FORWARD FOODS left central Norman for the west side and NATIVE ROOTS left centeral Norman for OKC. Both of these entities share the same demo that WF attracts, so it must not be a place to sell groceries.

I hope the second Whole Foods location goes to Edmond or Gaillardia OKC. The far Northside is in pretty sad shape grocery wise. The situation is much better in Norman and SW OKC.

FORWARD FOODS left central Norman for the west side and NATIVE ROOTS left centeral Norman for OKC. Both of these entities share the same demo that WF attracts, so it must not be a place to sell groceries.

Yep, it's not!
Central Norman could not support a Whole Foods for long.

Somewhere near I-35 would be the its best location because it would be closest to Norman biggest number of wealth citizens by far but also be much easier to attract the wealthy from other near by community's who commute, some of which commute daily up and down I-35.

But I have a hard time believing that a full scale Whole Foods would find the Norman demographics attractive at this point and time.

FORWARD FOODS left central Norman for the west side and NATIVE ROOTS left centeral Norman for OKC. Both of these entities share the same demo that WF attracts, so it must not be a place to sell groceries.

A Whole Foods development would have to be part of a larger urban redevelopment of the area, perhaps in conjunction with the commuter rail station once that gets under way.


I hope the second Whole Foods location goes to Edmond or Gaillardia OKC. The far Northside is in pretty sad shape grocery wise. The situation is much better in Norman and SW OKC.

This is the Norman forum. :-P They are already in NW OKC...if other grocers found it bad to do busy further out into Sprawlburbia, that's the problem people who choose to move out there need to deal with or move in closer.


Yep, it's not!
Central Norman could not support a Whole Foods for long.

Somewhere near I-35 would be the its best location because it would be closest to Norman biggest number of wealth citizens by far but also be much easier to attract the wealthy from other near by community's who commute, some of which commute daily up and down I-35.

But I have a hard time believing that a full scale Whole Foods would find the Norman demographics attractive at this point and time.

As I stated, it would need to be part of a bigger project with higher density housing and everything. Whole Foods isn't going to support itself in that area. Being 2 miles down Main Street or Lindsey isn't going to disenfranchise those suffering wealthy people who decided to move out of the city's core. There would be no reason for Whole Foods to get into the bloodbath of all the grocery stores infecting NW Norman now.

There would be no reason for Whole Foods to get into the bloodbath of all the grocery stores infecting NW Norman now.

But it wouldn't be near ou48A so that's a non starter.

There would be no reason for Whole Foods to get into the bloodbath of all the grocery stores infecting NW Norman now.

Their target market isn't the normal run of the mill Norman grocery store shopper.
The central core of Norman will never have enough of the higher end shoppers to support a Whole Foods. With the interstate drivers west Norman might someday have a chance.

But what would be far more realistic to see in Norman is a something a long the lines of a Market Street grocery store with more affordable prices but still up scale compared what we have now.

But it wouldn't be near ou48A so that's a non starter.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the reality of the situation?

Their target market isn't the normal run of the mill Norman grocery store shopper.
The central core of Norman will never have enough of the higher end shoppers to support a Whole Foods. With the interstate drivers west Norman might someday have a chance.

But what would be far more realistic to see in Norman is a something a long the lines of a Market Street grocery store with more affordable prices but still up scale compared what we have now.

Any Whole Foods in Norman would be part of a longer term strategy to continue the growth of high income folks moving into Central Norman. The values of the homes on Lindsey specifically are comparable to higher than several areas in West Norman. Including it in a development closer to the core of Norman will continue to permit the increasing density of the urban core and allow it to continue to grow.

Any Whole Foods in Norman would be part of a longer term strategy to continue the growth of high income folks moving into Central Norman. The values of the homes on Lindsey specifically are comparable to higher than several areas in West Norman. Including it in a development closer to the core of Norman will continue to permit the increasing density of the urban core and allow it to continue to grow.

The core of Normans problem is that there isn't nearly enough people with the disposable income that is required for a Whole Foods and there isn't nearly enough vacant land to expand the numbers by anything close to the amounts needed.

This demographic comes much closer to being met in west Norman.... Particularly when you consider the disposable income that drives by on I-35 that lives out of town. The city of Norman could gain sales tax dollars from these out of town folks just like they do from other west Norman business.

The business core of Norman is in west Norman and primarily with in ½ mile of I-35 and that's not going to be changing.

The core of Normans problem is that there isn't nearly enough people with the disposable income that is required for a Whole Foods and there isn't nearly enough vacant land to expand the numbers by anything close to the amounts needed.

This demographic comes much closer to being met in west Norman.... Particularly when you consider the disposable income that drives by on I-35 that lives out of town. The city of Norman could gain sales tax dollars from these out of town folks just like they do from other west Norman business.

