Nice...

Here is the document from the City of Norman website: http://legistar1.granicus.com/normanok/meetings/2013/6/1160_A_Planning_Commission_13-06-13_Meeting_Agenda.pdf (scroll to the last page for links)

Here is the document from the City of Norman website: http://legistar1.granicus.com/normanok/meetings/2013/6/1160_A_Planning_Commission_13-06-13_Meeting_Agenda.pdf (scroll to the last page for links)

Thanks Trey and Questor.

Here are the schematics for the Campus Corner development:

http://norman.legistar.com/gateway.aspx?M=F&ID=1ffa8adb-03b4-428a-b194-ef22eb213174.pdf

not great, but very good. i like

So is this moving forward? Looks like a decent infill project for Norman, and hopefully leads to more similar developments in that area.

Looking at the site plan it appears the small office building where the Emerging Technology Entrepreneural Center (ETEC) is located. Are they relocating to another space in Campus Corner or downtown Norman? That would be great to see them get their own new building.

If I read the minutes correctly, the Planning Commission has now referred the issue to the City Council for a vote. So we'll see what happens in a future meeting.

And yes, I believe this development would replace the block directly behind Campus Corner. I'm not sure where eTec would move, I don't know if anything has been announced.

Norman is way overdue for a project like this. It'll fit in wonderfully in that area. If this is rejected than I give up on Norman. ;)

on the assessor webpage, it looks like its going to take up six different parcels, but they are still listed with various owners.

the eTec site is .6 acres and that site plan shows 1.5 acres. this has me confused...

If this turns out as cool as I imagine it I'd seriously consider moving in. My wife and I live on the southeast side of Norman and we constantly pine for the ability to just walk out the door to a shop or a cafe or a pub. She's especially unaccustomed to not having much walkability or public transportation options being from Cape Town.

Related thought: I was jealous of places even in Africa that have immensely better public transportation options, walkability and urban fabric than most of the OKC area, though there are most definitely trade offs.

Does anyone know if these flats are all rentals or will there be some for sale as well? Guess I could contact B3 Development Group to see if they can offer any info. I'm kind of psyched!

Related thought: I was jealous of places even in Africa that have immensely better public transportation options, walkability and urban fabric than most of the OKC area, though there are most definitely trade offs.


Seriously? Have you ever been to Africa?

Seriously? Have you ever been to Africa?

Yessir. Maybe I should say Southern Africa in particular. My wife lived in Cape Town when I met her, and it was nice dense suburbs, mixed use everywhere, shops/cafes/pubs, and quite a decent rail system that allowed me to get all over town. Even the smaller cities and towns in the region keep it nice and cozy. But like I said, there are big trade-offs like crime, unemployment and corruption. It has made me think though, that since the political and economic situation is much better here in central Oklahoma as opposed to Southern Africa, it's a shame that we struggle to scrape together the urban culture, density and services that seem to come so naturally to them despite the hardships.

I do have to say though I am excited about the way things are happening in Norman and the rest of central OK.

Did anyone make it to the council meeting last night? I wanted to go but I couldn't leave the office on time. Lame! :p

Did anyone make it to the council meeting last night? I wanted to go but I couldn't leave the office on time. Lame! :p

I just watched some portions of the video, from what I gathered they didn't do anything? Idk I didn't have much time so I skipped towards the end of the meeting video.

Norman Transcript: Controversial high-rise, high-density residential proposal on indefinite hold » Headlines » The Norman Transcript (http://normantranscript.com/headlines/x1472218852/Controversial-high-rise-high-density-residential-proposal-on-indefinite-hold)

Sounds like the zoning issue has been put on indefinite hold until a more comprehensive study/plan is in place for the whole of central Norman with OU being more involved. I guess it sounds promising for the long run but I always have a hard time reading between the lines on this stuff.

Norman Transcript: Controversial high-rise, high-density residential proposal on indefinite hold » Headlines » The Norman Transcript (http://normantranscript.com/headlines/x1472218852/Controversial-high-rise-high-density-residential-proposal-on-indefinite-hold)

Sounds like the zoning issue has been put on indefinite hold until a more comprehensive study/plan is in place for the whole of central Norman with OU being more involved. I guess it sounds promising for the long run but I always have a hard time reading between the lines on this stuff.

