He was saying the full cost to manage all of the paperwork and accounts would exceed the amount of the tax collected. The tax collected would go to hire employees to manage the new system instead of the maintenance of the roads.

Well then I don't get it because my tax plan doesn't require any new employees and is way more efficient than the current tax colletion methods. I just want to add 1 line to the license tag renewal form that asks how many miles are on the car.

Another state is starting to vies the gasoline tax as inadequate in light of higher fuel efficiencies.
Washington considers by-the-mile road fee system to replace gas tax | OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2013/01/washington_considers_by-the-mi.html)

Hammond said it could be 10 years before the state implements any sort of road user fee. "We're taking it one step at a time," she said, adding, "I think a robust policy debate is absolutely necessary, and a public vetting."

Still to be debated is how the fee would be charged — by miles driven, time spent on the road or another alternative — and how mileage would be reported or collected.

Options for collecting mileage include annual odometer readings, smartphone apps and equipping cars with GPS devices that would track miles driven. But the prospect of tracking drivers by GPS is likely to raise protests from those concerned about privacy issues.

The idea of charging drivers by the mile isn't a new one. At least 18 states have studied the idea as one of many ways to replace fuel tax, but no state has implemented it widely, said Jaime Rall, a senior policy specialist with the National Conference of State Legislatures.

"It's a very popular idea to think about, but there's no jurisdiction that has that kind of fee on all vehicles. It's still very much experimental," Rall said. "It's one of the options on the table. Many transportation experts think it's one of the better options, but the general public still has very real concerns about privacy and equity."

An Oregon pilot project is testing a way to collect road user fees.

Martin Callery of North Bend, Ore., is one of 40 volunteers who have agreed to pay a charge for each mile they drive during the three-month project.

He equipped his 2009 Honda CRV with a GPS device that tracks his miles. Other volunteers had the choice to pay a flat-rate plan that doesn't report mileage or to report mileage without a GPS.

Based on early reports, Callery thinks he and his wife have paid less than what they would have paid in fuel taxes.

"I think this is an important phase of getting a system that's ready to go," said Callery, who works for the Port of Coos Bay.

Privacy may be a concern by some who don't want government tracking their movements, but Callery said it wasn't a big deal for him.

Callery said he thinks all roadway users need to pay their fair share. "If people want to see the transportation system maintained and improved, they're going to pay as you go."

Based on early reports, Callery thinks he and his wife have paid less than what they would have paid in fuel taxes.

Ah crap. The goal isn't to pay less taxes, the goal is to pay what it cost to maintain the roads. If this guy's tax bill went down then the per mile tax isn't high enough (unless he is getting like 10 mpg or something).

...and this from L.A. today

L.A. City Council Considers Hefty Pothole Tax | KTLA 5 (http://ktla.com/2013/01/10/la-city-council-considers-pothole-tax/)



LOS ANGELES (KTLA) — The Los Angeles City Council is considering a hefty bond measure to fix damaged roads.

Lawmakers are proposing a $3 billion street repair bond that could be placed on the May ballot.

Los Angeles has the largest municipal street system in the country, and it’s falling apart.

Councilman Mitch Englander says that, though a tax is unfair, it’s city leaders of the past who created the issue.

“I’m so aggravated on how we got here. There’s been so many mistakes made,” Englander said.

“There’s no question the revenue streams that come in that is dedicated specifically for streets has been depleted,” he added.

For every $100,000 in property value, taxpayers would pay an average of $35 more per year.

And another figure to keep in mind: Drivers pay about $750 a year to fix their cars after driving on damaged roads.

The reader comments are great. So many people are so clueless I would cry if they didn't make me laugh.


I will be voting NO! The City needs to live within it's means.

Umm, that is what they are trying to do.



How many times are we going to suffer a tax increase "dedicated to xxxxx" and find out the money was used for "other urgent needs". What happened to the gas tax money that is supposed to pay for road maintenance?

They spent it on roads.



Hard answer: Find a way to work with the funds you already appropriate.
Easy answer: Just fleece the sheeple even more.

