There seems to be interest in this topic in a variety of ways.:)

Have at it you silly gooses! Thanks ou48a!!

Is there are way to move the "DART only" posts from the streetcar thread over to this one? I hate it went so far astray of the original intent.

Pete can do it. He does from time to time with other threads.

There is plenty to talk about besides DART….
Road construction, DFW airport, Megabus, policy decisions, and I’m sure there is more….

I recently went through DFW and one of the highway interchanges is completly torn up. Are they putting in flyovers like the High-Five interchange?

635 is a mess but I have no idea what they are doing....

635 is a mess but I have no idea what they are doing....

If you would have read post 3008 of mine on the linked thread more carefully you would have seen that they are reconstructing I-635 LBJ.

They are rebuilding I 635 from I-35 to US- 75 over the next several years. Some lanes will apparently be turned into toll lanes.
http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=20121&page=121



I thought you live in DFW. I have known about this since this past winter and before I made my OU Texas hotel reservations.

Nope - I live in OKC. I go down to DFW about once every couple of months.

This is over a year old, but it provides a good overview of the project.
Personally, I would try to avoid this area for the next few years.


http://www.dallasnews.com/news/transportation/20110420-lbj-headaches-to-begin-for-dallas-commuters-as-5-year-project-gets-under-way-.ece

By MICHAEL A. LINDENBERGER The Dallas Morning News Transportation Writer
mlindenberger@dallasnews.com

20 April 2011 11:00 PM


Drivers already plagued by some of Texas’ slowest traffic on LBJ Freeway are about to learn just how bad things can get, as crews begin the total reconstruction of one of the nation’s busiest freeways.

The potential for disruption is profound, as thousands of businesses line the busy corridor and 270,000 cars travel the segment between U.S. 75 and Interstate 35E daily, making it the most heavily traveled corridor in North Texas and the third most-congested in Texas.

The $2.7 billion reconstruction, one of the biggest and most complex construction projects in Dallas history, will not add any free lanes to the highway. But it will rebuild those lanes and improve its network of frontage roads. When complete, the new highway will run above six new paid lanes that will be dug deep into the ground below the highway.

Preliminary work on the project began months ago, but for most drivers, the real headaches will begin early next month when crews close carpool lanes to make way for the road builders.

Those carpool lanes — one in each direction — are the region’s busiest, and carry 44,000 passengers a day. Those travelers will have to decide whether to take another route to work or force their way into the already crowded main lanes.

An open house Thursday will give nearby residents, business owners and motorists a closer look at what the coming five years of construction will mean. The information session is at the Sheraton North Dallas hotel, 4801 LBJ Freeway, from 1 to 8 p.m.

The rebuilt highway will be Dallas’ first to offer a mix of paid and free lanes, joining a similar project in Houston and in Fort Worth as the state’s first so-called managed lane projects. Both the Fort Worth project, known as the North Tarrant Express, and the new LBJ are being built and largely financed by a team of investors led by Spanish toll road firm Cintra.

That team of private investors will control the project for 52 years, maintain all of its lanes and collect tolls on the optional paid lanes that will be several times higher than those charged by the North Texas Tollway Authority.

But for drivers, the new headaches will come long before they must decide whether to pay the new tolls.

LBJ Freeway carries 100,000 more vehicles every day than it was designed to. And no matter who got the job — or whether it involved toll lanes or free lanes or both — the prospect of rebuilding it while trying to keep traffic moving along Dallas’ busiest east-west corridor was never going to be painless.

While under construction, the lanes will be redrawn regularly because the firms’ contract with the state requires that it keep four main lanes in each direction available for traffic. But which of the five lanes that exist now will be kept open will change from week to week as construction needs change, said spokesman Andy Rittler of the LBJ Infrastructure Group, the project’s builders.

The construction will mean five years of hassles for drivers and business owners alike, though officials with the state and the road builders say they are working hard to minimize those problems.

“We have to really push on the front end with the drivers to educate themselves about the changes,” Rittler said. “It’s going to take some time, and it’s going to be a little messy for three or four months. Hopefully, drivers will then get used to it, because we’re going to change lane configurations quite a bit — probably on a weekly basis.”

Lots of projects

The reconstruction of LBJ Freeway is one of a handful of multibillion-dollar highway projects under way that have together marked North Texas out as one of the country’s busiest areas when it comes to building highways.

