View Full Version : Friends for a Better Boulevard



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Popsy
12-23-2012, 03:20 PM
Capt. dave

"Fiscal conservatives", self proclaimed or not have a complete grasp of the cost of sustaining a suburban lifestyle because they have practiced the art of living within their means for a long time. Additionally, they do not whine about the government not facilitating and sustaining their choice to live in the suburbs if you are referring to parts of OKC then you have no idea what you are talking about. Developers pay the cost of getting all of the utilities to thier subdivisions. The only thing the city pays is for paving roads, as the county built the roads and subsequently paved them originally. I have seen developments built close in that have gone fifteen years without the city doing anything. If you resent the city paving roads, then get off your butt and start a petition drive to de-annex. Also until you decide to start walking the walk, then you need to stop talking the talk and that means getting your kids out of the Edmond school district if you are critizing those that moved to the suburbs to be in that district. Plus, don't tell me not to tell you what to do when you spend so much time telling all of us what we need to do to comply with your vision of what this city needs to be.

CaptDave
12-23-2012, 04:02 PM
Whining Popsy? I never said anything of the sort. Sure "they" complain about government spending - they just like to complain about that which does not affect them personally.

Oddly enough, the city is in the process of spending $700 million to widen roads in north OKC where there is hardly any traffic to speak of now - but it is facilitating more greenfield development. It is a typical self fulfilling prophesy. It is properly called "induced demand".

Think beyond your bubble - how much does the United States spend securing sources of oil to enable people to drive everywhere? How much does it cost to add lane after lane mile of highway to enable people to hurry home at 60mph so they can spend some "quality time" with their families when they chose to move to a place that requires them to spend 'x' amount of time in their car? Read up on the ponzi scheme that unrestricted sprawl truly is.

I completely understand why people choose to live in Edmond or Mustang or Yukon when you compare those public school systems to OKC's. I think I stated that fairly clearly and said I made the same choice for my kids. Sure we threw some MAPS money at OKC schools but what long lasting affect did that really have? It is not a sustained source of funding that will assist the educators in that system long term. The only way OKC will ever rebuild its school system is to encourage and facilitate the choice of living in downtown and other locations inside the highway loops at least equivalent to enabling the daily escape from downtown. That will increase the property tax base and is the long term solution.

Deannexation? Interesting idea. That would probably help our police, fire, and public works departments more than a lot of other ideas I have heard. There are some benefits to that idea.

This really should not be something that pits suburban vs urban, right vs left, or anything like that. The misrepresentation of people who think the boulevard should be more than an escape route was predictable. This more about what we really want OKC to look like in 20 years. The suburbs will still be there, but for our city to thrive we need to take steps now to begin rebuilding the inner core of the city. We can either facilitate the same old "that's the way we have always done it" or we can set the conditions for private redevelopment in a huge area of downtown that was decimated by highway through the middle of town. Cities all over the United States have figured this out and are reaping the benefits of true urban renewal after restoring the public infrastructure that encouraged people to actually live in their city center. By the way - suburbanites also benefit from vibrant downtowns because that is what often makes the difference in deciding where to relocate or start new ventures - remember the reason for the original MAPS?

Finally - what are you talking about me telling you what to do or not do? This is a place to offer ideas and exchange opinions on different topics. Merely stating one's opinion is not telling anyone how to live or demanding compliance with any vision.

Jake
12-23-2012, 04:26 PM
I like reading arguments on this site. It's like I'm in high school again.

Popsy
12-23-2012, 05:06 PM
Cap'n dave

I think I will just make an observation to end the argument that Jake is enjoying so much. That observation consists of my hoping you appreciate that you were not around in the Jim Jones period to enjoy his kool aid parties he had for his followers. Until later.

CaptDave
12-23-2012, 05:17 PM
nm......