It could be good, could be bad. It just depends on how long the indefinite hold (moratorium) lasts. I don't believe developers will completely scrap their plans by the time this hold is lifted and it makes sense that the city would want to have a good ordinance in place. However, I am skeptical on just what that ordinance will look like and what it will allow. Im afraid there's too many misconceptions and misinterpretations on exactly what high density residential IS. It isn't HIGH RISE, 3-4 stories is NOT high rise. They are looking at this all the wrong way.

It also functions completely differently than apartment complexes or cul-de-sacs of duplexes and I am afraid they're looking at this development as an apartment complex. It functions completely differently (obviously). We shall see.

It could be good, could be bad. It just depends on how long the indefinite hold (moratorium) lasts. I don't believe developers will completely scrap their plans by the time this hold is lifted and it makes sense that the city would want to have a good ordinance in place. However, I am skeptical on just what that ordinance will look like and what it will allow. Im afraid there's too many misconceptions and misinterpretations on exactly what high density residential IS. It isn't HIGH RISE, 3-4 stories is NOT high rise. They are looking at this all the wrong way.

It also functions completely differently than apartment complexes or cul-de-sacs of duplexes and I am afraid they're looking at this development as an apartment complex. It functions completely differently (obviously). We shall see.

Exactly! Man, I agree with everything you said. I'm excited by the addition of OU's resources in the Institute for Quality Communities, but it's Norman, and I would not be surprised to see this indefinite hold last for a long, long time. And why the hell they keep referencing a 6 story building as a high rise is beyond me! It's not even close, but by calling it that, they certainly help get the residents fired up about the idea of a high rise invading their neighborhood.

It isn't HIGH RISE, 3-4 stories is NOT high rise.

That's exactly what I was thinking as I was reading previous articles. I feel like this development would be considered low-rise at most.

Exactly! Man, I agree with everything you said. I'm excited by the addition of OU's resources in the Institute for Quality Communities, but it's Norman, and I would not be surprised to see this indefinite hold last for a long, long time. And why the hell they keep referencing a 6 story building as a high rise is beyond me! It's not even close, but by calling it that, they certainly help get the residents fired up about the idea of a high rise invading their neighborhood.


Indeed, to me, the language is what is killing this project and getting the citizens fired up. It's unfortunate that it has been called high density. It should be called something like "City Mixed Use Centers" or something like that.

That's exactly what I was thinking as I was reading previous articles. I feel like this development would be considered low-rise at most.

Well, in other large cities it would probably be mid-rise. You see mid-rise buildings all along main street and many arterial streets that are right next to low rise single family homes. (No one would complain if they lived next to Bob Stoops' high rise home, eh?). I just think this has been framed completely the wrong way. It adds SO MUCH to this area, sigh.

We are in perfect agreement on this. I know it probably seems like semantics, but calling this a high-rise development has cast this important discussion in a very unflattering light. High-density is important for the future growth of cities, where resources will be in shorter supply and costs will continue to rise. However, high-rises are not the only way to develop higher densities and that's where part of the problem here is, at least in my view. By calling this a high-rise, they've done little besides rile up the NIMBY crowd, that if given their way, would never see Norman change. They miss the sleepy old college town, but Norman is now Oklahoma's 3rd-largest city and needs to start acting like it. Norman should have planned for things like this years ago, but per usual, they're behind the times. Call this building mixed-use, like you've suggested, and this building probably doesn't face quite this sort of backlash.

With the ideas from OU's institute hopefully guiding design and aesthetics, it will be these kinds of projects that will provide the kind of desirable, yet manageable growth that Norman should want.