The business core of Norman is in west Norman and primarily with in ½ mile of I-35 and that's not going to be changing.

I will say this, Lincoln, Nebraska is getting a Whole Foods...so saying that Norman's demographics couldn't support a Whole Foods is pure poppycock.

The core of Normans problem is that there isn't nearly enough people with the disposable income that is required for a Whole Foods and there isn't nearly enough vacant land to expand the numbers by anything close to the amounts needed.

This demographic comes much closer to being met in west Norman.... Particularly when you consider the disposable income that drives by on I-35 that lives out of town. The city of Norman could gain sales tax dollars from these out of town folks just like they do from other west Norman business.

The business core of Norman is in west Norman and primarily with in ½ mile of I-35 and that's not going to be changing.

The further west you get, the less dense the population gets. Apparently I'm talking to a wall though. As I've said...a Whole Foods in Norman would be in conjunction with other high density developments that would further increase the amount of wealth going into Central Norman.

I would be interested to see the numbers of people who drive on I-44 from out of town that stop at Whole Foods. I'm not really holding my breath on people from Purcell stopping to pick up groceries. The best solution is to have a chain like this in a high density development area. This would definitely be a long term project and not something immediately.

To tag on to what Trey said about the Lincoln location...

Whole Foods officially announces Lincoln store : Business (http://journalstar.com/business/local/whole-foods-officially-announces-lincoln-store/article_ae801762-8bd8-5b49-b905-a2fb18d5bdb8.html)

The Lincoln store will be at 59th and O St. or roughly 4 miles from I-180 and 6 miles from I-80. The area it is going in is also filled with mostly $110-$160K value homes...much less than what you'll find in the area I've been discussing. It is however right by Gateway Mall. Regardless, a lot of your concerns are being completely contradicted by what they are doing in Lincoln.

Boulder, CO (which is not near an interstate) has a Whole Foods as well. Boulder also has a smaller population than Norman. It's also obviously a college city.

I will say this, Lincoln, Nebraska is getting a Whole Foods...so saying that Norman's demographics couldn't support a Whole Foods is pure poppycock.

Jackson, MS is getting one as well. All the money in Jackson is in the suburbs, but the WF's will be right off of I-55 in a high foot traffic shopping center.

Boulder, CO (which is not near an interstate) has a Whole Foods as well. Boulder also has a smaller population than Norman. It's also obviously a college city.

that was a wild oats .. which whole foods bought ..(also how tulsa got their first WF) wild oats started in boulder ...

that was a wild oats .. which whole foods bought ..(also how tulsa got their first WF) wild oats started in boulder ...

It would appear that Wild Oats has proven smaller markets can work and WF is using that experience by expanding to markets like Lincoln, NE.

The further west you get, the less dense the population gets. Apparently I'm talking to a wall though. As I've said... a Whole Foods in Norman would be in conjunction with other high density developments that would further increase the amount of wealth going into Central Norman. .

Yes you have said that, but where are you going to be doing this development?

The land just isn't available in the core of Norman for enough of the high density development that you talk about... But then I already said that....It feels like I'm talking to a wall. Also much of the current housing is sub standard rental property that would not attract very many in the higher income brackets.

Sometimes fact are what they are and in this case the growth and easy access to business will continue to be centered along and near I-35 for many decades to come...... Unless we have a major EF5 tornado.:mad:

Yes you have said that, but where are you going to be doing this development?

Lindsey Street, with the new design is one possibility. Another option would be near Downtown or near Campus Corner near a new commuter rail + high density development on Boyd. Obviously this would require *SOME* removal of existing structures, but nothing that wouldn't pay off in the end.


The land just isn't available in the core of Norman for enough of the high density development that you talk about... But then I already said that....It feels like I'm talking to a wall. Also much of the current housing is sub standard rental property that would not attract very many in the higher income brackets.

I really wonder just how someone can completely shut themselves off from reality on property values along Lindsey. Please go look at Zillow and property values along Lindsey and stop making a fool out of yourself. I'm sure those people on Lindsey east of Berry who have home values $200K to $500K (even one over $900K) would love to hear how they are in substandard rental housing right now. Over the last 10 years a lot of these properties have increased in value over 30%. That highlights the potential that exists in that area and the people that are attracted to living in that area.


Sometimes fact are what they are and in this case the growth and easy access to business will continue to be centered along and near I-35 for many decades to come...... Unless we have a major EF5 tornado.:mad:

Agree...facts are what they are, why you continue to keep ignoring them is beyond me. It is also interesting that the only high profile (most discussed) high density development is for Central Norman near Campus Corner. Everything else has been just your random apartment complexes except for a couple other developments - such as the more urban designs at Lindsey and 12th SE.

