View Full Version : Gunman kills 12 in Colorado movie theater



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BBatesokc
07-23-2012, 11:10 AM
I agree but thinking it should have set off an alarm somewhere, it's not like the government isn't watching for people who are wanting to do acts of terror.

So..... you advocate the gov't send a SWAT team or some guy in a suit and dark glasses to your home if you order body armor, ammunition or an extra capacity clip? While those items may not be on you or I's shopping list, you realize these manufacturers exist because they sell hundreds of thousands of these items every year to people who do not use them to break the law.

If not, then what exactly do you mean by "should have set off an alarm"?

I'm not saying some similar things are not already in place and not trying to be condescending. Just breaking it down.

When I worked downtown at Dee's Graphic Supply (in high school) we were twice visited by government agents when they detected customers that ordered specific types of ink on separate orders. These items had been flagged as most likely to be used in the commission of printing counterfeit money. At least once it did result in a successful raid.

Roadhawg
07-23-2012, 11:13 AM
I use a AR-15 that has a 100 round clip all the time for rabbit hunting.

RadicalModerate
07-23-2012, 11:17 AM
Here is the "funny" (and by "funny" I mean "strange" . . . "odd" . . . "perverted" . . . "qu....nevermind) part:
In about three years someone will probably make a movie about this incident that people will pay to see.
Anomie.

It will probably be Michael Moore.
But I could be wrong. (i ain't Kresgin fer cryin' out loud)

P.S. To RH: Them $1,000 rounds would make fer some real expensive rabbit stew . . .
Have ya' thought 'bout shootin' squirrels instead?
The one's a-stealin' the seeds that ya' put out ta' feed the birds?

Achilleslastand
07-23-2012, 11:18 AM
I use a AR-15 that has a 100 round clip all the time for rabbit hunting.

You are kidding right?
Overkill

Roadhawg
07-23-2012, 11:20 AM
So..... you advocate the gov't send a SWAT team or some guy in a suit and dark glasses to your home if you order body armor, ammunition or an extra capacity clip? While those items may not be on you or I's shopping list, you realize these manufacturers exist because they sell hundreds of thousands of these items every year to people who do not use them to break the law.

If not, then what exactly do you mean by "should have set off an alarm"?

I'm not saying some similar things are not already in place and not trying to be condescending. Just breaking it down.

When I worked downtown at Dee's Graphic Supply (in high school) we were twice visited by government agents when they detected customers that ordered specific types of ink on separate orders. These items had been flagged as most likely to be used in the commission of printing counterfeit money. At least once it did result in a successful raid.

Doesn't the government monitor our phone calls, emails, etc already? By setting off an alarm I mean why does a non police person need a full body suit for? What does a person need a 100 bullet clip for an AR15 for? If this was a Muslim people would be screaming wondering why this stuff wasn't reported. I do support when things like what I mentioned are bought the local police should be notified so they can at least be aware.

Hundreds and thousands of body armor suits, 100 round clips are sold every year, and your example of sending in a swat team is condescending and you know it.

Roadhawg
07-23-2012, 11:21 AM
I use a AR-15 that has a 100 round clip all the time for rabbit hunting.


You are kidding right?
Overkill

Exactly.... what else would those be used for?

RadicalModerate
07-23-2012, 11:30 AM
You are kidding right?
Overkill

Is "kidding" akin to "hyperbole"?
prob'ly not . . . jist axin' . . .

(i think the correct answer is "yes")

(oops . . . sorry . . . "asked and answered" . . . crossed posts and all that)

Has "Common Sense" Devolved Into "Common Sensitivity"?
Inquiring Mimes wants to no.

kevinpate
07-23-2012, 11:30 AM
... one measure that should be taken is banning the sale of extended clips and drum clips. All these things do is allow a shooter to kill more people more quickly. No way should something that holds 50 rounds of ammo be legal. You ... dont need 50 rounds to protect you family.

Not able to agree with you. I can see where Joe the mower/fireman/lawyer/etc., who typically only ever discharges a firearm in a controlled setting at a range or in a pasture (well lit, fully alert, low stress situations), being even less of a marksman when its low light, high stress, trying to get alert setting, aka a typical night time home invasion. The walls will look like hell more likely than not, but hopefully s/he and family walk away to repair the walls another day.