LandRunOkie
12-23-2012, 07:44 PM
Some more "urbanist" reading material for Sid et al: Otis White | Scoop.it (http://www.scoop.it/u/otiswhite#curatedTopicsTabSelected) Planetizen (http://www.planetizen.com/)

catcherinthewry
12-23-2012, 08:56 PM
Do you really consider going from 6 lanes to 4 lanes and having to go 25 instead of 35 or 45 a detriment to commuters?

For Chrissakes yes, fewer lanes and a slower speed? Of course that is a detriment. What do you want them to do, exit off of I-40 and walk to work?

CaptDave
12-23-2012, 09:25 PM
For Chrissakes yes, fewer lanes and a slower speed? Of course that is a detriment. What do you want them to do, exit off of I-40 and walk to work?

No - only to drive at a sensible speed in a downtown environment. The difference between 55 mph and 35 mph is about 1 minute 10 seconds in congested traffic conditions.....

Once the eastern and western connections to the new Crosstown are complete, the traffic problems caused by only having two exits disappear. No proponent of a street level reconnection to the existing street network has ever said to not reconnect to Interstate 40 with the two flyovers under construction.

catcherinthewry
12-23-2012, 09:50 PM
No - only to drive at a sensible speed in a downtown environment. The difference between 55 mph and 35 mph is about 1 minute 10 seconds in congested traffic conditions.

You and MCCA7596 must not understand the meaning of the word detriment.


Formal 1 [count] : something that will cause damage or injury to something or someone — usually singular

And you conveniently forgot to include the boulevard going from 6 lanes to 4 lanes which would tack on more time to your scenario. That is called compromising, Something that you are apparently not willing to do. Not everyone wants to live downtown. In fact most people don't and they like to get to work and home as quickly as possible. The city is trying to balance the desires of the commuters and the urbanists.

catch22
12-23-2012, 10:01 PM
You and MCCA7596 must not understand the meaning of the word detriment.


Formal 1 [count] : something that will cause damage or injury to something or someone — usually singular

And you conveniently forgot to include the boulevard going from 6 lanes to 4 lanes which would tack on more time to your scenario. That is called compromising, Something that you are apparently not willing to do. Not everyone wants to live downtown. In fact most people don't and they like to get to work and home as quickly as possible. The city is trying to balance the desires of the commuters and the urbanists.

With I-40 just a few blocks south, there is plenty of capacity that is easily accessible for commuters. We have enough street capacity to support tens of thousands of more vehicles, there is no demand for additional lanes, and the current lanes can easily absorb the capacity of the future. The thing about streets is, no matter how many lanes you have, demand will fill the capacity. You have 6 lanes, the demand, over time will fill the capacity. If you built a 12 lane Blvd, over time demand would fill that capacity.

So, we need to build a street that will have the demand we want it to have. On this date, December 23rd, 2012. There is 0 demand on the Boulevard, not one car uses the Boulevard. The same traffic count was found yesterday and the day before. Also last week, the demand was 0 cars. The cars are using the current grid, and two more entrances to the Interstate system will be constructed in the next several years adding additional capacity and options for vehicular egress/ingress. As soon as you build a lane, cars will fill it. Maybe not overnight, but over a longer term period of time, demand will catch up to the capacity. If we opened the Blvd as proposed tomorrow, we would go from 0 demand, to maybe 8-9k cars a day or more. Overnight. Over the long term, that would grow to 20-35k. If it were 6 lanes, demand would eventually move up to 45-50k cars a day.

We have to build the road to what we want the traffic to be in the future. I'm fine with that being 0. Because we do have a grid that allows plenty of options to get to an interstate or other high capacity roads (Shields!?).

CaptDave
12-23-2012, 10:48 PM
You and MCCA7596 must not understand the meaning of the word detriment.


Formal 1 [count] : something that will cause damage or injury to something or someone — usually singular

And you conveniently forgot to include the boulevard going from 6 lanes to 4 lanes which would tack on more time to your scenario. That is called compromising, Something that you are apparently not willing to do. Not everyone wants to live downtown. In fact most people don't and they like to get to work and home as quickly as possible. The city is trying to balance the desires of the commuters and the urbanists.

