Cheap faux stucco.

The nicest I had ever heard it described. Completely accurate, but there's usually a few more less flattering adjectives used.
:)

The RFP also said that they hope to have the garage complete by Spring of 2014, at which time the prevailing developer would be expected to start construction on the living units.

Also said the units could be for sale rather than for lease -- developers option.

And the use of EIFS is completely prohibited.

Hmmm. Interesting...

Also said the units could be for sale rather than for lease -- developers option.


great... this may be the option i'm looking for. I have always felt that people seem to keep things up a bit better if they actually purchase it rather than lease. (this could just be my observations and no where near reality). I will be very interested in how this project goes

Unfortunately, I would be very surprised if they get any responses for condos versus apartments.

For the time being, it's way easier to get rental units financed.


Should be interesting to see who proposes what.

I don't know...the market may be coming around on for-sale

Yeah, but Pete is right: financing for condos is still a nightmare unless there is already an established sales track....

Commercial financing is famous for being behind the curve: they only want to finance what has already been working.

For the longest time they were funding retail properties and of course now there is a glut with tons of vacancy. Right now, it's apartments and hotels and you can bet they'll keep green-lighting those projects until there are way over-built. Only then will they switch to condos and office buildings, and will ride those horses until those segments are completely saturated.

Then the cycle will start all over again.

That's one of the strengths of mixed-use in urban environments, as it provides stability in volatile lending markets.

It does look like they added more height, but not levels:


The rendering in the Oklahoman today:

http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r960-aa7c88c6da8f89cf63c5aa1cb611a8d2.jpg

versus what was previously sumbitted:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/garage3.jpg

I'm sure it will be fine, but the change in thickness in these floor dividers elicits some awful images in my head.

I'm sure it will be fine, but the change in thickness in these floor dividers elicits some awful images in my head.I don't get it. What do you mean?

In addition to the floor widths, one level of parking was also added since the orginal renderings came out.

I don't know...the market may be coming around on for-sale

While it is definitely coming around for for-for sale, it would be interesting to see if this type of development would scare away the obviously conservative Oklahoma buyer. The idea of buying a townhouse downtown seems to be gaining wider acceptance among many different age groups, but this is a completely different concept and location. It might be a better "rent now, sell later" concept, as people not only become used to the idea of living downtown, but living in many different types of housing downtown.

While it is definitely coming around for for-for sale, it would be interesting to see if this type of development would scare away the obviously conservative Oklahoma buyer. The idea of buying a townhouse downtown seems to be gaining wider acceptance among many different age groups, but this is a completely different concept and location. It might be a better "rent now, sell later" concept, as people not only become used to the idea of living downtown, but living in many different types of housing downtown.

So are you saying anything other than townhouse would scare buyers away?

I don't get it. What do you mean?

If you look behind the transparent facade on the building, you see inside the parking garage. If you place your mouse-arrow over the floor dividers, you'll notice it's more than half the thickness of your arrow in the original rendering, and barely any on your arrow in the updated one. Again, it will be engineered so as to keep from whole lots of cars falling through the floor onto the next level, but it just looks so flimsy compared to the first rendering.

So are you saying anything other than townhouse would scare buyers away?

It would be the opposite. Quality flats would be more saleable. Empty nesters with the money to buy and attracted to the arts district don't want stairs.

I'm saying buying a flat on top of a parking garage is a new concept for anyone in OKC. The younger you are, the more adventurous you are, but the less likely you are to have the money to buy something. And, if you've got money to spend on housing, you're older and less adventurous. The less adventurous might not like stairs (although with an elevator, stairs are not a big deal - and you can have an elevator in a townhouse if you want one) but they also might be leery of being the first to live on top of a parking garage. I'm not impressed with a spirit of adventure in housing in OKC, so I think it might be wise to have rentals first to get people used to the idea. Then, if they're wildly popular, they'll be easier to sell.