Lindsey Street, with the new design is one possibility. Another option would be near Downtown or near Campus Corner near a new commuter rail + high density development on Boyd. Obviously this would require *SOME* removal of existing structures, but nothing that wouldn't pay off in the end.


I really wonder just how someone can completely shut themselves off from reality on property values along Lindsey. Please go look at Zillow and property values along Lindsey and stop making a fool out of yourself. I'm sure those people on Lindsey east of Berry who have home values $200K to $500K (even one over $900K) would love to hear how they are in substandard rental housing right now. Over the last 10 years a lot of these properties have increased in value over 30%. That highlights the potential that exists in that area and the people that are attracted to living in that area.



Agree...facts are what they are, why you continue to keep ignoring them is beyond me. It is also interesting that the only high profile (most discussed) high density development is for Central Norman near Campus Corner. Everything else has been just your random apartment complexes except for a couple other developments - such as the more urban designs at Lindsey and 12th SE.


Kind of like the removal of a few mostly run down house on the north side of Lindsey street to make way for 4 lanes, wide sidewalk and bike paths.....
Its nothing that wouldn’t pay off in the end.

Just how many of those nicer homes exist along Lindsey Street that have home values $200K to $500K. Just a guess, but its not very many in total,,,, and all most all are on the south side of the street. Its funny how easily impressed you are with such a small scale.

In the western one third of Norman, by a very large factor, there are many times more homes with similar property values compared to whats along this part of Lindsey Street. And there are more than a few one million dollar + homes. These are the areas where most of Norman new home growth is occurring.

There are real reasons why we have seen the great bulk of retail business development along the interstate. It's because experts who have this stuff down to a science know that it will give there business the best rate of return on their investment dollar.

I can't speak to all of west Norman but property values in my part of town have easily exceed a 30% growth rate in the past 10 years and generally come with out many of the problems that exist in the core of Norman.

Kind of like the removal of a few mostly run down house on the north side of Lindsey street to make way for 4 lanes, wide sidewalk and bike paths.....
Its nothing that wouldn’t pay off in the end.

Just how many of those nicer homes exist along Lindsey Street that have home values $200K to $500K. Just a guess, but its not very many in total,,,, and all most all are on the south side of the street. Its funny how easily impressed you are with such a small scale.

Here I did the work for you already in another thread that you unfortunately overlooked: http://www.okctalk.com/norman/22921-ou-projects-7.html#post665916

Just drop down Lindsey again this afternoon and you really have no idea about that area, so keep on digging. :)



In the western one third of Norman, by a very large factor, there are many times more homes with similar property values compared to whats along this part of Lindsey Street. And there are more than a few one million dollar + homes. These are the areas where most of Norman new home growth is occurring.

This is also in suburban developments with ZERO sense of any density at all. Again, if you like that thing more power to you. However, you aren't going to convert the bedroom community/suburbiaville people out there to move towards any type of high density neighborhood. Look at the dozen of McMansion owners that whined about an apartment complex up there.


There are real reasons why we have seen the great bulk of retail business development along the interstate. It's because experts who have this stuff down to a science know that it will give there business the best rate of return on their investment dollar.

Obviously retail is going to be along the interstate...especially when the primary development is going to be a strip mall setup. However, outside of the TIF backed area of UNP, there really hasn't been all that extensive on development outside of the infill areas right along 35.


I can't speak to all of west Norman but property values in my part of town have easily exceed a 30% growth rate in the past 10 years and generally come with out many of the problems that exist in the core of Norman.

This is the beautiful thing about Zillow. You get to see value trends for the last 10 years! So let's pick a random house that is over $200K in this area off of Tecumseh and 36th NW, since once you get away from that block the comparison gets a bit too unfair. Since logically the value growth would exceed 30% because 10 years ago the area was being inhabited by cows and not humans. :)

Value in 2003 - $195k...Value today - $220k...Not quite a 30% jump.

Another was $155K at the time, it sold for $171k a couple years back and is now valued at $174k. Still not getting to that 30%

I grabbed a 3rd one...$574k in 2003, now $672k...it was new construction in 2003 so hasn't been resold yet, but that's still not 30%.

Please do some research. All the tools are out there free for you to use. Better understanding of the areas that will be impacted by developments like these higher density projects will go a long way in you understand why people are wanting certain things. I understand not visiting these areas often, or living in the areas, can mean that knowledge of what is actually going on there is going to be lacking...but the information is out there, it has been presented many times already, it is just a matter of actually accepting it versus having selective memory to hope a point sticks.

Here I did the work for you already in another thread that you unfortunately overlooked: http://www.okctalk.com/norman/22921-ou-projects-7.html#post665916

Just drop down Lindsey again this afternoon and you really have no idea about that area, so keep on digging. :)

.