I also heard someone ask why should the citizens of Oklahoma City design a road that makes any concession to people who live outside the OKC city limits? I don't think that is realistic any more than designing it exclusively to move the maximum number of cars.

Personally I think the ODOT/Public Works preference is fatally flawed simply because it will channel the majority of traffic onto a single route. It makes more sense to have several different routes to get to destinations downtown AND to get to the interstate on ramps. If you want to create gridlock, channel traffic onto the fewest possible routes. It isn't much different than using choke points for ambushes other times restricted movement is desired in military ops.

I favor the solution that best facilitates economic redevelopment of an area that was decimated by a road designed solely to move traffic out of downtown. Build it so businesses and residences are built downtown, but still offers several routes to get to the interstate. Those routes will merely be 35 mph streets rather than 50+ mph NW Expressway clones.

There is a reason people like to visit cities like Washington DC, Chicago, New York, Paris, etc. It sure as heck isn't to experience driving through at the highest speed possible. Does OKC really want to be "major league" and join the ranks of cities people choose over others to visit? Only a major shift in priorities and attitudes will ever permit us to get there.

1972ford
12-23-2012, 11:19 PM
As of now we have the 235 interstate exits in addition to the pair of I-40 exits a lot of folks also use 44 as well mainly cause the light cycles on the 40 exits suck. That's what is great about the grid its extremely flexible on how it can be utilized

mcca7596
12-24-2012, 10:39 AM
For Chrissakes yes, fewer lanes and a slower speed? Of course that is a detriment. What do you want them to do, exit off of I-40 and walk to work?

When you think of the word "boulevard", do you imagine a road similar to a freeway? Because if so, that is a problem and there is really no compromise to be made when you have your own definition of the word in your mind.

Just the facts
12-24-2012, 10:52 AM
You want to stop this boulevard dead in its tracks? Show people what it will be like with all the intersections removed. A group of people (a large group) needs to string caution tape across all the streets that will be closed by the new boulevard. Do it during morning rush hour all at once (a coordinated demonstration) so people can talk about what a traffic problem it caused while they are at work. A little, maybe a lot, of civil disobedience is in order. After seeing this area in person I would be willing to bury myself in the dirt up to my head in front of a bulldozer to stop it. If you have to be arrested for something it might as well be for this cause.

Just the facts
12-24-2012, 10:57 AM
Maybe a demonstration should be order. How about a march through the area. If 12 Occupy Wall Street protestors can get on the news for 6 months a group of 100 marching through downtown OKC should garner some attention.

CaptDave
12-24-2012, 11:07 AM
You want to stop this boulevard dead in its tracks? Show people what it will be like with all the intersections removed. A group of people (a large group) needs to string caution tape across all the streets that will be closed by the new boulevard. Do it during morning rush hour all at once (a coordinated demonstration) so people can talk about what a traffic problem it caused while they are at work. A little, maybe a lot, of civil disobedience is in order. After seeing this area in person I would be willing to bury myself in the dirt up to my head in front of a bulldozer to stop it. If you have to be arrested for something it might as well be for this cause.

Interesting idea JTF. I have personally watched several councilpersons, engineers, and other "leaders" eyes glaze over whenever you attempt to explain options other than following the same path of the old Crosstown. They are either unwilling or unable to consider anything other than what has been laid in front of them by the "experts". It doesn't take computer simulations or convoluted engineering "studies" to figure out that closing streets as ODOT and Public Works plans to do is what creates the "problem" they are trying to solve. They have never grasped Occam's Razor evidently.

