How was the Boulevard addressed in the Core to Shore study? What documentation is there?

So, I sent an email last week to my ODOT guy who has yet to respond. I'm going to email him again and see what the pickle is. Pickle = ODOT

Keep in mind you guys, Sid's perspective isn't just coming from being an EMT but also coming from having walked with his family to go everywhere in OKC and having such an acute personal experience with our walkability deficiencies. I just don't have the patience to defend him against stubborn people who have Freudian hang-ups against roundabouts in the face of a pile of facts and evidence.

You guys can post all the facts and figures in the world and Larry and ljbab still won't be on board with roundabouts and this conversational will have gone nowhere. However, as public servants and as empirical public engineers and planners, ODOT and FTA have a responsibility to look at the alternatives and facts. Onward with Friends for a Better Boulevard..

The beautiful thing is we don't just have stats on circles and roundabouts reducing accidents across the country. We have the stats for them in our own damn community. The proof is in the pudding. Give it a rest.
I agree with ljbab, I support you in trying to get a Better Boulevard...just don't agree that traffic circles are the way to do it is all. BTW, what are the stats showing that they are safer (Mr. Wenger was saying the same thing)

I agree with ljbab, I support you in trying to get a Better Boulevard...just don't agree that traffic circles are the way to do it is all. BTW, what are the stats showing that they are safer (Mr. Wenger was saying the same thing)

A point of order here: No one is proposing the constructuon of traffic circles but of the moder roundabout. The two bear no relationship to one another except for being somewhat circular. The moder roundabout can reduce intersection traffice fatalities uo to 90% compared to a signalized intersection: http://www.azdot.gov/CCpartnerships/roundabouts/faq.asp

Previous pages on this thread there are detailed explanations of the structural difference between the traffic circle and the modern roundabout. The Facebook group, Friends for a Better Boulvevard, has renderings and explaination of the difference. The modern roundabout is the safest and most efficient way to move traffic theough an intersection.

Typically, a traffic circle entrance has streets coming in perpendicular to a tangent of the circle..that is, a "T" intersection. Traffic circles are striped concentrically, like a bulls-eye. Inside lanes must must change to an outside lane before exiting the circle, thereby causing conflict. Traffic circles range from 300-600' in diameter. Speeds on a circle can be as high as 45-50 mph. Exiting a traffic circle is always a "turn" event. Traffic circles have low capacity and are inefficient.

Entry for joining circulating traffic in a roundabout is controlled by yield signs. The entry angle to a roundabout is more gentle and always to the right. A multi-lane roundabout is striped as a spiral. Choose the correct lane before entry just as you would at a standard signalized intersection. Roundabouts are smaller in diameter and consequently, they have a calming effect on traffic. Typical entry and circulating speeds are no more than 15-25 mph. Exiting a Roundabout is always a "straight ahead" movement. Roundabouts are able to handle large volumes of traffic and are used for efficiency and safety.

What are the stats for the safety here in OKC? Are traffic counts up/down/same with the intersections before/after? Accidents/fatalities, before/ater? What about comparisons of intersections where we had something circular to drive around...ripped out for safety...replaced with something circular to drive around?

Still do not understand how having to maneuver around an object smack dab in what would be the normal lane of traffic (like the several pics a few posts up) is "calming"??? Can't help but seeing a landscaping truck turning over and losing its load in the middle of the road. Not exactly a calming experience!

Saw a recent appearance by the talking half of Penn & Teller, while I rarely agree with the man (I do enjoy his act), he made a valid point. He rejects the very premise of the "lesser of two evils" as what is the result? Evil. I see these circular obstructions (by whatever name) as the lesser of the two evils. While I certainly don't want the 8 to 10 block Boulevard, with elevated connections ODOT has planned, this isn't that much better.