We are in perfect agreement on this. I know it probably seems like semantics, but calling this a high-rise development has cast this important discussion in a very unflattering light. High-density is important for the future growth of cities, where resources will be in shorter supply and costs will continue to rise. However, high-rises are not the only way to develop higher densities and that's where part of the problem here is, at least in my view. By calling this a high-rise, they've done little besides rile up the NIMBY crowd, that if given their way, would never see Norman change. They miss the sleepy old college town, but Norman is now Oklahoma's 3rd-largest city and needs to start acting like it. Norman should have planned for things like this years ago, but per usual, they're behind the times. Call this building mixed-use, like you've suggested, and this building probably doesn't face quite this sort of backlash.

With the ideas from OU's institute hopefully guiding design and aesthetics, it will be these kinds of projects that will provide the kind of desirable, yet manageable growth that Norman should want.


Be sure to attend Dan Burden's talks this Friday. Livable Lindsey Street Workshop with Dan Burden- Eventbrite (http://livablelindsey-es2.eventbrite.com/)

I wonder if anyone has brought up Boulder, CO during these discussions at city council? Boulder is of similar size, they have a university, and are near a metropolitan area. They have so, so, so, so many of these mid-rise multi-use developments throughout the city. Boulder is a great city. It's walkable and the buildings wonderfully relate to the street. Seriously, go have a look at some google street views all around Boulder. Of course no city is without its issues, it's by no means a perfect place but I think it's a great model for what Norman COULD be if we properly frame this discussion in the right light and point towards a model for what we want. If people frame it as high rise, people will think large dumb-bell tenements from 1920's NYC...BUT if you show them pictures of places like Boulder...well then you've got an entirely new discussion

This isn't "directly" related to more intensive use of development (which is what this thread is about). BUT...this afternoon at 4:00 at Legends II on Lindsay Street in Norman is a workshop entitled "Lindsay Street Opportunities & Best Practices"...about the future envisioning of Lindsay Street (mediated by Dan Burden). The session this morning dealt with different examples of streets from around the country and the types of buildings and development that those types of streets bring. It's important for Lindsay, which could be an amazing street/district/corridor/village for more intensive land uses (which is the part that's relevant to this thread). So if you're in Norman...COME! It'll be a good time of discussion and knowledge.

Here's a link Livable Lindsey Street Opportunities Presentation- Eventbrite (http://lindseyopportunities.eventbrite.com/)

I don't see a need to delay this project. If it was right in the core of Campus Corner, maybe, but it's replacing existing apartments and parking lots further north. I agree a comprehensive plan would be good, something that sets strict rules for urban development in the area, like building to the sidewalk, all parking either in a garage or below ground for large projects, certain streets must have mixed-use functions, etc. For example if this project was further south on Asp it should probably have retail space to enhance and extend Asp Ave. through Campus Corner. On Buchanan St. north of White it isn't as important, and should be a residential front but with entrances on the sidewalk i.e. stoops and patios.

And a plan for Lindsey St. is long overdue. That street has the potential to be a much nicer gateway, and hopefully this presentation is a good first step to making that a reality. Part of that includes making it 4 lanes from Berry to Jenkins, no left turn lane, bike lanes and large sidewalks with a row of street trees and new streetlamps down the entire length. Red brick paver crosswalks as you get into campus would be a nice touch.

College Station doesn't seem to have a problem building high density mid-rises by the A&M campus...
A Johnny Manziel lure? Texas A&M takes luxury level to another level - CultureMap Houston (http://houston.culturemap.com/news/realestate/07-09-13-a-johnny-manziel-lure-texas-am-takes-the-collge-high-life-to-another-level-with-new-luxury-digs/)

College Station doesn't seem to have a problem building high density mid-rises by the A&M campus...
A Johnny Manziel lure? Texas A&M takes luxury level to another level - CultureMap Houston (http://houston.culturemap.com/news/realestate/07-09-13-a-johnny-manziel-lure-texas-am-takes-the-collge-high-life-to-another-level-with-new-luxury-digs/)

I've yet to visit a college town that didn't have a more cohesive feel and higher density living options near the campus than what OU has. Even Stillwater is getting in on the action, but Norman continues to plod along. It's a damn shame.

