A number of posts in other threads have discussed questions of how to promote urbanization (I love the way we use complicated words to obfuscate simple ideas) of the CBD, otherwise known as "Downtown."

All of them, it seems to me, sidestep one of the most central issues involved.

Sixty years ago, in the very early 1950s, we had a thriving and energetic downtown. In fact, in many ways it resembled Damon Runyon's romanticized vision of Times Square in NYC! Most any night, Main street would be packed with pedestrian traffic from sundown until at least 9 or 10 p.m., and weekend evenings saw the action continuing past midnight.

We had almost a dozen movie houses in the CBD, at least three top-notch hotels (Skirvin, Huckins, and Biltmore), and several notable eating places, all contributing to the liveliness of the area. Bishop's, in particular, was a gathering place for many regulars. The more Runyonesque characters could be found at places like The Greek's in the 400 block of N Broadway, where Oklahoman staffers would relax after leaving the office at 1 a.m. And we even had real baggy-pants comics and exotic burlesque at a theater on Grand (or was the Gaiety on California?)... Our town, like New Orleans, let the good times roll.

Ten years later, though, things were rather different. Many of the major downtown merchants had moved to the suburbs. One of the first was J. C. Penny, which closed its Main street location and moved to the spanking new Shepherd Mall. Kerr's followed quickly although they retained their downtown presence a bit longer. Even John A. Brown joined the flight to suburban malls, opening branch stores at Penn Square and on Capitol Hill.

And the streets were no longer so crowded every night. I recall cruising down Main street at 9 p.m. the night before the first OU-Notre Dame game in Norman, and it was almost deserted.

That loss of interest in the CBD, and our collective infatuation with the malls -- Penn Square, Shepherd, Crossroads, even Mayfair -- set the stage for the violent destruction of much of downtown via Urban Renewal, with its accompanying rape of our historic heritage.

Yes, it was tragic, but we had a "Pei in the sky" vision of out-Dallasing Dallas with our bright new downtown, and our leaders at the time deemed it worth the cost. We know now, of course, that it wasn't, but hindsight is usually 20/20 or better.

My question, though, is simple: It took us almost 20 years to make the transition from a thriving, urban downtown area to a vast empty wasteland. Is it reasonable for anyone to expect that we can reverse that process in a shorter time?

I don't think it is. I think the best we can do is to take many small steps. Sure, it would be nice to have a half dozen or more tall towers -- but one of the things that made our downtown so great was its lack of the concrete canyons that typify Manhattan. Instead, we had a wide variety of amenities. I don't see anyone suggesting that we bring back the likes of the Criterion or the Warner (which began as the Overholser Opera House), nor am I aware of anything in the CBD even remotely resembling the atmosphere at Bishop's. Renovation of Film Row is great, but we also need to fill in the activity gaps that prevent downtown from becoming a destination in itself.

While typing that last sentence, a slip of my fingers coined a word that just might describe the apparent fate of Stage Center -- "removation." I have no strong feelings about that location, either way, but it's obvious that something is about to transpire...

As for the speed with which we can recover Downtown, what you you think?

The speed will be the rate at which the money makes sense.

It takes a whole lot less time and resources to just knock buildings down than it does to construct them.

Kyle - take a look at your choice of words. Downtown vs CBD (Central Business District). Downtown implies a fully functional 24/7 environment, CBD just means a business district. The question is really how fast we can change the central business district back to downtown. I prefer to think of it as 100 car freight train. It takes a lot of effort to get it going but once a head of steam is built up there will be serious momentum behind it. In 5 years we will see more downtown growth in 1 year than we did in 10 years 20 years ago. For those of you trying to figure that out, in 2017 downtown OKC will grow more than it did for all the years from 1992 to 2002 combined.

If other cities are any indication, once the streetcar line goes in the official bird of OKC will be the construction crane.

If other cities are any indication, once the streetcar line goes in the official bird of OKC will be the construction crane.I hope you're right, although I probably won't be around to see it...

I hope you're right, although I probably won't be around to see it...

