Have they done any use projections?

Have they done any use projections?

A couple years ago they sent out surveys to about 1,000 plus citizens of moore and asked them what they would like to see with parks and rec in moore. The top of the survey that most people wanted was A new community center, pool, walking trails, dog park and a couple others, the city posted the survey results of it on their site a couple months after the survey went out.

Plus many citizen input meetings with very good attendance. Permanent farm market and all other uses were important.

...but no estimates yet on how many people they expect to use it?

I don't recall from the study but based on current use of similar facilities I'd guess it will be widely used.

Moore continues to be an under served market in many respects. Always surprises people.

I don't recall from the study but based on current use of similar facilities I'd guess it will be widely used.

Moore continues to be an under served market in many respects. Always surprises people.

we go to earlywine park a lot and my children took multiple swimming lessons there this past summer. About one out of every 3 kids at that lesson came from moore and a lot of us parents or gaurdians from moore agreed that moore needs a community swimming pool and large community center that will offer multiple uses. Just go to earlywine and the YMCA at that location and ask how many are from moore! you would be suprised how many travel to earlywine that are from our city just to use what all earlywine offers (large walking trail, pools, small waterpark, Gym etc)

It's amazing how negative people are sometimes. I know multiple people in Moore who are glad that this is happening. I think it is a very nice addition to Moore. As I am an advocate for cars, commenting on the walkability part of it would be bias for me, so I won't. Regarding the water park. If it is closed 4 months out of the year, that means it will be open 8 months out of the year.

I'm a little beside myself over all of the negative reactions of this passing too, ranging from those disagreeing with how the money is spent (I have a feeling they weren't in attendance at any of the plethora of meetings the City has been having over this) to those still upset that gas isn't $.50 a gallon any more. It's my opinion that the majority of those experiencing catastrophic fallout over this passing either don't live in Moore and are arguing 'just because' or they never attend any public functions within the city at the community center, downtown, and/or never visit the city/ball parks, nor do they have any intentions of doing so in the future. If they did and were aware of how busy the parks are, their conditions, lack of parking and amenities, etc. they'd probably feel a lot differently about this. To add onto that, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a significant percentage of people for both propositions don't currently make use of any of these facilities but perhaps intend to in the future. Or maybe they just believe that this is wise investment in Moore's future and feel the cost is worth the gain. At any rate I hope those doing the complaining had a vote (lives in Moore) and actually went and voted.

I'm a little beside myself over all of the negative reactions of this passing too, ranging from those disagreeing with how the money is spent (I have a feeling they weren't in attendance at any of the plethora of meetings the City has been having over this) to those still upset that gas isn't $.50 a gallon any more. It's my opinion that the majority of those experiencing catastrophic fallout over this passing either don't live in Moore and are arguing 'just because' or they never attend any public functions within the city at the community center, downtown, and/or never visit the city/ball parks, nor do they have any intentions of doing so in the future. If they did and were aware of how busy the parks are, their conditions, lack of parking and amenities, etc. they'd probably feel a lot differently about this. To add onto that, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a significant percentage of people for both propositions don't currently make use of any of these facilities but perhaps intend to in the future. Or maybe they just believe that this is wise investment in Moore's future and feel the cost is worth the gain. At any rate I hope those doing the complaining had a vote (lives in Moore) and actually went and voted.

well said billie

I am glad that it passed, it is sorely needed, it is going to look great! Where will it be exactly in Moore?

It begins at SW 4th Street and Broadway (east side) and extends south nearly to SW 19th.

It really is pretty centrally located being at Broadway and only 4 blocks south of Main. Moore is really trying hard to help revitalize the central area of Moore.

Moore is only about 5 miles square so rather small.

It begins at SW 4th Street and Broadway (east side) and extends south nearly to SW 19th.

It really is pretty centrally located being at Broadway and only 4 blocks south of Main. Moore is really trying hard to help revitalize the central area of Moore.

Moore is only about 5 miles square so rather small.

Thank you!

It begins at SW 4th Street and Broadway (east side) and extends south nearly to SW 19th.

It really is pretty centrally located being at Broadway and only 4 blocks south of Main. Moore is really trying hard to help revitalize the central area of Moore.

Moore is only about 5 miles square so rather small.