A 50 shot mag is not far superior firepower in the home if two or three intruders are carrying a 15 -17 shot glock mag.

RadicalModerate
07-23-2012, 11:40 AM
Perhaps this thread might be re-titled:
Demented CyberPunk--with guns--Invades Denver Movie Theater
(results are as expected)

jn1780
07-23-2012, 11:44 AM
Doesn't the government monitor our phone calls, emails, etc already? By setting off an alarm I mean why does a non police person need a full body suit for? What does a person need a 100 bullet clip for an AR15 for? If this was a Muslim people would be screaming wondering why this stuff wasn't reported. I do support when things like what I mentioned are bought the local police should be notified so they can at least be aware.

Hundreds and thousands of body armor suits, 100 round clips are sold every year, and your example of sending in a swat team is condescending and you know it.

I think you underestimate how much body armor, extended clips, assult rifles are sold in this country. And this number keeps growing as people see econonomic conditions across the globe deteriorate.

and a lot of times its just because its a hobby. Kind of like how someone doesn't need 4 sports cars in their barn.

RadicalModerate
07-23-2012, 11:53 AM
Is it ironic that as economic conditions across--or around--the globe deteriorate and prices increase for such things as guns, body armor, and so forth that "people"--for example, the Displaced So.Cal Cyberpunk Software Magnate Spawn--can fit those purchases into their tight budgets? Or whut?

Maybe "ironic" ain't the rite word.

BBatesokc
07-23-2012, 12:21 PM
Is it ironic that as economic conditions across--or around--the globe deteriorate and prices increase for such things as guns, body armor, and so forth that "people"--for example, the Displaced So.Cal Cyberpunk Software Magnate Spawn--can fit those purchases into their tight budgets? Or whut?

Maybe "ironic" ain't the rite word.

Actually, gun prices are apparently down in many instances (according to a Nightline piece). They say its due to oversupply. There are apparently enough guns in the USA to almost arm every man, woman, and child.

I do know from monitoring places like ArmsList, the prices on several assault type guns are down over a few years ago.

Jim Kyle
07-23-2012, 12:23 PM
Back in early 1953, when I bought my Colt Commander .45 to take to Korea as my sleeping-bag weapon, I had to obtain a permit to do so from the OKCPD before Andy Anderson's could sell it to me (for $65; current price is in three digits). My military ID and overseas orders made it a "no problem" situation, just a bit of paperwork. I had no problem with that, then or now. When that restriction was in place, we had far fewer clandestine handguns in the city. Gun shows didn't exist; private trading was on a one-to-one basis between people who at least knew each other by reputation.

After I came back from military service, I bought a .22 revolver on a .45 Peacemaker frame from a co-worker. And much later, after my two oldest sons reached the toy-gun phase of toddlerhood, I sold both guns to that same co-worker. He modified the revolver to take .45 blanks, for use in quick-draw competitions and in gunfights at Frontier City. Never heard what he did with the automatic.

IMO all that the Brady Bill and other federal regulations have accomplished is to drive such private transactions underground and make them less visible. Meanwhile the general permissive culture we've developed, together with the increased violence in all forms of entertainment, have given rise to much wider and less responsible use of weapons of all sorts, not just firearms...

It's the Darwin Award effect, but applies to an entire culture rather than to individuals. I'm sorta glad that I probably won't live long enough to see the end result!

Maynard
07-23-2012, 12:34 PM
Actually, gun prices are apparently down in many instances (according to a Nightline piece). They say its due to oversupply. There are apparently enough guns in the USA to almost arm every man, woman, and child.

I do know from monitoring places like ArmsList, the prices on several assault type guns are down over a few years ago.


Gun map

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8147/7615097278_4c63bc7399.jpg

Roadhawg
07-23-2012, 02:05 PM
I think you underestimate how much body armor, extended clips, assult rifles are sold in this country. And this number keeps growing as people see econonomic conditions across the globe deteriorate.

and a lot of times its just because its a hobby. Kind of like how someone doesn't need 4 sports cars in their barn.

Yeah I did forget about the far right survivalists out there who are paranoid about everything.

Roadhawg
07-23-2012, 02:13 PM
I'm on another message board and the big topic there is also how if the theater allowed CCW's this would have been prevented. It's sad that some actually believe that. I asked one guy, that I know, why he thought that and he said he could have taken the shooter out because he's good at hunting rabbits. If the situation wasn't so sad I would have laughed at him but all I did was ask him how many of them rabbits wore body armor, tossed tear gas and had AK's shooting back at him.