So where are you going, Jim? We're planning on you being around to offer your input for many years to come.

I'm not planning any trips, but at 81 I've got to be realistic about the future...

You're just a youngster. Keep on keeping on.

That's my plan!

That's my plan!

My mom is 89 and she's as sharp as a tack.....remembers things that i'd long forgotten, and you seem to be the same way.

Residential and commercial are key for downtown growth unfortunately some developers failed to capitalize on the demand for downtown residential thus not providing a blueprint or bar to gauge downtown's draw for people to.want to live there. Right now almost all residential downtown is segmented a short distance away from the downtown rather than incorperated directly into mixed use buildings within.

I'm not at all sure that we should blame "some developers" for the sprawl and for the absence of mixed-use buildings in the CBD. For more than 100 years now, the general public has seemed to prefer living at a distance from the commercial areas, as witness the growth in the area around 10th to 13th (both NE and NW) before WW1, from 23rd to 39th a few decades later, to the west and south during the post-WW2 period, and so on.

And as the residential areas moved away, commercial interests followed them: Plaza Court, Uptown along 23rd, Capitol Hill along SW 25, Classen Boulevard, and finally the explosive growth of the malls. Sure, developers followed the cheapest land, but they also went where people were most willing to buy. When I bought my first home in 1958, I really wanted to get one around NW 19 and Western -- but the best I could afford turned out to be in a brand new development near SW 59 and May (one of my sons still owns it, BTW).

In the middle of the last century, we still had quite a bit of true downtown residential, although it wasn't obvious to most. There were a number of cheap hotels along Broadway, and a few even on Main Street, where non-transient folk lived. The Herskowitz building at Broadway and Grand was mostly apartments. Another apartment building very close to the CBD was the Wilmont on NW 5 (as I recall but it could have been 4 or 6). Even the not-so-cheap hotels had permanent residents: Alfalfa Bill Murray lived out his life at the Bristol on the NE corner of NW 2 and Broadway. But "the demand for downtown residential" just wasn't there after Urban Renewal destroyed the existing facilities, and so developers followed the demand that did exist, out into the wheat fields surrounding the city.

Until the demand for downtown can become strong again, mixed-use isn't very likely to return. So the starting point ought to be re-creation of the demand. The desired result will surely follow, once that is done...

A number of posts in other threads have discussed questions of how to promote urbanization (I love the way we use complicated words to obfuscate simple ideas) ...

This :)

Well, I could have said "I'm preternaturally attracted by our infatuation with polysyllabic restatement of relatively uncomplicated concepts" had I been really going for the brass ring...

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/W%20Main%20St/21412M5621BarneyHillermanCollection-Photographs-Box1289ERPARADE300BLOCKWESTMAIN.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/W%20Main%20St/WMainEastfromHudson.jpg

This thread kinda confuses me, because downtown IS back. My god, it's roaring... even in the past few years you can tell a huge difference between being the typical U.S. city that tells itself its downtown is back again, and a downtown that is now truly booming.

UnFrSaKn, your old pictures of OKC always make me so sad to think of what all we've lost and where we once were.

This thread kinda confuses me, because downtown IS back. My god, it's roaring.Look at the first photo posted by UnFrSaKn and you will see the difference between what was, then, and what is, today. We don't even try to have parades like that one any more...

That's not true. Thunder Alley was/could still be one of the greatest things this city has ever done. Opening Night is right up there. The Flaming Lips' March of a Thousand Ghouls not only had many more than just at thousand ghouls, but it was also right up there. What about the Festival of the Arts, still going amazingly strong?

There are so many fantastic things happening downtown NOW that still goes unnoticed or uncredited. Downtown has never left OKC's DNA. Downtown may soon even become more of a place to live than it has EVER been. The difference is that we still can't figure out retail.

If you are looking for something to blame for the demise of downtowns everywhere you can start with the 1949 Housing Act.