Per the City of Moore website, Moore takes up about 22 sq miles

Per the City of Moore website, Moore takes up about 22 sq miles

He was probably thinking square miles as 5 miles wide 5 miles long.

As a citizen of Moore for more than 25 years, I've seen the improvements the City has made to infrastructure, emergency services, and beautification; all are worthy expenditures . Seems like I've watched this City "grow up" since I've been here. Having said that, I didn't support the two propositions for park improvements and the addition of the new central park. It amazes me that something like this would pass in this current economic environment. Can't the City do something like this over a longer period of time without raising taxes? Make it a 10-year project with several phases and pay as you go? Anyway..... it's a done deal now. But..... everyone reading this needs to know that the "temporary" ¼-cent sales tax will never end. Yes.... it will require anoter vote of the good citizens of Moore to extend it; at that time the City leaders will have another "worthy" project to fund. The City, with it's ability for mass mailings to all citizens, will convince the majority of you to vote for the extension. Those opposed wont have a chance. Well....ya can't fight City Hall.

So.... soon we'll have some Park improvements and a new Central Park. There'll be a big ceremony when it's finished and all the City leaders will get their names put on a big plaque mounted on one of the new buildings at Central Park, touting their vision for our community. While quietly, 90% of the citizens of Moore who never set foot in the Park get to pay for it.

It is sad that you feel so victimized and powerless.

Moore invites greater participation and actually listens and reacts to Citizen input greater than any other place I've ever been.

Officials are out and about in the City and are all tremendously approachable.

I know there has been a lot of growth and change in a short time. At the Dick's opening the other day the Mayor mentioned it had been only 6 years since a citizen could buy a 2x4 in Moore.

Yes, by all means, don't pay for a park. Parks are horrible things.

I do not understand all the whining about a 1/4 cent sales tax.

While quietly, 90% of the citizens of Moore who never set foot in the Park get to pay for it.

If those citizens choose not to go to the new park, isn't that kinda of their fault? or is there restrictions as to who can use the park that were not made publicly available? If you choose not to use the services and amenities that your tax dollars pay for, how is that anyones fault but your own?

To flintysooner: victimized and powerless? C'mon, don't put words in my mouth and I wont put words in yours. Re-read my post. I praised City leaders for the improvements they've made in the past. A citizen of Moore can disagree with decisions made by the City Council without being branded anti-Moore. I like this community; that's why I choose to live here. I live in Ward 3 and have known my city councilman for many years. (I've bought insurance from him for more than 20 years) And yes......he's a very approachable and likeable person. But that doesn't mean I can't disagree with him with him on occasion.

To onlyone: Again.... re-read my post. I'm not anti-park. I am opposed to raising taxes in one of the worst economic environments in decades. If you think it's just a ¼-cent sales tax increase, you are mis-informed. Re-read the proposals.

To jedicurt: Parks are not critical City services. Police. Fire. Ambulance. Water. Sewer. Roads. These are critical City services and may be worth an increase in taxes if necessary.

You all seem like reasonable people. Someone here can have an opposing view without being branded a "victim" or "powerless". I like parks but, as a non-critical City service, they shouldn't be funded by a tax increase; at least not in the current economic environment.

As my friends and neighbors, I hope you all have a good day.

Well said sharpshooter. I was in favor of both proposals and voted accordingly, but I think you expressed your opinion against the proposals in a well stated manner without being overly negative. Much better than some of the people who don't live in Moore (or even Oklahoma) and have no skin in the game just coming on here and bashing Moore consistently.

As a citizen of Moore for more than 25 years, I've seen the improvements the City has made to infrastructure, emergency services, and beautification; all are worthy expenditures . Seems like I've watched this City "grow up" since I've been here. Having said that, I didn't support the two propositions for park improvements and the addition of the new central park. It amazes me that something like this would pass in this current economic environment. Can't the City do something like this over a longer period of time without raising taxes? Make it a 10-year project with several phases and pay as you go? Anyway..... it's a done deal now. But..... everyone reading this needs to know that the "temporary" ¼-cent sales tax will never end. Yes.... it will require anoter vote of the good citizens of Moore to extend it; at that time the City leaders will have another "worthy" project to fund. The City, with it's ability for mass mailings to all citizens, will convince the majority of you to vote for the extension. Those opposed wont have a chance. Well....ya can't fight City Hall.