This is also in suburban developments with ZERO sense of any density at all. Again, if you like that thing more power to you. However, you aren't going to convert the bedroom community/suburbiaville people out there to move towards any type of high density neighborhood. Look at the dozen of McMansion owners that whined about an apartment complex up there.



Obviously retail is going to be along the interstate...especially when the primary development is going to be a strip mall setup. However, outside of the TIF backed area of UNP, there really hasn't been all that extensive on development outside of the infill areas right along 35.



This is the beautiful thing about Zillow. You get to see value trends for the last 10 years! So let's pick a random house that is over $200K in this area off of Tecumseh and 36th NW, since once you get away from that block the comparison gets a bit too unfair. Since logically the value growth would exceed 30% because 10 years ago the area was being inhabited by cows and not humans. :)

Value in 2003 - $195k...Value today - $220k...Not quite a 30% jump.

Another was $155K at the time, it sold for $171k a couple years back and is now valued at $174k. Still not getting to that 30%

I grabbed a 3rd one...$574k in 2003, now $672k...it was new construction in 2003 so hasn't been resold yet, but that's still not 30%.

Please do some research. All the tools are out there free for you to use. Better understanding of the areas that will be impacted by developments like these higher density projects will go a long way in you understand why people are wanting certain things. I understand not visiting these areas often, or living in the areas, can mean that knowledge of what is actually going on there is going to be lacking...but the information is out there, it has been presented many times already, it is just a matter of actually accepting it versus having selective memory to hope a point sticks.

There are many west side Norman homes of moderately high value that were build well before 10 years ago.....Including many with in ½ mile or so of NW 36th and Tecumseh.

There are many west side Norman homes of moderately high value that were build well before 10 years ago.....Including many with in ½ mile or so of NW 36th and Tecumseh.

Did I say otherwise? Nope. Just that if you go much further north or west they weren't there 10 years ago...Google Earth is a good tool to show that quickly. Please actually read what I write...it is getting quite evident that you don't.

Obviously retail is going to be along the interstate...especially when the primary development is going to be a strip mall setup. However, outside of the TIF backed area of UNP, there really hasn't been all that extensive on development outside of the infill areas right along 35.
.

I guess you don't remember the mall and all the business that exist at depth to the south and in that general area.
Much of this was built in the 80's and before. This is close to the largest concentrations of Norman money.... and it attracts many people off the interstate.

In many cases business wants to move where the money is. Without bulldozing good size chunks of land in the core of Norman the amount of wealth needed to build anything on very large scale is not very likely.

Even if you had the land.... where are the mass of great jobs going to exist in the core Norman that it would take to create the demand to redevelop the core of Norman. What type of jobs would these be?

You are falling into the trap of putting an idealistic cart before the horse on more than one front.
Unfortunately Norman has a strong anti growth faction, they would fight anything like you want tooth and nail.

UNP would have been a good spot for it before Crest. Who knows, maybe it'll still work. They could put it in Crest's parking lot and continue their duality trend.

Another good spot for it would have been at 36th and Rock Creek... where they are building the new Walmart Neighborhood Market. The reality is the area just west of there is the only large concentration of not just million, but multi-million dollar homes in Norman. There's a gated community full of them in that area, and the newer portion of Brookhaven across the street from there that contains houses 600k+. Along 48th further west are several new additions with homes starting at 400k that are building up now. They're as big as any other neighborhood in Norman. In addition, Brookhaven has a lot of similarities and densities to Nichols Hills, especially further to the south and west of there but still easily within a half mile radius. Also there are many additions north of Norman in the Moore "no mans land" that would likely have homeowners with the demographics Whole Foods is looking for.

Having lived in both east and west Norman I just don't think there is an area east that could support it today. But yes maybe "some day" for east Norman with the right type of redevelopments, but that can really be said of anyplace.

If I were Whole Foods though I'd probably be ignoring Norman and looking for a spot in Edmond. Sorry.

Another way to state it is in terms of zip codes. 73071 vs. 73072:

73071 Zip Code (Norman, Oklahoma) Profile - homes, apartments, schools, population, income, averages, housing, demographics, location, statistics, sex offenders, residents and real estate info (http://www.city-data.com/zips/73071.html)

73072 Zip Code (Norman, Oklahoma) Profile - homes, apartments, schools, population, income, averages, housing, demographics, location, statistics, sex offenders, residents and real estate info (http://www.city-data.com/zips/73072.html)


73072 has more people, with almost double the personal median AGI, with higher household incomes, with more total houses, living in more expensive houses, with a higher percentage of those houses having been paid off and free and clear of a mortgage. There are also more people in the zip code that likely fall within the key demographics that WF is looking for.