Larry, LJ, etc, why would you rather stop and wait 30-120 seconds at a red light when you could simply merge into a roundabout at 15-25 mph? Remember that merging is a maneuver you do every single day at 50-70 mph when entering highways. You are just intimidated by something that you think is unfamiliar. Really, the roundabout with the modern design is not much different from a freeway interchange and the slow speeds make them much safer than a typical freeway interchange. Including for large trucks and semis (the central island can have a sloped curb allowing long trailers, fire engines, etc to roll right over)

There is absolutely no need to fear something that is so common all over the world including our own country just because it is new. It would be like refusing the cable-style barriers that were first installed on Hefner Parkway and are now becoming popular all over the world just because they looked less effective than Jersey barriers.

I just drove through a double roundabout, one on either side of an interstate highway in the Denver area. It was extremely smooth to go through, plus they had traffic signs depicting the roundabout being just ahead. I'd never driven on that road before, and it was a breeze. This makes so much sense as far as moving traffic through an area.

Spartan couldn't have said it better, give it a rest. Donate something to Bob so he can get the word out about the rest of the bad design, including no real assurance of proper transit integration.

I agree with ljbab, I support you in trying to get a Better Boulevard...just don't agree that traffic circles are the way to do it is all. BTW, what are the stats showing that they are safer (Mr. Wenger was saying the same thing)

So you are agreeing with Wenger and the city over something? :tongue:

I'm also unsure that they flat-out said in their email responses, which I presume is what you're referring to, that traffic circles increase safety concerns. I think Wenger wrote fairly level-headed, agreeable responses to all of us rather than stating any actual differences. Unless there's anything more substantive, less rhetorical that you can point to in those email responses?

Jesus, Larry, you've made your point. We get it. Move on.

Is there a modern roundabout somewhere in the OKC area. I'm curious if there is one locally that can be experienced first-hand.

Is there a modern roundabout somewhere in the OKC area. I'm curious if there is one locally that can be experienced first-hand.

At least a couple up by St Anthony I believe.

Specifically @ NW 10th and N. Walker and NW 10th & N. Shartel.

There are two roundabouts on 10th Street, one on either side of Saint Anthony's hospital. They flank two signal lights. To get the feel, drive the roundabouts a couple of times from different directions. You might then want to watch the traffic flow from the vantage point of Kaiser's while having an ice cream or buffalo burger. I think you will be surprized at the volume of traffic, how smooth and efficient is the flow of traffic. There is pedestrian traffic as well and with no issues.

Ahh, so on Google Maps, NW 10th and N. Walker (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=NW+10th+and+N.+Walker,+Oklahoma+City,+OK&hl=en&ll=35.478803,-97.52119&spn=0.001909,0.002057&sll=35.38905,-93.339844&sspn=43.707151,67.412109&hnear=S+Walker+Ave+%26+SW+10th+St,+Oklahoma+City,+ Oklahoma,+73109&t=h&z=19) and NW 10th & N. Shartel (https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=NW+10th+and+N.+Walker,+Oklahoma+City,+OK&aq=&sll=35.38905,-93.339844&sspn=43.707151,67.412109&vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=S+Walker+Ave+%26+SW+10th+St,+Oklahoma+City,+ Oklahoma,+73109&t=h&ll=35.478786,-97.525605&spn=0.001909,0.002057&z=19)?

Funnily enough, I've been through the first and didn't really even notice anything odd about it, which is a bit of a testament right there.

Larry, LJ, etc, why would you rather stop and wait 30-120 seconds at a red light when you could simply merge into a roundabout at 15-25 mph? ...
Sans any statistical evidence that they are really safer here, this is perhaps the best argument for it that I have heard. Of course with stop lights, there is a possibility that you will hit a green one and won't have to stop at all, and if traffic is heavy, a possibility that you might be delayed driving around in circles waiting to get out of the other contraption...

The same reason I usually take the interstate rather than going thru what will probably be stop-n-go traffic thru city streets, even though the interstate may be farther in driving distance, at least I am constantly moving and the time element may be about the same but the perception with constant movement makes it seem shorter.