I'm saying buying a flat on top of a parking garage is a new concept for anyone in OKC. The younger you are, the more adventurous you are, but the less likely you are to have the money to buy something. And, if you've got money to spend on housing, you're older and less adventurous. The less adventurous might not like stairs (although with an elevator, stairs are not a big deal - and you can have an elevator in a townhouse if you want one) but they also might be leery of being the first to live on top of a parking garage. I'm not impressed with a spirit of adventure in housing in OKC, so I think it might be wise to have rentals first to get people used to the idea. Then, if they're wildly popular, they'll be easier to sell.

Flats on top of a parking garage give the buyer a view that is 10 floors higher than it would be otherwise.

If you look behind the transparent facade on the building, you see inside the parking garage. If you place your mouse-arrow over the floor dividers, you'll notice it's more than half the thickness of your arrow in the original rendering, and barely any on your arrow in the updated one. Again, it will be engineered so as to keep from whole lots of cars falling through the floor onto the next level, but it just looks so flimsy compared to the first rendering.I noticed that, but you think they will really make it that thin? I'm sure they make it very safe.

Flats on top of a parking garage give the buyer a view that is 10 floors higher than it would be otherwise.

Right. A view of what, for most of them? Perhaps the skydance bridge or the Midtown Plaza sign. I've got a killer view from the 4th floor of my townhouse, and that same view was available for years on all the unsold ones around me. Again, I don't think people here are used to thinking about views, even of the skyline, when they purchase, which certainly doesn't make it a primary motivating factor. I do believe that will change, but slowly, just like the current for sale housing downtown is finally being accepted as something worthy of purchase.

The views to the north will be very urban. The views to the south will be of the MBG, redevelopment, and then bam..blight..then SkyDance, still not bad. If only the site were more east-facing...

What I know for sure is that we don't really have 12-15th floor residential views, unless you can afford City Place, or are willing to slum it at the Regency. I think the views will be a pertinent factor. Could be wrong though.

The views to the north will be very urban. The views to the south will be of the MBG, redevelopment, and then bam..blight..then SkyDance, still not bad. If only the site were more east-facing...

What I know for sure is that we don't really have 12-15th floor residential views, unless you can afford City Place, or are willing to slum it at the Regency. I think the views will be a pertinent factor. Could be wrong though.

I dont see how the views wont be a big factor for potential buyers/renters. I would think the 3 main draws for this housing project is downtown location, good high up views and covered/secured parking.

I dont see how the views wont be a big factor for potential buyers/renters. I would think the 3 main draws for this housing project is downtown location, good high up views and covered/secured parking.

those are the exact 3 reasons why i am very interested if they do something here for sale... here's hoping that A) it happens, and B) it's in my price range... because if both of those things happen, i will be living here and meeting up with Sid and others for brunch occasionally and 324, as soon as they are move in ready.

Right. A view of what, for most of them? Perhaps the skydance bridge or the Midtown Plaza sign. I've got a killer view from the 4th floor of my townhouse, and that same view was available for years on all the unsold ones around me. Again, I don't think people here are used to thinking about views, even of the skyline, when they purchase, which certainly doesn't make it a primary motivating factor. I do believe that will change, but slowly, just like the current for sale housing downtown is finally being accepted as something worthy of purchase.

The view is secondary to having a functioning neighborhood. I remember when the Brownstones were built. I thought they looked fantastic. Then I found out how much they cost, and I was sad, because I am poor. But even before I knew the cost, I questioned how it would actually be to live in that area. There was nothing around. No quick trips to the store for me, I'd have to drive 20 minutes to get groceries. When I had kids, where would they go to school? What if I needed to buy a light bulb, or batteries, or my coffee pot broke? Is there a Target nearby?

I'd basically have to get into my car and drive everywhere. Only I wouldn't be dealing with Midwest City traffic, I'd be dealing with downtown traffic. There was not a functioning neighborhood for me to rely on. Great views of downtown were less important than having an easy solution to problems like "We're out of Coke. I'll run down to the store and be back in 5 minutes" or "Where is the nearest Dominos that delivers here?" Or emergency situations like "I have to take a dump and there's no toilet paper. Better go to the store fast." It was not a place I could actually imagine living in.