BBatesokc
07-23-2012, 02:37 PM
I'm on another message board and the big topic there is also how if the theater allowed CCW's this would have been prevented. It's sad that some actually believe that. I asked one guy, that I know, why he thought that and he said he could have taken the shooter out because he's good at hunting rabbits. If the situation wasn't so sad I would have laughed at him but all I did was ask him how many of them rabbits wore body armor, tossed tear gas and had AK's shooting back at him.

You no more know what could or could not have plausibly happened in that theatre with citizens with C&C than I or anyone else. I wouldn't assert it would have absolutely made a difference, but I still believe I'd like the option as opposed to the only option left to the victims (to be killed while cowering or fleeing).

If someone told you two thugs were going to rob a pretty full Internet cafe and I told you a 72 year old would be there with his C&C, you'd most likely proclaim he wouldn't be able or willing to make a difference, but we know how that turned out.

Roadhawg
07-23-2012, 02:46 PM
You no more know what could or could not have plausibly happened in that theatre with citizens with C&C than I or anyone else. I wouldn't assert it would have absolutely made a difference, but I still believe I'd like the option as opposed to the only option left to the victims (to be killed while cowering or fleeing).

If someone told you two thugs were going to rob a pretty full Internet cafe and I told you a 72 year old would be there with his C&C, you'd most likely proclaim he wouldn't be able or willing to make a difference, but we know how that turned out.

Once again that 72 year old wasn't in a dark room, he wasn't choking on tear gas, the bad guy wasn't in full body armor and shooting at him with a high powered automatic weapon. To say the two are the same condition is pure ignorance.

Jim Kyle
07-23-2012, 02:48 PM
... the only option left to the victims (to be killed while cowering or fleeing).You left out another option, that nobody took: the choice made by the passengers on United Flight 93.

They died, yes, but in doing so they prevented many additional deaths. Something similar MIGHT have happened in Aurora, but apparently nobody tried...

OKCTalker
07-23-2012, 03:02 PM
There may have been armed citizens in the theater who were frozen with fear or unable to take a clear shot. Either reason for not shooting would be understandable given the situation - they're caught totally off-guard while watching a movie, it's a noisy, dark environment, a chemical agent is deployed, and suddenly everyone is screaming and running who isn't already injured or dead on the floor or slumped in their seats. In fact, the armed citizen might be injured as well.

Roadhawg
07-23-2012, 03:14 PM
Both Jim and OKC have good points. I think the people on United Flight 93 had more time to come up with a plan though.

hrdware
07-23-2012, 04:00 PM
Once again that 72 year old wasn't in a dark room, he wasn't choking on tear gas, the bad guy wasn't in full body armor and shooting at him with a high powered automatic weapon. To say the two are the same condition is pure ignorance.

It wasn't an automatic weapon. It was a semi-automatic assault rifle.

HewenttoJared
07-23-2012, 04:45 PM
Both Jim and OKC have good points. I think the people on United Flight 93 had more time to come up with a plan though.

Yep. Not really comparable situations.

Roadhawg
07-23-2012, 07:47 PM
It wasn't an automatic weapon. It was a semi-automatic assault rifle.

My bad.... one had a small handgun and the other had a semi-automatic assault rifle, a shotgun and a 40 cal. semi auto pistol.

spursfaninoklahoma
07-23-2012, 09:20 PM
my heart goes out to the victims, but this could happen anywhere at anytime. Pick a place, the mall, the grocery store, the public library. crazy travels

BBatesokc
07-23-2012, 09:26 PM
Once again that 72 year old wasn't in a dark room, he wasn't choking on tear gas, the bad guy wasn't in full body armor and shooting at him with a high powered automatic weapon. To say the two are the same condition is pure ignorance.

Did I say the two were comparable? I CLEARLY presented the scenario as one many people would have thought the actual outcome was unlikely (that's the only similarity). I never said the two exact situations were comparable.

ljbab728
07-23-2012, 10:29 PM
So, if I dropped to my knees wailing and then wondered out loud about adding one or more citizens with guns to the discussion - then it would have been acceptable to you? Get over it - You are no more qualified to determine my level of sentiment based on some words in a thread then anyone else and you're quite the simpleton to forward that idea.