So you are agreeing with Wenger and the city over something? :tongue:

I'm also unsure that they flat-out said in their email responses, which I presume is what you're referring to, that traffic circles increase safety concerns. I think Wenger wrote fairly level-headed, agreeable responses to all of us rather than stating any actual differences. Unless there's anything more substantive, less rhetorical that you can point to in those email responses?
No. Wenger was agreeing with you about the now decreased safety issues here (when they started putting them back in, they said the reason they got rid of them yers ago was because of safety, now because of "technological advancements" they are safer. I am just asking for the stats that you & Mr. Wenger seem to think exist. I am not saying that it isn't true, just not so willing to accept the City's word on the matter (since they are known to fabricate things from time to time).

Some have suggested that what we had before were traffic circles and what are being installed now are roundabouts. if I am understanding it correctly, the difference being how traffic enters/exits the space. If that is true, couldn't they just turn a traffic circle into a roundabout by restriping/directional signs etc???

What I think will probably happen is we will be promised something like shown in the renderings, then due to budget cutbacks or unforseen city owned basements, we will get this and in a few years because the City doesn't have the money or desire for maint, it will end up like the progression of images below...


http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/CuatrodeMayo/FinalPresentation-6.jpg

It really depends on the scale and size. There are programs in the US to help bring them in, especially in the residential context. These are everywhere in Seattle:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LmB6iJZp6RA/T7ZEV4a2uZI/AAAAAAAAEoQ/cvuc2I9DMdI/s1600/roundabout.JPG
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_f6vPFbisEsA/TBwGkQP3OiI/AAAAAAAACmk/fLP_Vbkamo8/s1600/roundabout.JPG

Larry, why don't you budget the city's money..everything would come out coal to diamonds

there is a roundabout in norman on Main street just west of Griffen Memorial. it makes the transition to get to Gray so easy, i love it

Larry, why don't you budget the city's money..everything would come out coal to diamonds
You have the right idea...Which would you prefer?
1) Over promise and under-deliver
2) Under promise and over deliver

2 of course! ;-)

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/577404_358224667584813_82323892_n.jpg

Never noticed the difference but now I see that the traffic circle looks like New Mexico's state flag & a roundabout looks like interesting knot tying directions. ;-)

Enough funds have been raised to kick off the official campaign!

How many of you have written your letters to Mr. Mendez in DC!? They're starting to work I hear! Keep'em coming!

There's a teensy circle at NW 36 and McKinley, just west of Classen. Does a better job of slowing down the traffic on 36th than some mere sign.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/577404_358224667584813_82323892_n.jpg

It's neither traffic circles or roundabouts that are the problem. The problem is that 90% of the drivers don't know what yield means.

Did anyone notice that one of the differences shown is that you "Never cross to the center island of a roundabout". So much for the depiction shown here with all of the people visiting the center.

Did anyone notice that one of the differences shown is that you "Never cross to the center island of a roundabout". So much for the depiction shown here with all of the people visiting the center.

Easily overcome by incorporating pedestrian bridges or tunnels. The scale of the roundabout favored for the western end of the boulevard makes it a hybrid design - larger than the typical roundabout, but with the same vehicular traffic flow as smaller, traditional versions.

Easily overcome by incorporating pedestrian bridges or tunnels. The scale of the roundabout favored for the western end of the boulevard makes it a hybrid design - larger than the typical roundabout, but with the same vehicular traffic flow as smaller, traditional versions.

It could also be easily overcome by not having a roundabout or traffic circle. LOL

Did anyone notice that one of the differences shown is that you "Never cross to the center island of a roundabout". So much for the depiction shown here with all of the people visiting the center.

Axioms of our day:
Never talk about fight club.
Do not taunt happy fun ball.
Never cross to the center island of a roundabout.

Easily overcome by incorporating pedestrian bridges or tunnels. The scale of the roundabout favored for the western end of the boulevard makes it a hybrid design - larger than the typical roundabout, but with the same vehicular traffic flow as smaller, traditional versions.

Not kidding here, I counted 10 lanes on a roundabout in Barcelona this past May.

Enough funds have been raised to kick off the official campaign!