Now the neighborhood looks a lot further along today. If it wasn't crazy expensive I would seriously consider buying there now. It has developed to the point that I have faith it will continue to develop. I expect that within 5 years, every available piece of land in Deep Deuce will have a building on it. Old metal buildings will be torn down for new brick apartments. There will be a place to buy Cokes and toilet paper. A streetcar will go in nearby that takes you to downtown and Midtown. Now the view becomes a big selling point. I drove through there on Saturday, showing a friend of mine who now lives in Seattle how OKC has changed. She was very impressed, loved The Hill and the Brownstones. She was surprised that you could get such large houses downtown for their asking price. Thought the whole area was great. But the view doesn't become important until all the mundane stuff is taken care of first.

I view this site from afar but never post. I would like to add that all your points are correct. BUT; I'm a bachelor and I just bought a condo in Buckhead (Atlanta) for $800,000. Trust me its all about the view, height, and being modern to people like me. Its nothing personal to anybody, but just living high up and seeing everything is priceless. I wish OKC had something similar for every niche of life. In due time!

The views to the north will be very urban. The views to the south will be of the MBG, redevelopment, and then bam..blight..then SkyDance, still not bad. If only the site were more east-facing...

What I know for sure is that we don't really have 12-15th floor residential views, unless you can afford City Place, or are willing to slum it at the Regency. I think the views will be a pertinent factor. Could be wrong though.

Spartan, you're forgetting Park Harvey which is 17 floors.

Spartan, you're forgetting Park Harvey which is 17 floors.

Doesn't have parking.

The view is secondary to having a functioning neighborhood. I remember when the Brownstones were built. I thought they looked fantastic. Then I found out how much they cost, and I was sad, because I am poor. But even before I knew the cost, I questioned how it would actually be to live in that area. There was nothing around. No quick trips to the store for me, I'd have to drive 20 minutes to get groceries. When I had kids, where would they go to school? What if I needed to buy a light bulb, or batteries, or my coffee pot broke? Is there a Target nearby?

I'd basically have to get into my car and drive everywhere. Only I wouldn't be dealing with Midwest City traffic, I'd be dealing with downtown traffic. There was not a functioning neighborhood for me to rely on. Great views of downtown were less important than having an easy solution to problems like "We're out of Coke. I'll run down to the store and be back in 5 minutes" or "Where is the nearest Dominos that delivers here?" Or emergency situations like "I have to take a dump and there's no toilet paper. Better go to the store fast." It was not a place I could actually imagine living in.

Now the neighborhood looks a lot further along today. If it wasn't crazy expensive I would seriously consider buying there now. It has developed to the point that I have faith it will continue to develop. I expect that within 5 years, every available piece of land in Deep Deuce will have a building on it. Old metal buildings will be torn down for new brick apartments. There will be a place to buy Cokes and toilet paper. A streetcar will go in nearby that takes you to downtown and Midtown. Now the view becomes a big selling point. I drove through there on Saturday, showing a friend of mine who now lives in Seattle how OKC has changed. She was very impressed, loved The Hill and the Brownstones. She was surprised that you could get such large houses downtown for their asking price. Thought the whole area was great. But the view doesn't become important until all the mundane stuff is taken care of first.

FYI: Most of the things you desired exist now (with the exception of a nearby Target). Think about it: you can get your Coke, toilet paper, etc. at Homeland at NW 18 and Classen. You can get pizza delivery from Joey's Pizzeria, far better than Dominoes. As for downtown traffic - I'll take that ANY DAY over Edmond traffic. Gotta agree with you on schooling however. The charter elementary will go a long way in addressing this need, but the middle school and high school options still are not great (this, cost of housing and my wife's job is why I don't live downtown despite my love for it). I agree... things are going in the right direction.