Restoring Downtown OKC Retail | OKC Central (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/10/23/restoring-downtown-okc-retail/)

Kyle - take a look at your choice of words. Downtown vs CBD (Central Business District). Downtown implies a fully functional 24/7 environment, CBD just means a business district. The question is really how fast we can change the central business district back to downtown. I prefer to think of it as 100 car freight train. It takes a lot of effort to get it going but once a head of steam is built up there will be serious momentum behind it. In 5 years we will see more downtown growth in 1 year than we did in 10 years 20 years ago. For those of you trying to figure that out, in 2017 downtown OKC will grow more than it did for all the years from 1992 to 2002 combined.

If other cities are any indication, once the streetcar line goes in the official bird of OKC will be the construction crane.

I think we have already reached that stage -- or pretty close to it!

But the streetcar line should definitely spur additional development along the route. That and the residential mass that is building up with each new downtown project.

With the emerging wave of downtown residents who will be, in turn, connected to the various districts by streetcar, we should see a new flourishing of downtown life. I think we're getting very close to this goal.

UnFrSaKn, your old pictures of OKC always make me so sad to think of what all we've lost and where we once were.

I agree that our "urban renewal" planning destroyed the fabric of what could have turned into a truly great mid size city. Sad. Hopefully, those planning OKC's DT future today will learn from the past and create a dense, interactive (people) district. Their is certainly a relatively blank canvas from which to start.

Downtown is on its way back. I think the next line to cross will be when downtown is a self-sustaining district to live, work, and play and you no longer have to go to suburban areas for basic necessities. Some of our peer cities like Louisville actually have full-fledged retail downtown, integrated well into the downtown fabric (We have to be VERY careful not to allow developers to build suburban style big box stores with massive parking lots downtown). I don't think downtown is quite there yet. I would love if Buy for Less would build an Uptown Grocery in Midtown. That would be a complete game changer for downtown OKC.

I would love if Buy for Less would build an Uptown Grocery in Midtown. That would be a complete game changer for downtown OKC.You might not be aware that Crescent Market was, for most of its 100+ years of existence, located on the west side of Plaza Court. It moved out to Nichols Hills only about 10 years ago -- and got put out of business by Chesapeake's expansion plans.

Jim: There was some talk that they might relocate back downtown after getting kicked out by Chesapeake...may have been false hope though as I haven't heard anything about it since then

Downtown is on its way back. I think the next line to cross will be when downtown is a self-sustaining district to live, work, and play and you no longer have to go to suburban areas for basic necessities. Some of our peer cities like Louisville actually have full-fledged retail downtown, integrated well into the downtown fabric (We have to be VERY careful not to allow developers to build suburban style big box stores with massive parking lots downtown). I don't think downtown is quite there yet. I would love if Buy for Less would build an Uptown Grocery in Midtown. That would be a complete game changer for downtown OKC.Hank Binkowski told me he is thinking about new locations and that it is likely to see that when I asked him at orientation. I now work at Uptown Grocery and it will be a big success! Man I really wish I had the money to invest right now. By the time I get the money(or if I ever get the money), there will already be established grocers and pharmacies in these areas. :/

Hank Binkowski told me he is thinking about new locations and that it is likely to see that when I asked him at orientation. I now work at Uptown Grocery and it will be a big success! Man I really wish I had the money to invest right now. By the time I get the money(or if I ever get the money), there will already be established grocers and pharmacies in these areas. :/

Awesome! So a Midtown Uptown is really a possibility and not just a pie in the sky wish? This will be excellent for Buy for Less, Midtown, and all of OKC if it happens as they will be basically cornering the market before the big chains do. I would much rather see a quality local grocery like that than a Wal-Mart or Target, even if the chains were to adhere to urban design standards.

Kyle, you might be interested in this book. It is fresh off the press and is available at Barnes and Nobel.

The End of the Suburbs: Where the American Dream Is Moving: Leigh Gallagher: 9781591845256: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Suburbs-American-Moving/dp/1591845254#reader_B008EKMCM2)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51e0FOyH2dL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

Jim, the years slip away so stealthily that sometimes we lose track of them. I'm not sure exactly how long ago Crescent Market moved to Nichols Hills Plaza, but do know that it was more than ten years ago. I know that the first time I shopped there was about 25 years ago in the late eighties...and they were already a well-established fixture in that location. My guess is that the move happened more like 35 years ago, or more.