Stew
12-24-2012, 11:15 AM
With I-40 just a few blocks south, there is plenty of capacity that is easily accessible for commuters. We have enough street capacity to support tens of thousands of more vehicles, there is no demand for additional lanes, and the current lanes can easily absorb the capacity of the future. The thing about streets is, no matter how many lanes you have, demand will fill the capacity. You have 6 lanes, the demand, over time will fill the capacity. If you built a 12 lane Blvd, over time demand would fill that capacity.

So, we need to build a street that will have the demand we want it to have. On this date, December 23rd, 2012. There is 0 demand on the Boulevard, not one car uses the Boulevard. The same traffic count was found yesterday and the day before. Also last week, the demand was 0 cars. The cars are using the current grid, and two more entrances to the Interstate system will be constructed in the next several years adding additional capacity and options for vehicular egress/ingress. As soon as you build a lane, cars will fill it. Maybe not overnight, but over a longer term period of time, demand will catch up to the capacity. If we opened the Blvd as proposed tomorrow, we would go from 0 demand, to maybe 8-9k cars a day or more. Overnight. Over the long term, that would grow to 20-35k. If it were 6 lanes, demand would eventually move up to 45-50k cars a day.

We have to build the road to what we want the traffic to be in the future. I'm fine with that being 0. Because we do have a grid that allows plenty of options to get to an interstate or other high capacity roads (Shields!?).

Excellent point. I don't commute to core OKC but I am a frequent visitor and always by car. I never once thought the traffic was unbearable and in fact quite the opposite. Probably because I've dealt with real gridlock in Washington DC, Philadelphia and heck even Dayton Ohio. We are very fortunate in Oklahoma with our relatively flat terrain and few water obstacles that allows a healthy grid system. There are always alternate routes one can take whether you're heading to downtown or to Edmond or Norman or Shawnee or El Reno or any points in between. You do not have that luxury in many other cities.

I don't know squat about city planning or traffic engineering. I freely admit my opinion is bourn of ignorance but for the life of me I cannot see the city's point on this one and I have tried. I don't want compromise on the boulevard. Either make it the best possible solution for commuters or return it back to the norm. An in-between solution to appease both sides will only result in a half ass result that doesn't serve anybody's interests well. Does anybody want that?

Just the facts
12-24-2012, 11:23 AM
Engineers say traffic is like a fluid. It isn't. It is like a gas. It will expand to fill capacity by either increasing the number of cars or by increasing the average speed. Either way, pressure goes up.

CaptDave
12-24-2012, 11:28 AM
Has anyone else noticed when in places such as Washington DC there is traffic "gridlock", the highways are the roads at a standstill while the surrounding streets are flowing just fine usually? If people perceive there only being one way to get their destination that is where they go and volume inevitably overcomes capacity. But if there are several routes to get to a given location, there is rarely a time that traffic is not moving pretty efficiently.

Just the facts
12-24-2012, 12:10 PM
I know exactly what you are saying CaptDave. While working in Philly I had a birds-eye view of I-76 and many city streets. The freeway with no stop lights had the worst traffic. City streets were moving just fine and never stacked up at lights. The traffic lights in Central City Philly only stay green for 20 seconds at a time.

RadicalModerate
12-24-2012, 01:48 PM
When you think of the word "boulevard", do you imagine a road similar to a freeway? Because if so, that is a problem and there is really no compromise to be made when you have your own definition of the word in your mind.

Boulevard (to me): On grade, leasurely pace, scenic, perfect balance of function and form. With curves. (e.g. Classen . . . Grand =)
Perhaps the proposed traffic blocking demonstration would be enhanced by brave folks holding out boots to be filled for the cause?

CuatrodeMayo
12-24-2012, 01:53 PM
You want to stop this boulevard dead in its tracks? Show people what it will be like with all the intersections removed. A group of people (a large group) needs to string caution tape across all the streets that will be closed by the new boulevard. Do it during morning rush hour all at once (a coordinated demonstration) so people can talk about what a traffic problem it caused while they are at work. A little, maybe a lot, of civil disobedience is in order. After seeing this area in person I would be willing to bury myself in the dirt up to my head in front of a bulldozer to stop it. If you have to be arrested for something it might as well be for this cause.