So.... soon we'll have some Park improvements and a new Central Park. There'll be a big ceremony when it's finished and all the City leaders will get their names put on a big plaque mounted on one of the new buildings at Central Park, touting their vision for our community. While quietly, 90% of the citizens of Moore who never set foot in the Park get to pay for it.

If this is indeed true, why didn't the so quoted 90% get out and vote no

To flintysooner: victimized and powerless? C'mon, don't put words in my mouth and I wont put words in yours. Re-read my post. I praised City leaders for the improvements they've made in the past. A citizen of Moore can disagree with decisions made by the City Council without being branded anti-Moore.

But it wasn't the City Council that made the decision. There were meetings upon meetings and surveys and the larger parks plan arose from that input. Finally the plans as well as their funding were put on the ballot. And citizens again voted favorably on those same measures.

You make it sound in your original post that this was something that originated at the Council and was forced upon the citizens.

It just doesn't seem to have happened that way to me.

I have no disagreement with those who felt either projects were wrong or who disagreed with the funding mechanisms. I certainly meant no disrespect to you or your position regarding the merits.

It just seemed to me that you were blaming the City leaders.

I try not to get involved in such disputes though so please accept my apology for misrepresenting your feelings.

I would be willing to agree that 90% of Moore residents will go to this park less than 1 time per year (statistically equal to 'never use it'). But just because you don't plan to use it is not a reason to vote against it.

To jedicurt: Parks are not critical City services. Police. Fire. Ambulance. Water. Sewer. Roads. These are critical City services and may be worth an increase in taxes if necessary.

I also would like to know more about your position on parks being non-critical.

And hope i didn't come off as just being argumentative. I used to not use the parks in norman or the bus service or anything else until just recently. and the conclusion that led me to start was the idea of "Well i'm paying for it, might as well use it"

I find your position that parks are non-critical interesting. Would love to hear more about that position.

I assume you would consider public safety critical? Anything else?

As I stated in an earlier post: Parks are not critical City services. Police. Fire. Ambulance. Water. Sewer. Roads. These are critical City services. I use the term "critical" because I believe these are "City provided" services that we all must have. Possibly could have added trash service and civil defense sirens to the list. Try and imagine doing without any of these services. Parks are a nice thing to have but not critical; they are optional. Parks improve the quality of life in Moore just like a good library. But critical? No.

To rcjunkie: The 90% figure I came up with was just a guess of course. BTW = 36% (prop 1) and 42% (prop 2) of the voters did vote NO on Tuesday's propositions respectively. Another guess on my part is I blame part of these results on an ill-informed electorate. Ask yourself this: If a represenative from the City Of Moore came to you a year ago and said we want to make some park improvements and build a new park and showed you the plans and then said I'll need a check from you for $1000. Would that make any difference on your decision to support the proposals? Maybe it wouldn't make any difference and that's fine if you believe they are worth that to you. The $1000 is a conservative estimate on what it will cost me over the next five years. The proposals are presented to the public with a spoon full of sugar; it helps the medicine go down.

To flintysooner: Apology accepted but not necessary. We're just neighbors discussing current events across the table at a coffee shop. Again, I like the ideas in the proposals. I do think they could be done incrementally over a longer period of time without raising taxes.

Yessir and one of the things I love about Moore is that most all of us really do think of ourselves as neighbors. Whether we agree or not.

A lot of commotion over an extra 10 bucks a month

As I stated in an earlier post: Parks are not critical City services. Police. Fire. Ambulance. Water. Sewer. Roads. These are critical City services. I use the term "critical" because I believe these are "City provided" services that we all must have. Possibly could have added trash service and civil defense sirens to the list. Try and imagine doing without any of these services. Parks are a nice thing to have but not critical; they are optional. Parks improve the quality of life in Moore just like a good library. But critical? No.

So trash service and sirens are also optional maybe kinda sorta?? Gee okay. Remind me what Moore is best known for (I graduated WHS 'Class of 2008 so I can say that)

The point is that you're right, those are your basic services. They are essential, but won't create a place people actually want to live. Nobody moves to Edmond because they have really nice sewage and fire trucks, but rather because Edmond is an attractive city with excellent amenities, a great downtown area, and beautiful neighborhoods.