FYI: Most of the things you desired exist now (with the exception of a nearby Target). Think about it: you can get your Coke, toilet paper, etc. at Homeland at NW 18 and Classen. You can get pizza delivery from Joey's Pizzeria, far better than Dominoes. As for downtown traffic - I'll take that ANY DAY over Edmond traffic. Gotta agree with you on schooling however. The charter elementary will go a long way in addressing this need, but the middle school and high school options still are not great (this, cost of housing and my wife's job is why I don't live downtown despite my love for it). I agree... things are going in the right direction.

The biggest surprise in living in Midtown is that I can largely manage getting the staples of life. There is a Walgreens and CVS near 23rd and Classen. There is also a neighborhood market off 23rd and Penn. Its only a slightly longer drive than what I had in the suburbs. Frankly, there are plenty of places to get toilet paper should I have a "bathroom emergency." Although I would KILL for a Chick-fil-a down here!

No doubt the neighborhoods around downtown are becoming great; at the same time people who move down here come with the knowledge they will not have big box right at their doorstep. The typical person can probably manage just fine for now.

Blame Richard Tanenbaum for chasing away a Chickfila that was in the Park Harvey building across from the courthouse for many years....

Doesn't have parking.

I understand that but your post was talking about residential views, not parking.

Blame Richard Tanenbaum for chasing away a Chickfila that was in the Park Harvey building across from the courthouse for many years....

That shocks me. I wouldn't think of downtown as their typical clientele.

That shocks me. I wouldn't think of downtown as their typical clientele.

Political and religious persuasions aside, I don't think there isn't a person who says their food isn't good.

I don't think there isn't a person who says their food isn't good.

Wow, that was an interesting phrasing -- with all the negatives. But I believe you meant to say "I don't think there IS a person who says their food isn't good."

At least, that's what I think you meant. :wink:

Wow, that was an interesting phrasing -- with all the negatives. But I believe you meant to say "I don't think there IS a person who says their food isn't good."

At least, that's what I think you meant. :wink:

I am celbrating New years tonight as well ;) yes you had it right. lol

I am celbrating New years tonight as well ;) yes you had it right. lol

Better luck this time

That shocks me. I wouldn't think of downtown as their typical clientele.

The place was PACKED every lunch.

Some of you may have known about this, but it was news to me that OCURA was also taking applications for office space atop the new garage, per this article (http://okc.biz/oklahoma/article-6622-ocura-approves-office-space-proposals-atop-downtown-garage.html) at OKC.biz.

I would personally still like to see some housing in this area as opposed to more office space, but maybe they're not expecting much success with the housing proposals.

I didn't realize they had adjusted the RFP to include office use as well as living units.

That tells me they didn't feel confident in the initial response for housing development, because this was a late change.

I didn't realize they had adjusted the RFP to include office use as well as living units.

That tells me they didn't feel confident in the initial response for housing development, because this was a late change.

Pretty much the exact same sentiments I posted about 6 minutes earlier so I imagine other posters feel the same. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't behind the curve in not knowing that office was now an option.

Pretty much the exact same sentiments I posted about 6 minutes earlier so I imagine other posters feel the same. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't behind the curve in not knowing that office was now an option.

Exactly my sentiment that I'm posting, oh now...61 minutes later so I too feel the same as you.

Maybe there is inside info or concerns about potential high rise residential development near by.

I will be very disappointed if we don't get housing on top. We need more humans downtown after 5pm and before 8am.

Be disappointed now then, cause it's probably not going to happen. I think of that highrise complex in Chicago with the parking levels taking up the first 5+ floors and, even though, I know this wouldn't be that, I don't see it happening for OKC. Maybe those in the know, know that residential is going to be going in in the immediate area so they'd rather not venture the risk against something greater. That's what I'd hope for...

I think OKCisOK4me is onto something. I suspect there are multiple residential efforts in the works very close to this project which has caused concern for the parking garage location. Oddly enough, that same fear doesn't seem to apply to the suburban residential market because those developers have no problem building thousands of houses right next to each other.

Yeah, but they know they're good because the citizens of this city--for the most part--are of that mentality that the suburbs is where it's at. Just gotta have better conveniences downtown to flip the ratio.