Edmond looks even better on paper:

73003 Zip Code (Edmond, Oklahoma) Profile - homes, apartments, schools, population, income, averages, housing, demographics, location, statistics, sex offenders, residents and real estate info (http://www.city-data.com/zips/73003.html)

Now maybe the numbers don't tell the whole story, but I'm guessing this is exactly the kind of data the scouts are looking at....

73072 has more people, with almost double the personal median AGI, with higher household incomes, with more total houses, living in more expensive houses, with a higher percentage of those houses having been paid off and free and clear of a mortgage. There are also more people in the zip code that likely fall within the key demographics that WF is looking for.

Now maybe the numbers don't tell the whole story, but I'm guessing this is exactly the kind of data the scouts are looking at....

In case you missed it...Whole Foods is opening up in Lincoln, NE. So if we go by your logic...their demo doesn't even fit was WF is looking for...even though they are building there.

68510 Zip Code (Lincoln, Nebraska) Profile - homes, apartments, schools, population, income, averages, housing, demographics, location, statistics, sex offenders, residents and real estate info (http://www.city-data.com/zips/68510.html)

Putting WF in 73071 isn't going to stop people from crossing over...however, the location I proposed as one option is in 73072 (Lindsey & Berry). let's also not discount that there is HIGHER median household incomes, using your source, in the area from McGee to Pickard and south of Lindsey than you will find north of Rock Creek is West Norman. In fact, with your source, the only area that is higher than the Central Norman location is Brookhaven - which is not unexpected at all.

I heard a rumor that Whole Foods was seriously scouting Norman about a year ago. Apparently, what they really wanted was to take over the spot occupied by Wright's IGA at the intersection of Main Street and 36th. It seems like that location would have made a lot of sense for them; however, I would love to see them take over where Homeland is on Main Street near Flood. That would be centrally located. We need to get rid of some of our substandard grocery stores in Norman, and that Homeland store certainly fits.

I heard a rumor that Whole Foods was seriously scouting Norman about a year ago. Apparently, what they really wanted was to take over the spot occupied by Wright's IGA at the intersection of Main Street and 36th. It seems like that location would have made a lot of sense for them; however, I would love to see them take over where Homeland is on Main Street near Flood. That would be centrally located. We need to get rid of some of our substandard grocery stores in Norman, and that Homeland store certainly fits.

Completely agree that we need to see Homeland on Main replaced. It is just an eyesore. I think it might be better if we see it go in maybe around Main and Flood or at least in that section of Main Street to help anchor the west side of downtown redevelopment. Of course we also need to look at improving Flood Street down to Main. That area hasn't seen the meteoric rise in property values that we've seen in other areas of discussion, so it would provide a good jolt. Most properties are stuck in the $60-90k range, a couple over $100k. Property values only up maybe 10-15% (in 10 years) which is average for most of Norman, so the area could use a good kick in the pants.

In case you missed it...Whole Foods is opening up in Lincoln, NE. So if we go by your logic...their demo doesn't even fit was WF is looking for...even though they are building there.

68510 Zip Code (Lincoln, Nebraska) Profile - homes, apartments, schools, population, income, averages, housing, demographics, location, statistics, sex offenders, residents and real estate info (http://www.city-data.com/zips/68510.html)

Putting WF in 73071 isn't going to stop people from crossing over...however, the location I proposed as one option is in 73072 (Lindsey & Berry). let's also not discount that there is HIGHER median household incomes, using your source, in the area from McGee to Pickard and south of Lindsey than you will find north of Rock Creek is West Norman. In fact, with your source, the only area that is higher than the Central Norman location is Brookhaven - which is not unexpected at all.

So let me be real blunt: I don't appreciate disingenuous arguments. Here are the facts about Lincoln: the city has 29 zip codes. The zip code the new Whole Foods is going in is 68516. It's a development similar to UNP, surrounded by nice neighborhoods. Here is that zip code's data:

68516 Zip Code (Lincoln, Nebraska) Profile - homes, apartments, schools, population, income, averages, housing, demographics, location, statistics, sex offenders, residents and real estate info (http://www.city-data.com/zips/68516.html)

These stats are considerably better than Edmond....

Also while I agree that there are very nice parts of the east side, the number of those houses is much smaller than on the west side. Knowing one or two of the owners of such places, I can tell you that your argument that incomes over there are higher may not ring true. Remember what data is collected... Someone that has a net worth into the millions of dollars may not have much in terms of real income. So that isn't going to show up in most types of data these companies are looking at.