You're the one who needs to get over himself. When you want people to believe your level of sentiment you need to do something to exhibit the same. You make your main level of concern quite clear in your posts unless you do an unbelievable job of hiding what you think. (And I've never seen you showing that trait)

Roadhawg
07-24-2012, 08:17 AM
Did I say the two were comparable? I CLEARLY presented the scenario as one many people would have thought the actual outcome was unlikely (that's the only similarity). I never said the two exact situations were comparable.

Yes you did when you said "If someone told you two thugs were going to rob a pretty full Internet cafe and I told you a 72 year old would be there with his C&C, you'd most likely proclaim he wouldn't be able or willing to make a difference, but we know how that turned out. "

RadicalModerate
07-24-2012, 08:28 AM
I watched the video clip of the killer's court appearance.
Someone needs to check and see if this guy has a chip implanted in his brain.
Seriously.

Roadhawg
07-24-2012, 08:35 AM
He looked pretty out of it. I wondered if he was coming down off something or if they gave him some meds.

Just the facts
07-25-2012, 03:06 PM
The day Hollywood woke up and realized they are actually a big part of the problem.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/dark-knight-rises-shooting-peter-bogdanovich-353774


Legendary Director Peter Bogdanovich: What If Movies Are Part of the Problem?

The director of "Targets" says: "People go to a movie to have a good time, and they get killed. … It makes me sick that I made a movie about it."

...

It was meant to be a cautionary fable. It was a way of saying the Boris Karloff kind of violence, the Victorian violence of the past, wasn't as scary as the kind of random violence that we associate with a sniper -- or what happened last weekend. That's modern horror. At first, some of the people [at The Dark Knight Rises] thought it was part of the movie. That's very telling.

...

Obviously, there is violence in the world, and you have to deal with it. But there are other ways to do it without showing people getting blown up. One of the most horrible movies ever made was Fritz Lang's M, about a child murderer. But he didn't show the murder of the child. The child is playing with a rubber ball and a balloon. When the killer takes her behind the bushes, we see the ball roll out from the bushes. And then he cuts to the balloon flying up into the sky. Everybody who sees it feels a different kind of chill up their back, a horrible feeling. So this argument that you have to have violence shown in gory details is not true. It's much more artistic to show it in a different way.

Today, there's a general numbing of the audience. There's too much murder and killing. You make people insensitive by showing it all the time. The body count in pictures is huge. It numbs the audience into thinking it's not so terrible. Back in the '70s, I asked Orson Welles what he thought was happening to pictures, and he said, "We're brutalizing the audience. We're going to end up like the Roman circus, live at the Coliseum." The respect for human life seems to be eroding.

bretthexum
07-25-2012, 03:08 PM
So guns don't kill people, movies do?

Just the facts
07-25-2012, 03:13 PM
So guns don't kill people, movies do?

No, people kill people. The gun is just the tool of choice for the criminal. Would you feel better if they used knives, bombs, or their bare hands? Guns have been around for 600 years with ownership at much higher levels than today, so why has everything gone to pot in the last 40 years?

Roadhawg
07-25-2012, 03:23 PM
No, people kill people. The gun is just the tool of choice for the criminal. Would you feel better if they used knives, bombs, or their bare hands? Guns have been around for 600 years with ownership at much higher levels than today, so why has everything gone to pot in the last 40 years?

Isn't that when Republicans took over the Congress?

kevinpate
07-25-2012, 03:32 PM
... so why has everything gone to pot in the last 40 years?

Too many end days prophets sapping the souls of mankind?

Of Sound Mind
07-25-2012, 03:38 PM
Isn't that when Republicans took over the Congress?
Since the 92nd Congress that began in 1971:
• 11 terms (22 years) of total Democratic control of Congress
• 5 terms (10 years) of total Republican control of Congress
• 5 terms (10 years) of split control of Congress

So, how much of the last 40 years was due to Republican control?


Disclosure: I am a formerly registered Republican and currently registered Independent.

Just the facts
07-25-2012, 03:45 PM
Progress?

