

Good for Edmond

Commissioners Say No To Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market In Edmond - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/20268043/commissioners-say-no-to-wal-mart-neighborhood-market-in-edmond)

Edmond is such a silly place.

But having more than one Wal-Mart in town is really wonderful, because if one is out of stock of what you want, then the other one will probably have it.

Received word from a trusted source of mine(see I have a few sources ;)) that this is pretty much a go and the real estate deal is about to be finalized. Strange seeing as I thought it was turned down, but maybe something else happened. The rumored location is possibly Covell/Coltrane or perhaps the original location might still be a possibility. I know it is weird having that far separate locations, but this guy really seemed to know his stuff and he is big in real-estate. Just wanted to post, it may or may not happen, but take it with a grain of salt.

If it's to be at Covell & Coltrane, the NW corner looks good to go for commercial development.

People in the area should have the right to nix a store if they don't want it...however....what if it were Target? Would this discussion be taking place? A Supertarget would be the exact same thing. 2nd....the revenue # for the pub in the example is pretty high. Equivalent of 150 customers who pay A $35 average bill. Kind of high for a pub. 3rd, if the entire site were filled with pubs making those revenue numbers you might have an arguement.

People in the area should have the right to nix a store if they don't want it...however....what if it were Target? Would this discussion be taking place? A Supertarget would be the exact same thing. 2nd....the revenue # for the pub in the example is pretty high. Equivalent of 150 customers who pay A $35 average bill. Kind of high for a pub. 3rd, if the entire site were filled with pubs making those revenue numbers you might have an arguement.We're talking about Edmond here; so even if it were a Super Target, people would still complain about increased noise, traffic, crime blah blah blah

Somehow I doubt the decibal level would be half as high. One of my brothers is an anti-Wal Mart snob in Edmond and fully admits its Wal Mart specifically he opposes.

Yeah, there probably wouldn't be as much opposition.

It was only a little Walmart Neighborhood Market they were wanting to build, not a Super Center. Not nearly the same thing as a Super Target. The Covell & Coltrane location mentioned is practically in my backyard. I wouldn't have a problem with them building it there. I wish it would be something better like a Crest, but I wouldn't have a problem with a Walmart grocery store being there.

I would much rather Sprouts or a Trader Joe's build here.

Found out this deal fell through. Asking price was too high for the property.

Found out this deal fell through. Asking price was too high for the property.

Was that the Coffee Creek/Kelly location? If so, good.

If you get a chance check out Store Wars. It is available on Netflix instant view. A word of caution - love Walmart or hate Walmart - this movie will tick you off at the end.

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Not until I finish Dexter and I'm on episode 8 from season 1...