Crescent Market moved to Nichols Hills Plaza in 1963.

Well, there you go. 45.

Haha I fixed a typo in my previous post and lost soonerguru's "like". I guess that's automatic so you can't change the meaning of a post and make it look like someone agrees with you...

From the business chat:
Steve: The scale and importance of the next wave of development, not just in terms of buildings, but in terms of added people to the downtown mix, the types of people being added to the mix, the advancement of downtown retail, and many more fundamental changes coming will finally begin to emerge. We're looking at changes that will truly bring life to downtown on weeknights. We're looking at a diversification of downtown's population and workforce. We're looking at 2014-2020 being an era of incredible transformation for Oklahoma City's urban core, and the public will be getting a good glimpse of all this fairly soon. Small print caveat: all of this is subject to change if Congress, the President, Wall Street or the folks at 23rd and Lincoln find a way to screw up the economy for Oklahoma City.

"The scale and importance of the next wave of development, not just in terms of buildings, but in terms of added people to the downtown mix, the types of people being added to the mix, the advancement of downtown retail, and many more fundamental changes coming will finally begin to emerge. "

An interesting item on this topic -- a blog by a recent empty nester who is moving to downtown OKC:

Downtown Downsizing (http://downtowndownsizing.blogspot.com)

"The scale and importance of the next wave of development, not just in terms of buildings, but in terms of added people to the downtown mix, the types of people being added to the mix, the advancement of downtown retail, and many more fundamental changes coming will finally begin to emerge. "

An interesting item on this topic -- a blog by a recent empty nester who is moving to downtown OKC:

Downtown Downsizing (http://downtowndownsizing.blogspot.com)

Good stuff and an interesting read for sure. What I'd really like to see is a young couple with kids blog about life downtown with a family. Like sidburgess or the Native Roots owners. So many ignorant OKCers still think downtown is only for singles or retirees, ridiculous how people have no idea what's going in their own city -and that yes, you can actually (gulp!) raise a family in downtown here.

Kyle, you might be interested in this book. It is fresh off the press and is available at Barnes and Nobel.

The End of the Suburbs: Where the American Dream Is Moving: Leigh Gallagher: 9781591845256: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Suburbs-American-Moving/dp/1591845254#reader_B008EKMCM2)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51e0FOyH2dL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

Read it yesterday from start to finish. What an easy, fascinating read. I get the feeling that in a few years, these books will be discussing downtown OKC's renaissance too. It's quite the accomplishment to build a walkable neighborhood of any sort in the car-centric West. Any other suggestions? Suburban Nation is next.

Kyle, you might be interested in this book. It is fresh off the press and is available at Barnes and Nobel.

The End of the Suburbs: Where the American Dream Is Moving: Leigh Gallagher: 9781591845256: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Suburbs-American-Moving/dp/1591845254#reader_B008EKMCM2)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51e0FOyH2dL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

The future is choice, not one or the other. People will be able to choose urban living or suburban living depending on their preferences. I don't understand why so many people think the urban renaissance in cities nationwide represents the complete end of the suburbs.

+1. I believe the suburbs are going to get nicer and the urban areas are to grow stronger and get nicer as well.

+1. I believe the suburbs are going to get nicer and the urban areas are to grow stronger and get nicer as well.

Certainly possible -that book spends a lot of time discussing changes in the suburbs themselves (to make them more "urban"). I think we're getting to the end of the "suburbs as we know them", not just a blanket end to the suburbs. I know I wouldn't miss suburbia though.

Certainly possible -that book spends a lot of time discussing changes in the suburbs themselves (to make them more "urban"). I think we're getting to the end of the "suburbs as we know them", not just a blanket end to the suburbs. I know I wouldn't miss suburbia though.

We are already seeing this kind of thing happen in other cities. Suburban mixed use developments with a "town center" for retail and recreation are starting to pop up. The Ballantyne area of Charlotte is the perfect example of this. That neighborhood combines the best of suburbia and new urbanism.