But with that explosion in new highways — almost all of which have included tolls — has come significant consternation for commuters.

Near Grapevine, state officials are constructing the DFW Connector, a complex series of improvements aimed as detangling the famously snarled Grapevine Funnel. It’s a project, about half the size of the LBJ job, that’s been among the top priorities of North Tarrant elected officials for decades, and its kickoff last year was greeted with wide applause.

But so far, the cost of progress has been a pain for drivers and businesses in the area, said one of its longest-tenured advocates, Mayor William D. Tate of Grapevine.

“At times, it’s been pretty frustrating to the drivers and to the businesses here,” said Tate, noting that some businesses have seen sales drop as a result.

“And the accidents have nearly doubled this year over last year,” he said, leading to efforts to improve signage and lower the construction zone speed limit to 50 mph. “They do a lot of the work at night, so you wake up in the morning, and there is a different highway to negotiate on the way to work. That’s very confusing at times, so you really have to be on your toes.”

Be aware

Rittler said the best advice his company can offer drivers is to stay informed about the changing landscape that will confront them as they drive LBJ over the next five years.

“Know before you go,” he said, echoing a motto he said will help drivers avoid accidents.

The company maintains a website — www.lbjexpress.com — where motorists and business owners can subscribe to text and email alerts that will keep them informed, he said.

That kind of information can help, said Walter Humann.

Humann helped spearhead the public support for the reconstruction of U.S. 75 between Dallas and Plano in the 1990s, a project that probably came closest to creating the kinds of challenges that confront the LBJ reconstruction.

But Humann said problems were fewer than expected, thanks in part to constant communication among the builders and area businesses and commuters.

The two projects share something else, too, however. In both cases, the years-long construction efforts weren‘t enough to end traffic jams for the majority of those who use the roads daily.

In the case of U.S. 75, the new lanes quickly filled up with new traffic, and traffic there routinely slows to a stop during rush hours.

Where the money is coming from:

A team of private companies led by the Spanish toll road firm Cintra will finance and build the new LBJ Freeway, reconstructing existing lanes, improving the frontage roads and adding new paid lanes which will be much more expensive than typical toll roads.

The state of Texas contributed $490 million, and the U.S. government provided a low-cost loan of $850 million. In addition, private firms behind the project invested $664 million in equity, and took advantage of a government-sponsored tax-free bond program to borrow to borrow another $615 million.

What’s happening this year:

By May, the existing HOV lane on 635 will be closed for the duration of the project

Utility relocations along entire corridor

I-35E/Loop 12 interchange

Reconstruction of Joe Ratliff pedestrian bridge

Reconstruction of Rosser, Hillcrest, Preston and Welch bridges

Wow - I heard something about underground lanes but had no idea of the extent.

The wife talked me into taking Dart’s Green rail line for the OU-Texas game.

We boarded a 6:57 AM train at the far north end of the green line. It took about an hour to get the MKL station. Cost was $2 for parking and $4 per ticket x2.. Total cost $10.
I could have driven it in about 35 minutes at that time of day via the back way in.
Securer Fair Park parking was $15. Other reasonable nearby parking was $22. + gasoline money for the extra driving.

We stayed until the OU players left the field.
On the way out we waited on a train for about 10 to 15 minutes. It took about an hour and 10 minutes to make our way back to the north end of the green line.

Using the back way out I could have driven this distance in less than ½ the time… if we would have parked in the $22 dollar lot.
Dart rail is probably ok if you are staying Saturday night, particularly if its downtown. But since we usually drive back after the game saving the time is more important… so I am probably done with Dart rail on OU Texas week end.



PS: What Dallas is doing on post 10 of this thread makes OKC’s recent I-40 project look like child’s play...
We need to think in much bolder ways with regard to our transportation in our area.

I used to take MARTA from Perimeter Mall to the airport even though I could drive it faster. The reason - the chance of being rear-ended by an inattentive drive was close to 0 and the reduced stress was worth it for me. Park, swipe my card, get on a train, and get off right inside the terminal. Plus, no door dings on my car by parking in small airport parking space.

I agree with Kerry on this. I would much rather spend a little extra time than having to drive my car in that traffic. I've done both (especially then driving part for many, many years). The DART was much more relaxing and I was able to enjoy the entire experience much more.
I've also had a car that was damaged by "who knows?" while parked for the game.