Moore is swimming in more cash than any other Oklahoma city and can afford to create a place where people want to live, but it chooses not to. That is sad. That is also why the rest of the metro has and always will kind of look down on Moore as the white trash "Home of Toby Keith."

Loud and proud baby.

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/bf/e9/bfe9000d9e1895e0915de74fd1755ff9.jpg

Loud and proud baby.

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/bf/e9/bfe9000d9e1895e0915de74fd1755ff9.jpg

wish they could put HOME OF JESSE JANE on that tower maybe we would get more Looks :)

Toby sends someone to Moore to pick up his Steak Sandwich's from Del Rancho. For that he gets his name on a water tank. Cool.

Toby sends someone to Moore to pick up his Steak Sandwich's from Del Rancho. For that he gets his name on a water tank. Cool.

It's because he lived there for several years and graduated from Moore High. He now lives in Norman, which by the way has a Del Rancho ( not the anyone would admit to eating at Del Rancho).

what's wrong with Del Rancho?

what's wrong with Del Rancho?

Not a thing. I love the steak sandwich supreme!

... which by the way has a Del Rancho ( not the anyone would admit to eating at Del Rancho).

I'll have to prove you wrong. I admit that I eat at Del Rancho. Not very often but I do eat there.

( not the anyone would admit to eating at Del Rancho).

Hey!! Del Rancho is an occasional guilty pleasure. What's wrong with a steak sandwich supreme every couple of months?? :)

Hey!! Del Rancho is an occasional guilty pleasure. What's wrong with a steak sandwich supreme every couple of months?? :)

Exactly! And add cheese on mine as long as I'm splurging. ;)

Maybe everyone could be pacified if they put a smiley face with one of those scrunched-up, black "cowboy" hats under the text. (p.s. i like toby keith's music. his namesake restaurants? . . . meh. del rancho is better. IMHO.)

Hey!! Del Rancho is an occasional guilty pleasure. What's wrong with a steak sandwich supreme every couple of months?? :)

Nothing if your ok with a little meat with your breading.

Nothing if your ok with a little meat with your breading.

You must be living wrong... The ones I get from the Moore location have a good breading to meat ratio.

It's because he lived there for several years and graduated from Moore High. He now lives in Norman, which by the way has a Del Rancho ( not the anyone would admit to eating at Del Rancho).

Yep. He sure did live here at one time; no doubt about that. And yes..... he graduated from Moore High School. But so have thousands of others. I know he lives in Norman. I've rode my motorcycle by his house on many occasions while heading to Lake Dirtybird. I guess the point I'm trying to make is this: Has he done anything for Moore since making it to the big leagues? Maybe he has and I don't know about it. Maybe someone can set me straight on that. Has he done anything to make Moore a better place since leaving? Donated any time or put forth any effort to benefit his so-called hometown? Maybe he's mentioned Moore in one of his songs or maybe he speaks about Moore in a way that sheds some positive light on our community?

I mentioned Del Rancho in my earlier post because I read an article in a magazine a few years ago and the only mention Toby makes of Moore is about getting his steak sandwiches from the Moore Del Rancho. It's absurd that the City wants to put his name on one of our water tanks IMO. But then, I think Jesseda already made that point when she mentioned putting Jesse Jane's name on one of our water towers.

I've got nothing against Mr. Toby Covel. Just don't think he warrants getting his name on one of our water tanks.

Out of all the days I found this on Moore's website

http://www.cityofmoore.com/sites/default/files/images/content/Parmele%20Park_Concept%20Plan_1-60-2.jpg


It will include the following features:

Playground
Walking trail
Pavilion
Permanent restroom
Sprayground
Landscaping

http://www.cityofmoore.com/parmele-park-taking-shape

Not sure if this is the new park or not. Either way, this thing is huge

"On Monday night, designers unveiled plans for a new park. The future focal point for the city would stretch six blocks along Broadway Street, turning 80 acres of fields into much more.

The park design includes attractions for all types, including a water park, splash pads, pond, handicap-accessible play areas, trails, gardens, and a new community center.

“This is very special, just across the street is one of the worst hit tornado areas in the state and this is going to be an extremely nice addition,” said Moore Mayor Glenn Lewis. “It will be completed by the time all the houses are back, so we’re very excited about all of these options.”



