Its the majority of the customers in your target demographic that determines if the customer is right or not. You obviously can't change your whole operation to fit the tastes of a few individuals.

That's like saying you can't put a traffic circle in Oklahoma City, because the majority of Oklahomans will be too stupid to use it...


Even though I took great care of my guest’s by making sure their cups, utensils, plates, bowls, and ramekins were clean and free of debris, most of my coworkers did not.

Crap! I still have that gift card to use... lol

Henry Ford's famous quote applies here:

"If I would have asked people what they wanted, they would have said 'Faster horses'. "


We don't have much fine dining in Oklahoma City and it's up to the operators at Vast and the like to raise the bar, not lower it to the level people have become accustomed.

I can assure you here in L.A. -- quite possibly the most competitive restaurant market in the U.S. -- that it's the norm to order your appetizers with your mains.

I would think that it would be appropriate to not want to space the orders out. What if you place just your appetizer order and between then and the time you place your entree order that a massive crowd comes in. Wouldn't you want to receive your order in a timely manner? I'd think that the customer would be complaining if their order was taking longer. Common sense...

Question: have you ever eaten in a "fine dining" restaurant that demands you to place your order for starters and appetizers at the same time you place your orders for mains? We thought it was some kind of joke, but realized they were serious. I cannot imagine in a million years wasting another minute of my life worrying about getting a reservation to that amateur hour.

Question - have you ever not ordered the starter and the main at the same time in a decent restaurant? I've got a lot of respect for SoonerGuru so I had to go back and look carefully at what he wrote. I thought he must have been mentioning having to order starter, main and dessert at the same time - which can happen, we need time to prepare it, we need to take the cheese out now, etc., etc.

But he is clearly talking about just starters and mains. So sadly, but with great relish, I have to say he's out to lunch....

While it is common practice to order the apps & main dishes at the same time, I have never found it to be a requirement. Have often ordeed apps first while we were deciding on the main meal. I don't see any difference in splitting up the placement of the order any more than adding on dessert at the end. It shouldn't be a big deal. If the restaurant isn't able to handle a reasonable request, the diner is free to take their business elsewhere. Have any of you seen those mystery diner shows where they set up cameras showing the staff being indifferent or not accommodating to the customer? When confronted by the owner, the staff gets defensive and beligerent, saying the customer is not always right, they got what they deserved?

In the case of the ordering sequence I think it boils simply down to the old adage "The customer is always right".
This tells me you've never run a successful business. The simple fact is that there are good customers and bad customers, and a business owner doesn't owe a bad customer anything. It must have something to do with the poverty levels in this state that makes people think that just because they have the money for a good or service means a business must do as they say. The prevalence of this attitude, in my opinion, is what is keeping more high-end retailers from locating here.

Sorry Soonerguru, I think you exposed yourself as being the 'amateur', not Vast. lol

I would think that it would be appropriate to not want to space the orders out. What if you place just your appetizer order and between then and the time you place your entree order that a massive crowd comes in. Wouldn't you want to receive your order in a timely manner? I'd think that the customer would be complaining if their order was taking longer. Common sense...

That largely depends on the appetizer ordered, the amount of people at the table, the amount of people in the restaurant, the table the guests are sitting at, the occasion on which the guests are dining, the time the group wants to spend at the restaurant.

It is a fluid situation. The server's responsibility is to read and direct the guests, whether overtly or covertly, to the best experience the guest is willing to have.

This tells me you've never run a successful business. The simple fact is that there are good customers and bad customers, and a business owner doesn't owe a bad customer anything. It must have something to do with the poverty levels in this state that makes people think that just because they have the money for a good or service means a business must do as they say. The prevalence of this attitude, in my opinion, is what is keeping more high-end retailers from locating here. Agree! Customers manipulate and work the system just because they have a sense of "entitlement". A business that is "customer focused" should strive to meet or bet their expectations however, not at the cost of a customer that takes complete advantage of a business simply because they can? Utter BS IMO. Sorry, the customer is not always right!

This tells me you've never run a successful business. The simple fact is that there are good customers and bad customers, and a business owner doesn't owe a bad customer anything. It must have something to do with the poverty levels in this state that makes people think that just because they have the money for a good or service means a business must do as they say. The prevalence of this attitude, in my opinion, is what is keeping more high-end retailers from locating here.