If you would have read post 3008 of mine on the linked thread more carefully you would have seen that they are reconstructing I-635 LBJ.

They are rebuilding I 635 from I-35 to US- 75 over the next several years. Some lanes will apparently be turned into toll lanes.
The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses - Page 121 (http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=20121&page=121)



I thought you live in DFW. I have known about this since this past winter and before I made my OU Texas hotel reservations.

Wow, their taking everything that people have complained about on this forum and supersized it. Lol
1. Large number of lanes(I would say its probably the widest interstate in the world if you count managed and nonmanaged lanes.)
2. Elevated expresslanes that stretch 3 miles.
3. Toll roads that increase in price until the speed is above 50mph.

I agree with Kerry on this. I would much rather spend a little extra time than having to drive my car in that traffic. I've done both (especially then driving part for many, many years). The DART was much more relaxing and I was able to enjoy the entire experience much more.
I've also had a car that was damaged by "who knows?" while parked for the game.

I have never been intimidated by Dallas traffic.
I am basically as relaxed diving in it as I am right now but as we have gotten older it does bother my wife more and that’s the only reason why we took it.
Experience has pretty well taught me how to make my way away from the heavy OU Texas game day traffic. Knowing the back ways in and out and not being too scared to drive though some of the rougher areas really help’s on an event like this.
I can usually drive home with a quick bit to eat in about 4 hours after this game… Taking Dart delayed me by about one hour. Dart wasn’t worth the time delay…. but it wasn’t worth the cold I now have, the person sitting behind me on Dart sneezed on me.

But this is one of those deals….. If it works well for you…. keep doing it. ;)

Took the Green line all weekend everywhere we went. It was fantastic. Longest ride was 10 minutes. Will do it all again next year.

ou48a - I suggest you stay off trains. You might also want to consider sitting in a bubble at the game :)

If you go to a state fair and all you catch is a cold, consider yourself lucky.

ou48a - I suggest you stay off trains. You might also want to consider sitting in a bubble at the game :)

If you go to a state fair and all you catch is a cold, consider yourself lucky.

It was someone on the train who gave me the cold.
The trip was mostly great, until this morning LOL.

Took the Green line all weekend everywhere we went. It was fantastic. Longest ride was 10 minutes. Will do it all again next year.

Were you staying downtown?
If you’re staying downtown (or near) Dart Rail is probably the best way to go.

Were you staying down town?
If you’re staying down town (or near) Dart Rail is probably the best way to go.

Yes, the four of us stayed downtown, but we used Dart Rail to get everywhere we went all weekend. It was really great and I can't wait until OKC gets some rail service. I really love getting around cities by trains.

PS: What Dallas is doing on post 10 of this thread makes OKC’s recent I-40 project look like child’s play...
We need to think in much bolder ways with regard to our transportation in our area.
I couldn't agree more. I wish they would start building our interchange's like the ones in Dallas.

I couldn't agree more. I wish they would start building our interchange's like the ones in Dallas.

Why? Dallas traffic is some of the worst in the US. If their design is so great why does their traffic suck?

The trouble with the building of more highway traffic capacity is that traffic inevitably matches and surpasses capacity. The best analogy I have heard is traffic is like a gas that expands to the volume of its container, not a liquid that flows as it is regarded by traffic engineers.

This is why there needs to be more focus on building multiple modes of transportation. Maintain the highway infrastructure we have invested in, but shift transportation funding to those that actually relieve highway congestion.

The trouble with the building of more highway traffic capacity is that traffic inevitably matches and surpasses capacity. The best analogy I have heard is traffic is like a gas that expands to the volume of its container, not a liquid that flows as it is regarded by traffic engineers.

This is why there needs to be more focus on building multiple modes of transportation. Maintain the highway infrastructure we have invested in, but shift transportation funding to those that actually relieve highway congestion.

that logic doesn't work all the time .... ie if I 35 was made 6 lane all the way from norman to dallas traffic counts in thackerville would not all of the sudden jump ...

Why? Dallas traffic is some of the worst in the US. If their design is so great why does their traffic suck?

6.5 mil people

6.5 mil people

People don't create traffic - having to drive creates traffic. Make it easier to drive and more people will choosing driving, up until the point that congestion equilibrium is again reached. Induced demand and latent demand is well documented.