I've yet to visit a college town that didn't have a more cohesive feel and higher density living options near the campus than what OU has. Even Stillwater is getting in on the action, but Norman continues to plod along. It's a damn shame.

Totally agree. It's mind boggling that there are city council members that say Norman isn't "big enough" for denser developments. That's literally what my (former) city councilman told me, quite disappointing.

Totally agree. It's mind boggling that there are city council members that say Norman isn't "big enough" for denser developments. That's literally what my (former) city councilman told me, quite disappointing.

Yep, I've been told the same thing. It frustrates the hell out of me because Norman has a TON of potential. It's a college town that's actually pretty close to a major city so we can reap the benefits of that, but there's enough going on in Norman that it could really do well with the right leadership and focus. Instead, it seems like Norman is doing everything it can to turn into a series of housing subdivisions. LAME. I loved OU, but I haven't missed Norman at all since I left. It's missing the boat completely on development.

Yep, I've been told the same thing. It frustrates the hell out of me because Norman has a TON of potential. It's a college town that's actually pretty close to a major city so we can reap the benefits of that, but there's enough going on in Norman that it could really do well with the right leadership and focus. Instead, it seems like Norman is doing everything it can to turn into a series of housing subdivisions. LAME. I loved OU, but I haven't missed Norman at all since I left. It's missing the boat completely on development.

:rock_on:

Yeah, hopefully the new lindsey street scape won't end up being terrible and will spur medium-density development and maybe then we'll start seeing the kind of development that's found pretty much everyone except here. They're even doing it in Lubbock!!! (Look just east of the football stadium on google maps: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=lubbock,+texas&ll=33.590186,-101.867589&spn=0.004519,0.006539&hnear=Lubbock,+Texas&gl=us&t=h&z=18 )

EDIT: I love the way the Cottages was created in Lubbock as well, it doesn't create a super block because there are through streets that go all the way through the development. This is what I wish the Norman cottages looked like. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=lubbock,+texas&ll=33.587047,-101.859119&spn=0.004519,0.006539&hnear=Lubbock,+Texas&gl=us&t=h&z=18

Downtown and Campus Corner should be full of high density developments. I would suggest writing the council and mayor advocating for the zoning to allow these projects, and also to the OU Institute for Communities (Blair Humphreys) as they are assisting the city and promote walkable mixed use development.

Downtown and Campus Corner should be full of high density developments. I would suggest writing the council and mayor advocating for the zoning to allow these projects, and also to the OU Institute for Communities (Blair Humphreys) as they are assisting the city and promote walkable mixed use development.

The IQC, I believe, will be working on a master plan for campus corner.

I have got to believe that someone with a lot of money, downtown businesses, OU, or a large employer is fighting the downtown/CC high density plan behind the scenes. I mean if all of freaking northwest Norman couldn't stop an HDR-1 development there, then how is it possible that a strip of land surrounded by a church, a handful of small businesses, a dozen homes, and OU could....

I'd love to know the real story there.

I mean if all of freaking northwest Norman couldn't stop an HDR-1 development there.

What development do you speak of?

I have got to believe that someone with a lot of money, downtown businesses, OU, or a large employer is fighting the downtown/CC high density plan behind the scenes. I mean if all of freaking northwest Norman couldn't stop an HDR-1 development there, then how is it possible that a strip of land surrounded by a church, a handful of small businesses, a dozen homes, and OU could....

I'd love to know the real story there.

You are probably on to something.

What development do you speak of?

There is one going in just southwest of Tecumseh/36th intersection. Lots of angst and many new kitties birthed in the nearby sub-d's over that project.

There is one going in just southwest of Tecumseh/36th intersection. Lots of angst and many new kitties birthed in the nearby sub-d's over that project.

Are you sure about this? I remember an uproar over a Walmart Neighborhood Market and an apartment complex sign for a development that never got anywhere.

I believe y'all are talking about the same thing.

http://www.okctalk.com/norman/29824-new-apartment-proposal-nw-36th-tecumseh.html

Are you sure about this? I remember an uproar over a Walmart Neighborhood Market and an apartment complex sign for a development that never got anywhere.