Hmmm.... Sam Walton said and believed the customer is always right. In fact his two rules for Walmart:


Wal-Mart Rule No. 1: The customer is always right.
Wal-Mart Rule No. 2: If the customer happens to be wrong, refer back to Rule No. 1!

I'm going to stick with Sam on this one until somebody more successful than he says otherwise.

Hmmm.... Sam Walton said and believed the customer is always right. In fact his two rules for Walmart:



I'm going to stick with Sam on this one until somebody more successful than he says otherwise.

Hmm. Selling large volumes of cheap underwear or providing fine dining at a nice restaurant. Yes, I am sure the same rules apply. Mass discount retailing and fine restaurant management...exactly the same.

While it is common practice to order the apps & main dishes at the same time, I have never found it to be a requirement. Have often ordeed apps first while we were deciding on the main meal. I don't see any difference in splitting up the placement of the order any more than adding on dessert at the end. It shouldn't be a big deal. If the restaurant isn't able to handle a reasonable request, the diner is free to take their business elsewhere.

^This. Absolutely this. If a restaurant declined and told me my starter order would have to wait until I was ready to place my order for my main course I would leave. But I've ordered this way on many occasions in a wide variety of restaurants and never had an adverse experience. Seems to me this may be an isolated incident.

Yeah, the Customer is not even always rational, let alone right.

I bet if you went into Wal-Mart when Sam Walton happened to be there and you said "This shirt ought to cost half this much" He'd call his own bluff...So much for the axiom

Yeah, exactly. Businesses don't stay in business because they bend over for the customer...

If I were the server and were reliant upon a happy customer for a good tip, I'd say the customer can order his appetizer separate from his main course, if he so desires, but advise him that ordering the main with it would allow for a speedier meal. If the customer insists on the wait, it should be his prerogative. If you're selling underwear and get paid no matter if the customer is happy about the thread count or not, the customer can be wrong. If you're selling entertainment (that's really what eating out is) and a disgruntled customer reduces your pay, you ought to satify the customer and ask the kitchen to work with you on this one.

Do you think there may be a possibility that if they ask you to order the dessert at the same time as all of it, that maybe, just MAYBE, they don't have it pre-ordered from some factory that makes desserts. Maybe they apply the frosting and all the freshness of that order right then and there? Maybe they need prep time on their desserts. IDK, that's just a thought.

Not sure this applies to this topic but last weekend I ate at a nice steak house in Richardson and when ordering an ap the waitress asked me if I would like it before my meal or with my main meal.

Salads are typically served before the entree in the U.S., after the entree in Europe.

Two couples dining together - one American the other European - have ordered dinner in a restaurant. What's it gonna be?

Do you think there may be a possibility that if they ask you to order the dessert at the same time as all of it, that maybe, just MAYBE, they don't have it pre-ordered from some factory that makes desserts. Maybe they apply the frosting and all the freshness of that order right then and there? Maybe they need prep time on their desserts. IDK, that's just a thought.

Yes. Some desserts (not sure about vast) require 7-10 minute lead times for prep. As a server it's a disaster having the table sit 7-10 mins after dinner with no food in front of them waiting for dessert. It's all about timing, if a server asks you a question about the next course he is trying to time it so you don't have a bad experience. The server knows the prep times for the menu better than you do and if he offers dessert at a specific time, it's because he knows how long it will take to execute it.

Yes. Some desserts (not sure about vast) require 7-10 minute lead times for prep. As a server it's a disaster having the table sit 7-10 mins after dinner with no food in front of them waiting for dessert. It's all about timing, if a server asks you a question about the next course he is trying to time it so you don't have a bad experience. The server knows the prep times for the menu better than you do and if he offers dessert at a specific time, it's because he knows how long it will take to execute it.

Maybe at Macaroni Grill...

Many guests are more likely to have a bad experience if they feel unnecessarily rushed than if things take longer than expected. Some tables are the same way. The only disastrous thing for a good server is misreading a guest.

Maybe at Macaroni Grill...

Many guests are more likely to have a bad experience if they feel unnecessarily rushed than if things take longer than expected. Some tables are the same way. The only disastrous thing for a good server is misreading a guest.

Nope, at many restaurants. You do not want your guests sitting there twiddling their thumbs any longer than necessary. The longer they are bored, the more nervous and antsy they get. The more antsy they get, the more likely they are to find something to complain about.