I doubt it will end up as offices - that would minimize too much the impact of the additional parking.

I think OKCisOK4me is onto something. I suspect there are multiple residential efforts in the works very close to this project which has caused concern for the parking garage location. Oddly enough, that same fear doesn't seem to apply to the suburban residential market because those developers have no problem building thousands of houses right next to each other.

I don't see where this is going. Deep Deuce proves that critical mass is good for housing.

I don't see where this is going. Deep Deuce proves that critical mass is good for housing.

I think Kerry was pointing out that maybe I was on to something saying that there was no need for a residential application for 70,000 sf of space when there may be more actual units planned nearby, like say, a new residential tower on the Stage Center site...

Think McFly think!

I've driven by this spot a couple of times here lately and I'm excited to see something goin in that empty space.

I've driven by this spot a couple of times here lately and I'm excited to see something goin in that empty space.

Agree. Regardless of what happens with the RFP for the top floors, this is terrific midblock infill.

I haven't read this thread in a while but I had the thought about a possible connection with the idea of putting a parking garage here and the Preftakes block just south of here. I read up a few posts and noticed others had also pointed this out.

It would also make sense for OG&E to stay near Hudson and their current location since they are right next to a parking garage already...

I wonder if we will see a trend of new parking garages going along with new skyscrapers similar to Devon Headquarters.

According to Steve's latest update, housing here is not looking likely, for now.

Cost likely is reason housing development atop downtown Oklahoma City garage fails to advance | News OK (http://newsok.com/cost-likely-is-reason-housing-development-atop-downtown-oklahoma-city-garage-fails-to-advance/article/3756794)

Just tried to post that but this site suddenly wouldn't load. I wonder why it does that sometimes.

Someone is going to have to explain the cost issue to me. If 3 stories on top of an existing 10 story building is cost prohibitive then I think that pretty much means a 13 story all residentiial tower is also cost prohibitive. I fully understand that the higher you go the more it cost (i.e. the 10th floor cost more to build than the 3rd floor) but I would have assumed that the first residential floor on the garage would have been equal in cost to say the 2nd or 3rd floor of a residential building.

I agree that this doesn't make sense. Especially since your foundation costs and any excation costs are already being covered by the cost of creating the parking garage. While I understand that it can't be built out of wood (and I still hate to see any apartment complex stick built), the Maywood Lofts weren't stick built and their purchase prices would make me think rentals of a building like that would be similar to others in the market.

I agree that this doesn't make sense. Especially since your foundation costs and any excation costs are already being covered by the cost of creating the parking garage. While I understand that it can't be built out of wood (and I still hate to see any apartment complex stick built), the Maywood Lofts weren't stick built and their purchase prices would make me think rentals of a building like that would be similar to others in the market.

if i remember correctly i believe that the RFP included a provision that the developer had to pay for the % cost of the Foundation and structure supporting the 3 floors ..

which i thought was strange at the time?

Well if true then that voids the claim that the residential developer would gain the height for free.

if i remember correctly i believe that the RFP included a provision that the developer had to pay for the % cost of the Foundation and structure supporting the 3 floors ..

which i thought was strange at the time?

I suppose if the foundation needs significant augmentation to support the housing that would be reasonable. But I doubt that would cost as much as building a foundation from scratch to support 4 or 5 stories, which they are currently doing at the Maywood Apartments. They had to do a fair amount of excavating and yet rental prices will be competitive.

I suppose if the foundation needs significant augmentation to support the housing that would be reasonable. But I doubt that would cost as much as building a foundation from scratch to support 4 or 5 stories, which they are currently doing at the Maywood Apartments. They had to do a fair amount of excavating and yet rental prices will be competitive.

I just dont really see why the foundation would need much augmentation. Therefore, I don't really see how cost is the major issue here. Like you said, Maywood Apartments is doing it from scratch and they will still be competitively priced.

This is a golden, I mean "green" opportunity to experiment with a green roof. Green roofs are easier to install on new construction.