The surplus kitties were all put up for adoption last November.
Norman council approves 'high-end' apartments, despite protest from residents | News OK (http://newsok.com/norman-council-approves-high-end-apartments-despite-protest-from-residents/article/3732772)

The surplus kitties were all put up for adoption last November.
Norman council approves 'high-end' apartments, despite protest from residents | News OK (http://newsok.com/norman-council-approves-high-end-apartments-despite-protest-from-residents/article/3732772)

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

The surplus kitties were all put up for adoption last November.
Norman council approves 'high-end' apartments, despite protest from residents | News OK (http://newsok.com/norman-council-approves-high-end-apartments-despite-protest-from-residents/article/3732772)

Oh my... NW Norman is officially going apartment. Woooow.

I got a chuckle out of that whole thing. People were fighting it tooth and nail, but yet they want their own commuter rail stop on Tecumseh? Granted these are the same that complain about having to drive about a mile to a gas station.

LOL. This apartment complex in no way shape or form resembles any kind of "high-rise" development that I'd like to see near campus

LOL. This apartment complex in no way shape or form resembles any kind of "high-rise" development that I'd like to see near campus

I laugh when I hear people call a 3-5 story building a high rise development. To me a high rise development is pushing around 10 stories - similar to the dorm towers on campus. No reason we can't see more of those and less of these 2-3 story apartment mash ups.

I laugh when I hear people call a 3-5 story building a high rise development. To me a high rise development is pushing around 10 stories - similar to the dorm towers on campus. No reason we can't see more of those and less of these 2-3 story apartment mash ups.

I agree, which is why I think it was a mistake to call it the "High-Rise residential" ordinance...because it's not high rise!!! It's completely put the issue in the wrong light in front of the city council and the public.

I agree, which is why I think it was a mistake to call it the "High-Rise residential" ordinance...because it's not high rise!!! It's completely put the issue in the wrong light in front of the city council and the public.

Exactly. We've hashed this out before, but it really bears repeating. The name for this ordinance framed it in the wrong light, only serving as a rallying cry to rile up those citizens that got suckered in to believing that another Sarkeys Tower was headed to their backyard. Just a colossal mistake to call it that.

Although .... a couple of Sarkey's size nicely appointed residential towers, wouldn't be a bad thing for the university area of Norman. Come to think of it, wouldn't be horrible just off downtown either. The former is more likely to happen one day than the latter.

I laugh when I hear people call a 3-5 story building a high rise development. To me a high rise development is pushing around 10 stories - similar to the dorm towers on campus. No reason we can't see more of those and less of these 2-3 story apartment mash ups.For me, when I hear high-rise, I think of a 25+ story development. 40+ Would a "sky-rise" and over 60 would be a super tall(DEVON!!!!!!!!!!! ;)). From 5-25 would be mid-rise and 5> is a low rise. A one story, is just that!

One story is a 'no rise'

i've always said high-rise was 15+, not sure why, but just have always thought of it that way. is there an actual definition somewhere of which is which?

I really hope Norman gets this done. There are so few high quality large-scale urban options in Norman. Actually are there any others beyond the 401 Lofts?!?

I really hope Norman gets this done. There are so few high quality large-scale urban options in Norman. Actually are there any others beyond the 401 Lofts?!?

Only one that really comes to mind that sorta compares are those over on 12th SE and Lindsey. Though they still aren't perfect and retail on the first level has been shaky.

Only one that really comes to mind that sorta compares are those over on 12th SE and Lindsey. Though they still aren't perfect and retail on the first level has been shaky.

Indeed, retail has struggled in that development. It's just a donut shop, tanning salon, liquor store....the ice cream place recently vacated. I suppose they're making enough money off of the rent to construct a third building, which is what they're currently doing.

Indeed, retail has struggled in that development. It's just a donut shop, tanning salon, liquor store....the ice cream place recently vacated. I suppose they're making enough money off of the rent to construct a third building, which is what they're currently doing.