If a table is ordering drinks, it's not a bad idea to slow things down, one because they will continue to run up their drink tab the longer they are sitting, and two the drinks keep them occupied. If a table is not drinking or is done drinking, their dinner is over, and they are waiting up to 10 minutes for dessert....they will become antsy.

Nope, at many restaurants. You do not want your guests sitting there twiddling their thumbs any longer than necessary. The longer they are bored, the more nervous and antsy they get. The more antsy they get, the more likely they are to find something to complain about.

If a table is ordering drinks, it's not a bad idea to slow things down, one because they will continue to run up their drink tab the longer they are sitting, and two the drinks keep them occupied. If a table is not drinking or is done drinking, their dinner is over, and they are waiting up to 10 minutes for dessert....they will become antsy.

You missed the point of the post.

I hate being rushed and I hate sitting there for 10 mins waiting for a server to realize I wanna leave.

The idea that a restaurant can't handle a customer ordering appetizers while they're still looking over the menu for a main is pretty ridiculous to me.

It'd be one thing if it was dessert and they bake it right then and there. There it'd make some sense, and you'd expect the wait staff to explain to the customer. But I've never been in a restaurant, fine or otherwise, that's demanded customers order appetizers with the main course.

But, admittedly, there does seem to be a trend in some of the snootier places for restaurants to refuse to make any reasonable accommodations for customers, especially if the chefs have made some sort of name for themselves. It's an idiotic trend of course, but it does seem to be a trend.

There's a major difference between demanding that a guest order any portion of the meal at a certain time and recommending them do so, though it would seem that some people feel that a suggestion to go another direction is pushy, when indeed it is not. It is appropriate for a server to inform the guest that they would be best served to order something at a certain time. It is also appropriate for a server to take an order and not turn it in until the timing is going to work exactly as the server sees as necessary and proper to give the guest the proper experience.

The real point is that too many people in this thread are making far too many generalizations about what should or shouldn't be, and not allowing for/understanding that it depends on far more factors than anybody in this discussion seems to realize. For example: Everyone in these posts is talking like servers have one table to focus on and time correctly at any given point in the night.

Try again.

Well, perhaps this requirement to order appetizers with the main courses is a trend I've missed while dining at some of the finest rated restaurants in the United States, particularly NYC, Mexico, and throughout continental Europe. It was my first time to experience this charming development.

Within the last year, I dined at two of Jose Andres' most celebrated restaurants, and I certainly didn't experience anything close to this demand. In fact, the "small plates" phenomenon celebrates savoring a meal through multiple courses. Dining in such an establishment is costly, but worth it, because food is savored along with the varied wine selections.

On my prior visit, as stated, Vast had an outstanding sommelier, but he has since left them. The atmosphere had changed remarkably since that visit.

I must say, that were I dining at one of Andres', Keith McNally's, or Jean Georges' restaurants, I would be more willing to accept "rules," but the meal at Vast was nowhere near that kind of dining experience, so I don't understand why I should joyously accept this brusque style.

Also, I made my request for reservations three months in advance, and I was anticipating a special dining experience, not a rushed meal. And regarding the "rushing," I would be more understanding if there were in fact a lot of people waiting for tables, but there were numerous empty tables on the Friday night we dined there.

The atmosphere was certainly not brimming with excitement.

For those of you who enjoy being rushed to order everything at once after placing an initial drink order, Vast is definitely going to be your place! Enjoy!

Must be a schitzophrenic place...these descriptions don't match any of my experience at vast. Service has been fine. Food was good (not great). And they didn't make me order everything at once. It wasn't an "exciting" atmosphere, but it isn't really a club.

There's a major difference between demanding that a guest order any portion of the meal at a certain time and recommending them do so, though it would seem that some people feel that a suggestion to go another direction is pushy, when indeed it is not. It is appropriate for a server to inform the guest that they would be best served to order something at a certain time. It is also appropriate for a server to take an order and not turn it in until the timing is going to work exactly as the server sees as necessary and proper to give the guest the proper experience.

The real point is that too many people in this thread are making far too many generalizations about what should or shouldn't be, and not allowing for/understanding that it depends on far more factors than anybody in this discussion seems to realize. For example: Everyone in these posts is talking like servers have one table to focus on and time correctly at any given point in the night.