This is crazy, but at this point, it may take something this extreme. It's unfortunate that we are talking about such drastic measures to get our leaders to listen.

Plutonic Panda
12-24-2012, 02:06 PM
You know to be honest I think that a curved road looks cooler and is nicer looking. Having said that I understand sticking to the grid would be the best option for development, but I think as long as we make sure it is at grade it will be fine. L.A. has curved roads all over the place and has amazing development and so does Dallas. I know they're bigger cities but still. Me I like the proposed route of the boulevard. TBH his might make me unpopular but I think a this road should be a 25MPH, two lane road w/parallel parking, big center median with a street car, a light rail track on the side of the road for convention center(possibly an elevated light rail), wide sidewalks with "interactive building fronting the boulevard, a massive roundabout, bike lanes, and maybe a walking trail in the median next to the streetcar... This road does not need to be made to handle large traffic amounts.. It needs to made to handle large scale quality developments and entice them to this area... I really don't care whether or not it is on a grid but that is just me.

catch22
12-24-2012, 02:28 PM
For reference, anyone who says we do not have ample interstate access downtown has not looked at a map.

Green is off ramp (traffic flowing into downtown).
Red is on ramp (traffic flowing out of downtown).

http://gyazo.com/21e9fcb46ee106d270def03c9e7a02c9.png?1356380891

CuatrodeMayo
12-24-2012, 03:47 PM
Some food for thought on this Christmas Eve: Here is an illustration of how the recommended Alternative A will affect the existing street system:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/CuatrodeMayo/AlternateAstreetclosings_zpse8702e34.jpg

Plutonic Panda
12-24-2012, 04:33 PM
I know a lot would be affected, but I also think curvy streets just look and "feel" cooler and more attractive. Just a personal preference.

catch22
12-24-2012, 04:47 PM
I know a lot would be affected, but I also think curvy streets just look and "feel" cooler and more attractive. Just a personal preference.

I respect your opinion, however would like to note curved streets look excellent on paper and from the air. They just do not function well with pedestrian movement. Grids move both people and traffic effectively.

Plutonic Panda
12-24-2012, 04:58 PM
I respect your opinion, however would like to note curved streets look excellent on paper and from the air. They just do not function well with pedestrian movement. Grids move both people and traffic effectively.I completely understand what you're saying and you're right. Also, being so close to Downtown is another factor I just thought of. I've never really seen any downtown areas with curvy streets.

Just the facts
12-24-2012, 07:01 PM
Boulevard (to me): On grade, leasurely pace, scenic, perfect balance of function and form. With curves. (e.g. Classen . . . Grand =)
Perhaps the proposed traffic blocking demonstration would be enhanced by brave folks holding out boots to be filled for the cause?

You are thinking of a Parkway. I can understand the confusion though. We live in an age where Town Center is a suburban shopping center. We lost the language a long time ago. Darn marketing people.

CaptDave
12-24-2012, 07:50 PM
Some food for thought on this Christmas Eve: Here is an illustration of how the recommended Alternative A will affect the existing street system:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/CuatrodeMayo/AlternateAstreetclosings_zpse8702e34.jpg

So Plan 'A' cuts off 6 routes in order to build 1? What is more likely to move traffic better - 6 routes or 1? Hmmmmm........

Just the facts
12-24-2012, 07:54 PM
CaptDave - now you know why ODOT insists on an overpass at Western. They know all the traffic will have to funnel to that location and if they put in a light it will be a cluster ****.

CaptDave
12-24-2012, 07:57 PM
True JTF. How anyone can honestly think this is the best plan for OKC is beyond me. The people that bought the properties adjacent to the Central Park are going to do just fine regardless if there is more area in the Farmer's Market area to be redeveloped......