Maggie Moo's has been gone for a year or two now - not really recent. They did a lot of downsizing so you can't really judge the development based on that chain. That area though needs some additional reinvestment. I would like to see high dense residential go in there on the east side of 12th as well. Not to mention replace the shopping center north of Lindsey. Dedicated bike lane and better walking trails to campus would probably help some too.

What is the latest with this development? Is it on hold pending development of a Campus Corner master plan with input from OU?

I don't understand what is taking so long. There must be 20 of these types of developments around the Georgia Tech campus with even more under construction all around the downtown adjacent neighborhoods. This is how people want to live now - higher density and within walking distance to the basic amenities of daily life. What is the alternative, sprawling apartment complexes that require everyone to drive for everything?

What is the latest with this development? Is it on hold pending development of a Campus Corner master plan with input from OU?

Yes. I read in the Transcript that the developer agreed to pull his request until the plan with OU's input was created. God only knows when that will be though.

Yes. I read in the Transcript that the developer agreed to pull his request until the plan with OU's input was created. God only knows when that will be though.

Three weeks after they figure out how to restore their Pride perhaps?

Since the discussion should be here, I'm going to reply to the off topic posts form the Lindsey thread...


Several 3 story apt complexes now. This area has a great deal of walk-ablility to events / campus / and easy access to Hwy 9 for commuters.

For someone wanting to go out to dinner and such, it is still a pretty long walk unless you are taking a bike. Just because someone can walk to a place, doesn't make it "walkable".


..Yes, very serious. Please look at the SW corner of Chatauqua & Imhoff ( old car wash & for sale ). Yes, those buildings on the North of that corner is 3 story apt. Buildings to the South are apt too. It works very well. The Mixed use Tower would work w/ Residential & Retail below. Thank you for the map, that helps.

A mixed use tower in that area would be a waste when you could put it closer to downtown or campus and be able to draw off of the other amenities that are already available.


I still don't believe you're being serious.

Just because there's a couple of student developments does not make this "high density". Besides a 7/11 gas station the nearest thing to walk to that is commercial/entertainment is Campus Corner, which is 1.5 miles away. I've lived in Traditions for a summer and walked ... once ... to Main Street for a night out. It was a nightmare and I'd never do it again, especially in Oklahoma summer heat.

You and I must have very different ideas of what "high density" development means....

Exactly. A mile may not seem long running from one concourse to another in Atlanta, but going to dinner or to the store is.


I said place a High End Apt / Condo Tower on that location, ...with the lower floors having a Starbucks / Bookstore / Restaurant / etc. and this will Sell. This location becomes (The draw). It's location is best for Students / 20 - 30 Single group / and urbanist. The condos would be perfect. Apts would be THE only tower apt available in Norman. Don't get too confused w/ luster of campus corner. People don't want to live next door to the Night Life, and remember this. When Dad's are paying the bills for the daughters, the don't want them next the bars. lol.

People don't want to live next door to night life? Funny considering there are several $300-400K+ homes in the Campus Corner area now.


I believe this has been stated before on another thread...but there is SO much parking available near campus corner. There is plenty of street parking in the surrounding neighborhoods, huge lots of parking on the west side of University...parking should be campus corner's last worry.

Exactly. Though I think it would be smart to look at building high density buildings with integrated parking in the structure's foot print as well.

Guru... do you even got out at all? ....Maybe you should get out more and look around at the other college towns. Austin ? They have several like this. That means ( Multi Million Dollar ) investments have been made previously, for the exact same purpose..... So, the idea in not laughable, just the first in the market place. That makes it even better ( financial ) move.

guru, ...don't even talk about $$$ w/ me.

Austin is larger than Norman, why is this even being brought in? Norman is closer to Ann Arbor than Austin. Hell OKC has trouble holding a candle to Austin in some aspects.

You are correct. Austin is way ahead of Norman, but the needs around a DI school are still the same. They have similar needs & they have similar demographics. ( from a developers / financial POV ). Students / Urbanist / Hip crowd.

Thus they have the same needs for housing. And yes, a 8 - 10 story condo mixed retail will work.