They are, that is why there are potholes.

plus many many more.

I am going to have to call BS on cars not doing damage. I live along road that gets almost NO truck traffic, and potholes form all the time, and the road didn't magically appear there all by itself either - it had to be built which isn't free. But anyhow, it doesn't matter as trucks have to renew their tags as well so charge them also. Sooner or later we have to start paying what things cost. We have kicked the can about as far down the road as we can kick it (how far in advance did Devon pre-pay on P180, 20 years?)
If cars alone are damaging roads to that extent then maybe the contractors or road standards need to be looked at because most personal vehicles by themselves to not have that kind of effect on a properly constructed road. The right lane of I-35 between Austin and DFW in the asphalt paved sections can be awfully rutted, having taken that road for four months while working in DFW and living in Austin I can tell you on very early Monday mornings it is wall-to-wall semis heading north, probably 40:1 semi to POV traffic. Any mileage based tax rooted in vehicle damage to roads would devastate the trucking industry and devastate the economy. We couldn't find enough cheaply produced overseas products to make up the difference in cost of living. Sure it would make some locally produced products more reasonable but then the overall cost of living would be so high it would have to completely restructure the overall economy of the country to a point that I think is not realistically feasible.

Basically what you are wanting to do with a mileage based tax is social engineering, the same type of social engineering you used to rant about.

Social engineering now means paying for what you use instead of asking others to pay for it? We live in weird times. Maybe we just don't need 3,000 mile caesar salads.

Maybe it's the economy, and once things pick up everyone will hop back in the Chevrolet to see the USA. Or perhaps we've finally hit "peak car" and are going to try something different now. Whichever it is, after a three-year plateau following a peak in 2005, "vehicle miles traveled" started a long decline. It's now at about the level it was in February, 1995.

People Are Sick of Driving - Sierra Daily (http://sierraclub.typepad.com/sierradaily/2013/01/people-are-sick-of-driving.html)

I think the recent economic problems opened a lot eyes about where our personal and government spending is taking place. The average cost of a new car is $30,748 and has to be replaced every 5 to 7 years. That doesn't count the cost of maintenance, fuel, insurance, or heaven forbid, a family needs 2 cars. Many people are deciding they would rather spend that $30,000 (or $60,000 if you own two) on something else.

Saw this today and it fits right in with the changes in transprtation trends. In only one city in America can the average income buy the average priced car.

New Cars Increasingly Out of Reach for Many Americans - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/cars-increasingly-reach-many-americans-145957880.html)


Looking to buy a new car, truck or crossover? You may find it more difficult to stretch the household budget than you expected, according to a new study that finds median-income families in only one major U.S. city actually can afford the typical new vehicle.

...

According to the 2013 Car Affordability Study by Interest.com, only in Washington could the typical household swing the payments, the median income there running $86,680 a year. At the other extreme, Tampa, Fla., was at the bottom of the 25 large cities included in the study, with a median household income of $43,832.

...

Bottom line? A buyer in the capital can purchase a car with a sticker price of $31,940, slightly more than the new vehicle average for the 2013 model year and about what it would cost for a mid-range Ford Fusion sedan or a stripped-down BMW X1 crossover. The buyer in Tampa? They'll just barely cover the cost of a basic Kia Rio, with $14,516 to spend.

Cities that are built for the car but have residents who can't afford new cars is not a good combination - and that is all the cities except one.

Saw this today and it fits right in with the changes in transprtation trends. In only one city in America can the average income buy the average priced car.

New Cars Increasingly Out of Reach for Many Americans - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/cars-increasingly-reach-many-americans-145957880.html)



Cities that are built for the car but have residents who can't afford new cars is not a good combination - and that is all the cities except one.

the "averaged" priced car is skewed pretty high buy the lux category

the "averaged" priced car is skewed pretty high buy the lux category

Maybe so but that doesn't change the fact that the average household income in Tampa can afford a Kia Rio and since Tampa has the same per capita income as OKC that means the average person in OKC can only afford a Kia Rio as well.