Plutonic Panda
12-24-2012, 08:12 PM
Hey if you guys go down for a protest count me in!!!! I will support a grid system. I think this city needs voice/s to be heard. :)

catch22
12-24-2012, 08:34 PM
Put in a request to close those streets for an event. Then use the city's reasoning for denying the application temporarily closing those streets against ODOT and the traffic engineering department.

CaptDave
12-24-2012, 08:50 PM
Put in a request to close those streets for an event. Then use the city's reasoning for denying the application temporarily closing those streets against ODOT and the traffic engineering department.

That's brilliant!

Fantastic
12-25-2012, 01:18 PM
Hey if you guys go down for a protest count me in!!!! I will support a grid system. I think this city needs voice/s to be heard. :)

agreed!!!

Larry OKC
12-26-2012, 12:58 PM
So Plan 'A' cuts off 6 routes in order to build 1? What is more likely to move traffic better - 6 routes or 1? Hmmmmm........

Very similar with the relocated I-40. Reportedly we went from 6 access points down to 2...

UnFrSaKn
12-28-2012, 04:46 PM
http://i.imgur.com/AfdCC.jpg
Future Boulevard intersection?

OKCisOK4me
12-28-2012, 09:14 PM
Omg. .. Lets not confuse already stupid Oklahomans as denoted by ODOT officials lol

Just the facts
12-29-2012, 11:03 AM
While funny, that is one of the safest traffic circles in the UK. It is called the Swindon Magic Roundabout. It can move a lot of cars at slow speeds but not pedestrian friendly. If ODOT tried to build that they would add fly-overs.

OKCisOK4me
12-29-2012, 11:25 AM
While funny, that is one of the safest traffic circles in the UK. It is called the Swindon Magic Roundabout. It can move a lot of cars at slow speeds but not pedestrian friendly. If ODOT tried to build that they would add fly-overs.

...and a Starbucks drive thru...

CaptDave
01-07-2013, 08:46 PM
Downtown OKC boulevard completion won't be until 2016 | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/downtown-okc-boulevard-completion-wont-be-until-2016/article/3743995)

Anyone who cared enough to protest the original design will be "blamed" for the delay. The statements from ODOT in this article were pretty reasonable I must admit.

Just the facts
01-07-2013, 08:53 PM
I hope they never build it, so a 2 year delay is a good start for me.

jn1780
01-07-2013, 08:56 PM
Funny, I don't see any work on the east end and there hasn't been any delays or meetings about that end.

CaptDave
01-07-2013, 09:00 PM
I hope they never build it, so a 2 year delay is a good start for me.

I don't want them to build "IT". I do want them to reconnect the street network to I40 east of Bricktown and west of the Farmer's Market though. I cannot fathom the reason behind the resistance to this simplest of designs that takes advantage of one of OKC's best features.

ThomPaine
01-07-2013, 09:21 PM
I don't want them to build "IT". I do want them to reconnect the street network to I40 east of Bricktown and west of the Farmer's Market though. I cannot fathom the reason behind the resistance to this simplest of designs that takes advantage of one of OKC's best features.

$$$$
Saving it is not a priority. If $XXX gets allocated, then, by-God, we need to spend $XXX or more, not $XX or less. Contractors, engineers, laborers, etc., all make more $$$ with the bigger, more expensive project.

Or I could be wrong! :D

ljbab728
01-07-2013, 11:59 PM
Some new comments by Steve in his blog.

Boulevard Options | OKC Central (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2013/01/07/boulevard-options/)

And Zeke Campfield's article about Tuesday's City Council meeting where this will be discussed.

Oklahoma City Council set to make decision on boulevard design | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-council-set-to-make-decision-on-boulevard-design/article/3744004)

SoonerBoy18
01-08-2013, 03:30 AM
Its been almost a month, have they decided which design to go with?