How many of you have written your letters to Mr. Mendez in DC!? They're starting to work I hear! Keep'em coming!

Awesome!

Enough funds have been raised to kick off the official campaign!

How many of you have written your letters to Mr. Mendez in DC!? They're starting to work I hear! Keep'em coming!

I received a reply from the FHWA today. They are taking the issues raised very seriously. According to Mr Marrero, "We have requested that ODOT provide us an assessment of the social and environmental impacts associated with the project. As part of their assessment, we have asked ODOT to hold a public meeting to present what is currently being proposed and to seek public input."

I think it is significant he included the "social" impact of the boulevard's design. I am very pleased to see the Federal Highway Administration being so responsive in having government work FOR the people. Kudos to Bob for getting the ball rolling and Andrew for providing the visual presentation of "what could be" in the western CBD.

I don't know what the FHWA is but that sounds like a good start to me!

I don't know what the FHWA is but that sounds like a good start to me!

FHWA = Federal Highway Administration

Thanks for the Kudos, but it has been your effort and the effort of our Facebook group with the letters to the feds that have made the difference. However, there is much work remaining to be done. We shoukd have a full page ad in next week's Gazette and a big story in the Sunday Oklahoman that will increase public awareness.

Thanks for your interest and help in our campaign.

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaICdKez2jg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaICdKez2jg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Carmel, Indiana currently has 60 roundabouts. Carmel's population is 79,121.

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaICdKez2jg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

And no pedestrians in sight in the center islands. LOL

ODOT has got to be so ticked off. Nice work!!

ODOT has got to be so ticked off. Nice work!!

I totally agree. Congrats on what's been accomplished so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhHzly_6lWM&feature=related

The Federal Highway Administration has a favorable opinion of modern roundabouts.......

And no pedestrians in sight in the center islands. LOL

Depends on what you put in the center island and how big it is.

Interstates have a lot of wasteful "center islands" also. It all depends on what the end goals are. Some people want a speedway going throught the heart of the city. Others want to slow the speed down a few MPH. There is no point of debating the efficiency of a roundabout vs 4 way interchange because the two groups have a different definition of success.

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaICdKez2jg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

The 1:42 mark is lj & Larry

Aviator, thanks for posting the video about Carmel, Indiana. Carmel is probably the best argument for the fact that Okies can figure this out (even stubborn Okies, if Hoosiers can), and when they do they will like it (no more waiting at stoplights!!)

Roundabouts are everywhere in Carmel, and if you find residents' comments on roundabouts in news articles, they love and defend these intersections. They are so popular that the town wants to get rid of all signalized intersections.

Check these out:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=carmel,+in&hl=en&ll=39.936104,-86.161196&spn=0.003231,0.004611&hnear=Carmel,+Hamilton,+Indiana&gl=us&t=k&z=19

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=carmel,+in&hl=en&ll=39.97219,-86.160074&spn=0.00323,0.004611&hnear=Carmel,+Hamilton,+Indiana&gl=us&t=k&z=19

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=carmel,+in&hl=en&ll=39.956375,-86.113745&spn=0.00323,0.004611&hnear=Carmel,+Hamilton,+Indiana&gl=us&t=k&z=19

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=carmel,+in&hl=en&ll=39.977186,-86.202317&spn=0.003229,0.004611&hnear=Carmel,+Hamilton,+Indiana&gl=us&t=k&z=19

i will agree that the pedestrian argument is the strongest against them... i've always laughed at the "We are too stupid to use them" argument

While we are sharing videos

RtxEZINCpCw

While we are sharing videos

RtxEZINCpCw

also like this video cause it shows pedestrian traffic moving on the sidewalks...

also like this video cause it shows pedestrian traffic moving on the sidewalks...

Honestly, most traffic circles and roundabouts are not good for pedestrians. In Europe you will see many of these lined with small gates or fences to keep pedestrians out. That is why they created mid-block crosswalks.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/trafficfence.jpg

Aviator, thanks for posting the video about Carmel, Indiana. Carmel is probably the best argument for the fact that Okies can figure this out (even stubborn Okies, if Hoosiers can), and when they do they will like it (no more waiting at stoplights!!)