Read more: Moore unveils plan for new park - Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/news/oklahomanews/moore-unveils-plan-for-new-park/-/9844008/21239270/-/4xu3nnz/-/index.html)

Central Moore Park Long Range Plan | City of Moore (http://www.cityofmoore.com/central-moore-park-long-range-plan)

This is going to be an awesome park and great for Moore! I just wish they would take all of the parking and build structured parking or do something unique like build a hill and make a mountain biking course/free roam with a parking garage underneath. THAT WOULD BE COOL!!!!

http://www.cityofmoore.com/sites/default/files/main-site/Project_list-GO_Bond.pdf

(Car) park.

Yep, that's pretty terrible.

More parking spaces than trees? How can you even call this a park with a straight face?

ROFLMAO! But hey, when you build in a manner that requires everyone to drive you need a place for them to park. What a waste. Ball ---- dropped.

Odd this thread should become active, again. I was just thinking about this topic today. All of these are valid points, but they aren't anything new -- which tells me that either recent commenters haven't read through the entire thread or have forgotten. For me, this thread should end at post #43 (my retroactive nomination is herewith submitted for 2012 post of the year) and post #43 should end in "#drops mic", but the author is too modest to say that, I'll bet. Here's the best post of 2012, for those of you who don't wish to seek it out.


I actually LOVE what you started off saying here. I totally agree. The solution isn't huge grand projects, one at a time. It is proper use of the grid in Moore, one block at a time. Which is precisely why I would try to develop this land as follows:

1) Add trees staggered with bollard lighting along the west side of Broadway along the current sidewalk (4th-19th)
This will provide a nicer N/S walking experience for those walking into the park toward one of the several "collector" cross walks on Broadway. Also, people enjoy walking beside green spaces without actually having to enter them. This allows people to just peer in and feel included in the beauty of them. Many people will enjoy the new look of everything on the East side of Broadway but not everyone will want to cross Broadway just to use the trail.

2) Install good crosswalks all along Broadway from 4th to 19th. Signals aren't required. Zebra stripping does wonders to slow traffic down and make them aware of potentially crossing pedestrians. Especially contemporary versions like this (http://www.tcgmn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Ergo-Crosswalk-Project-Makes-Case-For-Altering-Zebra-Stripes-To-Minimize-Road-Accidents-2-500x306.jpg), which actually allows pedestrians to "time" their crossing based on traffic more easily and get safely on across the curb cut quicker. If traffic speeds are an issue here, especially during low-light times of the day, flashing bollards might be as sufficient solution.

3) Add streetside parking on the east side of Broadway from 4th to 19th.

4) Duplicate trees and lighting on east side of Broadway " "

5) Add 12' sidewalks along Broadway from 4th to 19th on the east side of Broadway

6) Plat land along the south side of 4th and then south along Broadways (east side) to Howard. We'd form-based zone this to achieve something along the lines of this (http://www.clarkecatonhintz.com/work/index.php?menu=1&submenu=1§ion=Architecture&category=Affordable+%26+Senior+Housing&pid=04f29a2b47d4fc). An "L" Shaped development that will frame any future park space to the south and not waste really valuable commercial frontage.

7) Plat along Broadway between Howard & 14th for the same reason.

7a) I'd even want to get input from neighbors to see if they would like to see a few batches of townhomes along Broadway to help break up the length of the park and to add more context to it all. They wouldn't need to be deeper than 50' (see the 4th Street Lofts in Deep Deuce, OKC for an example (https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=35.470949,-97.509898&spn=0.00086,0.001321&t=h&z=20)) This would further use up space along Broadway without destroying the ability for the park to exist and adequately serve the whole neighborhood. It would also generate revenue for the purchase and maintenance of the park. If this did occur, I'd extend the streets across Broadway but they could remain pedestrian only east of Broadway. A narrow "way", if you will, flanked briefly by the new housing along Broadway. Ground floor commercial could also be considered to provide a few amenities to those living in the neighborhood to the west. The new parking along Broadway helps those who don't live nearby still get to these amenities. On the east side (balcony side), there could even be a small corner shop or two that looked out into the park. A charming coffee shop perhaps?

8) Narrow, pedestrian, cycle oriented walkway on the east side of the new development that spans the entire distance from 4th to 19th would be tree lined and would give a buffer the new development and function as the west leg of the new "trail".