Maybe so but that doesn't change the fact that the average household income in Tampa can afford a Kia Rio and since Tampa has the same per capita income as OKC that means the average person in OKC can only afford a Kia Rio as well.

income has to be paired with cost of living to have any relevance

Well, here is the list of the 25 cities in the study so you can pick the one that is comparable to OKC.

2013 Car Affordability Study | Interest.com (http://www.interest.com/auto/news/car-affordability-study/)

Well, here is the list of the 25 cities in the study so you can pick the one that is comparable to OKC.

2013 Car Affordability Study | Interest.com (http://www.interest.com/auto/news/car-affordability-study/)

Interesting (no pun intended) that the article chooses to use separate measures of central tendency. Average new car price. Median income.

It probably lends credence to Boulder's assertion of skewed average car prices.

Well then take it for what it is worth. If you want to discredit the study because you think a few high-end luxury cars or median incomes vs. average incomes are skewing the data so much that it results in only one city having an income that can buy the average selling price of a car then more power to you. You can do the study yourself if you want.

Take the average OKC family income and calulate what 10% of their gross income is.
Divide that by 12 to determine what they can afford for a monthly payment
Go to a loan caluclator and see how much you can borrow at that monthly rate for 4 years (and you can pick the interest rate).
Then find out what kind of car cost that much.

I did it for OKC.

OKC median household income: $47,023 - I had to use median because I couldn't find average houshold income
10% of that is $4,702.30
per month is $391.86
At 3.99% interest for 48 months is a loan of $17,349
Add in the 20% down payment for a total car price of $20,818.80

That means half the families in OKC can afford a car more expensive and half can afford a car less expensive. Mind you that is just one car for the family. If they need 2 cars they can only afford a $10,414.40 car. Of course, the 20/4/10 rule is just a rule and lots of people do extend the payment past 4 years which has now led to 25% of all trade-ins having negative equity (but who's counting).

So what kind of car can you get for $20,818.80?

It will get you base model Dodge Avenger or a mid-level Ford Focus, but be careful on the options.

Just curious JTF, do you own a car? If so, why?

Yes I own a car - in fact, 2 of them. Why? Because I bought a house that requires each adult to own a car. Now fortunately for me I have been able to change my lifestyle so that I only drive 2 or 3 times a week, but I still have to drive. So why did I buy a house that requires every person over 18 to own a car? Because 10 years ago when I bought it I didn't know any better. I was just a sheep following what everyone else was doing.

I did it for OKC.

OKC median household income: $47,023 - I had to use median because I couldn't find average houshold income
10% of that is $4,702.30
per month is $391.86
At 3.99% interest for 48 months is a loan of $17,349
Add in the 20% down payment for a total car price of $20,818.80

That means half the families in OKC can afford a car more expensive and half can afford a car less expensive. Mind you that is just one car for the family. If they need 2 cars they can only afford a $10,414.40 car. Of course, the 20/4/10 rule is just a rule and lots of people do extend the payment past 4 years which has now led to 25% of all trade-ins having negative equity (but who's counting).

So what kind of car can you get for $20,818.80?

It will get you base model Dodge Avenger or a mid-level Ford Focus, but be careful on the options.

Of course this scenario is that a household is buying a brand new car every 4 years, and that presumably that vehicle has only 20% of its original equity at the end of that period.

I'm nearly 50 and have only purchased 2 new vehicles in my entire life. There are plenty of decent vehicles that can be purchased for nearly $21k, ones that should provide well past 4 years of service to the new owners.

I think the jist of story is that the market for new car buyers is being restricted to the upper income groups. That is leaving an increasing number of people out of the new car market. Obviously 99% of OKC population has a car because the city requires it so the used car market is picking up the slack. However, more and more people are deciding that having a car (new or used) is costing them a lot of money that they could be spending on other items, or saving. As gas prices continue to climb it is really hitting home for more and more people.

Just for comparison, only 5% of the people can afford the average new home price.

This is cool. NYC set to launch largest bike-sharing program in the US | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/27/nyc-set-to-launch-largest-bike-sharing-program-in-us/?test=latestnews)

Now this is freakin' cool. A tube transport system that could travel up to 4,000 MPH and get from NYC to LA in 45mins!!!!!!!!!