I think the point is that there seem to be a number of people want to play apologist and turn any complaint into a personal crusade with this place, without seeming to accept that no one is going to have an identical experience. At a high end restaurant, you don't expect servers to be unaccommodating. If someone feels they were, it benefits no one to have a half-dozen white knights to come out the woodwork and talk down to the person who had issues as though it were all their fault and they just don't understand how this new fangled dining thing works.

Ahhh, the spring greenery!

http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/465379_444918245600692_829014277_o.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=444918245600692&set=a.326434214115763.75029.259744237451428&type=1&relevant_count=1)

Has anyone had the lunch buffet at vast (daily table?) ? what's it like as far as price, food variety?

We don't have much fine dining in Oklahoma City and it's up to the operators at Vast and the like to raise the bar, not lower it to the level people have become accustomed.


I think this is where my problem with Vast and it's food is. I have been to many fine restaurants in places like San Francisco, Chicago, New York, Boston, and Miami (haven't been to LA very much)... and while i thought the food was good (and by good i mean it tasted fine), it was not good for the price. Having been to restaurants of a similar price range (and some much greater), i expected a lot more from the food, and not in quantity, but in quality. I came away feeling as though i could have gone elsewhere in OKC and gotten food just as good for much less in price, and i didn't have that feeling going to those other restaurants in other cities. I felt that it wasn't up to par with what is out there around the country, and i wanted Vast to raise the bar, but sadly, i think they just raised their prices rather than the bar.

Perhaps it is best to just consider the lunch buffet as a 12.00 buffet with an 8.00 cover charge tacked on for providing the view.

I'm reminded a bit of the old Cedarvale Gardens down near Davis. Free garden admission with every meal, or a 3ish admission charge for non-diners. Pretty much every entree on the menu struck me as being 3-4 higher than comparable prices elsewhere. But, the food was better than merely passable, the grounds were indeed lovely, and the drive to and from, provided you chose your dining companions well, was enjoyable conversation.

Has anyone had the lunch buffet at vast (daily table?) ? what's it like as far as price, food variety?

It was $18 or so if I remember correctly plus the cost of a beverage. I went shortly after it opened. Pricing may be different now. With 2 sodas tax and 20% tip it was around $50 for two people out the door for lunch.

Food quality was ok, Most dishes were on par with Golden Corral, some were better, however we went for the view, not the food.

Decent variety, maybe 10 dishes if I remember right.

Next time family or friends are in town, this would be at the top of the list for a weekday lunch spot.

Now THAT is what I would call a "fair and unbiased" review of this special dining location.
Thank you Sir (or Madam).

"We went for the view, not the food." Excellent.

I can't believe you--KevinP--mentioned Cedarvale Trout Restaurant/Gardens!!!!

I didn't think ANYONE else remembered that place. I went there only one time. On the way to a memorable weekend at Lake Texoma. It was a fabulous dining experience. The setting, the ambiance, the walk through the garden part of the place. All awe inspiring. But the best part of all was the fact that the Trout served was BETTER than that served at some "fancy" restaurant in Estes Park, CO or prepared by my mom at home on account of she was married to The Unknown World's Champion Trout Fisherman in Colorado (c. 1954--1973) =)

It IS possible to achieve "perfect harmony" in the culinary universe.
Frankly, until you mentioned the place I was beginning to believe it only actually existed in my fading imagination. =)

They actually had goats on the side of the cliff at Cedarvale....we went once too and it was great.

Posted to the Vast FB page after the recent storms:

https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/521957_511713855587797_2067732789_n.png

Not a post in this thread in over four months. Interesting.

I will probably go check out Vast at some point just, not anytime in the near future. It sounds like they need a little more time to get their act together. If I am going to drop a $100 or more on a meal, I want it to be the best meal, best service and best experience of my life. Just simply because to I work hard to earn every dollar I make and I hate throwing good money away on bad products and services.

I will probably go check out Vast at some point just, not anytime in the near future. It sounds like they need a little more time to get their act together. If I am going to drop a $100 or more on a meal, I want it to be the best meal, best service and best experience of my life. Just simply because to I work hard to earn every dollar I make and I hate throwing good money away on bad products and services.

I think I might have posted this before, but seriously I need to chime in and champion the Vast lunch buffet. Very ery good, large selection of items. Two or three entrees plus a carving station. A wonderful salad bar complete with an array of (like over a dozen) fancy cheeses. And at least 20 different deserts, mostly in the form of tartlet-size thingies. All this at $19, including tea or soda.