Batman in 1968
http://www.worldtvpc.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/adam-west-batman.jpg

Batman in 2012
http://www.musicrooms.net/files/movies-650/Batman_2_Dark_Knight_Rises_666824183.jpg

HewenttoJared
07-25-2012, 03:56 PM
No, people kill people. The gun is just the tool of choice for the criminal. Would you feel better if they used knives, bombs, or their bare hands? Guns have been around for 600 years with ownership at much higher levels than today, so why has everything gone to pot in the last 40 years?

Yes, I would prefer that they use knives or bombs. How have things "gone to pot" in the last 40 years. Violent crime stats are on a pretty good arc at the moment...

MikeOKC
07-25-2012, 08:37 PM
Once again, it's about culture. I was glad to see the Bogdanovich piece and it's worth thinking long and hard about. I think what Orson Welles told him was pretty accurate. Throw in the rise of the violent video games that are no more than interactive movies (now complete with their own soundtracks for sale) and who knows what the future will bring? The envelope of culture is being pushed to be more violent, angry and intolerant (from all sides) and I fear for the future. And yes, I would have said the same thing before Aurora. Some things just put exclamation marks on cultural decline and James Holmes did just that this past weekend.

Maynard
07-25-2012, 11:19 PM
Anaheim police open fire and use K-9 on women and children

Q8Y0uWycuZ8



In a response to a protest against a police shooting the police respond with extreme use of force and police brutality on innocent citizens. Sat July 21st 2012 in Anaheim, California.

Copyright Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use.

Just the facts
07-25-2012, 11:26 PM
Why do you bring your kids to a situation like that? The parents should all be charged with child endangerment.

Maynard
07-25-2012, 11:28 PM
Why do you bring your kids to a situation like that? The parents should all be charged with child endangerment.

If only everyone lived and stayed within 'their' urban utopia, right?

Just the facts
07-25-2012, 11:35 PM
If only everyone lived and stayed within 'their' urban utopia, right?

I guess my paternal instinct is to NOT take my kids where something bad has a very high chance of happening. The message is simple - don't bring kids to a gun fight (unless they have their own gun). That is parenting 101 stuff.

Who says, "Gather the kids up and let's go see the riot." You know me Maynard, I'm not opposed to a show of force against oppressive government, but I'm not bringing my kids with me.

ljbab728
07-25-2012, 11:41 PM
Maynard, that's certainly a noteworthy story and I understand why you posted it. I think we're starting to stray a little from the focus on the Colorado tragedy though.

It's not suprising that lawsuits are already in the works. I'm not sure that all of the points in the lawsuit will fly.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/first-lawsuit-filed-in-colorado-movie-theater-massacre-30090603.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fus-15749625%252Ffirst-lawsuit-filed-in-colorado-movie-theater-massacre-30090603.html

ljbab728
07-26-2012, 12:08 AM
A good news story from this.

http://news.yahoo.com/3-hospitals-wipe-limit-medical-bills-colorado-movie-004009848.html



And three of the five hospitals that treated victims said Wednesday they will limit or completely wipe out medical bills.


Children's Hospital Colorado announced it would use donations and its charity care fund to cover the medical expenses of the uninsured. For those who do have insurance, the hospital says it will waive all co-pays.

"We are committed to supporting these families as they heal," according to a statement from the hospital, which treated six shooting victims.

HealthOne, which owns the Medical Center of Aurora and Swedish Medical Center, also says it will limit or eliminate charges based on the individual circumstances of the patients. Those hospitals have treated 22 shooting victims. However, the company cautioned its policy may not apply to all doctors working in its hospitals.

Dubya61
07-26-2012, 10:38 AM
From the yahoo article: three of the five hospitals that treated victims said Wednesday they will limit or completely wipe out medical bills.

Children's Hospital Colorado announced it would use donations and its charity care fund to cover the medical expenses of the uninsured. For those who do have insurance, the hospital says it will waive all co-pays.
"We are committed to supporting these families as they heal," according to a statement from the hospital, which treated six shooting victims.
HealthOne, which owns the Medical Center of Aurora and Swedish Medical Center, also says it will limit or eliminate charges based on the individual circumstances of the patients. Those hospitals have treated 22 shooting victims. However, the company cautioned its policy may not apply to all doctors working in its hospitals.

First: Yes this was a tragedy and I feel sorry for the victims, but ...
Second: Wow, what great PR on the part of the hospitals. I guess medicine is really big business and it's good to do good PR, eh?