So let me be real blunt: I don't appreciate disingenuous arguments. Here are the facts about Lincoln: the city has 29 zip codes. The zip code the new Whole Foods is going in is 68516. It's a development similar to UNP, surrounded by nice neighborhoods. Here is that zip code's data:

68516 Zip Code (Lincoln, Nebraska) Profile - homes, apartments, schools, population, income, averages, housing, demographics, location, statistics, sex offenders, residents and real estate info (http://www.city-data.com/zips/68516.html)

These stats are considerably better than Edmond....

Who is being disingenuous?

Whole Foods officially announces Lincoln store : Business (http://journalstar.com/business/local/whole-foods-officially-announces-lincoln-store/article_ae801762-8bd8-5b49-b905-a2fb18d5bdb8.html)


But she said Whole Foods felt it was important to participate in Tuesday’s groundbreaking for the development at 59th and O streets that will include the store and the new Lincoln Public Schools District headquarters.

That is roughly 5 miles north of the zip code you linked above. So in reality, a central Norman location would be well with in those boundaries.


Also while I agree that there are very nice parts of the east side, the number of those houses is much smaller than on the west side. Knowing one or two of the owners of such places, I can tell you that your argument that incomes over there are higher may not ring true. Remember what data is collected... Someone that has a net worth into the millions of dollars may not have much in terms of real income. So that isn't going to show up in most types of data these companies are looking at.

I also don't understand why you are fixated on east side. I would expect WF to be in the 73072 (which runs east of 35 along and south or Lindsey to Classen) or 73069 (central Norman) zip code...which happens to go all the way east to Classen/Porter.

Thank you for the new information, that is a different location than I thought. So what I just now did was I pulled up a google map of that area. There is a McDonalds at 6500 O. Street. It's zip code is listed as 68505, which means we are both incorrect. Mine was a mistake, I'll make the assumption yours was too. Here are the stats for 68505:

68505 Zip Code (Lincoln, Nebraska) Profile - homes, apartments, schools, population, income, averages, housing, demographics, location, statistics, sex offenders, residents and real estate info (http://www.city-data.com/zips/68505.html)

Median income is still nearly twice 73071. Most of this data is more consistent with 73072. Which makes more sense to me just purely from a marketing standpoint. So what is your disagreement with my thought here... Do you not think that this is data representative of what they are looking at, do you think I am misrepresenting 73071, or do you think income levels don't matter as much as what I am thinking? What is your argument?

When I said east side earlier, to be consistent with everything else in my discussion I should have really said "zip codes other than 73072." So maybe that wasn't apparent, I thought it probably was, but I could see where that might not have been. So that being said, when you are talking about places over by Berry, which I agree are technically the west side as everything west of Porter by definition is, it is in a different zip code than the one I was mentioning. So that area is either 73069 or 73019 depending on what part of Berry we are talking about right? 73019 is just terrible... Their AGI is like 25k per year. 73069 is 42k. Still no where near 73072's average AGI of 67k. Or Edmond/73003's 68k.

Venture I'm not trying to crap on those other zip codes, I'm really not, I just don't see the economic benefit to WF where WF happens to build there. Tell me what I'm missing... What is the argument you are making that trumps AGI?

So I thought my argument was pretty clear, but let me restate it. I think if WF opened a location in Norman, I think that they would do it based on income level data and that the only place that looks attractive is 73072. Or, they might locate in UNP regardless of that kind of data due to its location and surrounding amenities (which is in 73069, but I can't really see them locating anywhere else in that zip code).

Now you said something in your last post somewhat similar, so maybe we are violently agreeing now. But I thought what you were getting at was that you thought downtown Norman/73071 was where it should go. Am I mistaken? If that's where you are coming from, help me see how that happens....

Also I want to say if you look at the places where WF normally locates, those zip's have median AGIs well above 90k. It's not an absolute but its true more often then not, at least of the ones I have been to while traveling that I've thought to check on. Sometimes I don't know if folks here really understand how much lower high end wages are compared to other typical cities. Cost of living here is really not much different then many Texas cities, many of which have top end zip codes with average AGIs over 130k....

Thank you for the new information, that is a different location than I thought. So what I just now did was I pulled up a google map of that area. There is a McDonalds at 6500 O. Street. It's zip code is listed as 68505, which means we are both incorrect. Mine was a mistake, I'll make the assumption yours was too. Here are the stats for 68505:

68505 Zip Code (Lincoln, Nebraska) Profile - homes, apartments, schools, population, income, averages, housing, demographics, location, statistics, sex offenders, residents and real estate info (http://www.city-data.com/zips/68505.html)

68505 is the north side of O Street, 68510 is the south side where WF is going in at. However, dwelling on that isn't going to be constructive.


Median income is still nearly twice 73071. Most of this data is more consistent with 73072. Which makes more sense to me just purely from a marketing standpoint. So what is your disagreement with my thought here... Do you not think that this is data representative of what they are looking at, do you think I am misrepresenting 73071, or do you think income levels don't matter as much as what I am thinking? What is your argument?