Induced demand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand)


Induced demand, or latent demand, is the phenomenon that after supply increases, more of a good is consumed. This is entirely consistent with the economic theory of supply and demand; however, this idea has become important in the debate over the expansion of transportation systems, and is often used as an argument against widening roads, such as major commuter roads. It is considered by some to be a contributing factor to urban sprawl.

I think doing things that improve efficiency on highways, and expansion as needed should be done, along with creating infrastructure for other forms of transportation... it's not and either or proposition... it's a lets to both and get the best transportation system there is across all possible modes

that logic doesn't work all the time .... ie if I 35 was made 6 lane all the way from norman to dallas traffic counts in thackerville would not all of the sudden jump ...

I agree about the rural highways. It generally holds true in urban areas though.

It is pretty much is an either/or proposition. You can’t simultaneous solve the problem and keep creating the problem. Well you could, by why would you want to? Look at ODOT own prediction for the new boulevard. Today 0 cars a day use that route. If built, they say 70,000 cars a day will use that route. So lets not build and reduce traffic by 70,000 cars a day.

I believe it is as simple as shifting transportation subsidy spending from nearly exclusively highways to using those funds to maintain the current road infrastructure including replacing deficient bridges but not adding more lane miles. Instead, shift most new construction funds to other more efficient modes of transportation infrastructure construction.

You are more generous than me CaptDave. I wouldn't even fund repair of the interstate highway system and instead use all that money on other modes of transportation. Just to fix the current structurally deficient bridges in the US would cost something like $2 trillion dollars.

We should just cut our losses.

I know JTF. I understand ripping off the band aid, but don't think that approach is one that would be stomached at this time. I think as we may eventually get to a point where we can reduce the total number of lane miles we are stuck maintaining, but it will take a while.

Why? Dallas traffic is some of the worst in the US. If their design is so great why does their traffic suck?

Because their interchanges are fantastic. I'm not advocating building 10-lane highways everywhere, but I do think our interchanges need to be designed and built like those in Texas. It would make so much more sense and help traffic flow so much more smoothly. I see well-designed interchanges as a different issue than constantly expanding highways.

Why? Dallas traffic is some of the worst in the US. If their design is so great why does their traffic suck?
Because for one Dallas just has badass highways that make you feel like you are driving in a MAJOR city(even though you are in Dallas).
And I love cars. Regarding to your post of induced demand the same could be said for trains as well. I would rather be stuck in traffic in my car and have my Radio, air conditioning to my liking, seats positioned to my liking, having the option if I decide I want to go somewhere where the train doesn't I can just get off the highway, if I don't want the radio on I can have quietness(to some extent) rather than be at a train station with a thousand other people who could get me sick, I have no control over radio or air conditioning!!

I still would love a light rail and an extensive bus network in Oklahoma City so people that either can't afford a car or gas, don't want to have to deal with traffic, and/or simply don't like cars have the option. I do bike a lot(which is kinda hard to do in Edmond because the people can be asshole's sometimes and every once in awhile a cop might start screwing around with you) so I'm sure we could agree on that form of transit haha.. But I'm sorry man I'm trying to be argumentative just prefer driving and highways with higher speed limits and fly overs. Thats just my style. :)

Oh and also I think that fly overs move traffic more efficiently. I have no facts to back that up, but it just seems from past experience traffic flows better with fly overs as opposed to clovers leafs.

I guess you guys (and gals) just aren't seeing it. No matter how easy you make traffic flow or how many lanes you make, urban sprawl will eventually choke it to death. You can't say with a straight face that flyover ramps improve traffic flow when you can look at dozens of fly-over ramps in Dallas with traffic that isn't moving.

Any road can move traffic effectively if there isn't any traffic but modern American freeways perform the worst when they are needed the most. Honestly, who thinks that building something that fails the worst when it is needed the most is good design?

It seems that many of you think 'traffic' is a fixed quantity that if you could just out-build it then traffic would flow smoothly. The problem is you can't out build it. The more you build the more people will use it. We have been building freeways for 70 years and traffic is worse now than ever. Are we really not seeing the pattern? Why do people insist on playing a game they can’t possibly win? There are transportation system that can carry far more people at a much lower price.

With a dwindly supply of government money and an exponentially growing cost of just maintaing what we have already built we need to be spending what resources we have left a lot more efficiently. The money being spent just on I-635 in Dallas could build an entire rail system for Metro OKC that would last 100 years.