Certainly possible -that book spends a lot of time discussing changes in the suburbs themselves (to make them more "urban"). I think we're getting to the end of the "suburbs as we know them", not just a blanket end to the suburbs. I know I wouldn't miss suburbia though.Tons and tons of traditional suburban housing is still either under construction or planned. I think the building styles will be of better quality and will be little more urban but not much outside of the town core.

Like bchris said, the future is choice and that means suburbs developing their own core. I would certainly hope an entire suburb would not become urban, I would not like that. Edmond ought to define its core and build a great urban core for itself while preserving suburban development outside of its core. This will give people a choice. 6 lane all the roads outside of it and narrow Broadway going through downtown to 2 lanes. I would love to see a streetcar in DT Edmond as well. More choices for people is the way to go and overtime I think it will only get better here.

Suburbs are hurt by rising transportation costs. If $8-10 per gallon gasoline is in our future, then the suburbs have a big obstacle they have to overcome. The other thing that hurts suburbs is the rising cost of infrastructure. Building 6 lane roads everywhere costs money. Building huge freeways costs a lot of money.

Eventually the Feds will change how they finance the interstates, and states will have to adapt. Those that are dependent on loads of federal highway dollars may be in trouble.

Now if tomorrow someone invents a flying car that runs on rays of happy sunshine then all these matters may change.

Suburbs are hurt by rising transportation costs. If $8-10 per gallon gasoline is in our future, then the suburbs have a big obstacle they have to overcome. The other thing that hurts suburbs is the rising cost of infrastructure. Building 6 lane roads everywhere costs money. Building huge freeways costs a lot of money.

Eventually the Feds will change how they finance the interstates, and states will have to adapt. Those that are dependent on loads of federal highway dollars may be in trouble.

Now if tomorrow someone invents a flying car that runs on rays of happy sunshine then all these matters may change.

Once again, most of the jobs in the metro aren't downtown.

Once again, most of the jobs in the metro aren't downtown.

There sure are a ton of people working downtown though, way more than before. Or at least closer to the city's core.

Top employers.

Greater Oklahoma City Economic Development - Major Employers (http://www.greateroklahomacity.com/index.php?src=directory&view=employers)

$8 to $10 gas might actually help the burbs. Under those conditions, if your job wasn't downtown you sure don't need to live there and commute for everything but a Thunder game.

Top employers.

Greater Oklahoma City Economic Development - Major Employers (http://www.greateroklahomacity.com/index.php?src=directory&view=employers)

$8 to $10 gas might actually help the burbs. Under those conditions, if your job wasn't downtown you sure don't need to live there and commute for everything but a Thunder game.

How many of those jobs are in Yukon? Or are Northwest of Lake Hefner? Not very many.

High gas prices might help certain burbs. It would certainly hurt others. Living close to your job is fine, whether it's downtown or not. The problem is with a lifestyle that requires a very long commute. Our current growth pattern encourages that, and that is something we need to be very careful of in the future.

How many of those jobs are in Yukon? Or are Northwest of Lake Hefner? Not very many.

High gas prices might help certain burbs. It would certainly hurt others. Living close to your job is fine, whether it's downtown or not. The problem is with a lifestyle that requires a very long commute. Our current growth pattern encourages that, and that is something we need to be very careful of in the future.

Exactly. The point is, the broad brush "suburbs" is irrelevant when the residents work, shop and carry on their everyday functions with the least amount of commuting, as many of us do who live in the metro "suburbs."


How many of those jobs are in Yukon? Or are Northwest of Lake Hefner? Not very many.

Integris of Yukon, Xerox, the multitude of commercial businesses up and down Garth Brooks Blvd., the outlet mall, the industrial areas that line I-40 west are closer to Yukon than the urban core. I'd have to pull out a map but I'd guess the same is true for Hobby Lobby. Similarly for NW of Hefner, Mercy, Paycom, Integris Cancer Center and the NW shopping corridors (plural) are all closer to NW than downtown.