Still pricey, but far and away better than similar buffets at the Skirvin or the Petroleum Club.

$19 is not bad considering you would probably pay $10-$15 at most sit down casual restaurants for lunch. I may have to check that out.

In may I referred to it as a 12.00 buffer with an 8.00 cover for the view. Given DrTaco's description, I guess I ought to amend to a 15.00 buffet with a 3.00 cover for the view. Entirely reasonable on a clear day.

As per Steve, Devon is bringing Kurt Fleischfresser to take over at Vast. This certainly is a move in the right direction.

Changes at the Colcord Hotel, Flint and Vast | News OK (http://newsok.com/changes-at-the-colcord-hotel-flint-and-vast/article/5159767)

Excellent news.

Cannot happen soon enough!!!

Went to Vast a few weeks ago for anniversary. The space and ambiance was second to none, and the design and décor of the place showed they spared no expense. And while the food was good, I felt the menu left a lot to be desired. Hopefully they will make it to what it needs to be.

This is Great news! Look foward to seeing a new menu!

I heard that as of yesterday, they have already replaced the entire management team.

New operators were in place as of yesterday morning.

I wonder if this extends to Nebu as well.

I wonder if this extends to Nebu as well.

I'm very sure it won't.

Nebu and Aravalli have always been managed by Guckenheimer, and they are excellent.

This is long overdue. I love Chef Black but something was amiss with Vast from the start. It really fell short.

Perhaps it was micromanaged to the hilt by the ownership? Who knows? But it was a notch below excellent.

Chef Kurt is probably the best hire they could make locally. He will make this restaurant a player -- that is if ownership doesn't meddle too much.

I heard that as of yesterday, they have already replaced the entire management team.

New operators were in place as of yesterday morning.

That is correct.

As I mentioned before, I had a pretty bad experience with Williams & Associates when I hosted a 300-person event in the meeting space at Vast last summer.

The catering manager has downright rude and really the entire staff acted like they didn't want to be there. The meeting manager -- who worked for the Colcord and not Willaims -- was very good, however.


Remember that the private dining space at Vast only comprises about a third of the 49th floor. The remainder and the entire 50th floor is dedicated for events and private dining, and the Colcord has several event spaces as well. Then you add in Vast and Flint and room service at the Colcord.

This absolutely a huge job and while I always try to give the benefit of the doubt when little things fall a bit short, attitude towards customers is something very basic and an area that is very telling.

I can confirm that the Coury group is already managing the Colcord and all the restaurant operations at Vast and Flint.

Kurt Fleischfresser has replaced Andrew Black as head of restaurant operations.


With a little time, we should start to see some interesting changes.

Dave Cathey article:

Look Up in the Sky: It's a bird, it's a plane, it's...Flash? | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/5171515)


He said no immediate changes are planned for Flint but the catering operation above Vast will be under great scrutiny. What the dining public is less likely to know is how a restaurant can be held back by its infrastructure and internal design as easily as its menu.

I heard that as of yesterday, they have already replaced the entire management team.

New operators were in place as of yesterday morning.

Does that include flint as well? Flint was always my bigger disappointment.

^

I believe for now they have just replaced the very top-level management for the Colcord, Vast and Flint.

From a Hobby Cook's Standpoint:

Can you imagine how difficult it would be
To rise to the Top of the OKCuisine
And be replaced?

I'm fairly confident that KF is up to the task
Although his offering at the last Charity Pork Feed
That I attended (at the Cowboy Hall of Fame)
While not shabby,
Couldn't hold a candle
To some "bananatamal"
Thing that Mr. Seay, formerly of The Original Gabriella's
Donated.

Typing only as a Hobby Cook.
With attention to detail.
And the ability to know
What is actually good
Beyond the showmanship. =)

^

I believe for now they have just replaced the very top-level management and the executive chef for the Colcord, Vast and Flint.

The service was always the problem at Flint. I've never had a problem at vast, but it doesn't "wow" me. I'll give it some time and try both again.

Does that include flint as well? Flint was always my bigger disappointment.

Flint sucked, 4 of us went in for coffee and hot chocolate one evening and haven't been back since. That would be damn hard to screw that up but they did.