I guess you guys (and gals) just aren't seeing it. No matter how easy you make traffic flow or how many lanes you make, urban sprawl will eventually choke it to death. You can't say with a straight face that flyover ramps improve traffic flow when you can look at dozens of fly-over ramps in Dallas with traffic that isn't moving.

Any road can move traffic effectively if there isn't any traffic but modern American freeways perform the worst when they are needed the most. Honestly, who thinks that building something that fails the worst when it is needed the most is good design?

It seems that many of you think 'traffic' is a fixed quantity that if you could just out-build it then traffic would flow smoothly. The problem is you can't out build it. The more you build the more people will use it. We have been building freeways for 70 years and traffic is worse now than ever. Are we really not seeing the pattern? Why do people insist on playing a game they can’t possibly win? There are transportation system that can carry far more people at a much lower price.

With a dwindly supply of government money and an exponentially growing cost of just maintaing what we have already built we need to be spending what resources we have left a lot more efficiently. The money being spent just on I-635 in Dallas could build an entire rail system for Metro OKC that would last 100 years.
Well actually the traffic that is sitting on the ramps really only happens during rush hour or if theres a bad wreck. As far as Dallas having awful traffic, I lived there for 6 years, and there traffic really isn't that bad with the exception of rush hour. If you want bad traffic almost 24/7 your talking cities like Houston, Atlanta, NYC, L.A., maybe Chicago(I've never been to Chicago but I'm that's a good let off for Radical Moderate haha..)But seriously go to Dallas all the time and there traffic isn't anywhere near as bad as cities like Houston and L.A.

I understand what your are saying about the sprawl. I can't really much about that as I am a suburb guy but I can definitely see how uncontrolled sprawl like Houston and Atlanta sprawl can be bad in the future.

Enormous doesn't begin to describe the amount of money it would take. Not only would you have to build to get in front of the traffic curve, you would have to keep building to stay in front, and then you would have to pay to maintain what was just built.

I watched The Crumbling of America last week on the History Channel. While it was produced for the sole purpose of encouraging more funding for roads and bridges it gave a good idea of just how bad our current infrastructure is and how much it will cost to fix it, never mind the cost to expand it. We don’t have that kind if money. We have to find a better way. Every nickel spent on our current freeways system is wasted because we can’t support it long term. To paraphrase Kunstler again, we have to resize and rescale, and do it soon.

zBSPcIGGcIc

I guess you guys (and gals) just aren't seeing it. No matter how easy you make traffic flow or how many lanes you make, urban sprawl will eventually choke it to death. You can't say with a straight face that flyover ramps improve traffic flow when you can look at dozens of fly-over ramps in Dallas with traffic that isn't moving.

But that's just the thing... Unless there's some sort of construction beyond the flyover ramp, I never see cars stopped on the ramps. They flow so smoothly. Unlike our interchanges. Honestly, you live in Jacksonville, but if you haven't seen the Broadway Extension and I-44 junction lately with its awesome cloverleaf ramps and poor design, then you're missing my point. Oklahoma needs better interchanges. I'm all for trains and buses and whatever else, but we NEED better interchanges.

But that's just the thing... Unless there's some sort of construction beyond the flyover ramp, I never see cars stopped on the ramps. They flow so smoothly. Unlike our interchanges. Honestly, you live in Jacksonville, but if you haven't seen the Broadway Extension and I-44 junction lately with its awesome cloverleaf ramps and poor design, then you're missing my point. Oklahoma needs better interchanges. I'm all for trains and buses and whatever else, but we NEED better interchanges.

I'm in 100% agreement with this. I particularly have developed a dislike for the current mess that is I-35/I-240. I can't wait till it's converted to the proposed half-cloverleaf/stack arrangement (then again, people changing their recjless driving habits would help also, like not using the cell phone while driving but that's another subject). I had the pleasure of using one of the Houston stacks last year when I flew down for a friend's wedding (had to drive to Montgomery and back). It was nice to just keep a steady flow from I-45 to the Sam Houston Tollway and not slow down by 20-30 mph just to get onto another highway. Granted, it was in the early morning hours but Houston has stacks pretty much everywhere. I think it's the best form of interchange where two highways with heavy traffic volumes meet.

I'll agree, flyovers are better than cloverleafs, but give traffic time to overwhelm the flyovers. After all, if TxDOT didn't think the traffic is coming in the future they wouldn't have built them.