Roundabouts are everywhere in Carmel, and if you find residents' comments on roundabouts in news articles, they love and defend these intersections. They are so popular that the town wants to get rid of all signalized intersections.

Check these out:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=carmel,+in&hl=en&ll=39.936104,-86.161196&spn=0.003231,0.004611&hnear=Carmel,+Hamilton,+Indiana&gl=us&t=k&z=19

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=carmel,+in&hl=en&ll=39.97219,-86.160074&spn=0.00323,0.004611&hnear=Carmel,+Hamilton,+Indiana&gl=us&t=k&z=19

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=carmel,+in&hl=en&ll=39.956375,-86.113745&spn=0.00323,0.004611&hnear=Carmel,+Hamilton,+Indiana&gl=us&t=k&z=19

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=carmel,+in&hl=en&ll=39.977186,-86.202317&spn=0.003229,0.004611&hnear=Carmel,+Hamilton,+Indiana&gl=us&t=k&z=19

Why is the cemet truck going the wrong direction in the circle in the last picture ? NM... just a funky looking truck.

Why is the cemet truck going the wrong direction in the circle in the last picture ? NM... just a funky looking truck.

It is going the correct way (try zooming in :) )

They are this type of cemet truck.

http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/images11/redi-mix%20concrete%20truck.jpg

I've been convinced for a long time now, years for that matter since driving around Grand Cayman, that circles are the best way to go...Is it the folks vested in traffic signalization that throw up the red flags ?

Is it the folks vested in traffic signalization that throw up the red flags ?

Opposition comes from lots of sources and for lots of different reasons. ODOT doesn't like them because the cars don't go fast enough (and don't take as long to build or cost as much to maintain).

For Steve Lackmeyer's big article in this Sunday's Oklahoman. This was in today's Metro/State section.

1907

I think this discussion is getting caught up in the roundabout / traffic circle versus conventional intersection false choice. The real goal here is to redirect this misguided boulevard design. While I love the traffic circle renderings, the real issue that must be addressed is the unfortunate boulevard design as currently envisioned. I'm all for the grand traffic circle, in a perfect world, but I would be willing to "settle" for an ODOT design that doesn't bypass downtown's natural western Classen / Western corridor with this horribly conceived elevated "boulevard," which in all practical purposes is actually another expressway. No reasonable person would describe the current plans as a suitable boulevard design.

I must agree soonerguru. To me, the key thing here is getting rid of the flyover. I wouldn't mind a convention corner at any of the intersections, although I like the concept of a decorative roundabout, especially in light of the concept of a park-like boulevard. But really, anything that gets the western half of the boulevard at grade is reasonably acceptable.

I know our Mayor is commited to making the 5 blocks we know that it is on the ground the best five blocks it can be. My concern is that railroad underpass design and ODOT's seemingly unawareness about our hub study and streetcar project.

If enough pressure is applied to get a traffic circle built then enough presure can be applied to get the elevated portion stopped and make room for the streetcar. ODOT has failed at every aspect so far.

If enough pressure is applied to get a traffic circle built then enough presure can be applied to get the elevated portion stopped and make room for the streetcar. ODOT has failed at every aspect so far.

Aren't the traffic circle and the elevated portion the same thing/issue?

If enough pressure is applied to get a traffic circle built then enough presure can be applied to get the elevated portion stopped and make room for the streetcar. ODOT has failed at every aspect so far.

Neither one is going to happen (i.e. circle and removal of the elevated portion). One thing that seems to be forgotten in this discussion is that the boulevard is also an alternate entryway to downtown from the west. Check out the I-40 discussion and you'll see a lot of complaining about the scarcity of downtown exits. The new boulevard will help that, but not if there are multiple stops and/or circles before you get to downtown. Unfortunately, this is an either/or situation. You can't have it both ways.