Futuristic High-Speed Tube Travel Could Take You From New York to Los Angeles in 45 Minutes (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/trending-now/futuristic-high-speed-tube-travel-could-york-los-171007828.html?.tsrc=_start)

I vote for this instead. It would be much faster.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v71Epv4g6jY

As long as all the parts of your body ended up in the same place you did, and attached lol

As long as all the parts of your body ended up in the same place you did, and attached lol

You mean sorta like this>


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S3mPvu7Cfc

10 states are now looking to tax electric and alternative-fuel vehicles to make up for the reduction in transportation taxes they avoid paying by not using gasoline.


North Carolina is joining a growing number of states exploring new fees for hybrid and electric car owners to help make up for revenue those drivers aren’t paying in gas taxes on their fuel-efficient vehicles.

...

But those revenues haven’t kept up with rising construction costs, falling 41 percent in real value at the federal level since they were last increased 18 years ago, according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy. The same non-partisan research group estimates that state and local gas-tax revenue fell 7 percent to $38 billion between 2004 and 2010.

...

Plug In America supports a vehicle-miles tax, and Friedland said his organization swayed Washington lawmakers to include a study of that policy in the state’s own bill targeting alternative-fuel vehicles.

“Fundamentally, the mechanism exists (for charging a miles-traveled tax), but I don’t know of any states that are currently doing that yet,” he said. “We’re really on the edge of this, because we’re for once actually watching fuel consumption going down, and that’s why we’re watching these taxes come up.”

Berry Jenkins of the Carolinas Association of General Contractors said bigger reforms are ultimately needed to address infrastructure in the long term. He’s part of a coalition of businesses and regional transit groups that endorses miles-traveled taxes. The problem, he said, are concerns that they system would require intrusive new technologies and that fuels apprehension among political leaders.


I still don't see why paying a mileage tax is being made out to be so darn complicated. Every car in US has to get a tag renewal done every year. Just report the mileage at the time of renewal and pay the tax. If you don't want to pay the tax all at once setup a monthly payment based on the previous years usage and then at renewal time either get a credit back or pay the overage - then reset the monthly payment based on the new annual total. If you sell a car (or trade it) the mileage gets reported to the state and you pay the amount driven before you sold the car. How hard is that? No tracking devices needed (well there is but it is already installed on every car since 1910 - the odometer).

New York Gets Citi Bike - In Photos: 10 Cities Where Bicycles Rule The Streets - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emeh45ldig/new-york-gets-citi-bike-19/?utm_campaign=forbesfbsf&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social)

How America's love for cars is changing | News OK (http://newsok.com/how-americas-love-for-cars-is-changing/article/4882789)

Posted this in the Uber thread, but thought it was also an appropriate discussion for this thread as well.

If You Drive Fewer Than 9,480 Miles Per Year, It's Cheaper To Take An Uber Everywhere Than To Own A Car

Read more: Is Uber Cheaper Than Owning A Car? - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/is-uber-cheaper-than-owning-a-car-2014-9#ixzz3ERvcxISt)

Honestly, if I didn't have a company car and require it for business errand I would do just that, combined with my already-regular, year-'round motorcycle/scooter (and hopefully soon, bicycle) rides to and from work. My car is nearly three years old and has barely 20K on it, and I've driven just 3K since the first of May.

Honestly, if I didn't have a company car and require it for business errand I would do just that, combined with my already-regular, year-'round motorcycle/scooter (and hopefully soon, bicycle) rides to and from work. My car is nearly three years old and has barely 20K on it, and I've driven just 3K since the first of May.

If I didn't have little kids I'd ditch an auto as well and use Uber or TimeCar. But taking car seats in and out is a MAJOR PIA.

Really interesting, and nice to see a formula. If it weren't for the fact that my car is 15 years old, and there's nothing left to depreciate, and my employer pays for my parking whether I use it or not, there's not a scenario where Uber saves me money. But when the time comes to put my car out of its misery, I'll have to remember this.