I think where I'm coming from is that I could see WF work as part of a redeveloped Lindsey corridor that is more walkable and high density friendly. In my mind that would be a new development at say Berry and Lindsey or somewhere thereabouts, replacing old strip malls with better quality developments. It keeps it close to Central Norman and campus and it still is with in a very easy drive of 35 and those west of it.


When I said east side earlier, to be consistent with everything else in my discussion I should have really said "zip codes other than 73072." So maybe that wasn't apparent, I thought it probably was, but I could see where that might not have been. So that being said, when you are talking about places over by Berry, which I agree are technically the west side as everything west of Porter by definition is, it is in a different zip code than the one I was mentioning. So that area is either 73069 or 73019 depending on what part of Berry we are talking about right? 73019 is just terrible... Their AGI is like 25k per year. 73069 is 42k. Still no where near 73072's average AGI of 67k. Or Edmond/73003's 68k.

73019 is Campus proper only, so that would explain why the AGI is crap. :)

73069 is Berry north of Lindsey.

73072 is Berry south of Lindsey. It runs essentially along Lindsey until you get to campus and the 73019 zip code, and then jobs around the south side by up to Lindsey past Jenkins and then jobs SE as you get close to the water tower over there until finally running along Classen/77 until north Noble. It is a pretty crazy zip code layout for it, but that was the part of town I use to live in.


Venture I'm not trying to crap on those other zip codes, I'm really not, I just don't see the economic benefit to WF where WF happens to build there. Tell me what I'm missing... What is the argument you are making that trumps AGI?

I don't think you are either. I just think there is some confusion on exactly where the zip codes run and the property values of specific blocks/parcels in there. If you look at the maps on City Data, you can see two very clear hot spots of higher household incomes. One is Brookhaven between Robinson and Rock Creek and the other is in Central Norman between Hwy 9 and McGee on the west to Pickard on the east and between Lindsey (north) and Imhoff (south). So I'm not arguing that a further west option isn't good for them, I'm just saying with the data that is actually available...there is another option and could be tied into a redeveloped, high density Lindsey.

Yeah, so I guess the two things that stick in my mind when I look over in that part of town... One is wondering if there are enough homes in that high income rectangle to make it happen. It's not an issue of me not being aware that there are some really nice homes over there, it's more an issue of the number of belly buttons available with lots of cash. I think with the right traffic volume and frontage it's possible. Traffic volume is kind of debatable... Lindsey doesn't have fantastic numbers half the time. I think it's what led the state to nearly shutter the Lindsey exit from I-35. If you look at the right times its great though. So then that brings us to the second thing that is sticking in my mind, and that's location. Lindsey is just not a very attractive area. Not today. There isn't even one frontage in that area that looks like a place they'd typically build on. So given the numbers and traffic concerns, I'd think that redevelopment would really be the lynch pin for any hope to get a store put in there.

So they're talking about revamping the street right now, but it'll be years before anything starts and finishes. But more importantly than that... The strip malls in that area just look incredibly old and cheap. They're all privately owned... There's really not going to be a way to force upgrades as I'm sure the area, while maybe not as attractive as could be, is probably up to code. So then we're talking about gaining support to collect public funding to turn over to private businesses to make things look better... Or doing things with traffic patterns to make the area more attractive to private redevelopment and then just cross our fingers and hope it starts happening... sometime.... I don't know, I guess it's possible. It just seems to me like a scenario that, if possible, isn't likely to come to fruition for many years. I'd kind of like to see a WF here next year. If they really are looking, then I'm sure they would too. Plus no one wants to sink a ton of money into a new store then immediately see road closures and reconstructions directly in front of them for the next 12-24 months. I guess I thought the thread was really about where they could move to today. All this other stuff seems more pie in the sky to me, ya know.

I do think redeveloping that area would be a great idea though. It's one of the major gateways to the city and it really should be more than what it is.

Yeah, so I guess the two things that stick in my mind when I look over in that part of town... One is wondering if there are enough homes in that high income rectangle to make it happen. It's not an issue of me not being aware that there are some really nice homes over there, it's more an issue of the number of belly buttons available with lots of cash. I think with the right traffic volume and frontage it's possible. Traffic volume is kind of debatable... Lindsey doesn't have fantastic numbers half the time. I think it's what led the state to nearly shutter the Lindsey exit from I-35. If you look at the right times its great though. So then that brings us to the second thing that is sticking in my mind, and that's location. Lindsey is just not a very attractive area. Not today. There isn't even one frontage in that area that looks like a place they'd typically build on. So given the numbers and traffic concerns, I'd think that redevelopment would really be the lynch pin for any hope to get a store put in there.