Plutonic Panda
01-08-2013, 03:42 AM
So this gives us more time to organize such an event like getting with the city somehow and blocking off all the streets that would have to be closed if this new boulevard were to be constructed, right? If the FBB could organize this, even for just 24hours...I would be more than willing to come participate, for the entire 24hours. Would the city let that happen?

catch22
01-08-2013, 03:57 AM
So this gives us more time to organize such an event like getting with the city somehow and blocking off all the streets that would have to be closed if this new boulevard were to be constructed, right? If the FBB could organize this, even for just 24hours...I would be more than willing to come participate, for the entire 24hours. Would the city let that happen?

I don't think that's going to happen... I don't think anyone was too serious about that. Was more hyperbole.

Tomorrow (well later this morning) the city will vote to approve Option A as the city's preferred alternative. From there, ODOT will approve Option A as the state's preferred alternative. ODOT will then send the proposal to the Federal Highway Administration, who is funding the project, for final approval. As far as the local governments are concerned, Option A is set in stone if the Council approves it later this morning (which they are going to do). Ultimately, the Federal Highway Administration has final authority to approve or reject the proposal.

Plutonic Panda
01-08-2013, 04:25 AM
I don't think that's going to happen... I don't think anyone was too serious about that. Was more hyperbole.

Tomorrow (well later this morning) the city will vote to approve Option A as the city's preferred alternative. From there, ODOT will approve Option A as the state's preferred alternative. ODOT will then send the proposal to the Federal Highway Administration, who is funding the project, for final approval. As far as the local governments are concerned, Option A is set in stone if the Council approves it later this morning (which they are going to do). Ultimately, the Federal Highway Administration has final authority to approve or reject the proposal.Well maybe not close them off, more going out there and alerting people which roads might be closed.

dankrutka
01-08-2013, 09:34 AM
Why does no one seem to care about how crappy the boulevard is turning out? I'm surprised by the lack of outrage or activism right now. What am I missing?

s00nr1
01-08-2013, 10:44 AM
I'm watching the live stream right now and am just too disappointed in this whole thing to even put it into words. The lack of forward-thinking when it comes to urban planning blows my mind.

Just the facts
01-08-2013, 10:49 AM
I-40 was an elevated psychological barrier (the grid still existed under it) that devastated this part of downtown for 50 years. The boulevard is an actual physical barrier on the ground and the grid will be broken. The boulevard actually makes things worse.

BoulderSooner
01-08-2013, 10:58 AM
I-40 was an elevated psychological barrier (the grid still existed under it) that devastated this part of downtown for 50 years. The boulevard is an actual physical barrier on the ground and the grid will be broken. The boulevard actually makes things worse.

this is not close to the truth

s00nr1
01-08-2013, 11:00 AM
Well according to Gary Marrs, the only reason the blvd should exist is to provide egress from I40 for interstate traffic. Yes, by all means let's encourage bringing all the 18-wheelers down off the interstate into downtown.

CuatrodeMayo
01-08-2013, 11:06 AM
this is not close to the truth
Care to explain?

s00nr1
01-08-2013, 11:39 AM
It's just unfortunate after listening to that entire discussion live realizing that many of our city leaders have no interest in furthering urban development downtown. They are still trapped in suburban thinking even when there is obviously a push away from it occurring downtown. The whole boulevard debate has brought that to the forefront.

Larry OKC
01-08-2013, 11:42 AM
s00nr1: and the disconnect from what Council has expressed publicly they are trying to do with the various MAPS, project 180, Core to Shore etc....getting folks to not only work & play downtown, but live downtown as well..so there isn't near the need to get those folks out of downtown like there used to be.

OKCTalker
01-08-2013, 11:52 AM
I was talking with some old-timers recently, discussing how Patience Latting shook up the cronyism and old boy system that prevailed downtown before her arrival. They all agreed that it has returned, and needs to be changed.

The election filing period will open later this month for Wards 1 (Marrs), 3 (McAtee), 4 (White) and 7 (Kelly).