If the highways are any evidence, someone has a long commute. They have gotten exponentially more crowded over the past few years. Time for a train.

Hey, everyone! I'm the blogger writing about downsizing and moving downtown (Downtown Downsizing (http://www.downtowndownsizing.blogspot.com)). We're actually moving in this weekend after living in Edmond the last couple of years and Yukon before that. Neither my husband nor I work downtown so that's not what lured us there. And, while we're downsizing, we're not old (49 & 50), we're just looking forward to shedding some of the responsibilities of having a high-performance home and being close to all the exciting things that are going on in downtown OKC. I think living downtown can and should appeal to people of all ages -- but the expense of living downtown will certainly cause some people to think more than twice.

Having been born and raised in OKC, I can remember a time where downtown was the LAST place I'd want to be. The idea of living downtown would have never occurred to me as a kid or even a younger adult. Times have changed that and it's still changing. It's going to be interesting to be there to see downtown grow and change and become more and more a place where people want to not just go to on the weekend or game night, but where people want to live.

I don't think I buy into the decline of the suburbs. We've had too many people ask us if we are crazy for wanting to live downtown... but I bet they're some of the first to come visit us once we get settled in, too. :)

I think it finally hit me... Downtown Downsizing: I think it finally hit me... (http://bit.ly/1drUld3)

I was in downtown OKC in the the 50's though the 70's. I don't mean to
dis Jim Kyle but OKC was never a mecca of excitement. Yes, during the
lunch hour there were many diners that pleased many diners. The Red Barn
Johnny's Topper Burger, Martin's and the Sieber Hotel immediately come to
mind. Of course in the evening there was Kotche's dance hall, but not daily.

It wasn't what I would call a mecca of excitement, either, but it was better than any alternative available within a 75-mile radius. And when I visited my lady love there for New Year's 1953, Tulsa wasn't any better. (The romance didn't survive when I came home from Korea a couple of years later.)

If you hung out around the Seiber, you couldn't have missed Priddy's little diner diagonally across the intersection from it. Downtown you had Bishop's around the clock, the Anna Maude and Katz during the day, the Greek's in the 400 block N Broadway where the Oklahoman crew gathered after getting off work at 1 a.m., and if your interests ran to that direction you could go pub-crawling along Grand any evening: Little Louie's, The Little White Cloud, and a dozen or so less reputable places. Not that I ever did so, of course (sly grin) but as police reporter I had to be quite familiar with the action. Weekend evenings were always busy downtown in the 40s and 50s, but grew less so as time passed and things migrated out to Uptown (which in those days meant 23 and Walker, not Plaza Court)...

With the razing of downtown in the urban renewal craze, most all of this went away. I left OKC in 1959 and didn't get back until 1962 so I wasn't around for the bitter end of downtown. It was still limping along in the first part of the 60s, but I was too busy with other things to notice (and, frankly, no longer cared so much as I had earlier). Next time I looked, the downtown I had known and loved was a vast wasteland of empty spaces.

What a fun downtown weekend! Downtown Downsizing: What a fun downtown weekend! (http://bit.ly/1iOMyKh)

What a fun downtown weekend! Downtown Downsizing: What a fun downtown weekend! (http://bit.ly/1iOMyKh)

Just a heads up. Bourbon street is on the lower floor canal level. Yucatan is street level.

Just a heads up. Bourbon street is on the lower floor canal level. Yucatan is street level.

Thanks for the info... didn't know that. Still don't like Bourbon Street... but I'll correct that in a future post. Appreciate the help!

Thanks for the info... didn't know that. Still don't like Bourbon Street... but I'll correct that in a future post. Appreciate the help!

Bourbon Street is great for sitting next to the canal with a glass of wine.

Bourbon Street is great for sitting next to the canal with a glass of wine.

I could definitely do that. It's just their food I don't care for. :) They probably make more money on their wine anyway so I bet they wouldn't mind.

Try the blackened pork chop.

Try the blackened pork chop.

Well, we have a plant-based diet so pork chops aren't on the menu for us. :)