So they're talking about revamping the street right now, but it'll be years before anything starts and finishes. But more importantly than that... The strip malls in that area just look incredibly old and cheap. They're all privately owned... There's really not going to be a way to force upgrades as I'm sure the area, while maybe not as attractive as could be, is probably up to code. So then we're talking about gaining support to collect public funding to turn over to private businesses to make things look better... Or doing things with traffic patterns to make the area more attractive to private redevelopment and then just cross our fingers and hope it starts happening... sometime.... I don't know, I guess it's possible. It just seems to me like a scenario that, if possible, isn't likely to come to fruition for many years. I'd kind of like to see a WF here next year. If they really are looking, then I'm sure they would too. Plus no one wants to sink a ton of money into a new store then immediately see road closures and reconstructions directly in front of them for the next 12-24 months. I guess I thought the thread was really about where they could move to today. All this other stuff seems more pie in the sky to me, ya know.

I do think redeveloping that area would be a great idea though. It's one of the major gateways to the city and it really should be more than what it is.

Doing things to help the traffic patterns is one of the first things that has been shown to help in redevelopment in other out of state city's.

Like you indicate there are not enough numbers of high income people near by for very many higher end national retail chains.
Right now the image of congested traffic keeps many off people off Lindsey St. and out of other parts of Norman.....

Improving the traffic situation makes the Lindsey street area more desirable for shopping and redevelopment which would cause even higher property values and even more higher end development..... Norman should probably improve its architectural standards for new commercial development along Lindsey Street.

I talk to many OU fans who come from all over including from out of state. The one common theme among them is that many believe Norman is congested, out of date and hard to get around.

Yeah, so I guess the two things that stick in my mind when I look over in that part of town... One is wondering if there are enough homes in that high income rectangle to make it happen. It's not an issue of me not being aware that there are some really nice homes over there, it's more an issue of the number of belly buttons available with lots of cash.

I'm sure we could start dumping into the numbers, but I think that is going to get to micro for this discussion. I would definitely say that area is on a definite upswing, as I've seen many properties upgraded since I last lived in that area. Which is exactly what we want to see...reinvestment in the older neighborhoods instead of continued sprawling developments. Higher density to the population core will help us get the "higher end" stores that bypass Norman.


I think with the right traffic volume and frontage it's possible. Traffic volume is kind of debatable... Lindsey doesn't have fantastic numbers half the time. I think it's what led the state to nearly shutter the Lindsey exit from I-35. If you look at the right times its great though. So then that brings us to the second thing that is sticking in my mind, and that's location. Lindsey is just not a very attractive area. Not today. There isn't even one frontage in that area that looks like a place they'd typically build on. So given the numbers and traffic concerns, I'd think that redevelopment would really be the lynch pin for any hope to get a store put in there.

It is funny to see the debate about the over congested Lindsey and how we need a large stretch of concrete to accommodate it all, but then like you just pointed out - ODOT was ready to kill the exit due to low usage numbers. I'm with you though, redevelopment of the strip once the new roadway is put in will be key for any higher quality developments. I would definitely like to see more quality denser housing developments on Lindsey like we are seeing on 12th SE with first floor retail. Would be a much better replacement for existing strip malls there.


So they're talking about revamping the street right now, but it'll be years before anything starts and finishes. But more importantly than that... The strip malls in that area just look incredibly old and cheap. They're all privately owned... There's really not going to be a way to force upgrades as I'm sure the area, while maybe not as attractive as could be, is probably up to code. So then we're talking about gaining support to collect public funding to turn over to private businesses to make things look better... Or doing things with traffic patterns to make the area more attractive to private redevelopment and then just cross our fingers and hope it starts happening... sometime.... I don't know, I guess it's possible. It just seems to me like a scenario that, if possible, isn't likely to come to fruition for many years. I'd kind of like to see a WF here next year. If they really are looking, then I'm sure they would too. Plus no one wants to sink a ton of money into a new store then immediately see road closures and reconstructions directly in front of them for the next 12-24 months. I guess I thought the thread was really about where they could move to today. All this other stuff seems more pie in the sky to me, ya know.

I do think redeveloping that area would be a great idea though. It's one of the major gateways to the city and it really should be more than what it is.

Yeah if it is something where WF wants in with in a year, then my spot is going to be out for right now. My vision is more long term for those of us that will be living here for another 50-60 years. We still have to plan for both so we aren't throwing good money away.

Apparently you have never consorted with people such as players, coaches and others who take their football seriously. Not all at OU avoid them by any means but I do know plenty of OU people who won’t buy a Dell product and other products from Austin based enterprises…. You need to get out more and out of the Stillwater strip mind set because it actually happens a lot.

So is that why Stillwater has a Texas Roadhouse and Norman does not?