Notice we haven't built a park yet. But what we have done is create an incredibly logical and sustainable place for one. Also, a place that people will love to walk to and will be dying to live next to...even before park has been built. If you asked anyone what they would like to see done with this property at this point in the development, they would tell you, a park. Also, how much of the $26M do you think we have spent so far? And we have only used a fraction of the original land.

9) The trail construction would continue around the rest of the property. A typical 12' walkway (trail as we like to call them in the US) tree lined on both sides, with bollard lighting. The kind of place that would be the home to many serious family talks, lighthearted chatting, and plenty of room for exercise.

10) On the east side of the property, a wall would be built to shield the park from the train line.

11) Remaining monies would spent to add two main "play areas". Both with different age appeal. I'd also add one main courtyard in the center with a major piece of artwork. Plenty of seating here and throughout the park among the trees.

12) Future improvements could include a pedestrian bridge over the rail line (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jag9889/4589284491/) that would connect hundreds more homes to the park. In fact, two bridges could be constructed and similar type of park space could be added on the east side of the rail line which would dramatically increase the size of the park.

Major future conceptual options could include adding a large body of water or fountain. I'd really like to render something up or spend more time to talk about all the little details that could go into making this park a cherished (and sustainable) asset for the community of Moore for generations to come but I'm actually first more interested in hearing thoughts on this type of approach.

I'm not sure what your point is. We all agree that what Sid suggested is all great stuff.

My reaction is based solely on the rendering in the PDF linked above. A rendering that shows more parking lots than anything else.

Yeah.... It's terrible that Moore is building a place for it's citizens to go for recreation... Absolutely terrible!

I know I'll just hate it every time I go over there to safely ride my bike on the trails, shoot some hoops, or buy some fresh vegetables for my dinner table.

I'm not sure what your point is. We all agree that what Sid suggested is all great stuff.

My reaction is based solely on the rendering in the PDF linked above. A rendering that shows more parking lots than anything else.

My apologies, I had no intent to stifle conversation. FWIW, the link in the first post has four pictures (including the one in the PDF link) ... that also show nice parking lots. sigh

Yeah.... It's terrible that Moore is building a place for it's citizens to go for recreation... Absolutely terrible!

I know I'll just hate it every time I go over there to safely ride my bike on the trails, shoot some hoops, or buy some fresh vegetables for my dinner table.

Just think about how much more activities you could do if there wasn't so much asphalt in the way :)

Eh, I think it is ok. There is a bit too much parking. If I were building it, i would've built a 5 story parking garage with 200-400 spaces and had 2 of the levels underground. I also would've had one level for retail, but overall, it would be 3 stories high.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/981056_10202085312886874_1883908764_o.jpg

Just think about how much more activities you could do if there wasn't so much asphalt in the way :)



You realize Moore is the suburbs? People close to the park will walk or ride a bike over there. The rest of us drive and will need parking.

The farmers market will also draw people from outside Moore. Those people will drive and need a place to park.

If this was the OKC central park I would have no disagreement with any of you but it's not. This will be a nice park that will serve those both near and far from it.

Not defending anything, but the park goes from 4th all the way to almost 19th, so I'm sure there's more to it than that strip shown in that diagram.

Incidentally the park at 5th and Telephone has a high amount of parking for its size...

You realize Moore is the suburbs? People close to the park will walk or ride a bike over there. The rest of us drive and will need parking.

The farmers market will also draw people from outside Moore. Those people will drive and need a place to park.

If this was the OKC central park I would have no disagreement with any of you but it's not. This will be a nice park that will serve those both near and far from it.If anything isn't pushed right up against the street with no surface parking lots, it will be attacked. Their argument is, "oh, there is a difference between bad suburbia and good suburbia". The bad suburbia is suburbs that are suburbs and the good is suburbs that are turned into urban environments. It's all a front to urbanize everything.

Again, I like this park and think it will do fairly well. Like I said, I would consolidate most of the parking into a structured garage, but other than that it is great.

Not defending anything, but the park goes from 4th all the way to almost 19th, so I'm sure there's more to it than that strip shown in that diagram.

Incidentally the park at 5th and Telephone has a high amount of parking for its size...I kind thought that might be the case.

Not defending anything, but the park goes from 4th all the way to almost 19th, so I'm sure there's more to it than that strip shown in that diagram.

There are lots of pictures that show lots more park.